The struggle continues! When the president told us that we were now in a struggle against ideological extremism, he sure wasn't kidding. (See video here in .mov format) Today, we will look at Christian fundamentalist and former presidential candidate, Pat Robertson.…
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26 - Phillip Winn
John, I'll spell this out for the benefit of people who might actually read it.
I'm not defending Pat Robertson, as my comment prior to yours demonstrates. This article is about Pat Robertson, not President Bush. My comment to you wasn't about either one, but about your abuse and misuse of the Bible as a weapon of self-righteous arrogance.
The man whose name you are using here would be ashamed to have your diatribe associated with his name. If disagreement over the gospel wasn't enough to get John Wesley to speak ill of his opponents, and his opposition to war resulted in only impassioned pleas -- not vindicative attacks -- then surely our current situation would be better served by following his example than by using his name to demonstrate a rejection of the fruit of the Spirit whom he served.
That's all. I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of war, but with your expression of your assessment.
27 - Sensum Fidelium
You're right, Spirit-filled!
A house cannot be divided among itself.
Pat Robertson can't speak for God if he is for Bush, because if he's for Bush, he's for Bush real father, who is none other than devil! [John VIII: 44].
I hope that you can reach out to Pat Robertson and tell him about the Prince of Peace!!!!
http://www.petitiononline.com/B6U6S6H/petition.html
28 - Nancy
I for one wish that Jesus H. (or whatever his middle initial was/is) Christ had never existed. We would then have been spared all the millenia of butchery, wars, crimes, bigotry, stupidity, ignorance, & idiocy that his self-styled followers have perpetrated. I also wish that Mohammed Q. Prophet had never existed. We would then be spared all the butchery, wars, crimes, bigotry, stupidity, ignorance, & idiocy that HIS self-styled followers are perpetrating today.
As for Robertson & his ilk, they're to-the-core, natural-born assholes. If they don't have religion to base their nasty little minds & even nastier, littler souls on, they'll come up with something else.
29 - Rob
"Do you have the statistics on this at your fingertips? I imagine that, if he is "no better than a Bin Laden" as an above post claims, the number of murders for which Robertson is responsible must number in the thousands."
Does Bin Laden incourage tolerance for different cultures, creeds, for homosexuality, etc...? Neither does Pat. This is the comparison I'm making. I can't say that Pat is responsible for terrorism related deaths, so I won't.
30 - Alan
Well, I'll say it, Rob.
Robertson is for Bush.
If you're with Bush, you're with the terrorists!
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7245
31 - gonzo marx
Nancy, don't blame Yeshua ben Miriam...it wasn't his fault...
start with Saul of Tarsus and his lies, then head to Iraneus for his political manipulations and desire to consolidate earthly power via the establishment of a universal(catholic) Church, then next up was Constantine with Nicea and the blending of Roman sun god worship with early christianity, mix them up and make them the "official" state religion of the Roman empire...
all politics after that...
the blame is with the men that came after, not the Teacher in the first place..
hope that helps
Excelsior!
32 - Nancy
Oh, I'm not blaming the teachers; I'm saying tho that if they had never existed, at least those who ARE to blame wouldn't have had them to use as excuses.
33 - Presidential Prayer Team
Pray for George Bush and Pat Robertson.
http://www.cbn.com/contact/feedback-salvation3.asp
May God redirect their lives.
34 - billy
I am praying that God creates a tornado and sweeps both of them away. May God redirect them into the upper atmosphere never to return.
35 - Dave Nalle
>>And if you havent heard, our government has killed over 90,000 civilians in Iraq<<
Ok, let's see some factual support for that number. At last count the absolute maximum anyone could document or even extrapolate including deaths from terrorism associated with the war was less than 30,000. A more realistic number for civilian casualties actually caused by our military is under 10,000.
Let me ask you this. If you find it necessary to use lies to support your position, how does that make you any better than Pat Robertson or George Bush, since all you're doing is trying to use deception to stir up hate?
Dave
36 - Alan
So, let's go with your estimate of 10,000. (Although, it's probably deflated.) Is 10,000 within the allowable limit for slaughtering ("democratizing")civilians? What is the exact number between 10,000 and 90,000 that is the "civilian death minumum".
Incidently, overseas journalists are reporting 90,000.
If Robertson is a Christian, he should use the 700 Club to go on air and tearfully apologize to the people of Iraq and London for every vote that be directed to George W. Bush.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0531,mondo1,66448,6.html
37 - Dave Nalle
>>So, let's go with your estimate of 10,000. (Although, it's probably deflated.) Is 10,000 within the allowable limit for slaughtering ("democratizing")civilians? What is the exact number between 10,000 and 90,000 that is the "civilian death minumum". <<
The exact number is irrelevant. One civilian death is too many, and any larger number is equally undesirable. But when you have a war civilians die, even if that war was intended to liberate them. Those who survive are still better off than they were under a regime which killed twice as many people on average in a year with intent to do harm and with no conceivable benefit for the survivors.
