Socialism has benefited every industrialized democracy on earth...except for America.
"The times, they are a-changin'"...…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Socialism has benefited every industrialized democracy on earth...except for America.
"The times, they are a-changin'"...…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dawn
Clavos,
I guess I don't hate Bush like so many people do right now. I hate the job he did and how poorly he did it, but I don't hate/dislike whatever, him. What's the point in wasting those kinds of negative emotions?
I am a very proud American and believe we should respect that title and those who have it. I wouldn't want people threatening Bush's life anymore that Obama's. We have to exhibit some rational behavior in times like these. Ruvy spouting this hatred and bile only seeks to destroy us and divert us from our efforts to rebuild this country to greatness again.
I do not believe for a second that Obama is anti-Semitic or a hater of Jews or any other group. Don't buy it, don't believe it. Not to mention the fact that Israel, while a fierce ally, isn't perfect by any means. Neither is the U.S. Those seeking perfection will always be sorely disappointed. And apparently angry.
27 - Clavos
I don't hate Bush, either, Dawn.
I used to respect him, but he eroded that away himself.
My father was the first to teach me the "respect the office, not the man" aphorism. Later on, many teachers did as well. Gradually, I began to realize the wisdom in it.
The office, as the highest in the land, should always be respected. But respect of the individual can morph into blindness, which can lead to many of the excesses we've seen in societies where the the cult of personality outweighs the common sense of the governed.
I'm not saying that things under Bush got that out of hand (although it was nip and tuck more than once), but with an approval rating in the low double digits, the people in general obviously don't have much respect for him, and that's a good thing, IMO, because it's deserved.
28 - Ruvy
Dawn,
Ruvy, I will bother who ever I damn well please...
Indeed, madame. Rank has its privileges.
I wouldn't put up with you calling Bush a monkey either. I may not like his policies or his administration, but I respect him as the leader of my country.
If you wish to respect a puppet of the Saudi monarchy, that is your privilege. It is part of the freedom you still enjoy. Let's hope you conitinue to enjoy that freedom.
You are NOT an American, nor are you living in the United States. If you don't like the way things are going in your neck of the woods, complain to YOUR leaders.
Now we take you by the hand back to comment #6. Read carefully what the gentleman has to say. He throws brickbats at the Jew Obana stuck up as his "chief of staff" precisely because he is, in his words "a Zionist". His problems with Rahm Emanuel is what he would regard as Jewish control over your government. He has problems with that.
And now, I'll tell you what this Jew WHO IS NOT AN AMERICAN has problems with:
1. Your government has bought out and intimidated our leaders - Rabin, Netanyahu, Barak, Olmert, Sharon. Each one has been forced to cough up one concession or another since 1992, and each one has been gotten rid of after doing so.
a) Rabin signed the Olso Accord and was murdered - not by Yig'al 'Amir, who is taking the rap to save himself from being labelled a child pervert and stuck in jail for that - but by Yoram Rubin, who is on the payroll of Shim'on Peres, who is on the payroll of the European Union. Rabin was murdered because he wanted to back out of the Oslo Accords.
b) Netanyahu gave the Arabs Hebron - after a massacre of Arabs was arranged by the Shaba"k there, and a Jewish doctor framed for doing it. Netanyahu was gotten rid of by James Carville, a Clinton aide, who forced Ehud Barak on this country.
c) Ehud Barak gave up South Lebanon - which used to be under our control. The result of that action was the infiltration of Southern Lebanon by HizbAllah and a war against us which we lost, at the orders of Condaleezza Rice THE AMERICAN SECRETARY OF STATE. Ehud Barak was forced out of office when he was literally afraid to put down an Arab rebellion in 2000. He was forced out of office by another American sellout, Ariel Sharon, who infiltrated the Israeli right wing at the instance of Henry Kissinger in 1973, ANOTHER AMERICAN SECRETARY OF STATE.
