It's amazing that our politicians seem to do nothing but gut funding to health care programs and that we don't start beheading the rat bastards selling us out.
Who are we? What have we become?…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The Right to Health Care: Part One - Comments Page 2
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Clavos
Agreed, Chris it doesn't (and certainly shouldn't) have to be.
But it is. And my fear is that a UHC plan that is crafted in the good ole USA (/sarcasm) will be fraught with corruption, cronyism, and plain old theft, because our government is incapable of running anything properly, from war to the delivery of the mail.
27 - Les Slater
Chris,
"The examples you cite are of a badly run and inefficient program but surely that only means it's badly run, not that it has to be..."
It's more like that those that rake in the profits from the ripoffs would like to keep it that way, and do have a say in how things are run.
Les
28 - Les Slater
Clavos,
"...because our government is incapable of running anything properly, from war to the delivery of the mail."
So? We need a new government? Why defend a system that is run on the premise that the wealthy have to ripp us off?
We need a new government run by those that have no interest in ripping our own selves off.
Those in power now do not to worry about the same things we do. They have no material interest in making the system better. It would only make their lot worse off.
Les
29 - troll
Clavos - who does your experience disgrace more...the government for paying irrational prices or the private sector for charging them in the name of maximized profit - ?
30 - Clavos
PS Chris,
I'm not opposed to UHC. And, I think the government should be the single payer, but I think it should be set up to be overseen by a board of directors (haven't figured out how they should be selected) who are NOT in the employ of the government.
The providers should be private industry, and despite bliffle's contentions regarding cost, I think that existing insurance companies (with proper oversight, as above) are best positioned to manage the plan, because of experience.
31 - Clavos
troll,
Clearly, the government.
If you try to rip me off, shame on you.
If you succeed, shame on me.
32 - Les Slater
Clavos,
"If you succeed, shame on me."
And how long have they been succeeding?
No need for shame. Start looking for new ways to solve the problem.
We need a new government, one that meets our needs. We need a new party to start getting there.
Les
33 - Dave Nalle
And then "send[s]large numbers of doctors to Venezuela (healthc are for oil)..." and many other countries too, most without substantial, or any, payment. Cuba also trains people from other countries, including the U.S., to be doctors, for free. They also set up medical teaching facilities in other countries.
And the first thing those doctors do when they get there is to try as hard as they can not to return to Cuba and find a way to defect to the US.
First, the U.S. government restricts your right to travel freely. You can go anywhere you want as long as they say it's ok. You are not allowed to go to Cuba for instance.
Michael Moore went to Cuba and he doesn't seem to be in jail.
Dave
34 - bliffle
"#14 " July 11, 2007 @ 17:15PM " Baronius
This article fails to explain why health care should be considered a right. Rights are pretty serious things. Is health care a human right or a civil right? What level of health care do we have a right to? By what means to we recognize that right? "
Actually, you are exactly wrong. The question is, why should USA society pay a premium to deprive some people of medical care?
In comment #4 I have clearly shown that total medical costs would be reduced by UHC. Therefore, we are paying a premium to deprive some people of medical care.
Upon what criteria are you, oh Erroneous one, prepared to deprive people of care, to the point they may die of such deprivation? For surely it cannot be denied that care deprivation will result in some peoples deaths.
Upon what basis, Mr. Erroneous, do you justify charging USA citizens billions of dollars every year to assure that those people are sentenced to death?
Is it because they are poor? Do you conclude, like Bush, that poor people are lazy people, therefore they are eligible for the death penalty?
35 - Don Hall
Two quick additions to the debate.
First, the article above is the first part of a seven part series of articles. The point of the series is to eventually explain why I believe each American citizen has a right to free and adequate healthcare.
Second, the purpose of part one was to establish that, in spite of what the Corporate Face of American Health Insurance spins through bought politicians and an unresponsive media, there is a crisis in our current system.
With all the sturm and drang in the comments to the article, my initial premise of this first part remains unchallenged. Whether you like Michael Moore or not, whether you think Cuba has a brilliant system or a crap system, whether you think Medicare is a successful system or a complete disaster, it stands without question - our current system of Healthcare for Profit is woefully inadequate and to ignore the problem in the wealthiest country on the planet is to be most stupid country as well.
36 - Clavos
"You are not allowed to go to Cuba for instance."
Not quite true, Les.
