Most, if not all, states in this country - that being the gool old US of A - have long offered what are referred to as "vanity" auto license plates on which purchasers can request the plate's "number" be a particular word, short phrase, or some other combination of letters and numbers significant of something or other as long as the message is not obscene or considered to be otherwise offensive. These messages are usually limited to no more than seven digits or letters. Now, many states offer "specialty" plates that promote a wide variety of things such as state colleges and universities, charitable causes, sports teams, arts organizations, the environment, and so on. Normally, a portion of the collected fee goes to benefit the respective organization or cause.
Recently here in good old Indiana, Woody Burton, a state legislator, led a successful effort to make available a plate with the legend "In God We Trust" stamped upon it. They were approved a few months ago and have proven to be wildly popular here in the bible belt with over five hundred thousand of them now bolted to the backside of the family sedan or pickup. While given my godless perspective I find these plates somewhat offensive, I thought, what the hell? Who gives a crap? It isn't a battle worth fighting. I know that to actively oppose the plate would lead to the inevitable charge that, if I am so offended by the phrase, I should stop carrying and using US currency upon which the odious phrase has long been emblazoned. (Actually, I don't use much cash now owing to the widespread ability to use debit cards for pretty much everything.) But, at any rate, I thought, let it be.
However, an enterprising fellow in Allen County, Indiana, one Mark Studler persuaded the ICLU, Indiana's arm of the national ACLU, to file suit on his behalf against the state as regards these very plates. The legal issue at hand is not the plate per se, but the fact that they have been made available to anyone wanting them at no additional charge over and above the normal fee the state charges for license plates, while all other specialty plates sold in Indiana have an additional $15 administrative fee tacked onto them. It is Studler's and the ICLU's contention that either all specialty plates be charged the fee, or none of them should be so charged. I agree.
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— go to most recent comments1 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I'm amused at your presumption that only Christians believe in G-d. Beyond that, all I've learned is that the ICLU, and its sick parent, the ACLU, are no longer worthy of any American's support.
2 - Joe
If Indiana has enthusiastic promoters and like minded constituents then STFU. Sorry to offend your tender sensibilities.
For you, Baritone, we'll make an exception. You can have "small potatoes" branded on your forehead.
3 - Baritone
Ruvy,
I made no such presumption either in the above posting, nor anywhere else. Where you got that notion, I can't imagine.
I am well aware that there are millions, nay hundreds of millions, of Muslims and Jews around our little planet who are equally deluded into believing in a god.
As to the ACLU, thank god for its existence. There has to be some means to curb the excesses of the religious community.
Joe is of course a shining example of christian charity and love for his fellow man.
Why the hell should christians get a pass? Are christians, just by virtue of their religiosity more worthy than, say cancer research? What a load of crap.
Baritone
4 - Clavos
As to the ACLU, thank god for its existence. There has to be some means to curb the excesses of the religious community.
And/or the government. The freedom of the American people has no greater threat.
5 - Robert Herrick
Friends,
We all know this is a religion issue (primarily Christian). If it weren't people wouldn't be so upset about it.
Unfortunately, because the Supreme Court ruled that motto constitutionally acceptable, I suspect the lawsuit will fail.
If it fails, it will be because of religious sensitivities but the courts have a loophole to justify their rulings.
But I'm with you man, get those embarassingly stupid phrases out of my government!
Best Wishes.
Robert
6 - Baritone
Our government is truly a dangerous brew at this juncture. It is largely filled with ultra right wing neo-cons with an admixture of wacko theocratic christians being only lightly diluted by the generally weak-kneed middle of the road democrats.
Baritone
7 - Clavos
The legislative branch is largely filled with lawyers, the worst possible group to be holding the reins of power.
And on the non-elected side, it's filled with millions and millions of overpaid non-productive bureaucrats.
Both groups with their hands perennially in our pockets.
8 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Baritone
I made no such presumption either in the above posting, nor anywhere else. Where you got that notion, I can't imagine.
Try the title.
9 - Baritone
Ruvy,
If you look at the make up of the Indiana legislature and the over-whelming majority of the citizens of Indiana, you would find that virtually all are christians of one ilk or other. Jews, muslims and people of other or no faith make up less than 5% of the population in the Hoosier state. As the "perks" in question are only available to people licensing vehicles in Indiana, I believe that the title is apt. It does not in any way assume or indicate that christians have the corner on the "god" market.
