There are circumstances when neutrality is wise; neutrality in the face of outrageous human rights violations can be unwise.
Corporations, in my view, have one basic obligation, and it is to those who invested money in them. That obligation, in most circumstances, is to make money for their investors — not to promote freedom and not to ensure the well being and comfort of corporate employees, except as doing so increases their earnings. It is for those who invested in the corporation to decide whether and how to use their own resources to support worthy causes. A business corporation has no mandate to diminish the gains of its investors by using what should be their money to support what its officers and directors consider to be worthy causes.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Robert M. Barga
@21
the problem is, it acutally will harm the Iranians more than it helps them
27 - Dan(Miller)
Ruvy,
I agree that the United States Government is trying too hard to mold Israel to fits its own agenda. The demands it is making, evidently in the hope that forcing Israel to meet them will bring the blessings of peace to the region, are not only misguided, they are an unwholesome intrusion on the right of the Israelis to control their country's destiny. I think I have made my position reasonably clear elsewhere. In a clumsy way, the United States Government appears to have taken sides with the Palestinians and their supporters. I think that is the wrong side to favor.
A U.S. State Department spokesman told reporters on Monday that opposition to building for Jews in Judea and Samaria includes established Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem, where thousands of housing units are under construction.
Properly, in my view, Israel seems to be pursuing her own interests rather than those of the United States Government. It seems that most Israelis agree that the Israeli Government should resist U.S. pressures, and Israel does not appear to be using the sort of repressive tactics against her own people that the Iranian Government is using against its people. Nor, for that matter, does Israel appear to be using Iranian style tactics even against the Palestinians who have daily bombed Israel and sent suicide bombers -- some of them young children -- to attack her.
The Governmental actions I advocate in the present article do have at least some relationship to what the United States is doing vis a vis Israel: I would like to see the United States Government take sides with the Iranian protesters by encouraging them to keep up the pressure and by announcing that it is the policy of the United States to support those in Iran who are being persecuted for seeking some modicum of democracy. President Obama has not yet done that. He has, properly if belatedly, chastised the Iranian Government for its brutal repressions, but that is not the same as taking sides with the protesters. Rather a squishy sort of neutrality, it is neutrality nonetheless.
Some contend that mere words ring hollow, and that the United States Government should not utter them unless it is prepared to back them up with -- something. I disagree. Beyond words there is now very little other than force, probably military. If I thought that the use of force would work in the present context, if the United States Government were not heavily engaged militarily elsewhere, and if it did not seem likely that it may soon be heavily engaged should the North Koreans venture south, I might in some circumstances advocate it. However, that would appear to be, and might well actually be, an effort by the United States Government to take over the country of Iran. I do not think that the Government of the United States should do that, and I do not think that the protesters would like or be encouraged by it. Far from threatening to back up its words with force, I think the United States Government should expressly disavow any such intention while holding out a promise of diplomatic and other support should they succeed.
There are lots of very repressive governments, of which Venezuela is one of the most notable and vocal. However, the time does not appear ripe to take sides strongly with those who oppose the increasing repression in Venezuela. Should there be protests in Venezuela comparable to those now in Iran, that might be the time to take sides, strongly, with the protesters and against the Venezuelan Government, along the lines I think proper in Iran. Now is not the time.
Dan(Miller)
28 - Glenn Contrarian
Dan -
Do you think we might remember if a foreign power had engineered a coup in America less than sixty years ago?
That's what we did in Iran, when we engineered a coup against a democratically-elected government and installed the more American-friendly Shah.
Yes, we'd remember - and I assure you the Iranians remember, and any time we interfere even with only words, the people there will remember what we did.
All our interference, no matter how well-intentioned, only strengthens those who are against America.
It's said that people follow a bully because they have to, but people follow a leader because they WANT to. The more we act with constraint, with diplomatic respect for other nations, even when we have the capability to force our will upon those nations unless we have no choice otherwise, the more we are respected by the people of the world in general.
One measure of a man is not only in how he uses power, but in how he knows when NOT to use his power.
29 - Cindy
Dan(Miller),
I had been eagerly awaiting your answer to Irene's comment on this thread. But, you may have missed her question. I think it's relevant.
#59-Irene Wagner Jun 22, 2009 at 9:16 am:
"Now I'd be interested in hearing what Dan (Miller) has to say about US funding of Jundullah. How would a verbal show of support for the Iranian people by President Obama (who has not made arrangements to discontinue the support authorized by former President GW Bush) be consistent?"
Here is the article Irene posted in comment 29 on page two. She verified some information in comment 33 on page two, as well.
30 - Dan(Miller)
Glen, back during the Revolutionary War, France was one of the few countries to provide overt support to the colonies. Although France tends to be rather mercurial, I have a sense that her support then is still appreciated even now.