I even operated regularly scheduled charter Boeing 727 service between Miami and various Cuban cities during the nineties with full approval of, and a license from, the US Treasury Department's OFAC (Office of Foreign Assets Control)
What you are NOT allowed to do is travel to Cuba and spend money there. Michael Moore (and just about any US lefty who wants to) can travel there with no problem as long as the Cuban government pays for (or gives them free) their stay and meals, etc., while there. Actually, American right wingers can do the same, in theory. The trick is in getting the Cubans to pay for it. For that, you have to be a lefty.
All that notwithstanding, thousands of US citizens annually travel to Cuba with impunity by traveling first to Canada, Mexico, or the Bahamas, and then to Cuba. The Cuban government will even cooperate by not stamping their visa in your US passport.
For the record, I am NOT advocating such travel, I am merely reporting that it does happen. Such travel IS illegal for US citizens.
37 - Doug Hunter
Bliffle,
My costs would be much higher under UHC as I am a healthy and productive individual, just the type you wish to punish.
UHC = murder as well. Many people will die waiting for limited resources. At least private systems allow you to earn a better outcome, with UHC it's a crapshoot.
People will die regardless of the amount or level of healthcare. Considering the obesity problem in the US we have pretty good outcomes and lifespans to start out with. Additionally, we are a leader in the healthcare and pharmaceutical research industries which have contributed much to the rest of the world's health systems.
Also, please enlighten me as to why you believe people are poor? I'm always interested to hear why people have zero control over their own outcomes and how they're all victims of the environment.
38 - Clavos
"In comment #4 I have clearly shown that total medical costs would be reduced by UHC."
As I point out in #23, your conclusion (that it would be less expensive) is incorrect because it fails to take into account the corruption and inefficiency of the government.
39 - Les Slater
#33 Dave,
"And the first thing those doctors do when they get there is to try as hard as they can not to return to Cuba and find a way to defect to the US."
A small minority. This does not stop the Cuban government from sending them. The positive results far outweigh the negatives.
"Michael Moore went to Cuba and he doesn't seem to be in jail."
Even I have gone to Cuba, twice. The reality is that a lot fewer U.S. citizens are traveling there these days because of the threats of large fines. Many have paid the fines.
#36 Clovos,
"What you are NOT allowed to do is travel to Cuba and spend money there."
That's what they claim but this is no longer true. The 'fully hosted' category of licensing is no longer available.
This makes the whole claim that anyone can go there as long as they don't spend any money completely false.
Les
40 - Stephanie
I think the right to health care is covered under "the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
How can anyone sit here in the richest country on the planet, and say that we shouldn't have a system in place to make sure that everyone is taken care of, at a basic level at least. There was a story a few months ago about a boy who died when an abscessed tooth spread infection to his brain, because family's Medicaid had lapsed, and his mother couldn't find a dentist to see him under their state plan.
Why can't we have some centralized system in place that makes sure that people are covered at a basic level, rather than the extremely fragemented system we have now that forces people to jump through so many hoops and join so many different plans?
There's a big difference between switching to completely universal health care, and setting up a system that gives everyone basic coverage (out of taxes), and then allows individuals to purchase additional insurance. We are one of the only countries that runs health care through employers, which means that changing employers means changing plans, or losing coverage if you lose your job. Why do we have these employer-based plans? Because group coverage is cheaper. Couldn't those group plans be somehow switched from being based on your employer, to being groups that you join through the government and pay for with taxes, rather than through your employeers? Health care is a benefit that employeers pay - its part of your "salary" - instead, employeers pay you more $ directly, and that money would go either to taxes for health care, or into your pocket to pay premiums.
41 - Doug Hunter
"There's a big difference between switching to completely universal health care, and setting up a system that gives everyone basic coverage (out of taxes), and then allows individuals to purchase additional insurance."
We already have that and the effiminate types are still bawling. Hospitals treat those poor pieces of shit who have never done anything for anyone else on a daily basis. We already give to the leeches, the bleeding hearts just never see when enough is enough.
42 - Baronius
Bliffle (#34) - I think you missed my point, so I'm going to make it in the most over-exaggerated way possible.
The government can sit by and watch people die of easily-preventable diseases. It can kick up its heels and giggle while we die. Or, alternately, it can provide health care for us. The decision is up to us.