Excluding Palestinians, which many Israelis would like to do, what percentage of your population are non-Jews? If you had written a similar piece naming only Jews as the beneficiaries, few would challenge it as you have my little offering.
Baritone
10 - zingzing
everybody's missing the entire issue here. ruvy wants to bash you because the title of your peice isn't "the 'perks' of being a christian, muslim, jew or [name your own god-believing, non-christian, non-muslim, non-jewish religion here] in the state of indiana]." Robert Herrick wants to make this into an issue of church and state... and he may be closer than he thinks.
if the state starts taking money for drivers to proclaim where they stick their trust (i.e.--the sky), then that's a violation. as it stands, christians (and all those indiana jews and muslims) get a free ride. so what do you do? i dunno.
i'm sure the aclu will make this into a case of church and state as well. but if ruvy thinks that the aclu has outlived its usefulness, maybe he should check out all the ways that the aclu protects freedom of religion. maybe he should actually do a little bit of searching into all the things the aclu does that DOESN'T make the news. religious freedom isn't their only cause, you know.
people can be soooo dumb.
11 - JC Mosquito
Do they still make license plates in prisons down there? Maybe you should be able to get the plate at no extra charge if you've actually visited the imprisoned like you're supposed to do.
12 - Baritone
Zinging,
Of course the separation thing pops up at every whip-stitch (just a little down home colloquialism.) That is, I believe implied in the last graph of my post. God is truly in the details. They chip away, a little here, a little there. The theocrats are nothing if not tenacious. They have the patience of Osama but they don't (by and large) live in caves.
JC,
Our fine prison population may still be in the license plate business, I frankly don't know. We just had a prison incident yesterday. It seems our privatized prisons contracted with the State of Arizona to import approximately 1200 of their convicted overflow to a facility near New Castle, IN. About 600 or so have been brought here to date. Well, it seems that things are different here in the Hoosier state than out in the mesas. Prisoners in Indiana can't smoke, nor can they have "men's magazines." We wouldn't want to despoil their lungs or their minds with nicotine and smut, now would we?
Well, these gentlemen took exception to all that by smacking around a couple of guards and burning their mattresses in the prison yard. That'll show em, by god!
Sleep tight fellas.
Baritone
13 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"Excluding Palestinians, which many Israelis would like to do, what percentage of your population are non-Jews? If you had written a similar piece naming only Jews as the beneficiaries, few would challenge it as you have my little offering."
Eventually, we will get around to excluding the Arabs from the country, Baritone.
But leaving that point aside, the reason you wouldn't challenge me is because there is only ONE single solitary Jewish state on the face of the earth. How many Christian countries are there? About 70 or more? How many Moslem countries are there? Forty or more? While it is true that about 95 percent of Indiana's population is Christian of one flavor or another, Indiana doesn't advertise itself as a/the Christian state - unlike Israel which does advertise itself as the Jewish state.
Capisce?
14 - Baritone
Ruvy,
So, what's your point? My problem with all of the god stuff that goes on in the US is that there are any number of people who would like nothing more than to make this a christian nation.
Frankly, I don't care to live in a christian state any more than I would want to live in a muslim state or even a jewish state for that matter. I don't want to be governed by someone's interpretation of what they believe some mythical god intructs to do.
In my perspective Jews are no less deluded than any other believers. It is religion, christianity, islam, judaism and others which divide us more than anything else. Religion is has historically been the source of violence, pain, suffering and death on a monumental scale. What good has come from any religious traditions is far outweighed, in my opinion, by the hideous evil it has wrought against humanity.
Baritone
15 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
My point is and was that I'm amused at your presumption that only Christians believe in G-d. This I pulled from the title.
I'm not happy at what the ICLU doing either, but as I do not live in Indiana, in the final analysis, I don't really give a shit.
16 - zingzing
ruvy, it's more amusing that you presumed a presumption. nothing in baritone's essay even came close to saying that only christians believe in god. not one bit. and you know that by pulling your entire point from the title of an essay, you're really presuming a lot about the contents of that essay.
as it goes, i don't really think this is much of an issue. it might be better just to leave it alone. putting something on the back of your car really doesn't matter to anyone.