The United States has made some real blunders, some well intentioned and some probably not. I have no wish for her to blunder now. I recognize that what the United States Government should and should not do present delicate questions. These clearly involve the U.S. efforts diplomatically to dissuade Iran from using nuclear weapons and supporting terrorism in Israel and elsewhere. If I thought that remaining sorta kinda maybe neutral, as President Obama has thus far done, would materially assist the peace process, I might agree with his approach. I don't think it will help, and am concerned that it will probably be counterproductive. I do think that Iran, under a new and probably more democratic government, is more likely to be amenable to peace. I find it difficult to imagine that the Iranians now protesting their government's repressions would be enthusiastic about going to war because the ruling theocracy says to; they have nothing to gain and much to lose. If a new Iranian Government, chosen in a reasonably free election, turns out to be no better than the current government, that will be very unfortunate. However, the recent use of modern communications technology by the protesters, and the draconian but less than completely successful efforts of the Iranian Government to make them stop, suggests that the nascent openness of Iranian society will be increasingly difficult to repress; the genie is out of the bottle and probably can't be stuffed back in.
Be that as it may, as between the current theocratic Government waging a perhaps nuclear war, and a more democratic and less theocratic Government doing so, I still think that a new government, more responsive to the Iranian people than to her clerics, would be better.
Dan(Miller)
31 - roger nowosielski
"Be that as it may, as between the current theocratic Government waging a perhaps nuclear war, and a more democratic and less theocratic Government doing so, I still think that a new government, more responsive to the Iranian people than to her clerics, would be better."
I don't believe there has ever been any disagreement about that.
32 - zingzing
roger: "But we're not neutral with respect to Iran, zing."
i know. that's the point. everyone knows where we stand, so we don't need our president to shout empty words at them. our government's point of view is unwelcome all over the middle east. we should stand back and watch, at least as long as things are going the way they are.
unfortunately, that means the deaths of protesters. who knows how bad it really is... people shouldn't have to die for this, but if that's what it takes to get the people angry enough to take down their government... ugh.
anyway, the main point of my argument, as stated above, is "any action we would take would only slow the progress by giving the leaders of iran a common enemy in the u.s.. right now, they are doing a better job at bringing democracy to iran than we ever could."
33 - Dan(Miller)
Cindy, I have no personal knowledge about the activities of Jundallah, and it is possible that every group in and around Iran with the exception of the Iranian Government is composed entirely of wicked religious fanatics whose intentions are very destructive and very despicable. It is also possible that the claims of the Iranian Government and of Press TV about Jundallah are completely accurate; perhaps the fact that Press TV characterizes itself as "the first Iranian international news network, broadcasting in English on a round-the-clock basis" suggests no valid reason to disregard any of its claims. It is also possible that all claims made by the North Korean Government are equally factual, and that all contrary claims are intentionally fallacious. Ditto the claims of the Venezuelan Government. Perhaps the United States, in concert with the Bohemian Grove organization, is now continuing the long sought domination of the entire world. Perhaps President Obama is complicit in these nefarious activities because he really is a somewhat secular Muslim. Somehow, I doubt these things.
However, even assuming that Jundallah has long been targeting the Iranian Government with U.S. support and blessings, I fail to see any reason to conclude that the people in Iran now protesting what happened during the recent election are under the control of Jundallah, the United States Government or, for that matter, organizers of the United States tea parties. And that, to me, is the important thing. Should you have credible and verifiable information to suggest such control, I hope that you will share it with us all. In the meantime, I have seen too much violent repression of the protesters in Iran to find anything really nice to say about the current Iranian Government.
Dan(Miller)
34 - roger nowosielski
I entirely agree, zing, and I stated as much in my comments.
My suspicion is that one reason why the conservatives keep on harping on this issue is in order to come across as "being strong on moral values" whereas the truth of matter is that they are impoverished; or alternatively, in order to ease their conscience.
35 - Silas Kain
To hell with Congress and their message to Iran. Barack Obama is right to remain as neutral as possible. While there are possible human rights violations, the bottom line is that it is up to the people of Iran to chart their own destiny.
Our government will serve us best by being cautious. We've spent too much time interfering in the affairs of other countries. We have mor eimportant things to worry about, i.e. health care, campaign finance reform and the expulsion of every Far Right member of Republican Party. The way I see it the current regime in Iran and people like Mark Sanford, Mitt Romney and John Ensign have more in common with each other than they do with the rank and file citizenry of both countries.
36 - Dan(Miller)
Roger, while I appreciate your splendid efforts to analyze the motives of all "conservatives," after dumping all of us in the same morally impoverished kettle, I hope there will be no charge for your services. I don't think my medical insurance company pays for psychiatric help; perhaps it should.
Dan(Miller)
37 - Silas Kain
To hell with Congress and their message to Iran. Barack Obama is right to remain as neutral as possible. While there are possible human rights violations, the bottom line is that it is up to the people of Iran to chart their own destiny.
