Socialism has benefited every industrialized democracy on earth...except for America.
"The times, they are a-changin'"...…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Socialism has benefited every industrialized democracy on earth...except for America.
"The times, they are a-changin'"...…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Christopher Rose
There's Dave too, of course.
You're not going all even-handed on me are you zingzing? Not sure I could cope after the troll's mysterious conversion, not that that was even-handed, but a weird metamorphosis nevertheless.
77 - Baronius
Christopher, maybe it was Irene's open mind that led her to believe in her "god". Maybe the Bible is the end of an intellectual's journey, rather than the beginning of a moron's.
78 - zingzing
chris, just because i don't name names doesn't mean i haven't gone soft. wait. "i have gone soft." i think. wait. i haven't gone soft! fucking negatives.
ahem... there were just too many names to name.
socialism is certainly a stepping stone to communism, but it's a long, long step. and that would be like saying capitalism is a stepping stone to personal riches.
fuck the right wing! happy now?
79 - Christopher Rose
Baronius, much as you'd like it to be, no it wasn't and no it isn't.
80 - Christopher Rose
"socialism is certainly a stepping stone to communism". Right, if milk is a stepping stone to drug addiction.
I don't have a problem with capitalism or personal riches. Money is just a kind of energy really, no big deal. Personally, I just need more
energymoney!81 - zingzing
well, used to be i couldn't live without milk, now i can't live without my smack! oh, gimme some. mmm, mmm. that's the... stu... ffff. f.
82 - Cindy D
RE: #51 and #52 Dawn and Lisa
Please have a look at Reverend Wright's "chickens coming home to roost" comment in context .
The sermon is in this 10 minute video. Nothing in this sermon was captured for me by the media, inclding Huffington Post. I think you might be surprised.
83 - Lisa Solod Warren
Yes, Cindy, I have actually heard that sermon before, but I watched it again. So, I wasn't surprised. What do you want me to say? I think he said some powerful things, actually. Incendiary, perhaps. But with truth in them, too.
See my post #58.
84 - Ruvy
At #54.
Glenn,
As you may have noticed, I've stayed away from this forum for a bit. This had nothing to do with my opinions, links or anything to do with them; it has to do with living life, which occasionally requires sawing one's derierre from the chair in front of the computer and getting about and to places that are not accessible to computers (if you don't have the $300 hand-held jobbies).
It's after 04:30 in the morning here, and I just finished an editing session, after running around from 07:00 the previous morning, chasing assorted wild geese in our fair capital. A bit of a long day, in other words.
I'm going to leave the links question for now, simply because I am a bit tired.
85 - Cindy D
Les,
Some people here don't seem to understand what communism is. I'm too tired to explain it.
And to the rest:
I see Marxism as a subcategory of socialism. Marx's special understanding, if you will.
I don't read much Marx directly. Although I respect much of his work, indirectly.
The Bolsheviks took over Russia. They betrayed the Communist ideas. They called themselves "The Communist Party".
Good for them. Now no one understands Communism. Like no one understands what classical liberalism was really about.
Time for bed.
86 - Franco
#78 " zingzing
socialism is certainly a stepping stone to communism
Thank you zingzing. You are up on your Marx.
However the length of the step being long or short is all a matter of the degree of the socialist incline a people are set on, and then further effected by a variety of other political and economic and natural occurrences that increases its incline. Once started in builds its own incline and becomes harder to keep in check, and thus lies our discussion/debate.
However, what is not in debate is what is so butt ugly about the slip from socialism into communism, for whatever reason, once in communism, it is next to impossible to get out. The means, the tools, the resources are all in the state hands, leaving the people nothing in means to get out and a state that prevents people from organizing for even protesting.
The Berlin wall only came down a little over 20 years ago. The fact that there was a wall there to hold the people in, says it all. Just look at the two Koreas. I ask you, even given our capitalist economic nightmare right now, which of these two would you choose the live in. And note that you have a choose, the those living in the north do not.
So the real debate is why increase something that operates ever so more closely to the bottomless pit, when freedom and personal property rights are protected and capitalism can fulish and produce so much more comforts of life, and the worst pit of capitalism is greed, that can be more easily controlled then the slip from socialism to communism. I mean, why even consider risking it when the free market can bring so much to so many wihtout that risk.
87 - Cindy D
Wait. Maybe I could say Marx is envisioning the "perfect" socialism. At any rate, if we had true Communism country, as per Marx...we would all be rejoicing.
Communism isn't evil. State communism, State Socialism, State Capitalism (what we have now) is.
88 - Cindy D
Franco,
You are up on your ummm, what should I call it?...your propaganda (as usual).
