A small group of Americans to be taught a foreign language as their first language.
While most Americans confess that they do not like the educational system in the US, and an infinite supply of solutions continually are offered by politicians and educators alike, there remains a small group of people that is often overlooked (more on that shortly). The political ramifications of this group may well further define a number of other political issues, ranging from English as an “official” language to the best possible way to facilitate a child’s education.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Silver Surfer
Internet explorer. I don't have no Mozilla. Should I get my computer guy to fix this up? I mean, if we can tear ourselves away from the short soup?
27 - Clavos
Ask him his opinion, but I recommend it, yes.
RE my #25:
I realized you might have gotten the wrong impression:
Ducks are fine, especially the crispy skinned ones; it's just that girls are better conversationalists (some of them, at least) after the sex, y' know?
28 - Silver Surfer
I dunno, Clav. The way things are lately, I reckon I'm way better off with the duck ...
29 - Dr Dreadful
Clavos is right, mate: if there's an alternative to a Microsoft product, use it. IE takes up masses of memory because of the long-winded coding Microsoft insists on using, and is extremely vulnerable to hacking, popups, viruses and other abuse because these wankers know everyone uses it.
A few months ago I installed Internet Explorer 7 on my PC (which is old, creaky and cruisin' for replacement by a Mac), followed by the new version of Firefox. Both browsers have almost exactly the same features. IE took 45 minutes to install. Firefox took 30 seconds.
It's what the colonists here call a "no-brainer"...
30 - Dr Dreadful
Clav, Stan, I actually am very fond of the French. I speak the language pretty well and Paris is one of my top 5 favorite world cities. I get that from my Dad, who was a serious Francophile and would sneak over there any chance he got. He would even wake up to French talk radio in the morning, played at top volume through the whole house because he was a heavy sleeper.
French waiters, though, are not very nice boys. I'll never understand why the Nazis didn't have them all taken outside and shot while they had the chance...!
31 - Paotie
Clavos,
ASL culturally deaf people who oppose those who learn English are jealous of the ability to communicate to the larger world in general. They also tend to promote exclusion, rather than inclusion. In a weird way, if you're culturally deaf, and learn English, your ASL regresses because you end up having to fingerspell whole words and in deaf culture, a person who fingerspells is frowned upon. To sign "ameliorate," for example would be exceedingly difficult to sign in ASL because the word doesn't exist; rather, the CONCEPT has to be explained and the word fingerspelled.
And yes, the word "indoctrination" is the absolute correct word. Too many deaf children are taught that they do not have a disability, let alone a communicational disability, and instead, are taught that they need not learn how to communicate with hearing people.
And, I don't know why so many culturally deaf people don't take up self-interest and learn English or other means of communicating. Perhaps laziness. Perhaps simple ignorance.
Here's a story:
One day, a dentist was surprised when his receptionist informed him there was a deaf couple in his office. After some difficulties, the dentist and receptionist communicated to the deaf couple that an interpreter would be located and hired for a future dental appointment (a routine dental exam).
The day of the dental appointment arrived and the deaf couple were examined - with an interpreter present - for a period of about 20 minutes. The deaf couple were happy with the dentist and left.
The next day, another deaf couple arrived at the same dentist's office. When the dentist was informed of this, he told the receptionist to turn the deaf couple away because he could not afford an interpreter (on the east coast, interpreters can charge $240/hour, with 2-hour minimum charge, which is the norm for interpreters - in this case $480) for a dental exam that lasted less than 20 minutes.(I'm not sure about your area, but dental exams typically cost anywhere from $35-$100.)
The next day, a group of deaf people protested outside the dentist's office, proclaiming discrimination had taken place.
This was not an exceedingly complicated medical procedure, and simple pen and paper would have sufficed if the deaf couple had utilized it. And, again, ASL is woefully inefficient in terms of written language, so perhaps there was no need to use written language because the deaf couple may or may not have been illiterate in English - but not ASL.
I don't know if that illuminates the answer to your questions, but that's part of the problem deaf culture promotes.
Paotie
32 - Paotie
By the way,
ASL has its roots in French - not English.
Paotie
33 - Michael J. West
Still waiting for facts or sources....
34 - Paotie
Mike West -
This is not an research forum, nor is it paramount to outline every little bitty ditty detail that's open to debate. I have my resources, and I'll list one for you (you can find additional resources within the book itself, or if you're so inclined, research the topic yourself further). And, to give you a hint, look at the book that's listed at the top of this article.