d) Ariel Sharon surrendered the Gush Qatif settlements in Gaza and strategic villages in Northern Samaria, not far from where I live. When I heard that Yoran Rubin was back as one of the guards of the prime minister, in Sept. 2005, I told everyone that Sharon's days were numbered. Indeed they were. A massive stroke killed him, but in order to prevent the return of Netanyahu back to office, the poor man was dragged back from his eternal rest, stuck on life support and today rots like a tomato. Because Sharon was still "alive" Ehud Olmert took the spot as prime minister.
e) Ehud Olmert, an incompetent fool who could barely keep scandal from his door did his best to win American friendship. He lost the war in South Lebanon. Life isn't fair. Dawn. He did what Condaleezza Rice told him to do, and then he was judged as lacking by her boss, George Bush. Nort only that, he was scorned as an untoiuchable by Arabs at a conference a year ago in the States. He was made to enter by the servants' entrance. After swallowing this humiliation, he was ditched as useless by the attorney general Mazuz (a protogé of Shim'on Peres) who kicked up just enough scandal to make sure he could not stay in office. For all this, Olmert still runs to Washington to lick the last vomitus from George Bush, and beg for favors. Now, Tzipora Livni would like to succeed to Olmert's tattered and dsishoneored chair - another American puppet being shoved down our throats.
You see, Dawn, it is useless to complain to puppets on a string. The AMERICAN puppets in Jerusalem need to be removed by violent revolution. It has come to that.
Why?
Because of the ceaseless intervention in our internal affairs by the GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
So, as an American citizen, not to mention a Jew who worries about the welfare of his own country, I have every right to do whatever I can to end that intervention. I have every right to chararacterize Barack Hussein Obama II as the sleazy piece of shit that he is. I wanted that sleazy piece of shit in the White House precisely because he would stink and twist the knife of betrayal in the the backs of the Jewish People - and I could continually point that fact out to those who might be able to get rid of AMERICAN puppets who ruin this nation.
We do not need your interference in our affairs; we do not need your money, nor your soldiers, nor your unwanted and unneeded advice; we do not need the corrupting influence of your sick culture here.
And in three years of posting here, I have been consisitent in stating all these things.
Unfortunately, it seems impossible to escape this sick American culture anywhere on the planet. But it still stinks, and I can at least state that. And further, I can state that having once lived in the United States and still clearly remembering when it had a better, healthier culture, I can indeed regret the loss of that better culture for the mess that is what America broadcasts from its shores today.
Have a pleasant evening, madame. And give my best regards to Eric. He's a great guy and has been doing a great job with the magazine.
29 - Ruvy
Clavos,
Respect the office, not the man (unless it's earned).
Indeed. Quoted for truth.
30 - Bennett
"we do not need the corrupting influence of your sick culture here"
as he participates in said sick culture, daily, while frothing at the mouth.
God, what hypocrisy.
31 - Doug Hunter
Interesting article. Socialism has increased, but so has capitalism, free markets, and wealth held in private hands. It's not a zero sum game.
There's an analogy I like to think of when considering these things, perhaps you would find it helpful.
The economic system is like a train. Free markets and capital are the engine that drives everything forward. Social programs, regulation, welfare, and the rest are like cars attached to it.
If you have an engine revving with nothing attached it's likely to overheat and melt down (and what's the point of all that wealth anyway if it's not going to move a few cars forward). On the other hand, if you have too much cars and baggage dragging down your engine it will slow down your acceleration or in the extreme grind it to a halt entirely.
With time and technology the engines of our economy have become stronger and can now pull more cars without bogging down. Some people see this and assume adding cars arbitrarily to the train is a sign of 'progress' since that has been a general trend.
The engine and the cars, although they often pull against each other, aren't opposing factions they are a team that should be moving forward together.
The engine of the American economy has overheated. Perhaps if we'd brought a few more cars along we'd have more momentum.
32 - Dawn
Ruvy, let me set the record straight for you. Simply because I am married to Eric does not afford me any greater privileges here than anyone else. As an aside, BC wouldn't exist had I not supported Eric for a number of years before the site ever generated a dime, I am as much responsible for its existence as anyone else who has put time and effort it to it, and your implications that somehow I am above following the rules or think I am somehow more important than anyone else shows how little you know about this site, and definitely about me personally.