89 - zingzing
franco: "why even consider risking it when the free market can bring so much to so many wihtout that risk."
because sometimes it doesn't bring enough to enough.
it brings just about enough, but not quite. a little socialism, like a little salt, isn't going to kill anyone, but it'll make life tastier for many.
life is good, for the most part, under capitalism. but, it's not anywhere near perfect. i think we can inject a little bit of socialism, some idea of it that we can keep firmly in check, and it will benefit the many (while pissing off a few) that need the benefits it can bring. of course, it won't make life perfect. just a little bit easier.
i don't think taking a step towards a cliff means you're going to jump off it. and socialism is a long way from said cliff. and the view is better from just a little closer.
wow. too many metaphors.
90 - STM
Cindy, I have to comment here: a bit of more equitable social engineering will only take America CLOSER to the point the other western democracies reached years ago.
I can only speak for Down Under, but we do love our (almost) free universal health care. It's of a very high standard, but offers a choice component. It didn't send the health insurance funds broke: they just invented more cover - gym memberships, alternative medicine, dental etc.
There's a bizarre mindset in America that says it's OK to spend billions upon billions on a military that probably doesn't need it any more given the changed nature of the conflicts its involved in, but that it's a huge drama to spend a fraction of that amount making sure Americans don't die waiting for treatment or go bankrupt getting an appendix taken out.
I'd be really bummed off if the taxes I paid every week weren't going to universal healthcare and were being snapped up instead by the military. I genuinely don't understand Americans who think that's the better use of their taxes.
All I can say is, under a genuine social democracy that delivers good disposable incomes to workers and legislates for great workplace conditions, we are indeed happy little possums down in this piece of paradise on the edge of the Pacific.
And don't anyone get the idea that we don't work or have no work ethic ... we work our tits off.
But we know - for certain - that the people who deliver the profits to industry and big business are the workers. We create their wealth.
I don't have any issues at all expecting that I should be able to share in that.
What Americans regard as socialism, we call community ... we're all in this together, let's look after each other.
Instead of: I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off my stack.
91 - handyguy
Thanks, Cindy. The full text of the "God damn America" sermon is nearby on YouTube as well.
I'm not a follower of Rev Wright, but I am an admirer - I find his words stirring and, to say the least, thought-provoking.
Before anyone makes a definitive comment about him or his rhetoric, they should watch at least one of these unedited clips.
92 - Bennett
zingzing, #89, damn close to "exactly!"
except for the last line.
93 - Bennett
and #90 STM. Sir, You make a strong point for moving down there! (carefully avoiding the word 'under').
94 - Ruvy
Cindy,
Wait. Maybe I could say Marx is envisioning the "perfect" socialism. At any rate, if we had true Communism country, as per Marx...we would all be rejoicing.
Oy, such an idealist. I makes me almost wet in me eye. Marx was a reasonably good analyst - but sitting in those London libraries with the horse trolleys going by made him ignore certain realities of building societies - like road building and infrastructure. His blind Russian followers built factories - and only later considered how they would get there.... And the blind followers of the Russians - except the Jews in Israel - made all the same mistakes.
Also, much that he wrote ignored basic (or base) human nature. Socialist organizations must be voluntary to have any real chance of success. This was one of the conditions forced on early Jewish socialists trying to build a society here. Too often "dictatorships of the proletariat" forgot the proletariat in short order, remaining only dictatorships.
The kibbutzim (for example) succeeded here originally for two reasons: the first was that they either had seed support from overseas in terms of capital - BUT THEN HAD TO STICK TO A BUSINESS PLAN AND BUDGET. The second was they were voluntary.
Most of the kibbutzim later failed because their boys had a hand in the till and could extend the kibbutzim bank loan atop bank loan, continually bailing out cooperative societies that needed less and less to actually stick to a profitable business plan. When the Labor party got kicked out, the banks started calling in the loans bit by bit, slowly bankrupting institutions that had long since scrapped living on a budget or considering how they would make money.
Fiscal conservatism is a the basis for any successful socialist operation - even in Australia!
95 - Lisa Solod Warren
STM
Well, that is just the point, isn't it?
But here we are, offering "socialism" to the rich and leaving the middle class and the poor once again out in the cold. Spending huge amounts on the military (and private military contractors, who wasted millions and millions) and then saying health care (even for children) is too expensive. And now we are forced to cut education!!!! because the country is going down the tubes, but AIG gets another 85 billion.
And no one thinks this is stupid?
I do.
96 - Cindy D
RE # 83
Lisa,
Sorry, I had not read down the column. Didn't read handy or your post after that. I was mostly thinking of Dawn's concern. I see now that is not a concern for you.
97 - Cindy D
Franco: ...the free market can bring so much to so many...
There is no free market--its myth, imagination.