You will notice also that this article is an opinion. As any person who understands statistics and research designs, knows numbers can be manipulated to mean anything anyone decides. My perspective, my experience and my research indicates the numbers I've outlined are valid, and thus are the premises behind the numbers. You're allowed to disagree - which is the basis of free speech in this country, and for BlogCritics in particular.
If you're implying my numbers are incorrect or false, then prove it. Why stay idle and demand resources on an OPINION formulated by enthographical research, among other things?
And, your claim that students wanted a deaf president goes hand-in-hand with deaf culture and ASL militants. Why the need for a deaf president? Was there some horrible crime being committed against deaf people on campus by hearing administrators? Your arguments align themselves neatly with the pervasive view inherent within deaf culture that hearing people simply don't understand the deaf. Even if that were true, that doesn't mean that hearing people are incapable of having an ability to be empathetic; your argument suggests that hearing people are NOT sympathetic and therefore, calls for a "Deaf President Now" are somehow justified. Bullshit.
And, your statement that, "One of the initiatees, in fact, went on the record as saying, 'Never mind the mode of communication our president would choose or his background, as long as he was deaf.'" demonstrates the narrow-mindedness that people such are yourself adopt with respect to issues relating to deaf people and deaf culture.
Now, for references, I'll give you an additional one besides the one listed at the top of this article:
ASL: Shattering the Myth - Tom Bertling. I suspect you have the ability to use Amazon to find it. Buy it. Read it.
:o)
Paotie
35 - Ursula
Well written. But may I direct you to a *very* thoughtful counter argument written directly in response to this entry by one of the many talented bloggers at Deaf DC. After reading her piece, I've decided that she's right on.
36 - Michael J. West
This is not an research forum, nor is it paramount to outline every little bitty ditty detail that's open to debate.
I don't ask you to outline every little bitty ditty detail that's open to debate, Paotie. You, however, have failed to give substantiation to any of your claims. The one thing you provide sourcing for is that Gallaudet had its accreditation probated, and that source provided no evidence for the reasoning you imply behind that probation.
Put it this way: without SOME sort of substantiation, what possible reason do I have to believe any of your statements?
I have my resources, and I'll list one for you (you can find additional resources within the book itself, or if you're so inclined, research the topic yourself further). And, to give you a hint, look at the book that's listed at the top of this article.
I've spent a good deal of the day doing research on the Internet. I've found little data that supports you.
Oh, and it should be noted that the book to which you link has one reader review on Amazon, and that one (written by the parents of a deaf child) articulates exactly the same problem with the book as I have articulated with your article:
You will notice also that this article is an opinion.
Indeed. But even opinions can be uninformed, ill-thought, and implausible. Perhaps your opinion is none of these. Or perhaps it is. How do I know either way?
As any person who understands statistics and research designs, knows numbers can be manipulated to mean anything anyone decides.
Does that mean that it's just as well not to provide any numbers, statistics or research? The lack of them does far more damage to your credibility than the inclusion of numbers that might be manipulated or interpreted in various ways.
My perspective, my experience and my research indicates the numbers I've outlined are valid, and thus are the premises behind the numbers.
You have provided very few numbers at all, Paotie. You state that:
(a) less than 10% of all deaf people use ASL exclusively. That claim, which again has no source (it's really not that hard to put a link in there), actually damages your overall claim that the deaf culture's emphasis on ASL causes any sort of damage; if it hasn't caused over 90% of Americans have the ability to communicate without ASL, then how does emphasizing ASL seriously jeopardize deaf people's ability to communicate?
(b) 60-70% of all deaf adults are late-deafened. Which is something of a tangent and says little about ASL's benefit or detriment in the deaf community.
(c) 90% of all children are born to hearing parents. Which seems relevant on the surface, if you assume that children who are born deaf will only be communicating with their parents for the rest of their lives. Or if you don't know that humans acquire the motor skills necessary for speech and diction by HEARING what the language is supposed to sound like.
Where are your numbers for how many deaf people are illiterate? Or for how many are taught ASL to the exclusion of English? Or for how many are taught ASL with English as a second language? Or, for that matter, for how many have learned English in some form and say that they feel "shunned" by the deaf community? I've got no reason to believe any of these people exist in significant numbers.