Almost all of the civilian casualties were during the active military phase of the war. Since that time actual civilian deaths caused by coalition forces have been very rare.
Our military takes extraordinary efforts to avoid killing civilians at the risk of their own lives. To suggest that they do not is to suggest that they kill indiscriminately. To report a blatantly false number of civilian deaths to make them look bad and to advance your political agenda, is reprehensible.
Pat Robertson may be an bigoted idiot, but at least the has the intention of doing good, however misguided he may be. You, on the other hand, are engaging in malicious deception out of pure fantatical hatred with no intention to do anything but harm.
>>Incidently, overseas journalists are reporting 90,000.<<
A lot of ill-informed people say a lot of stupid things just because everyone else is. I'm sure your familiar with the phenomenon.
Dave
38 - Alan
"A lot of ill-informed people say a lot of stupid things just because everyone else is. I'm sure your familiar with the phenomenon."
Yes. I've seen Fox News on occasion.
The "phenomenon" is all too common:
"Saddan has WMDs"
"Saddam is linked to 9/11"
et cetera, ad nauseum
39 - Matt
I agree with you, Alan.
But first Robertson must apologise to the 1st victims of the Bush Administration, the people of New York:
http://www.newpearlharbor.com/BooksN/New_Pearl_Harbor.html
Then, ultimately, he should use his media resources for GOOD for a change, and expose Bush's innumerable crime and publicly call for his impeachment and for that of Cheney.
"If the people knew what we had done, they would chase us down the street and
lynch us." ~ George H.W. Bush to journalist Sarah McClendon.
40 - Alan
Soon aftern 9/11, Jerry Falwell sat alongside Pat Robertson on national TV and said,
"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen'."
http://www.commondreams.org/news2001/0917-03.htm
Ironic, isn't it?!?!
I really don't think that support for Bush is high among pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, the ACLU, and People For the American Way.
Falwell and Robertson should have taken responsibilty for helping to bring about the terrible state of affairs by encouraging votes for Bush!
I understand that Falwell apologized for his comments, but still hasn't admitted his responsility in helping to bring us the worst president ever and all of the subsequent repercussions.
41 - Dave Nalle
Matt, there are doctors who specialize in treating paranoia. You might want to visit one.
Dave
42 - The Bulldog Manifesto
Actually, I got the 90,000 civilians number from John McLaughlin of the McLaughlin Group! Is he a liberal?
Do you know why there are no hard numbers on civilian deaths? Figure it out. Let me ask you though, is 10,000 okay with you? How about 10?
Check this out.....
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1031-01.htm
Although you probably will think these journalists are also unreliable.
43 - WTF
Who cares?
Who fucking cares?
Who's fucking Robertson? Is he Christ... he's not even the fuckin Vicor of Christ!
He's the son of a Senator.... who never made it to the humanistic rank of Senator. Who has raised millions (via his organization) to help the poor and needy in places you (the commentor) wouldn't go to on a dare.
That's who Pat Robertson is.
Do I care.... for Pat? No. Do I care that he has prolonged or saved millions of lives in 3rd world hell holes? Maybe.
Should you drop the BS and give an old warhorse some due? Probably.
If you have issues with Pat's faith... that's you're problem.
There are hundreds and hundreds... maybe hundreds of thousands... who are alive today, because of the leadership role Robertson has lent to helping the deparately poor people in regions so remote..... you wouldn't even remember.
Give the guy some fuckin' credit... you bunch of ungrateful fucks.
44 - gonzo marx
wow..so, WTF..i take it you are a fan?
i'll go for him using some of the cash he has raised for good stuff, if you will grant that he has used quitre a lot of it for financing a political agenda
part of my difficulty with many of these televangelists is the hypocrisy between how they live, and how that conflicts with the teachings of Christ which they profess to follow and preach
other than that, most are harmless
there are many cases of intolerance for those that are different (such as gays, or non-beleivers i their particular flavor of Faith)...that's also quite a concern...
don't you agree?
or should we turn a blind eye because a fraction fo the cash raised was used for good deeds?
Excelsior!
45 - Natalie Davis
The harm he has done, which is massive, outweighs any good he has achieved. I have met and spoken with Robertson; he strikes me as cynical. Nothing is done, from what I can see, that has any motive beyond furthering his agenda. (Which, yes, is true for some on the left as well.)
"I know many other people who have used their energy and influence to support the war in Iraq. Christopher Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan come to mind, as well as a number of conservative commentators and observers, etc. Should we include them in your "struggle against ideological extremism," since they are obviously no better than the fanatics who rigorously preach the destruction of all who do not conform to their narrow, feudal ideology and show little hesitation in murderously carrying out their words?"
Why, yes. Absolutely. The blood is on Hitchens' and Sully's hands as well.
46 - WTF
Blather on Gonzo and Natalie.
What happened to 'look for the good in people. Natalie has spewed that line of creamed corn, on a number of occasions... but I guess it doesn't apply here.
Am I a fan? I know who Robertson is, I am aware, I haven't been living in a cave for 40 years. I don't watch the 700 club. I have been to deparately poor countries and seen real poverty.