One thing I like about you Franco. You seem to be willing to devote time to making an argument, and because of this I assume you do your research. However, in order to make a reasonable argument, one would need to look at information on both sides of the aisle. Wouldn't you agree?
So, don't believe me. Instead, remember this guy's name: John Kenneth Galbraith. He is Milton Friedman's contemporary. He was an adviser to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK, Clinton. He saw what Friedman did not see. He warned us about what he saw. Unfortunately, he died in 2006. He would have had a lot to say about today's economy.
So, here are two very brief articles for your perusal. The first will contrast Galbraith and Friedman:
John Kenneth Galbraith understood capitalism as lived - not as theorized
The second will explain what I mean when I say we do not have free markets. But it's much, much worse, we have private industry controlling government.
He outlines how economists, economic and political scholars, perpetrate a sort of deception whether conveniently or deliberately. I'll quote two paragraphs.
Free Market Fraud - the myth of capitalism
Let's begin with capitalism, a word that has gone largely out of fashion. The approved reference now is to the market system. This shift minimizes--indeed, deletes--the role of wealth in the economic and social system. And it sheds the adverse connotation going back to Marx. Instead of the owners of capital or their attendants in control, we have the admirably impersonal role of market forces. It would be hard to think of a change in terminology more in the interest of those to whom money accords power. They have now a functional anonymity.
(snip)
Take the common outcry about corporate welfare. Here the private firm, as it is called, receives a public subsidy for its product or service. But what is called corporate welfare is a minor detail. Far more important is the full-fledged takeover by private industry of public decision-making and government spending.
98 - Glenn Contrarian
STM #90 -
I agree with you 100%. That was PRECISELY my point in my original article, but you said it better than I did - it's not truly socialism as Marx (who did NOT invent the idea) envisioned it, but a sense of 'community' rather than 'I got mine'.
And Tasmania is - next to Hawaii - the most beautiful place I've seen on Earth. The climate is a lot like here in Puget Sound in Washington state...but the biggest shock was finding a sequoia tree there! I had thought they were only in northern California....
99 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave #67 -
Do you think Lutherans are Christian? If so, try looking up how majority-Lutheran Germany supported Hitler and how they certainly didn't resist his attacks on the Jews.
And then there's Rwanda - before the Rwandan genocide, Rwanda was touted as the 'most Christian nation in Africa'. Of those who espoused Christianity there, at least half were Catholic.
As I'm sure you know, there's many, many more examples I could bring against both Catholic and protestant believers.
If you share the same religious beliefs as any church whose members have supported and engaged in atrocities, then you are either ignorant of the history of mainstream 'Christianity' or you believe that the Church that Jesus founded was so fallible that millions of its members would be party to genocide.
Sorry, Dave, I know that's harsh - but that's the reality of the history of mainstream 'Christianity'. As for myself, I am certainly Christian...but I doubt my beliefs are the same as yours.
100 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave - one more thing - I've seen some indication, but not absolute proof, that unlike their Catholic and protestant countrymen, Rwandan Muslims did NOT participate in the genocide.
It was a few years ago on afrol.com, the African News site, and I cannot vouch for that site's integrity.
101 - Lisa Solod Warren
#99 Agreed.
Dave, really. "ideological disciplies," indeed. When the Catholic church JUST apologized for its complicity in World War II? Gimme a break...
Christians of all stripes have been ideological discipiples for centuries. You know that, you are just in denial. Doesn't mean ALL. Just means that there's been more than enough death and destruction in Christ's name to go around.... The Inquisistion, The Crusades...you name it.
Not to mention the Bible thumpers today who think that anyone who is a non-believer, a homosexual, etc. deserves to go to hell. Not to mention those who bomb abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who perform abortions.
Nothing Jesus, if he existed at all as Christians paint him--as a man of peace and love--would have condoned at all. He would, in fact, have been competely horrified.
102 - Dr Dreadful
Blimey, I step away for half a day...
Sorry to backtrack, but:
Baronius @ #68: Your caricature is unworthy of you. The Republicans I've spoken to are not by any means 'crazy religious zealots'. What's more, neither you nor Irene are anything of the kind, and if you read on I'll explain why.
(And as far as generosity to one's opponents goes, the respective reactions of Obama's and McCain's supporters when the other candidate was mentioned in the election night speeches says it all!)
Chris @ #71: You're not being fair to Irene. The difference between her and the type of fundamentalist Glenn and I were talking about is that Irene (and, yes, Baronius too) has recognized apparent discrepancies between what her Bible says and the way the universe actually operates, and has sought to reconcile the two. We may disagree with her conclusions, but we must acknowledge that she has made the intellectual effort.
A fundamentalist, in contrast, will read a Bible verse, observe the piece of reality which contradicts it, and reject the reality out of hand.
