Now at this point in the article a lot of people are going to be ready to fire off some nasty comments about my male chauvinism.
Don't.
All I'm saying is that men and women are different and when we hire for jobs those differences should be taken into consideration, especially in dangerous jobs like those I described above. If a woman wants to be a fireman that's great, as long as she can past the exact same tests and examinations that the men do. If the job you want requires you to be able to complete 30 pushups then you'd better be able to do those 30 pushups. If you can't, find another job.
Thinking that we can make things equal by lowering the bar for a certain group of people just doesn't make sense. Equality isn't reached by manipulating standards to purposely create diversity. Equality is reached by setting standards and then making sure those standards are applied equally to everybody. A woman shouldn't get a job just because she is a woman no more than a man should get a job just because he is male.
Affirmative action is the same way. Why should anyone be given an advantage based on anything other than their ability to perform a job?
I'm all for things being equal, we just have to be sure and look at equality from the right angle.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - jadester
here here!
2 - duane
Uh oh. Battlestations! Person the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!
You've identified a few job positions for which men are generally better qualified, owing to certain superior physical traits. Just to fend off any potential charges of male chauvinism, can you name a few jobs (paying jobs -- legal paying jobs) for which women are generally better qualified?
3 - Joe
Wetnurse?
4 - Natalie Davis
I think the issue isn't so much whether particular jobs are better suited to people of certain genders. The issue is that when people are hired, they should be qualified, and the qualifications should only reflect what actually is required to do the job in question. It isn't chauvanism to refuse a woman a firefighter's job if she can't do the lifting involved. At the same time, the lifting requirement should not be set unreasonably high in a specific effort to exclude women.
As for the prom-king situation being unfair, no, it isn't. If a girl could run for king (and win), any boy who wanted to try to be prom queen could have thrown his crown into that ring.
Wetnurse? Not necessarily. I didn't breastfeed my kids, and the spouse was equally qualified to prepare and feed them their bottles of formula.
5 - Dawn
Wetnurse is defined as a stand-in for breastfeeding when the mother doesn't or can't. It can not be manned (so to speak) by a MAN, unless of course he has had some serious gender altering surgery.
But I understand your point Natalie!
6 - Natalie Davis
Ah, well this woman was *not* qualified to be a wetnurse, which means SU and I were equally unqualified for the job. :)
7 - Mark Saleski
Why should anyone be given an advantage based on anything other than their ability to perform a job?
exactly. i just wonder how many people have uttered this statement knowing full well that they made it into college because mommy or daddy had gone there.
8 - Craig Lyndall
This was big news in sports this year with Annika Sorenstam playing on the men's tour for a single tournament. I heard about some guy who was trying to make a point by trying to join the women's tour.
A woman trying to compete in the PGA is compelling, but a man trying to compete in LPGA isn't compelling. There are differences in our genders and everyone knows it.
I haven't heard too many people saying that women should be allowed to do a job they are not physically qualified for. The main thing is that equal jobs by people of different genders need to be paid the same. This is should apply to all jobs and in many cases it still doesn't.
The only thing that would be chauvinistic about the fire-person scenario would be if a woman was qualified for the job and got paid less than her male counterparts because she is a woman.
9 - rave
Who's kidding who? There is a difference. Women's shite don't stink.
10 - Mac Diva
In America in 2003 (as opposed to the strange, bigotry and ignorance ridden world of Robbie Port) nothing could be more inaccurate than to say localities set the rules of hiring public employees such as firefighters. There are federal laws against discrimination, for Chrissakes. Any employer who tried the evasions of the law he suggests would be smacked with fines and lawsuits so quickly the ink would hardly be dry on the papers.
Furthermore, the 'hose is too heavy for women' pretext has long been disposed of. Handling heavy objects is either automated or done by more than one person. The genders of the persons involved don't matter. One tell-tale sign claims such as these are pretexts is that relatively small men would be no more able to carry out the tasks than the average-sized woman.
There aren't any breastfeeding cases I'm aware of, but men can breastfeed. Would-be women sometimes increase their estrogen level to the point of growing breast and lactating.
Title VII has been around so long I tend to take it for granted 'everyone knows' that the kind of discrimination Port and Craig Lyndall support is illegal. Perhaps I need to write a blog entry about it. That is a major problem with the blogosphere: The Ports spout so much inaccurate information that the minority of smart, responsible bloggers are virtually forced to clean up after them.