You're allowed to disagree - which is the basis of free speech in this country, and for BlogCritics in particular.
I'm not sure whether I disagree or not. Remember how in mathematics, you learn that sometimes there is not enough information given to determine the answer to the problem? That's where I am right now.
If you're implying my numbers are incorrect or false, then prove it.
I'm suggesting that there AREN'T many numbers, and that the few you do provide don't come with any substantiation. Also, you know better than "prove it." You are the one making claims, and the burden of proof is therefore on you; I'm not claiming your claims are wrong. I'm simply claiming that you do a poor job of supporting them.
Why stay idle and demand resources on an OPINION formulated by enthographical research, among other things?
This, Paotie, is just silly. You insist that your opinion is formulated by ethnographical research (while stressing that it is only an OPINION), but at the same time you balk at the suggestion that you provide sources for the research you say you've done? If you don't furnish resources, why should I believe you when you say that your OPINION is formulated by ethnographical resources?
And, your claim that students wanted a deaf president goes hand-in-hand with deaf culture and ASL militants.
There is absolutely no logical connection between those two ideas, and you at no point establish even a rational basis for such a connection.
Why the need for a deaf president? Was there some horrible crime being committed against deaf people on campus by hearing administrators?
The need for a deaf president, according to my research, had absolutely nothing to do with crimes perpetrated by hearing administrators. It came from the implication, by virtue of the fact that Gallaudet had never had a deaf president, that deaf people were not competent to serve as the president of a deaf university. Even the most cursory research told me that much.
Your arguments align themselves neatly with the pervasive view inherent within deaf culture that hearing people simply don't understand the deaf.
As noted above, my arguments do nothing of the kind.
Even if that were true, that doesn't mean that hearing people are incapable of having an ability to be empathetic;
Certainly they're capable of being empathetic. That's completely irrelevant, as noted above.
your argument suggests that hearing people are NOT sympathetic and therefore, calls for a "Deaf President Now" are somehow justified. Bullshit.
It is bullshit. Which is why I said nothing of the kind, nor suggested anything of the kind. You, Paotie, seem to be making astounding leaps in logic, assuming a meaning in my statements that is not there. You undermine your own credibility when you make such brash assumptions.
And, your statement that, "One of the initiatees, in fact, went on the record as saying, 'Never mind the mode of communication our president would choose or his background, as long as he was deaf.'" demonstrates the narrow-mindedness that people such are yourself adopt with respect to issues relating to deaf people and deaf culture.
First of all, how in the world do you imagine that that quotation demonstrates anything about me? The fact that I quoted one of the leaders of the DPN movement demonstrates my narrow-mindedness in regards to deaf people and deaf culture? Again, the logic in that assertion is extremely difficult to understand.
Second of all, didn't you just finish insisting that hearing people were not deficient in empathy for the deaf? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but you now seem to be suggesting that they ARE--or at least that I am, although I still don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion.
Now, for references, I'll give you an additional one besides the one listed at the top of this article:
ASL: Shattering the Myth - Tom Bertling. I suspect you have the ability to use Amazon to find it. Buy it. Read it.
Will do. I hope it's got better support for its claims than you demonstrate for yours in this article. And for the allegedly insubstantiated claims in Bertling's other book, which you link to at the top of the page.
I also hope, by the way, that your research consists of work by more than one author.
37 - Michael J. West
By the way: I deleted two additional links from the previous comment, since more than three are not allowed in a single comment.
38 - Paotie
To #35:
It should be noted that the writer of the DeafDC blog teaches English at Gallaudet, and naturally ignored the other, salient points regarding Gallaudet. Of course, she states she's culturally deaf, and then remarks that she "needs to decide which group" she belongs to with dripping sarcasm. As the article progresses, notice how she begins labeling deaf people into the categorization of "D/deaf."
In deaf culture, a person who is culturally deaf is labeled as "David is Deaf." A person who is not considered culturally deaf is identified by, "David is deaf."
If anything, her article validates the political ramifications of language being manipulated not by linguists, nor by the very deaf people who use ASL, but by political pundits who love to proclaim a certain "race" (her word, not mine) of deaf people. Surely, we'll hear more about "racism" against deaf people soon enough. Silly.