103 - Clavos
Ruvy #94:
Spot on. Excellent analysis.
104 - Christopher Rose
I disagree Doc. Monotheism is either true or it isn't. Based on the evidence, I think it is false. It follows therefore that all the fruits of it are equally fake.
I see it as a cruel deception against humanity that serves only to cause friction and obscure the potential for a more real spirituality based on and in the actual universe we occupy.
105 - Matthew T. Sussman
You're supposed to ping me when we get into religious debates, especially when Christopher Rose is involved. I almost missed the start of this one!
106 - Les Slater
The theoretical conclusions of the Communists are in no way based on ideas or principles that have been invented, or discovered, by this or that would-be universal reformer.
They merely express, in general terms, actual relations springing from an existing class struggle, from a historical movement going on under our very eyes. The abolition of existing property relations is not at all a distinctive feature of communism.
All property relations in the past have continually been subject to historical change consequent upon the change in historical conditions.
The French Revolution, for example, abolished feudal property in favour of bourgeois property.
The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.
In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
107 - Jet
I don't know why everyone insists on taking so much space to say simply, the GOP hangs on desparately to Religious Zealots because they're the only (until now) dependable voting bloc they have.
Over the years, the GOP has conned the Fundamentalists into believing that if they vote their ticket, they'll support their twisted born-again agenda.
Now that they've proven otherwise, the same block is deserting them in droves.
Today Sarah Palin stated that (following in Bush's footsteps) when God shows her the political doorway with which she is to step through, she'll step forward to lead our country.
I guess she forgot that the electorate has already shown her the door!
Of course that's only my opinion.
108 - Al Barger
I had thought that the rules were that basically you can say pretty much any damn thing to beat up the president. I just know that Dawn is going to be having an awfully mad four years if she's going to choose to be Deeply Offended by anybody who says anything about obama that anyone might even could choose to take as "racist." That's cool. I mean, whatever gets you off and all.
I guess that also means that I shouldn't mention how intrigued I am in the weird current context by the idealistic 70s Tom T Hall song about "The Monkey That Became President." I note that both the bigots and integrationists supported him. That's not just bipartisan, but bi-species.
And the lion shall lie down with the lamb as The One heals the planet.
Good luck with that.
109 - Caranza
Palin will be back. Don't doubt that for a moment. Her time is coming. She's too smart and too ambitious to be held back.
And as for racism, it's already quite clear what the tactic is going to be. Say something negative about Obama and you get smeared as a racist. Even if Obama is burning the Constitution and eating the flesh of children, if you mention it in the media or from any public position you will be branded a racist and destroyed.
Learn to love the new America. And that knock on your door is agents of Obama's new Department of Civil Security who are here to take you to a quiet camp somewhere to reeducate you out of your racism.
110 - Ruvy
You're a bit late to the party, Al. I too, am surprised by the strength of Dawn's reactions, and agree with you that the next four years will be difficult ones for her.
HerYour new overlord is going to get a lot of criticism as the hope disappears when people see the real face of change in your land. My comments, condemnatory as they seem now, will be mild as real pain spreads throughout America - and George Bush isn't there to take the blame.That assumes that Obama is indeed allowed to take the oath on 20 January next, and that the results of the election on 4 November are not set aside, two separate possibilities entirely. Had not 200,000 Israelis cooperated with an illegal expulsion of their fellow Jews from Gush Qatif three years ago, I would be far more willing to assume a regular precession of events. The expulsion of fellow citizens from their homes with barely any compensation by a hostile government, backed by a hostile media, taught me that the regular procession of events - against the word of a man who said that "Nevé Dekalim was a much part of Israel as is Tel Aviv" - is not necessarily what will occur, and I'm willing to give credence to the possibility of events being thrown into a different course entirely.
There is a hearing on issues concerning Obama's place of birth before Chief Justice Sauter on 1 December, and while I don't really care about the outcome, the fact that Barry Obama is hiding his birth certificate and using the Hawaiian justice system as his g-string is most suspicious. Justice Sauter would not hear these allegations on certiorari if they were nonsense and not worth listening to at all. The vast majority of applications to the Supreme Court, whether as cases or on certiorari, wind up rejected. Any attorney worth his salt will tell you that.
If Justice Sauter did not see something worth looking at in these allgations, he would refuse to hear them at all. He is a judge, not an idiot, and while I may disagree with some of his views, he does follow the basic concepts of jurisprudence traditional in English and American law.
111 - Lisa Solod Warren
There is no Justice Sauter.
It is Justice Souter. Show proof.