Our government will serve us best by being cautious. We've spent too much time interfering in the affairs of other countries. We have mor eimportant things to worry about, i.e. health care, campaign finance reform and the expulsion of every Far Right member of Republican Party. The way I see it the current regime in Iran and people like Mark Sanford, Mitt Romney and John Ensign have more in common with each other than they do with the rank and file citizenry of both countries.
38 - roger nowosielski
For those who continue to be so keen on the benefits of US intervention, just another little tidbit from a war that has no end.
How long has it been now - eight years and counting? We're sure good at helping those we consider our friends. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
39 - zingzing
well, dan, when are conservatives going to learn to leave the middle east alone? i read your article, but i'm still flabbergasted that you would want to stick your nose in that mess AGAIN. isn't iraq enough? isn't afghanistan enough? isn't israel vs. palestine ("the never-ending story") enough? we should not be fucking with them, especially when things are going our way without unnecessary tomfoolery.
besides, we have other problems.
40 - roger nowosielski
No charge, Dan. It's just how I see it when folks like yourself are becoming so gung-hoe and take the high ground, especially when it's done so as part of critiquing the party in power. Yes, it's circumstantial but suspect nonetheless.
41 - Dan(Miller)
I have been informed that this travesty was initiated by the U.S. Government, with the help of some Bush holdovers still lurking at the CIA. As soon as I have verified my sources, I shall probably write about it, obviously from a "conservative" perspective.
Dan(Miller)
42 - roger nowosielski
But zing. It should be obvious what Dan and cohorts would want to stick their nose in the Middle East. Don't forget that we're into nation-building. That's why none had any problem with unlawful invasion of Iraq and still support that venture with all their heart and soul. It's the American way to spread freedom and democracy worldwide, fuck the domestic front.
And so, they'll fight you on universal healthcare tooth and nail while with the same forked tongue espouse the values of liberty in foreign lands - because it'll cost them nothing to sound so high-minded and noble.
Again, talk is cheap.
43 - Cindy
Dan(Miller),
If I may recommend a rejoinder on par, do you know the one that goes, "I'm rubber, you're glue. Everything you say to me bounces off me and sticks to you."?
44 - roger nowosielski
Concerning Mark Sanford, that paragon of the Republican virtue, shedding crocodile tears.
45 - zingzing
ahh, fuck it, conservative or liberal, the us just beat world #1 spain 2-0 to move onto the final. what a day to be american.
46 - Silas Kain
The whole thing is a joke, Roger. Personally, I'm glad that Mark Sanford even had a sex drive. I want our leaders to have an aura of pheromones. It makes them human.
I really wish that the closet Republicans would come out of the woodwork. The Party of Lincoln has been stolen by a Far Right group who are no different in thought processes and tactics than the so-called enlightened council of Mullahs in Iran. And, the ONLY difference between the Taliban and the Far Right is that the Taliban are not driven by greed.
Obama should stay the course. And the main stream media needs to start reporting facts instead of adding drama to Obama's statements yesterday. Everything Obama has said with regard to Iran in the last two weeks has been a consistent, steady message. Unfortunately, steady and sure don't sell commercials on cable news. Mark Sanford had an affair with a married woman from Argentina with two kids. Big deal. News reporters are supposed to be JOURNALISTS, not writers for the Lifetime Network.
47 - roger nowosielski
Did you see the match?
48 - roger nowosielski
My beef with Sanford is not over sex but his racist remarks. I'm still curious though about your take on the Republican party being financed by the Religious Right. If that's the case and if that's what drives the present ideology, how do you envisage the breaking of the pattern?
Polarization is a natural phenomenon in these times. If the Reps move away from their power base, what else have they got?
49 - Dan(Miller)
The stories about Governor Mark Sanford are inaccurate. In reality, he was in Argentina covertly helping the Jundallah to organize violent protests against the Argentinian Government, in preparation for an armed U.S. invasion of the country. Meetings, previously scheduled with the Jundallah along the Appalachian Trail, had to be abandoned because the CIA had discovered the plot and expressed concern that the news might be leaked to the New York Times. Governor Sanford had to make arrangements with the Jundallah because John Edwards failed in his secret mission last year. The mistress angle is just a transparent cover up; I wouldn't be surprised if former Vice President Cheney put Sanford to it. That's the sort of devious thing all Republican "conservatives" do, don't ya know.
Please do not pass this news along; it might mean the failure of Sanford's mission, and make it necessary for former President Clinton to try.
Dan(Miller)
50 - Cindy
US citizens' taxes are funding murder worldwide. It take 36 hours of pressure from Twitter users to get CNN to cover Iran ... yet Sanford's affair story got instant coverage everywhere.