A few years ago, some educators in Oakland, California proclaimed the existence of a "language" in ebonics, remember? And, you'll notice that the author of the DeafDC blog follows nearly the exact same argument made for ebonics.
Even better, the author does agree that there is truth to my article, even if she sees it differently. The laughable aspect of her article is that she's humoring herself with her own argument's contradictions.
And finally, Ursula, try to learn to read a bit more clearly.
;o)
Paotie
39 - Dianrez
Annoying as some articles are when it comes to criticizing ASL and its value to the Deaf community, they serve a useful function: to present an extremely opposing viewpoint and possibly suggest some positive actions. I see neither of these; the points presented are subjective, lack evidence, and sound suspiciously like the oralist arguments of the fifties that are now well documented as without merit.
In these, the article was disappointing.
It also made me wonder: at what age did the writer become deaf? Was the author's education orally based? How much language did the author obtain through hearing? These could have been the basis for adopting oralist arguments.
40 - kstein
Ummm...
"on the east coast, interpreters can charge $240/hour, with 2-hour minimum charge, which is the norm for interpreters - in this case $480"
As a full-time, professional interpreter on the east coast for the last 15 years, I have to correct this misinformation. A typical charge here ranges from $35-$50/hour for direct contracting. With a two-hour minimum, that's a maximum of $100. Furthermore, in many cases, Medicaid covers the cost of interpreters for medical appointments.
"I'm not sure about your area, but dental exams typically cost anywhere from $35-$100"
My (east coast) dental exams cost $125-$200, depending on if I have x-rays or not. At least, that's what my Deaf, ASL-signing dentist charges (he really is!).
ks
41 - zingzing
damn.
42 - Barb DiGi
"Conversely, by the 1970’s, many researchers of deaf and hard of hearing educational systems began touting ASL as a “native” language of deaf people and began demanding ASL only be taught in deaf residential schools."
Demanding ASL only to be taught in deaf residential schools since the 70's?
That is the most absurd, false statement I ever heard in my life as a teacher for 15 years. Deaf students were rarely exposed by ASL users who were educators as most of them used artificial languages (Signed Exact English, Pidgin Signed English, Simultaneous Communication method and the likes). They may have used ASL mostly from deaf families, deaf residential counselors and staff but rarely coming from teachers who used ASL and who knew how to practice bilingual education. In other words, they had never received proper training on how to bridge ASL to English. If you take a look around in deaf education teacher preparatory program, I have found only two post-bachelorate programs offering bilingual education. The rest offers mostly clinical courses so go figure.
Fortunately, there is a growing number of residential schools that are adopting bilingual education philosophy that they affilitated to a training/research center called CAEBER program where they are able to develop and share strategies on how to bridge both languages.
I use hearing aid, speak well, and sign fluently in ASL. I don't feel shunned at all by these culturally deaf people. Again, this is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. It has nothing to do with the fluency of English but the fluency of ASL. Once you are fluent in ASL, you will be respected especially that you advocate for it just in the same way in any foreign speaking countries.
One of more things I need to say, not all residential schools are alike. Where I work promotes teaching the standards and admit state exams to get a high school diploma or advanced Regents and there is no history of frequent sexual abuse. Sexual activities, unfortunately, happen in any schools, public or private anyway. Just don't stereotype the residential schools. Many students I have known felt blessed to find their identity and language when enrolling in residential schools.
By the way, I have two profoundly deaf children ages 8 and 9 and their first language is ASL. They are excellent readers and writers and skipped a grade during primary/elementary years. Yes, both of them. With a strong language foundation, they are able to successfully adopt strong literacy skills. Simple as that.
43 - STM
Paotie: "ASL has its roots in French - not English."
Highly appropriate Paotie since the French are given to speaking with their hands. Especially when saying "Merde!" ....
44 - STM
DD: "Clav, Stan, I actually am very fond of the French."
Me too. It's just a bit of fun, for anyone on here who doesn't realised Doc and I are having a wind-up. My best mate in Sydney for many years was French, although he has since returned to France. Once they are friends, they are very good friends. I enjoy their company, their insanity, and their passion.
And I love the way they play rugby ... tough, hard, dirty, with lots of mud and blood - but with a flair that can literally leave you breathless (especially if you can't catch the winger).
A good-looking french fly half is a far more dangerous proposition than an ugly English prop with cauliflower ears and a head like a cracked crab (I think they clone them at Twickenham), especially as he's orchestrating the next opportunity to turn you into a human turnstile.