My mother is Jewish and I was raised Jewish for a number of years, so I am not without appreciation for your plight, nor am I ignorant of the complicated relationship the U.S. has had with Israel since its formation. Am I as erudite on Israel's policy matters as you? Certainly not, but I doubt you understand the nuances of our culture here in the U.S. as well as those of us who live here everyday.
I don't constantly spout and spew negative things about your leaders or your country, therefore I have every right to be offended when you do so about mine. It's unproductive and if your agenda is to enlighten, may I suggest you do so in a less officious and imperious manner. Weren't you ever taught that tone and inflection are as important as substance?
In any case, I refuse to absorb one single word you have to say about Barack Hussein Obama (I don't really give a fat fig if that's his middle name, because I am not anti-ANYONE as a matter of policy) until you stop being so rude, offensive and crude about him.
I voted for him, proudly and with great reverence and I have as of yet to see any evidence or proof of what you are asserting about his character.
Prove he's anti-Israel, prove he hates Jews and wants to destroy them? Put up, or shut up is what they say in my part of the world.
33 - Bennett
On one side we have Ruvy, spouting his crude slanders,
on the other side we have millions of people who have taken their measure of the man they voted for to lead this country and (like Dawn) are proud of their vote. Of the millions of those who voted for McCain/Palin, very very few would stoop to the gutter language used by Ruvy to describe the next POTUS.
Millions and millions to one. Slightly out of balance, wouldn't you say?
Ruvy, you need to spend your time on discussion boards where your opinion will make a difference in YOUR country, and thus the world.
You need to seek change in Israel.
I doubt that you've changed even one mind here on BC with your crass hatred and predictions of biblical doom. In the meantime you are presenting a very poor example of what it means to be an Israeli citizen.
You are wasting your time.
Why not make a difference in this world? why not gather and mobilize your fellow countrymen and women to change Israel? Every second you spend on Blog Critics is a second wasted. You won't change anything by posting comments here.
All in all, you come off looking like a bitter, angry, and confused madman.
34 - Ruvy
Simply because I am married to Eric does not afford me any greater privileges here than anyone else....BC wouldn't exist had I not supported Eric for a number of years before the site ever generated a dime, I am as much responsible for its existence....
That is what is summed up as ownership, Dawn. I'm merely showing a healthy respect for the owner of the site and his wife, whose efforts have kept it alive and afforded me a place to publish 112 articles over three years.
Take it as what it is meant to be.
If you are still Jewish, you have a stake in this country, and you should be concerned about its continued existence. Otherwise, you needn't bother.
As for the rest, read carefully what I'vwe written above, even if you would rather not. The progressive weakening of this nation's government, its military and its institutions all can be laid directly at the policies of YOUR GOVERNMENT. The appointment of Rahm Emanuel is just another example of this continuing pattern, that "cemented" the Oslo Accords that has so weakened this nation and cost 5,000 lives.
You can read further about this in my series "In the Shadow of the Six Day War", published here at this site. I have very good reason to be very critical of America's leaders - her actions are leading to the "decountrification" of the nation I call home - and to be blunt, I resent it.
But if you wish to read further about Mr. Obama, read my analysis of his policies when he made his speech in front of AIPAC, originally pulished here, making sure you follow such links as are still live. Additionally, you can read Israeli Government Planning to Split Jerusalem and Other Downers from the Middle East which will give you some idea of the dangers we live with here - and how your government contributes to them.
I'll not have to prove that Obama is a Jew-hater. Time will do that for me, assuming he is indeed inaugurated. The question of his citizenship is to be discussed on 1 December at a court hearing in front of Supreme Court Justice Sauter. It is not a closed issue - yet. For that link, you will need to search yourself. I have the link in my e-mails somewhere, but I'm tired.
And now I wish you a pleasant evening. Even though I did get lots of sleep on the Sabbath, I still must get some sleep. It is nearly 04:00 in the morning here.
35 - Ruvy
Thank you for you kind advice, Bennett. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]. I'll spend MY time where I deem fit, thank you. And I'll answer to my Maker for its use or misuse - not to the likes of you.