17 - MBD
"Religion is has historically been the source of violence, pain, suffering and death on a monumental scale"
Wrong.
Religion doesn't cause suffering and death. It is the misinterpretation of religion and the manipulation of religion by demagogues that causes problems.
The teachings of the Bible attest to this.
18 - A Concerned Citizen
MBD is right. Most religions teach peace. It's when money and political power come into play that those in power manipulate a religion (or lack thereof) and make bad things happen.
19 - A Concerned Citizen
Constantine, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and numerous others.
20 - Doug Hunter
"Religion doesn't cause suffering and death."
Good point. Many of the greatest genocides were carried out by atheists from the extreme left, communists in particular. When you consider the small minority of leaders that have been atheists in history the facts indicate just the opposite of what anti-religous leftists would have you believe.
21 - Doug Hunter
Oh, and the special plates with 'in god we trust' should have the same $15 fee as every other specialty plate. Churches should not receive special treatment, either positive or negative, from the government. If a baseball team can have a plate then I see no reason the nutty christoids can't.
22 - Arch Conservative
"Beyond that, all I've learned is that the ICLU, and its sick parent, the ACLU, are no longer worthy of any American's support."
Welcome to the party Captain Obvious. You're really just figuring this out now Ruvy?
All the lefties can say is how the founding father's intent in the 1st amendment was to prevent the government from endnosring a single religion. That is only half right. The other intention of the 1st amendment was to make it so that citizens could express their religion without fear of being sileneced by another party in any way (ie the aclu filing lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit to prevent religious expression)
The public expression of religion act was just passed in the house and is awaiting a vote in the senate. the act would make it illegal for shakedown artists like the aclu who routinely twist the constitution to advance their anti american agenda to collect attorney fees for bullshit lawsuits..
Here's hoping it passess.
23 - Baritone
Ah yes. Religion causes no suffering or death. And guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Right wing christian bullshit!
Every right wing christian damns all atheists with Stalin. They usually throw Hitler in the godless mix as well. Of course, Hitler was no atheist. He simply hated the catholic church, although he was raised as a catholic. But he was a believer.
Stalin on the other hand was an atheist. Tis true. Tis pity, tis true. Stalin was also a communist, and he was also a paranoid megalomaniac. His atheism had little to do with his being a mass murderer. Also, keep in mind that communism simply substituted the state for god.
Millions more people have been slaughtered in the name of one god or other than those killed by Stalin and Hitler combined. And millions of those were slaughtered in the name of the christian god. The catholic church was very efficient at mass murder.
Hell, god killed or ordered the death of several hundreds of thousands of people in the old testament alone. Just out of spite! He could really be pissy.
Why does the ACLU file lawsuit after lawsuit? Because christians insist on shoving their religious crap down everybody's throat. American right wing christians are the 21st century's new Fascists. They brainwash their children into little jesus loving, bible thumping automatons. Watch the movie Jesus Camp. They have no minds of their own. They are not even allowed to grow up and make their own decisions. All of that is taken from them before they are old enough to understand what's happening to them, or to bitch about it. Mommy and daddy are so proud!
Right wing, fundamentalists are narrow minded, self-righteous hate mongers praying to their loving god for a theocratic utopia where everyone is given the choice of either accepting jesus christ as their lord and saviour or they can die and be consigned to hell for eternity. Hell of a choice, huh?
Hey, who'da thunk it? A license plate brought out all this vitriol. What if this had been a "meaningful" issue? We'd be chosing weapons by now.
Baritone
24 - MBD
"Right wing, fundamentalists are narrow minded, self-righteous hate mongers"
I won't disagree as long as they act warlike as they are doing now in the Middle East.
But don't confuse their politics with what they should be doing if they really were acting as Christians.
"And guns don't kill people, people kill people."
Right.
I never heard of a gun jumping up off the floor or up off a table and firing away at someone. Has anyone seen this?
And speaking of "narrow minded, self-righteous hate mongers", you do quite well yourself as an unmitigated frothing-at-the-mouth liberal who goes ballistic over a license plate.
25 - Clavos
But don't confuse their politics with what they should be doing if they really were acting as Christians.
Damn few of them do act as christians these days.