45 - kstein
#32:
"By the way,
ASL has its roots in French - not English.
Paotie"
[Just to clarify, you mean to say that ASL's roots are in LSF, or French Sign Language, and not in French spoken language.]
Interesting to note that the same statement can be made of English, since some 60% of English comes from French. Guess that makes English one of those evil "foreign" languages here in America.
ks
PS: I know how to sign "ameliorate." (#31)
46 - Dr Dreadful
Bleedin' heck, Stan how is it that sooner or later, you always turn the thread around to rugby...?
I suspect that the French are only any good at the Webb Ellis code compared with the Brits. They should be expelled from the Six Nations forthwith to avoid making the rest of us look bad.
...Hell, even the Italians are starting to win a few - albeit their players all have suspiciously French-sounding names.
Will you and the Boers and the Sheepworriers take les Français in the Tri-Nations? I think they'd fit in a lot better there as they seem to get severely spanked whenever they are confronted with a team from the Southern Hemisphere.
As far as English rugby players are concerned: they may refine the ugly quotient at Twickenham but the mould is cast long before that. I spent my last two years of high school at a rugby-playing school, and even at the tender (actually, not all that tender) age of 17 you could still tell the members of the rugger squad by the flattened noses and cauliflower ears.
47 - Dr Dreadful
kstein (#45) claimed: I know how to sign "ameliorate."
Ah yes, but do you have to go to the emergency room to have your fingers put back in their sockets afterwards?
:-D
48 - STM
Yes, mea culpa, my opinion of various races seems to revolve around how they play rugby, doesn't it? I must look at that. It's obviously a personal failing ... (one of many)
However, it's not a bad yardstick :) And in summer, we'll move onto cricket - that other great civilising influence inherited from the British.
I rest my case on this theory with Pakistan, one of the few muslim cricket-playing nations and the only one that's actually any good at it. In theory, that country should be a hotbed of islamic wahabist/salafist fanaticim (Oh, wait ...)
Nevertheless, Islamabad is on our side. Just. How does that work? Cricket, dear sir, is the answer. If they got too antsy, they'd be banned - and no one wants that.
All islamic fanatics should therefore be forced to start playing cricket at the age of four, thus nullifying the problem forever. Then those inclined to testosterone-fuelled biff and barge fests (most of 'em), could also strap on the boots over winter and get out on the park and get their heads bashed in.
This is also why Australia is a peaceful country.
49 - Dr Dreadful
A nation more sports-obsessed than Australia there never was. A land where every third adult is an Olympic medallist. It's a wonder you get anyone to join the army. All your young people's aggressive traits get channelled into hurling balls of various sizes around fields of various shapes.
Perhaps the Australian armed forces are composed entirely of mercenaries...
50 - STM
It's a better way to solve your problems than blowing the shit out of every bastard though, eh Doc?
51 - Paotie
#39 - Of course you would question whether I'm oralist or not. In the end, what's more important to you as evidence of your comments is not so much how to best facilitate communication for deaf children, but the political values that drive the Oralism vs ASL argument. Additionally, you seem to adopt the view that the majority of culturally deaf people are stone-deaf and have never heard a single sound. As anyone knows, deaf people who are pathologically deaf tend to have residual hearing, much like blind people have residual sight, so the issue of hearing has less to do with educational abilities and more about political values. Interestingly enough, many culturally deaf people wear hearing aids, and would be able to facilitate SOME learning of English through sounds. Thanks for repeating a mantra that ASL militants love to claim: deaf people NEVER have heard a single sound and ought to be excused for not learning English.
#40 - Well, prices are subjective to geographical markets and economics, so the point really isn't about prices, which I shouldn't have inserted. Either way, the dental story actually happened, and thanks for selectively ignoring that. I also know a couple deaf doctors, so while you self-congratulate yourself for having a deaf dentist, riddle me this: why aren't there more deaf medical doctors or dentists than currently? If the educational system was so marvelous, why aren't there more deaf doctors given the highly specialized nature of deaf education itself within deaf residential schools, and in particular, Gallaudet given the huge resources spent on educating the deaf?
#42 - If your policy is to sail through life adopting the "out of sight, out of mind" mindset, then that's your choice. Simply because you never heard of it doesn't mean it never happened. If anything, your comment reflected an inability to research and think independently for yourself, and instead, repeat what you've been told.