51 - zingzing
roger--yep. spain probably deserved to win, but as soon as they got into america's box, it became lemming ball with 9 or 10 us defenders crowding around. the us scored on their only 2 on-goal shots. so there was some luck involved. still, a win is a win is a win. especially against the #1 team in the world. huzzah!
52 - Silas Kain
Roger, I honestly believe that there is a tide of young Republicans ready to start the GOP revolution. Somehow we lost sight of the fact that gay marriage, environmental protection,quality education and business regulation are decidedly conservative values.
If enough Center-Right people get involved, the GOP could be a different party after next year's convention. Jindal, Palin, Sanford, Ensign... well, all of today's GOP "leaders" have got to go, period. Michael Steele will be out in 2010 and there will be a fight for control of the party. We need more Republicans in the mold of Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon and Everett Dirksen to step up and take back what was ours to begin with. Let all the Far Righters moved to Utah and go to the Tabernacle with their Savior, Mitt Romney. I'm sure there's some MidEast country they would like to claim as their own.
53 - roger nowosielski
But Sanford, according to Dan Miller, was involved in the Jundallah affair (#49), not to mention the urinating monkey business (#41).
54 - Silas Kain
Urinating monkey business? Every time a member of Congress takes a contribution from some corporate political action committee, we get urinated upon.
55 - roger nowosielski
Well, a change of the guard and the New Turks is not a new idea, and so it stands to reason that things may well be brewing.
Perhaps Nalle should be enlisted in the common cause, don't you think?
56 - roger nowosielski
Check it out - #41. It's Miller's next topic. He feels it's one thing he can write competently about, and with a degree of credibility unparalleled.
57 - roger nowosielski
zing,
there's no such thing as "deserving to win" in soccer, and not with 2:0. You're either brilliant against all odds, or just have an off-day. So they had an off-day.
58 - Dan(Miller)
Roger, I am not aware of any credible evidence to support your specious accusation that Governor Sanford has been implicated in the monkey business noted in my Comment #41; I did not suggest that he had been. You must be letting your imagination go wild.
On the other hand, well, . . . . who knows? Maybe Rush Coulter Beck enlisted him; and, of course, Zambia is not all that far from either Iran or Argentina.
Dan(Miller)
59 - roger nowosielski
Yes, I did let my imagination run wild. Just thought it would be fun to connect the dots, between #49 and #41, that is.
60 - Robert M. Barga
Dan, you still are not explaining why you think that the moderates will enjoy US support of the liberals
61 - Robert M. Barga
@42
pet peeve of mine
iraq was not unlawful, Bush had permission from Congress (granted, the WPA is pretty unconstitutional, so he didnt even need permission)
62 - roger nowosielski
well, it was engineered under false pretenses - and that's unlawful in my book.
63 - pablo
I just love the political naivete of so many of the writers and commenters on this site. Case in point, Mir-Hossein Mousavi was the butcher of Beirut. Here is your great hero of this so called CIA revolution folks. Wake up and smell the napalm folks.
Mousavi, Celebrated in Iranian Protests, Was the Butcher of Beirut
64 - Silas Kain
That just proves the point that we need to stay out of the internal political affairs of Iran, Pablo.
65 - Clavos
zing are you talking about some sort of sporting event?
And the Spanish are #1 in it?
Must be bullfighting.
66 - Silas Kain
#50 Cindy. Quite an astute observation, Cindy. The problem is that our media is driven by ratings and commercial revenue. They've lost sight of what their role is in American society. Every day we hear of a newspaper folding. If the Boston Globe dies in this market, we're left with the Boston Herald. And, trust me, the Herald makes the NY Post and Daily News Pulitzer prize winners. A great measure of how we have devolved is USA Today. That's us in a nutshell.
67 - roger nowosielski
USA Today - a magazine, really. Reducing a newspaper service to a TV format. For the illiterate.
68 - roger nowosielski
Cindy is astute in almost every area except when it comes to the subject of anarchism. That's her idée fixe.
69 - Cindy
Roger,
I'm wondering do you have trouble finding hats big enough to fit?
70 - roger nowosielski
I abhor hats of all sorts. Never wore one. They cut off the circulation.
71 - Silas Kain
Cindy, is that a double entendre? Some men tend to buy hats that are much too big and consequently they reproduce.
72 - Cindy
Roger,
An interesting observation of mine is that you dismissed anarchism when you clearly had no idea what it was. (I'm pretty sure you really don't understand yet.)
What does such dismissal suggest? I mean on what basis does one dismiss something one does not even comprehend?
btw, how astute do you think Mark is? Have you any idea yet (it's been more than 6 months) whether he is a Marxist or what he actually believes?
73 - roger nowosielski
I don't believe in those either.
74 - roger nowosielski
Mark is Mark, and with Mark I have a discussion - ongoing one and to be continued.
75 - Cindy
Silas needs to duck. :-)