112 - Dawn
Ruvy, since you kept pressing this non-issue about Obama's birth place and citizenship, I decided to hunt it down. Outcome: B.S., debunked, nonsense, wasteful ridiculousness. Watch as it gets ignored like many of the other piles of nonsense being flung at Obama just to see what sticks.
I will continue to ignore Al, as it's always best to ignore the willfully ignorant and backwards.
And Cindy pointed to a video which she believed to support some negative claims about Rev. Wright.
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't blame Obama for the blatant hatefulness of Rev. Wright, anymore than I blame all Republicans for the viciousness of a select, but especially, pathetic few.
Ruvy, while I totally disagree with virtually EVERY single thing you've ever said in regards to Obama, I think you are a smart fellow.
Let's agree to disagree.
I refuse to get worked up over politics, I've lost way too many cool people in my life over petty matters.
One final point I'd like to make. I don't consider criticism of Obama as racist, unless of course it is. Criticism of his policies and administrative agenda is expected and encouraged in a healthy democracy. Unfortunately, a lot of what I am hearing from the less intelligent conservatives (not necessarily those on this site) is out and out blatant racism.
Also, monkey references made in conjunction with African-Americans have had a known racial component for many decades now. Just ask poor Howard Cosell.
113 - Jet
Maybe after all the belittling from the majority and most vocal right-wing of this website, we have the right to shove it right back in your faces that YOU WERE FUCKING WRONG AND WE WERE RIGHT.
You problems seem to be that you can dish it out but you can't take it Al, Franco, Clavos and your like-minded arogant company
Not only that, but you refuse to acknowledge you were wrong and intend to keep refusing to face reality that there's a new order in Washington that isn't obligated to kiss the collective asses of likeminded people like you.
We may overreact a little, not that we've been PROVEN right-which we have, but it's not like we've been provoked over the last two years.
and you know it.
114 - Clavos
I don't blame Obama for the blatant hatefulness of Rev. Wright
I like Wright. He's the only voice in the land really speaking the unvarnished truth.
And Pfleger was dead on about Hillary.
115 - Lisa Solod Warren
I don't think Wright was hateful, either..... as I said before. Provocative, yes. At times, perhaps, incendiary. But he said some things that needed saying. Only no one wanted to hear them. Don't still.
Speaking of which. Today, Cheney talked about the Iraq "war" as payback for 9-11. OMG. Still delusional.
116 - Jet
Just like talking to a wall
117 - Matthew T. Sussman
Link on Cheney quote? I have to see this, and can't find it.
118 - Al Barger
Dawn, it reads like you're doing a little Enid Strict superior dance as you type about ignoring my "willfull ignorance" and "backwardsness." This is cool, but I'll point out that you have no real answer but name calling.
"Willful ignorance" apparently means knowing what Dawn Olsen thinks, but still yet being stupid enough to choose not to buy some left wing nonsense. "Willful backwardsness" would seem to mean one who knows the correct PC "progressive" standards of officially recognized correct attitudes, yet rejects them.
I suppose I'll own the terms. If being actively opposed to "progressive" thought means being therefore by definition "backwards," then that's me. And it certainly is willful.
But don't call it "ignorant," cause it's not. If I'm anything, it's evil rather than stupid. And as Kevin Kline's Otto said, don't ever call me stupid. Ha!
I'll note though that I am trying to give Barack a chance. As a rightwing nutjob, I have spent much time in these W years pissy with liberals because they go so crazy with Bush Derangement Syndrome that I end up having to defend the bastard way more than I'd like to.
So I'ma try to be actively giving the devil his due, and not getting all up in arms agin him until and unless he gets real stupid. Given the socialist rhetoric of his campaign, I suspect that'll take him about 5 minutes. But even then, I'm looking for the good in this.
President Obama's walking into a helluva tough job, so I'll try to see the good in our president as best I can.
One of the benefits of low expectations is that you're easily pleasantly surprised. Personally, I'll consider his administration a fair success if they just manage not to completely destroy the country.
Plus, I'm looking forward to Rev Wright's invocation at his inaugaral - God DAMN America!!!.
119 - Cindy D
Dawn,
And Cindy pointed to a video which she believed to support some negative claims about Rev. Wright.
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't blame Obama for the blatant hatefulness of Rev. Wright, anymore than I blame all Republicans for the viciousness of a select, but especially, pathetic few.
I think you misunderstood my position. Did you view the video?
I am in agreement with Handy in #91 where he says:
The full text of the "God damn America" sermon is nearby on YouTube as well.
I'm not a follower of Rev Wright, but I am an admirer - I find his words stirring and, to say the least, thought-provoking.
Before anyone makes a definitive comment about him or his rhetoric, they should watch at least one of these unedited clips.