Even more startling - you claim to have been a teacher, and based on your comments, perhaps you were busy teaching children WHAT to do think as opposed to HOW to think. Great job - that's one of the problems inherent at Gallaudet, in many deaf residential schools and deaf culture itself. Wonder if you were a teacher at the school for the deaf. Hmm .. I wouldn't be surprised.
Since you seem to think that ASL instantly commands respect, then you should write to the New Mexico Legislature and inform politicans there that the culturally deaf people who use ASL ought to be respected to the highest degree because of their fluency in ASL - English be damned. The interpreter educational program in Albuquerque stated that deaf people - in particular the culturally deaf - lack the ability to file complaints against unprofessional interpreters. I don't know - seems to me your argument runs contrary to what was stated during the legislative proceedings. No doubt legislators will love your comment and see the hypocrisy. Thanks!
Also, considering the poor quality of education that many deaf schools have been outputting (which seems, ironically, to be linked to Gallaudet's inability to achieve academic respect with other hearing universities), I am not sure the fact that your children, who supposedly skipped a grade in a deaf school, should be considered all that amazing. A deaf child skipping a grade in a public school would be more remarkable, even more so if a deaf child skipped a grade in a higher-level private school. As for your children's reading and writing skills, it's all about relativity, baby! Do they read/write on par with hearing peers, or with deaf peers in the deaf school? Again, given the poor history of educational programs within deaf residential schools, your comment leaves much to the imagination.
Finally, what's amazing is that people become angry or "disappointed" or whatnot based on a person's opinion. And someone noted that my opinion is subjective.
Hmm .. has anyone ever heard of an objective political opinion? Goodness! Maybe some of you subscribe to the notion that you only need one medical opinion because it is an objective opinion. What would be the point in seeking a 2nd, or 3rd medical opinion, anyway? Politics and opinions are based entirely on subjectiveness regardless of the subject matter.
What would be the point of having a democracy if opinions were all objective? Absurd.
:o)
Paotie
52 - Clavos
Good response, Paotie.
This whole thread has been a real eye-opener for me, and from it, I can only conclude that you are correct in your fundamental assertion that the education of the deaf is fraught with internal politics.
I also see your point about marginalizing deaf kids who are not taught English; the same point applies to immigrants (in particular Latinos) who demand their kids be educated in their native language, little realizing what that will do to the kids in terms of being able to function in the the US culture.
53 - Paotie
Clavos,
Thanks. In fact, I encourage you to check out the DCDeaf blog, and look at the arguments that follow the initial comments. You can see the contradiction between the original intent of Gallaudet and it's current focus on the promotion of social and political values, rather than intellectual and academic education.
Hope the editors don't mind the link (it should be noted that someone derided the quality of BlogCritics and suggested people needed their "ass kicked" - which shows the juvenile extremism prevalent within deaf culture.)
Paotie
54 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Paotie,
Like Clavos, I'm very impressed with your responses to the various folks who have attempted to argue with you. You evidently have a excellently well honed verbal sabre and use it well.
But, like Mike West, I do notice that your articles are light on links where they could be heavier. I see two possible reasons for this. One is that in writing the article, you just didn't think to put them in. When writing an opinion piece, I go light on the links also. When I label it "news," by contrast, I try to set in at least a few links, though I must admit that others are better at this than I.
The other possibility is that you are developing a stance and attempting to speak for others of similar mind, but folks who do not necessarily have links to link to. This is what I sense to be the case.
In other words, you are the link developing what is the argument of the dissident. But in that event, you need to provide some other source of ideas, if only to reassure readers like Mike West that you are not making all this up out of thin air.
I tend to agree with your basic approach. You do not need to convince me. But as Joseph Stalin once observed, "total agreement is found only in the grave." Since, thank G-d, all of us appear to be alive here, not all of us agree automatically. those links are often (but not always) good tools of persuasion...
55 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Sorry, That should have read "I do notice that this article is light on links..."
56 - Paotie
Thank you, Ruvy.
You're right regarding the links and citations. I tend to not provide links because I didn't particularly want the links/citations to become the focal point of the article, in part because some of my points are aligned with the writings of the deaf author, Tom Bertling - who is viewed by many as a pariah within deaf culture himself.