There is no right to health care. There is no government mandate for it. It may be cheaper and more efficient if federally-run (I doubt both), but that doesn't make it a right. That's all I'm saying here. When you declare something a human right, you'd better have some philosophical reason for doing so. With a civil right, you should probably put something in the Constitution, but either way it's a big deal.
Stephanie (#40) gave the best argument for health care as a right: the Declaration of Independence. But the right to liberty isn't universal - it's limited by the other guy's nose, for example. The right to life is limited by the draft and capital punishment. It seems a stretch to consider the right to life as including medical care. It certainly wasn't in the Founding Fathers' minds.
43 - alessandro Nicolo
"There just is no such thing as free and universal health care."
Give that man an award.
And can we stop talking about Cuba? Man, Cuba and Michael Moore. This is who you people look to to solve problems?
Save the Republic for real.
44 - Clavos
I stand (partially) corrected, Les.
While the rules have been tightened considerably since I was directly involved in travel to Cuba back in the nineties, nonetheless there are still a number of ways "persons subject to US jurisdiction" (because the rules apply to resident non-citizens as well) can travel there legally.
Below is the relevant part of 31CFR515.560, which outlines the classes of travelers who can currently travel there. As you can see, there are several very broad categories under which one can travel.
I too, traveled there a number of times (during the nineties), while operating the charters. I also spent the better part of a year in Cuba in 1958, during the last months of Fidel's revolution.
A quick check of the Miami Yellow Pages reveals dozens of companies engaged in providing legal travel to the island.
§ 515.560 Travel-related transactions to, from, and within Cuba by persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction.
(a) The travel-related transactions listed in paragraph (c) of this section may be authorized either by a general license or on a case-by-case basis by a specific license for travel related to the
following activities (see the referenced sections for the applicable general and specific licensing criteria):
(1) Visits to members of a person's immediate family (specific licenses) (see § 515.561);
(2) Official business of the U.S. government, foreign governments, and certain intergovernmental organizations (general license) (see § 515.562);
(3) Journalistic activity (general and specific licenses) (see § 515.563);
(4) Professional research (general and specific licenses) (see § 515.564);
(5) Educational activities (specific licenses) (see § 515.565);
(6) Religious activities (specific licenses) (see § 515.566);
(7) Public performances, athletic and other competitions, and exhibitions (specific licenses) (see § 515.567);
(8) Support for the Cuban people (specific licenses) (see § 515.574);
(9) Humanitarian projects (specific licenses) (see § 515.575);
(10) Activities of private foundations or research or educational institutes (specific licenses) (see § 515.576);
(11) Exportation, importation, or transmission of information or informational materials (specific licenses) (see § 515.545); and
(12) Certain export transactions that may be considered for authorization under existing Department of Commerce regulations and guidelines with respect to Cuba or engaged in by U.S.- owned or controlled foreign firms (specific licenses) (see §§ 515.533 and 515.559).
(b) Effective October 28, 2000, no specific licenses will be issued authorizing the travel-related transactions in paragraph (c) of this section in connection with activities other than those referenced
in paragraph (a) of this section.
The REAL question is why would anyone without family there would WANT to. Talk about tropical shitholes!
45 - Baronius
Bliffle and Stephanie, I should add that maybe future articles will explain why health care should be viewed as a right. At this point, the argument hasn't been made.
46 - bliffle
Lumpy, as usual, makes etravagant assertions without ANY evidence.
cf.: #20 " July 11, 2007 @ 22:46PM " Lumpy [URL]
47 - moonraven
Of course health care should be a right.
You don't have the right to be healthy?
What kind of society are you promoting?
That was a rhetorical question--I know the answer to be SOCIAL DARWINISM, based on one's income!
48 - Dave Nalle
"And the first thing those doctors do when they get there is to try as hard as they can not to return to Cuba and find a way to defect to the US."
A small minority. This does not stop the Cuban government from sending them. The positive results far outweigh the negatives.
A small minority? Last I heard there were more than 10,000 in Columbia and Bolivia looking for asylum somewhere and Castro's government was fairly pissed about it. That's not a small number by any definition.
You should try to put your loyalty to your comrades in Havana aside and do a web search for 'cuban doctors asylum'. You'll find stories from scores of countries of hundreds of Cuban doctors applying for asylum, mostly trying to get to the US.