11 - Al Barger
Ah, now this is the Diva I know and love. An adamant (unsubstantiated) insistence on what the LAW is (coupled with the de rigeur charges of "bigotry") trumps any silly issues of empirical reality. If she can find some judge to sign an order suspending the law of gravity, then she'd expect things to just start floating freely in space because THAT'S THE LAW!!!!!!
Most obviously she insists that physical strength is simply not a real, legitimate practical issue in performing the job of being a fireman.
Not to put too fine a point on it, this simply doesn't jibe with Objective Reality. A fireman is liable to need to throw some old person over their shoulder and carry them down stairs or even down a ladder. A 100 pound woman simply can't goddam do the job.
As to this one: One tell-tale sign claims such as these are pretexts is that relatively small men would be no more able to carry out the tasks than the average-sized woman. Right, and that man would flunk the physical tests, and not get hired either.
I got a lot of love for our Diva- she's got a lot of heart. However, she's just plain damn silly saying that Mr. Port is a "bigot" for noting that most women are simply not fit for the most physically rigorous jobs. That's not a subjective opinion, either enlightened or bigoted- merely a recognition of reality.
The "bigot" that Diva should be taking up these issues with is God. It was he/she/it that made men and women different and in some ways clearly unequal.
Hey, don't shoot Robbie- he's just the messenger.
12 - Chris Arabia
one related point--many one person jobs have been turned into two person jobs to accomodate physically weaker people. the military has done this as well. but why be surprised that a person who lives in a perverse fantasy world has troubling recognizing the laws of reality.
go ahead now, accuse me of buying my wife...
13 - BB
There truly are genuine bigots and racists out there, but I am weary of people who throw out the 'b' and 'r' words every time somebody disagrees with the latest modus operandi of political correctness. Now that blogs are becoming more prevalent I hope to see more libel law suits that will make those who think it is their God-given right to promote self-serving smear campaigns think twice before publishing.
14 - Eric Olsen
BB, in the good old U.S. of A., it's practically impossible to prove libel other than in the most outrageous and egregious cases.
15 - BB
The difficulty of proving one's case is not the issue (at least from my perspective). I am a retired Litigator (now reformed Mediator) but I hope that I have made my point with respect to those who think it is their right to conduct self-righteous smear campaigns.
16 - Natalie Davis
I suspect MD is well acquainted with questions of law and how far she can go in expressing what is obviously her opinion.
17 - BB
It would be well advised to learn to express one's opinion without resorting to childish name calling or malice.
18 - Mac Diva
Thanks, Nat.
It reassures me when bloggers actually know what they are talking about. I would hate to think the main legacy of weblogs will be spreading stupidity all over the Web, but it might. (Not that there wasn't plenty of stupidity on the Web before blogs arrived.)
Bumble Brain (BB) I believe you are a lawyer to the same extent I believe you can sprout wings and fly. Now go ahead. Sue me for saying that. LOL!
19 - Natalie Davis
That said, I do have to agree with BB about namecalling. But free speech is exactly that, and people have the right to express their opinions.
20 - BB
It has been my experience those who are quick to point the finger are convicted by their own hypocrisy. Maligning someone and then qualifying your statement with an "LOL" doesn't quite cut it. But it does speak volumes as to your maturity. No, I will allow myself to be baited and lower myself to your level madam MD, but if it is your intent to question my voracity then feel free to try me on for size.
21 - Mac Diva
Not only do I consider BB worthy of the nickname Bumble Brain, after viewing his photo, in my opinion, he looks like an utter fool. (Calling a lawyer, yet, BB?)
(Before this is over I believe a certain person may grasp that opinion, no matter how much he dislikes it is not libelous, Natalie.)
22 - BB
One of the wonderful things about technology is there is always a record. Obviously I'm dealing with a child here and you didn't get the message. I can deduce only one thing out of all this nonsense. You don't discriminate - you just hate everybody equally :)
23 - BB
And by the way. I would love to see your picture MD. I checked your website but unfortunately it's down. So how about?
24 - BB
I should also mention that my picture is meant to be a cartoon-like image so if you found it humorous then it met its objective. :)
25 - Mac Diva
Boy, I've really pushed your buttons, haven't I?