It's a bit of a case of whether or not the egg or chicken comes first. But, I do agree (and respectfully apologize to Mr. West) that the need for citations/links will only enhance my points and not subtract from the substance of my article.
Thanks for the advice! One good thing about being deaf - I won't miss a wink of sleep even after people continue (stupidly) shooting fireworks all through the night during the 4th of July.
:o)
Paotie
57 - moonraven
A concerned citizen:
There already IS a fusion of English and Spanish. It is widely spoken along the border and there are even some writers who use it.
It is called Spanglish.
58 - Clavos
Except where it's spoken; there it's called Tex-Mex or Pocho.
59 - moonraven
No it is not.
Pocho refers to a Mexican by birth who has culturally assimilated to life in the US.
60 - Clavos
mr, I LIVED there. That's what it's called along this side of the border, whether you agree or not.
61 - Paotie
Clavos/moonraven -
For what it's worth, the Harvard educational researcher and author, Sandra Stotsky, in her book, "Losing our Language," suggests that the multicultural approach to education, in particular to reading and writing in English, has led to the watering down of educational standards and abilities of American school children as a whole.
She partially blames educational publishers for bowing down to popular and contemporary demands for increased multicultural textbooks as a way to increase reading and writing skills in conjunction with teaching American children about the diversity of America without research sustaining the purpose of multicultural education. She argues that the results have been the opposite: academic standards have been dumbed down considerably - especially since the early 1900's. Also, she notes prior to 1990's, the number of educational textbooks published for children containing positive diversity views were few and far in between. Rather, the focus on the stories involving cultural diversity were consistent with establishing "white guilt" and "victimization" (my word) through stories in which ethnic groups were celebrated as being victims in contrast to the larger (white) society were more prominently featured.
In fact, Harvard African American Studies professor, Anthony Appiah describes the multicultural approach to education as facilitating the opposite of diversity and aims to, "close young people off into identities already ascribed to them," rather than promote increased academic standards and abilities of American school children, as well as diversity.
Also, she notes that original stories, such as "Black Beauty" and "Robinson Crusoe" have been edited and re-edited to the point that higher-level word order no longer exists in American textbooks. The modification of these stories by educational publishers seems to suggest that publishers cater to the demands of various educational institutions, as well as popular political views prevalent during each publication.
I wonder if this comment was better served in Dave Nalle's recent article regarding the Supreme Court's decision. In any case, as I said, read into it however you like. Just offering something on the table for you to consider.
Happy 4th of July.
:o)
Paotie
62 - moonraven
clavos, I don't give a fuck where you SAY you have lived.
I lived for ten years in New Mexico and for the past 14 I have lived in Mexico, am a specialist in linguistic studies [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].
63 - Michael J. West
God, she becomes an expert on whatever is convenient at any given moment.
64 - Clavos
Yup!
65 - moonraven
I realize the concept of a well-educated, well-travelled polylingual Renaissance Person is way beyond your piddling understanding of the world.
But that doesn't mean that it does not exist.
66 - Christopher Rose
Hey, Gran'ma, the concept exists but you ain't the paradigm.
I notice you have moved up the alphabet from pibble to piddle; where will you pause next? Piffle? Piggle?
67 - STM
Hello America.
I'd just like to offer you my heartfelt commiserations on the sad anniversary of your dreadful mistake in breaking away from the British Empire.
I do feel for you all, but I suggest trying to enjoy the day anyway as you never know what the future will hold.
Like the prodigal son, I'm sure you will all be welcome back one day.
68 - Clavos
You're just jealous 'cause we all got to drink beer all day today...
69 - kstein
(#51--Paotie):
Paotie: "Well, prices are subjective [sic] to geographical markets and economics, so the point really isn't about prices, which I shouldn't have inserted."
Thank you for that last admission. Based on the last few postings, you are starting to realize the importance of substantiating your claims. Fabricating "facts" in order to support your opinions just isn't pretty and results in loss of credibility among your readers.
While prices (of anything) are, indeed, subject to geographical markets and economics, you specifically stated your story occured on the east coast, which, as I stated, is where I work. I would love for you to tell me what interpreter--anywhere in the country, at any point in time--charges anywhere near $480 for a 20-minute dental appointment.
You say that the "point [of the story] isn't really about prices" when, of course, it is. Your story is about a dentist faced with having to pay exorbitant interpreting fees (and the resulting uproar when he doesn't), isn't it?