120 - Dawn
From my perspective, Rev. Wright's rhetoric is/was hateful, regardless of whether some of it rings true. I wouldn't give him anymore credence than I would Farrakhan, Sharpton or Jackson. And just because Obama's black, doesn't make him a militant like many of the so called black leaders before him.
Give him a chance, don't give him a chance, whatever, that's up to each individual. Obama deserves the same opportunity to screw up this totally effed up economy/foreign policy that George Bush had, and will likely come quite short of doing so.
Al, seriously, I would consider it a real kindness if you pretended like I didn't exist. You invoked my name on this, not the other way around. Please, leave me alone.
121 - Cindy D
P.S. My very point was: What is the basis for saying Wright is blatantly hateful? Because the press said so? They were doing nothing more that promoting a "good story". Because the "rumor mill" said so?
Why not look at the video yourself and see if you say so?
As an aside: A good example of how the press is not "left-wing", but capitalistic. The truth of the story or a "fair and balanced" telling of it is of far less importance than what is going to get readers. Often they're just whores.
122 - STM
Glenn C: "And Tasmania is - next to Hawaii - the most beautiful place I've seen on Earth"
Thanks Glenn. I love Tassie too. I harbour secret dreams of moving to Hobart to live. It's only a couple ofr hours flying time from Sydney and the most beautiful city I've ever seen. I used to fly down there for weekends, and my wife and I went on a drive ourselves swing through Tassie for our first honeymoon.
You can still buy a house in Hobart with 360 degree views of the city, the mountains, the harbour area around Constitution Dock and the River Derwent for around $500,000!! Because it was settled about the same time, the old original Georgian architecture is similar to Sydney, but they're a world away from each other the two places.
Problem is, they don't pay any near as well down there. It's a much better life though, and costs less to live, so it might be worth making the sacrifice. Good surf too if you can stand the cold in winter - the nearest land going south is Antarctica
123 - Dawn
Cindy, sorry, didn't see your comment until I posted.
I have watched several lengthy clips of Wright's sermons. I guess for me, he's way too over the top and extreme in his viewpoints. I really am a person smack dab in the middle, I can see all viewpoints and choose to avoid anything which interferes with my pursuit of peace and tranquility. Wright disturbs my peace, even if I agree with his general point about how we've brought some of our woes upon ourselves.
124 - Ruvy
My apologies, Dawn. I did not have the facts exactly as I thought them to be.
So, now let's detail this. An attorney from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Philip Berg, filed a lawsuit demanding that Barry Obama produce a birth certificate. In the video linked to here,, which is, more than anything else, Philip Berg explaining his case, Berg points out that the company that allegedly "fact-checked" the Hawaiian birth certificate put online by the Obama campaign was owned by a firm that Obams sat on the board of. I believe the name I heard was Annenberg. This video was made before the election took place.
The case was dismissed for lack of standing by the Federal District Court in Pennsylvania, even though the Obama campaign never replied.
Immediately before the election Mr. Berg applied a writ of certiorari to Justice Souter (boy are you petty, Lisa) requesting that the vote count be stopped in the election. Justice Souter refused to stop the election. But he did not deny the writ altogether; according to this article in the Philadelphia Bulletin, a response from the Obama people, the DNC, and all other co-defendants is due by 1 December.
This is the writ of certiorari filed. We will see what happens with all of this.
This is the e-mail that got me interested in all this.
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, ET AL :
:
Defendants :
AFFIDAVIT OF REVEREND KWELI SHUHUBIA 10 30 2008
I, Kweli Shuhubia am over the age of eighteen (18) and not a party to the within action. If called to do so, I could and would competently testify under oath as follows I am an ordained minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a native evangelist and translator for the Anabaptist churches in Kenya. I am the official Swahili translator for the annual Anabaptists Conference held each year in Africa, working with the American bishops sitting upon the Continental Presbytery of the Anabaptists Churches of Africa. I am fluent in Swahili and in English. I am a former teacher in Kenya, and travel extensively in the ministries of the Anabaptists Churches of Africa throughout Kenya, Uganda and the Sudan.
It is common knowledge throughout the Christian and Muslim communities in Kenya that Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., the United States Presidential candidate, was born in Mombosa, Kenya. Senator Obama’s grandmother still resides in the village of Alego-Kogello, approximately 37 miles from Kisumu City. On October 16, 2008 I went to interview Ms. Sarah Obama at her home. Ms. Obama’s home was flooded with people who were celebrating Senator Obama’s success story. Ms. Obama’s home was heavily guarded by Kenya Police. Prior to the interview with Ms. Obama, I took pictures of Ms. Obama, her grandson who was present and other family members.