Dave
49 - Les Slater
Dave,
I did a Google, below is one article:
From the NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...
Monday, March 12, 2007 3:12 p.m. EDT
Cuban Doctors in Limbo Seek Asylum in U.S.
"Last summer the Bush administration announced that any Cuban medical professional sent abroad by the communist regime was eligible for political asylum in the United States.
"As a result, dozens of Cuban healthcare workers sent to Venezuela sneaked across the border into Colombia, hoping to start a new life in America.
"But six months later, they are still in Colombia, unable to work, waiting for U.S. authorities to decide whether to accept them as political refugees, according to the Los Angeles Times."
This is more like what I understand. The claims that you make sound like you read too much fiction.
Just read that first paragraph. Can you support such an appeal? It is the lowest among lowlife that tries to rob a country of its health care system. Do you trip old ladies too?
Les
50 - Dr Dreadful
#44: Good grief, Clavos. First of all, if it's such a shithole, why does it have a thriving tourist industry (and I'm not talking about expats from Miami)?
Even more significantly, why exactly can't the US government just get the hell over itself and lift its goddamn sanctions on the place?
51 - Mike
There's a big difference between switching to completely universal health care, and setting up a system that gives everyone basic coverage (out of taxes), and then allows individuals to purchase additional insurance. We are one of the only countries that runs health care through employers, which means that changing employers means changing plans, or losing coverage if you lose your job. Why do we have these employer-based plans? Because group coverage is cheaper. Couldn't those group plans be somehow switched from being based on your employer, to being groups that you join through the government and pay for with taxes, rather than through your employeers? Health care is a benefit that employeers pay - its part of your "salary" - instead, employeers pay you more $ directly, and that money would go either to taxes for health care, or into your pocket to pay premiums.
Very enlightening, thanks. I never realized that the system was so complicated (me being in Canada). I'm sure as well that the economy is tied in with this; employers in the U.S. have this burden to carry? Maybe they look elsewhere because of this?
52 - moonraven
Hear, hear!
And notice how Nalle spins DOZENS into 10,000.
And he had them sneaking into a country that doesn't even exist: ColUmbia.
[Edited]
53 - Dave Nalle
MR according to the state department several hundred have already been given asylum in the US. That's hardly dozens. And they're only a fraction of the ones who are seeking asylum.
Dave
54 - bliffle
Wrong again, Senor Erroneous.
"#38 " July 12, 2007 @ 12:07PM " Clavos
"In comment #4 I have clearly shown that total medical costs would be reduced by UHC."
As I point out in #23, your conclusion (that it would be less expensive) is incorrect because it fails to take into account the corruption and inefficiency of the government."
I quoted the readily available figure of 3% as the gov cost, which includes admin and corruption. Compared to the 40% figure for private health ins. cos.
I suspect that you know very little about how these matters work at the macroscopic level, so I'll explain it to you in simple terms.
Every state in the USA that files medicaid/medicare claims to the US federal government is required by congressional law to employ some type of 'certified' or federally accepted form of software analysis (usually a pre-certified private enterprise proprietary program operated by a for-profit business) to analyse the databases accumulated and maintained by the states (these are necessarily in rather standardized form to accomodate industry standards for electronic billing).
I've worked on a couple of those software programs and they work very well. One salesperson I knew would regularly give sales seminars in which Live Data (!) would be used to uncover actual doctors and/or patients who were at that very moment CHEATING the system!
In one such software analysis we implemented an analysis and report product that revealed that the HEAD of the system in a prominent southern state was actively cheating the system in cooperation with some doctors. They are all in prison now. We knew that person as a cooperative and enthusiastic supporter of our analysis system. Imagine our surprise when she was revealed as a perpetrator!
Don't try to cheat the system. They will find you.
Consequently, we KNOW the depth of corruption in those systems that are open to software analysis as dictated by federal law. That's all public systems and most private systems (those that interact with medicare/medicaid). Some PRIVATE systems can escape that scrutiny, and thus have even higher levels of corruption.
The cost of corruption is borne by some kind of slushfund that is simply incorporated into overhead. We know that overhead for medicare is 3%. we know the overhead for private ins. cos. is about 40%.
The citizens of the USA are not benefited the cost savings of private enterprise because they are operated as oligopolies, with markets divided up among competitors by mutual (illegal, mostly) agreements, usually reached in secret (illegal) meetings.