Paotie: "Either way, the dental story actually happened, and thanks for selectively ignoring that."
Since you called this account a "story," we thought it was an example you created to illustrate your point. Now that you have said it is true, here's the rest of the story, which you were either unaware of or "selectively ignored":
1) Had the dentist done his homework, he would have discovered the "undue burden" clause in the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), which would exempt him from providing accommodations beyond what his practice could reasonably be expected to afford. Furthermore, he would have learned about tax breaks given to businesses that are required to provide accommodations.
2) The ADA requires that service providers arrange and pay for "auxiliary aids" when needed for effective communication. This term includes interpreters, assistive listening devices, captioning, and more--even pen and paper where effective (although in the case of a dental exam, writing back and forth could take twice as long, resulting in the dentist losing another appointment that day, so not sure how this suggestion of yours is fiscally wise).
So this means that hard of hearing folks who don't use interpreters have just as much right to insist on the reasonable accommodations they need. Just as some deaf signers advocate for their legal right to interpreters, some non-signing deaf people also (frequently) advocate for their communication needs. In other words, such laws aren't written to provide special rights to any one group (ASL users), as you imply.
(ADA info at www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm.)
Paotie: "Why aren't there more deaf medical doctors or dentists than currently? If the educational system was so marvelous, why aren't there more deaf doctors given the highly specialized nature of deaf education itself within deaf residential schools, and in particular, Gallaudet given the huge resources spent on educating the deaf?"
Not related to your dentist story, but anyway....
I do not pretend to know the stats on how many deaf doctors there are in proportion to the total population nor if this number is increasing or decreasing. This is something I do not know, and so I do not speculate or fabricate. I do know that we've got to collectively find ways to improve the dismal state of deaf education in this country.
In summary, I whole-heartedly agree with #39, who says, in essence, that informed debate on these topics is important. Frankly, I'm still waiting for the "informed" part of the debate here to begin.
ks
70 - STM
Clav: "You're just jealous 'cause we all got to drink beer all day today ... "
Drowning your sorrows, eh?
71 - Clavos
Good comeback, SS.
Score one for the haberdasher.
72 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Hey, Gran'ma, the concept exists but you ain't the paradigm
You done stole the words outta me own mouth, Chris. This is scary - we're agreein' on something again...
73 - Paotie
ks ..
*yaaaaawn*
The $240/hour was a figure given on a MySpace Interpreter group by an interpreter. The area, I think, was in Mass., though I'll have to comb through the postings again to find that specific location.
In New Mexico, the going rate is $50/hour with 2-hour minimum requirements.
Dental exams cost $25.00.
You also assume the ADA ONLY requires interpreters. Wrong - the ADA requires "reasonable accommodations" and in the infinite wisdom of Congress, this is a vague definition of what exactly a deaf person requires in terms of accommodation, and the cause of much fear and disinformation.
And, you assume every dentist in America has the infinite knowledge of tax breaks and the like for the ADA and/or deaf people that you have. One problem your comment illuminates is the lack of outreach provided by many deaf and interpreter organizations about the ADA, and what exactly deaf people need because again, not ALL deaf people require the same things. Some require transliterators; some require interpreters, and some simply require pen and paper.
And, maybe you've never been to a dentist, but my dentist and I worked out my dental exam nicely. He simply opened his mouth WIIIIIIDE when he wanted me to open my mouth WIIIIIIIDE so that he could inspect my teeth and clean them. When he wanted me to spit, he made a face that looked like he was about to spit tabacky, which caused me to laugh AND spit.
I like my dentist. I didn't force him to shell out $100 to have an interpreter tell me, "Open mouth WIIIIIIIIDE."
Or, "Spit."
I'm not militant either. I tell my dentist, "if we have a major surgical procedure, can you give me all the written literature available, and if I have any questions, can I email you?" He's wonderful. His secretary emails me.
It costs us NOTHING to communicate.
Next time you open your mouth WIIIIIIDE for a dentist, think about me.
:o)
Paotie
74 - Paotie
Oh, and by the way, my dentist wears a transparent facemask/cover. Whatever it's called.
*yaaaawn*
Nite nite.
:o)
Paotie
75 - sr
LOUDER PLEASE, I CANT HEAR YA-ALL.