During my interview of Sarah Obama; I called Bishop Ron McRae in the United States from my mobile number. I advised Bishop McRae that I was present with Ms. Obama in her home, and wished for him to speak with her. Bishop McRae informed me he would call me right back, to avoid the international costs on my personal mobile phone. Bishop McRae subsequently called me back; Bishop McRae requested permission to electronically record his telephone conversations with Ms. Obama, to which I agreed.
Due to bad telephone connections Bishop McRae had to call me back three [3] times, before we were able to continue our conversation. The telephone interview conducted by Bishop McRae was conducted on loud speaker (speaker phone). During the interview conversation, one of Ms. Obama’s grandsons and myself acted as Swahili translators, and as Bishop McRae talked to and questioned Ms. Obama, we would translate what Bishop McRae said to Ms. Obama in Swahili, and then we would translate her Swahili responses to Bishop McRae in English. Ms. Obama can fluently speak Swahili in her native dialect, but cannot read or write.
Bishop McRae asked Ms. Obama specifically, "Were you present when your grandson Barack Obama was born in Kenya?" This was asked to her in translation twice, and both times she specifically replied, "Yes". It appeared Ms. Obama’s relatives and her grandson, handling the translating, had obviously been versed to counter such facts with the purported information from the American news media that Obama was born in Hawaii. Despite this, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama was very adamant that her grandson, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, was born in Kenya, and that she was present and witnessed his birth in Kenya, not the United States.
When Ms. Obama’s grandson attempted to counter his grandmother’s clear responses to the question, verifying the birth of Senator Obama in Kenya, Bishop McRae asked her grandson, how she could be present at Barack Obama’s birth if the Senator was born in Hawaii, but the grandson would not answer the question, instead he repeatedly tried to insert that, "No, No, No. He was born in the United States!"
But during the conversation, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama never changed her reply that she was indeed present when Senator Barack Obama was born in Kenya. A copy of the Tape transcript is attached hereto as EXHIBIT "A".
I left Kisumu City and traveled to Mombosa, Kenya. I interviewed personnel at the hospital in which Senator Obama was born in Kenya. I then had meetings with the Provincial Civil Registrar. I learned there were records of Ann Dunham giving birth to Barack Hussein Obama, III in Mombosa, Kenya on August 4, 1961. I spoke directly with an Official, the Principal Registrar, who openly confirmed the birthing records of Senator Barack H. Obama, Jr. and his mother were present, however, the file on Barack H. Obama, Jr. was classified and profiled. The Official explained Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. birth in Kenya is top secret.
I was further instructed to go to the Attorney General’s Office and to the Minister in Charge of Immigration if I wanted further information The above related facts are true and verifiable to the best of my personal knowledge before God Almighty, whose I am and whom I serve.
I declare under the penalty of perjury of the laws of the United States, that the foregoing is true and correct.
Dated: October 30, 2008
Kweli Shuhubia - John 3:30/Philippians 3:19-21, 29, 30
IObamaObama, Affidavit of Rev. Kweli Shuhubia 10 30 2008 5
EXHIBIT "A"
IObamaObama, Affidavit of Rev. Kweli Shuhubia 10 30 2008 6
Transcript of Phone Conversation With Kweli Shuhubia & Sarah Obama
Thursday, October 16, 2008 Time: 10:40 a.m.
NOTATION: Mr. Kirori called me first on October 16th at 10:33a.m. and advised that he was with Sarah Hussein Obama and that she wanted to speak with me, but the connection was lost. He called me right back at 10:35a.m. and I answered and asked him for permission to record the conversation, which he granted me saying "yes". I then turned the recorder on and repeated the question, "Do I have permission to record you phone conversation today, including the conversation with Obama’s grandmother?" Kweli Shuhubia replied, "yes". I then informed him that I would call him right back, so it would not cots him money for the call. I called back at 10:40a.m. and spoke with him and Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama for 10 minutes.
From AT&T Monthly Statement of Calls:
110 WED 10/15/2008 8:18PM 814-629-5423 BOSWELL PA 1 RM30 DT 0.00 0.00 0.00
111 THU 10/16/2008 10:33AM 254726477700 INCOMING CL 1 RM30 DT 0.00 0.00 0.00
112 THU 10/16/2008 10:35AM 254726477700 INCOMING CL 1 RM30 DT 0.00 0.00 0.00
113 THU 10/16/2008 10:40AM 254726477700 KENYA ** 15 RM30 DT 0.00 12.32 12.32
114 THU 10/16/2008 10:54AM 610-662-3005 BALA CYNWYD, PA 2 ESM1 DT M2MC 0.00
115 THU 10/16/2008 10:56AM 610-825-3134 CONSHOHOCKON, PA 10 RM30 DT 0.00 0.00
116 THU 10/16/2008 11:17AM 313-418-6959 DETROIT MI 1 RM30 DT 0.00 0.00 0.00
117 THU 10/16/2008 11:18AM 313-418-6959 DETROIT MI 16 RM30 DT 0.00 0.00 0.00
118 THU 10/16/2008 11:33AM 254726477700 KENYA ** 2 RM30 DT 0.00 1.76 1.76
119 THU 10/16/2008 12:37PM 254726477700 KENYA ** 2 RM30 DT 0.00 1.76 1.76
120 THU 10/16/2008 12:41PM 814-242-9409 VMAIL CL 1 RM30 DT VM 0.00 0.00 0.00
121 THU 10/16/2008 12:42PM 254726477700 KENYA ** 10 RM30 DT 0.00 8.80 8.80
Transcript: Two Rings:
Kweli Shuhubia: Hello? [Back ground music]
Ron McRae: Brother Tom? [music] Brother Tom? This is Brother McRae.