Consequently, every year US citizens are ripped off for many billions of dollars by unscrupulous ins. cos. Although they are regularly fined 100s of million for their sins they are not sentenced to prison, and the fines are an excellent ROI.
55 - Les Slater
Again,
"Last summer the Bush administration announced that any Cuban medical professional sent abroad by the communist regime was eligible for political asylum in the United States."
This is the kind of scum fuck government that some people try to defend.
Les
56 - moonraven
Where's the beef, Nalle?
You just made up that State Department bullshit. Any old piece of pasta willdo for you--you sling it at the wall and hope it will stick.
Only one problem: You seem to have confused me with someone who thinks you know what you are talking about.
57 - Dave Nalle
This is the kind of scum fuck government that some people try to defend.
Les, i'm not really clear on how our government's willingness to welcome people who escape from one of the most oppressive regimes on the planet is a bad thing? were we 'scum fucks' for welcoming jews who fled nazi germany too?
dave
58 - Les Slater
Dave,
"were we 'scum fucks' for welcoming jews who fled nazi germany too?"
The problem was that the U.S. DID NOT WELCOME Jews fleeing nazi Germany.
Les
59 - moonraven
Right!
The Ship of the Damned--wasn't it?
And there are millions who do not consider Cuba to be repressive.
I consider The Decider and his henchmen to bemore repressive than Fidel--and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more stupid.
60 - Clavos
@#50, Dr. D:
Compared to a Mexico (3.5M tourists per quarter), or virtually any Caribbean nation except Haiti, tourism isn't really "thriving" in Cuba (2M per year), Doc, and it consists mostly of Canadians who would go to hell for a holiday...:>)
Here in Florida, we say that the Canadians arrive in the fall to stay the winter with a brand new shirt and a brand new $100 dollar bill, and they don't change either one all winter.
Years ago, tourists never saw the shithole part of Cuba, which is all of it except for the resorts. They were kept in their beautiful (Spanish and Canadian owned and operated, for the most part) resorts, from which, except for carefully vetted workers, Cuban citizens were barred.
In other words, Potemkin villages, Doc
The rules have relaxed somewhat in recent years, but the island's chief attraction then, as now, is that it's one of the least expensive destinations in the world (hence the Canadians).
Physically, the island is beautiful, no question. But, the tourists mostly only see what Fidel wants 'em to.
Remember, I've been there. I HAVE seen the non tourist parts. It's pretty sad and pathetic, really.
But it DOES have the world's largest collection of classic 50s American cars...
61 - Clavos
"And there are millions who do not consider Cuba to be repressive."
And yet fidel's subjects keep coming on a daily basis, taking enormous physical risks crossing the Straits of Florida to get away from it.
Wonder why??
62 - moonraven
The reason why the Cubans keep going to the US is because the US government PAYS them to do so--they are immediately given green cards and that means access to legal employment at wages far higher than in ANY country in Latin America.
63 - moonraven
This poster goes to the Middle east once a year for consulting gigs because she is paid big bucks to do so--not because she cannot tolerate the "repressive government in Mexico.
Get real.
64 - alessandro Nicolo
Dr. D - This is just my observations free of political theorizing. It may not be a "shithole" but close to it. What they did to Havana is a shame. It's a beautiful island with wonderful people (man, can those cats play music and play ball) but a relative and repulsive shithole thanks to that guy and his repugnant revolution.
I've always used a simple barometer in life. If you love a place so much would you live there? I know I wouldn't spend more than a week in Cuba. Let's put it another way, would we all welcome a Castro-type in our lives?
As for the sanctions, I'm no expert but the EU and Canada have been trading and investing in/with Cooba and send millions of tourists every year. So someone - I don't know who - is carpet bagging the island. Maybe the Americans should lift sanctions but to say they are the ones keeping the island poor seems a tad off to me. It's after all A COMMUNIST REGIME.
Les, if Bush and his admin. is scum what would that make Castro?
65 - Les Slater
"...if Bush and his admin. is scum what would that make Castro?"
I have a great respect for Castro. He certainly has much, much, much more respect in the world than Bush. I do not agree with him on all matters but he's much more honest and forthright than any U.S president in my lifetime.
I do not think Bush is stupid but I certainly would not trust him with ANYTHING.