Anyone who extends goodwill and capital projects to desparate mothers, fathers and children.... has done more than many of those who try and diminish or detract from those life saving efforts.
Do you measure up?
47 - gonzo marx
do i measure up?
you realize that your words come across as condescending, yes?
let's have a go here, i do tend to stay away from the autobiographical..but i'll give you a bit of a clue, then set out why i dislike Robertson and his ilk so much...
4 years military, honorably discharged..no reserve time due to medical considerations
4 years actually living in a class "c" residential health care facility for outpatients from a mental health facility...i was the liscensed Administrator, and the ONLY one in the state that lived on premises...making about 1/2 of the going rate at the time...taught classes for the state in "conflict resoloution as it pertains to violent schizophrenics"..my time there was a donation to the system..i even ate my expenses...other work for various charities on a volunteer basis...
that's a basic idea...
my problem with Robertson and those that do not "earn their bread by the sweat of their brow" but instead make their money from the well meaning donations of their congregations stems from a lot of things
1) their position when it comes to same sex folks...i consider it prejudiced and bigoted
2) how much of that money they kepe for themselves as opposed to using for charitable work
3) for Robertson, i have seen him, on his own television network, promising miracles for "donations"...
the big one..actually telling their congregations that "god has told me (fill in the blank) and he wants your money to do it"
what galls me the worst is that they live so much better(houses, cars, planes, television networks, jewelry)than the members of their congregations...
i do understand that some of the cash goes for good works, feeding hungry folks and the like..and i applaud that
take a look at the percentages of what goes where
so, con men that are bigoted against part of the population are not "good guys" in my book...
as i stated in another Thread about another of these men...even gangsters like John Gotti gave to charitable work...doe s this discount all the evil they have done? Gotti was a murderous mobster, any charitable work he did was extra fropm his evil...these men pass themselves off as "holy"..and "speak with God"...i woudl find that easier to deal with , if they lived simply and the vast majority of the money went for the charitable work
such is not the case
so, before you ask if someone else measures up..examine your own life...then look at the person(s) you are defending...
"it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich main to enter the Gates of Heaven"
nuff said?
Excelsior!
48 - WTF
Sorry to offend your over inflated ego Gonzo.
and I can see by the flurry of typing activity that you are a raging sea vernacular.
But, you failed to answer my question of a double standard at play.
It's obvious you don't consider Robertson worthy of anything... but you have probably done much less yourself.
That just about answers it, in my opinion.
49 - gonzo marx
hey..for you to offend me, i would have to care
try again
and if you mean conning folks out of their money by proclaiming to speak with "god"..
well, yes..i have done less than Robertson
mow, since you desire to be antoagonistic about it
perhaps you should just do what yer doing, rather than continuing to display less active cells in your skull than exist in a cup of dannon yogurt?
Excelsior!
50 - WTF
I don't eat animal protein... the ol' ticker.
You also don't understand the law of the tithe. Perhaps you consider it stealing... Malachi called it stealing from God.
But that's another subject entirely.
I don't believe I ripped into Robertson like a pack of badgers either.
I used to bump into field workers from his organization all the time. Putting in irrigation, drinking water, artisian wells, building houses, schools, providing health care, and doing the "works" associated with the "faith"
I was impressed. What was I doing? Putting up communications towers in remote areas all over the globe. But I did see first hand how much aid that Robertson provided, and how far that he actually reached out.
Slip of the blinders. Robertson has a University which educates, and provide many grants for students from impoverished countries. Aids the the health and welfare of many hundreds of thousands of people, and the logistics it takes to make that happen.
I'm conjecturing that you think that Robertson and his group have to live in caves without power, phones, satellite connectivity, broadband, to meet your humble approval. Why wouldn't a corporate effort like Robertson's require corporate scale communications, and logistics?
You haven't seen it, so I recken you can't be blamed for ignorance. But you are ignorant of the facts.
And you display a great deal of antaginism, where it is unwarranted.
51 - gonzo marx
correction..i have seen much of it..
and part of my difficulty with it can be shown in what you are saying...you met with "field workers"
i woudl eat my own words and give money if it had been himself out there
no..i don't expect him to take a vow of poverty
i just smell a con man when he lives so much further above his "flock"
WTF says..
*you bunch of ungrateful fucks.*
now that's antagonism...
do as you like...but i will continue to state my position against con men when i perceive them
as i said before...many evil folks have committed acts of Charity...
i tend to look at the total, and in the case of "holy" types...what they say and how they say it...
that leads me to my position
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
52 - Silas Kain
Open the Good Book and take a look inside. I don't mean the Bible, either. I'm sounding like a broken record but sometimes Americans need to have things drilled into them before they open their eyes.
Look inside Robertson's Good Book - his book of accounts. Make him and his tax exempt organization ACCOUNTABLE! Rev. Robertson, OPEN your books or SHUT your mouth! Once we know where the money is coming from we'll be able to make a very informed decision, my friends. Me thinks that Rev. Robertson's Temple would be destroyed by a modern day Christ!