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes.
Ron McRae: Okay. How are you today?
Kweli Shuhubia: Now. We are okay. How are you?
Ron McRae: I’m doing very well. You said you are there with, uh, Barack Obama’s grandmother?
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes. I am just in the home now. She is right here. We’re, we’re waiting to talk in a uh long conversation. And [unitelligible] a good family and she is ready to talk.
Ron McRae: Good. She’s not there at the present?
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes. She’s here right now.
Ron McRae: Okay. Is it possible to speak to her?
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes. It is possible. I ah, along with her and her family, uh, you and me.
Ron McRae: Uh, is it possible for you to put her on the speaker phone and translate for me?
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes! Yes! I will do that.
Ron McRae: Okay.
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes?
Ron McRae: Okay.
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes. Go ahead [speak to her in Swahili]
Sarah Obama: [Replies to him in Swahili]
Ron McRae: Ms. Obama?
Kweli Shuhubia: Yes go ahead.
Ron McRae: Mrs. Obama, my name is bishop Ron McRae.
Kweli Shuhubia: Ametaja bishop Ron McRae, Ron McRae. Go ahead.
Ron McRae: I am, I am the bishop of the Anabaptists Churches of North America.
Kweli Shuhubia: Yeye niaskofu Anabaptists makaisa.
Sarah Obama: Shikamooo! [Hello, good day].
Translator: Are you speaking English and , and we will tell her in Luo. Okay?
Ron McRae: Now give me that again. Explain it to me again.
Translator: It is welcome. She is very grateful for your interest.
Ron McRae: Okay. Thank you! Tell her I count it a great honor to speak to here since her son Barack Obama is running for President of the United States.
Translator: Eh makasema yuko kiuu mgomba Obama kwa mwenyekiti America. Yah, she says she is very helpful for got to you to please pray for Obama. She is asking you to pray for him. For Obama.
Ron McRae: Yes Sir. Uh…Ms. Obama, you can rest assured that I am praying for your son, for your grandson.
Translator: Yes. It is helpful also towards it is beginning to help.
Ron McRae: Okay.
Sarah Obama: [unitelligible from Ms. Obama because of room noise].
Translator: She says she is covet your prayers for he [unintelligible] her son.
Ron McRae: Okay. And tell her that I will be coming there in December and I would like to come by and meet with her and pray with her.
Translator: Yes. Ye atakuwa mwezi Desemba.
Kweli Shuhubia: In December. He will come in December and he wants to come and talk with you.
Sarah Obama: [unitelligible]
Translator: Oh she says you’re so encourage her. You’re coming in December so you can talk together with her.
Ron McRae: Amen. I am so thankful. Could I ask her, uh, about his, uh, his actual birthplace? I would like to see his actual birthplace when I, when I come to Kenya in December. Uh, was she present when he was, was she present when he was born in Kenya?
Translator to Sarah Obama: Alikuma zalima Obama [unintelligible].
Kweli Shuhubia: He is asking her, he wants to know something was ah she present when he was born?
Translator: Yes. She says, "Yes she was! She was present when Obama was born."
Ron McRae: Okay.
125 - Clavos
GWB is likely to be the last white president for quite some time to come.
The demographics of the country are changing rapidly. Shortly after Obama's eight years are over, whites will be very close to no longer being the majority, while Latinos, though culturally varied, will be well on the way to becoming the largest ethnic group in a population comprised of nothing but minorities (including Caucasians).
If, as so many expect to be the case, the Obama administration is a success, particularly in lifting the African American cohort's status and power in the overall population, the Latinos are likely to react to this shift and work to overcome their cultural differences (among themselves) to present an attractive Latino candidate for the presidency. Again assuming a successful Obama presidency, the political atmosphere will be much more nurturing of, and receptive to, non-white candidates than it is now (when a non-white won), and a Latino (or other ethnic group) candidate will have an excellent chance of succeeding Obama.