66 - Clavos
Les,
"Last summer the Bush administration announced that any Cuban medical professional sent abroad by the communist regime was eligible for political asylum in the United States."
This is the kind of scum fuck government that some people try to defend."
I don't see anything wrong with that, especially in view of the fact that virtually ANY Cuban has been eligible for asylum since 1960.
67 - Clavos
"The reason why the Cubans keep going to the US is because the US government PAYS them to do so--they are immediately given green cards and that means access to legal employment at wages far higher than in ANY country in Latin America."
Yep, that's what they all say as soon as they get here, alright.
What horseshit you write, mr.
68 - Baronius
Moonraven, are you being facetious?
There can be no right to "be healthy", because we're mortal. No one is healthy for more than 75 years or so. A right is an inherent thing. The right to practice religion recognizes something about human nature; the right to "be healthy" stands at odds with human nature.
I'm not a social Darwinian for recognizing that humans get sick and die. I'm not advocating a society where the sick are killed. I'm saying that health care isn't a right.
As for the comment about Castro... words fail me. I can only assume that you're trying to shock us.
69 - Les Slater
Clavos,
"I don't see anything wrong with that, especially in view of the fact that virtually ANY Cuban has been eligible for asylum since 1960"
I think probably any country's citizens are eligible for asylum. It is the U.S. that refuses to give most Cubans any sort of visa to come to the U.S. There is a large backlog of applications at the U.S. Interests Section in Havana.
The U.S. uses radio and television broadcasts to encourage Cubans to come to the U.S. but does not let them come here legally for the most part.
Since 1966, the 'Cuban Adjustment Act' encourages Cubans to come here by illegal means. The history has been that even if they hijack a plane and kill the pilot or other crew, they are welcomed here and not charged. The equipment that they stole is not returned to Cuba. There is no other similar act that applies to any other country.
Les
70 - Les Slater
Baronius,
"A right is an inherent thing"
Like the right for workers to form unions and strike? Like the right of women to vote?
Inherent maybe, but not usually recognized as such before a struggle to gain such.
Les
71 - Lumpy
Les the laws of an oppressive government to control the movement of their population really don't need to be honored by other nations which value freedom.
72 - Les Slater
Lumpy,
Are you referring to my #69 above? If so I do not see how your #71 is any answer to it.
We are not talking about laws of other nations here. Do you think Cuba or any other nation has a right to send people to countries that require a visa but have not issued one? Cuba is respecting the U.S.'s sovereignty by refusing to allow their citizens to come to the U.S. without proper documentation.
It is the U.S. that is encouraging Cubans to take a dangerous journey to get to the U.S. dry land. Many have died in the attempt. It is criminal to encourage such. It is part of makes the U.S. government scum fuckers.
Les
73 - Dave Nalle
Like the right for workers to form unions and strike?
So Les. If I agree that the right to form unions is a natural extension of the right to assemble freely, will you agree that workers have an absolute right not to be required to join a union to hold a specific job, and that when they are in a union they have the right not to let their dues be used for political purposes without their consent?
dave
74 - Les Slater
Dave,
"...will you agree that workers have an absolute right not to be required to join a union to hold a specific job..."
No, I said FORM unions, not JOIN unions. Unions are a class entity, not just an ad hoc collection of individuals.
Les
75 - Clavos
Les #72,
Why is it that the Cubans who undertake that perilous voyage never mention that? And even if the US IS denying them visas why in hell are they so anxious to come here? They live in paradise, don't they?
They've got free health care which is much superior to US health care, they are taken care of from cradle to grave by their government, they are allowed to say and do what they want, travel anywhere they want, live anywhere. They are provided with free schooling all the way through college, etc., etc.
Is there a reason to come here when where you live is so much a better place than US?
Les, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, I have too much respect for your sincerity to do that, and I know you know I don't believe all of the malarkey in the above paragraphs, but I've seen that and more espoused by (mostly left leaning) Americans on this blog as well as those, like Michael Moore, with a much larger pulpit.
If all of that were true, common sense tells me that the traffic would all be in the opposite direction, but we all know it's not. People don't risk their lives to escape a place that is a good home, even if the US is denying them visas.
And mr's claim that they're coming here to work, like the Mexicans, is so much bullshit; the Mexicans risk practically nothing (with some occasional exceptions, mostly at the hands of coyotes) to come here, not even deportation, most of them.
Algo no cuadra, Les.