36 - Jet
Filling in for Arch while he's on vacation Ruvy?
37 - Mark Schannon
Oy, so much for above intelligent discourse on BC politics. Name calling & allegations, hot tempers & loose lips (which, remember, sink ships.)
I for one am announcing I'm signing of this thread and will find others where personal attacks are the minimum and pompous discourse is the norm...mostly mine.
(By the way, Dawn, had no idea you and Eric were a permanent item. Congrats on all the success BC has achieved.)
Curmudgeon-At-Large
In Jameson Veritas
38 - Dawn
Hey Mark, thanks on the congrats! BC's success is a direct result of the hard work of Eric, Phillip, Lisa and the fantastic editors (too many to mention) and all the great writers here, included Ruvy, who needs to understand that how you express yourself is as important as what you are expressing.
And Eric and I have been married for ten years, and I am hoping it's permanent :)
39 - Clavos
Dawn,
Yer newlyweds...:>)
We just celebrated our 37th, plus we lived together in sin for four years until she trapped me.
40 - Glenn Contrarian
ruvy -
Okay, I can understand you're angry. Whether your anger is justified or not, I cannot judge.
BUT I DO KNOW THIS. A good friend of mine - a black woman in her 60's - tells me of her oldest son who was killed as a bystander in a gang war, and her youngest son committed suicide. She remembers being a young girl asking Mormon missionaries if blacks go to heaven and being told that blacks do go to heaven - 'dog-and-cat heaven'. She raised her five children as a single mom despite the prejudice she faced - and sometimes still does face, but of course nowhere near the degree of the whites-only water fountains/restrooms/seats that she remembers so well.
ruvy, you wanna be angry and insult others, go ahead. But I've yet to hear this woman who has seen so much prejudice and heartbreak in her life insult anyone at all. My advice to you is, if she can suffer what she has and still does not speak bitter words to others, then so can I...and so can you.
yasher koach -
(and I hope this is a proper use of that phrase - if not, then please forgive me)
41 - Glenn Contrarian
ruvy -
A few more things - I really, truly do not think Obama's a 'jew-hater'. I think you have given too much weight to the spite that the Obama-haters have spread...and the frivolous claim that Obama's not a citizen is but one more example of how far they're willing to go.
One must wonder if your suspicion of Obama is at least partially rooted in the less-than-cordial relationship that has existed between blacks and Jews for decades - again, please note I'm passing no judgment, but simply raising one possibility.
I will be the FIRST to agree with you that America has meddled far too much in the affairs of other countries. With few exceptions (such as particularly egregious human rights violations), our policy should be "what you do inside your borders is your own internal matter...so let's do business!"
But I think it is fair to say that despite America's overbearing manner, the two hundred or so nuclear warheads in your possession have been an effective deterrent against all-out war since 1973.
42 - Baritone
I rarely engage Ruvy any longer. He is on another plain of existence, rather like a different dimension wherein his entire universe revolves around Israel which is the center of all.
It's not so much that Ruvy is intolerant, but rather he finds anything that does not directly involve or affect Jews/Israel as irrelevant - especially any of our opinions. Why he bothers to post and comment here is "a puzzlement."
Little does he realize just how irrelevant Israel is to the majority of people in the U.S. It is not that most of us are anti-semitic, it's simply that Israel is of little concern to us in our daily lives. I know a few Jews here in Indy who give little attention to the plight of Israel. They are far too busy just living their lives.
Of course, I'm an atheist. I find the entire basis of Ruvy's life view misguided. I don't see it as irrelevant, though, in that his belief system and his culture are at loggerheads with the muslim world. Out of that struggle thousands of people have died, many in defence of a land which is no holier than any other chunk of arid dirt. That struggle has been brought to our shores and, therefore, endangers me and mine.
Ruvy's attitude toward the U.S. - his native land BTW, is so convoluted and lacking any basis of reason [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].
I am an American, and I'm not ashamed of it, but I am also aware that unfettered nationalism is often as destructive as religious fervor. Far too many people have died in the name of country as well. We dare not admit that most wars were fought for the cause of power, and, even more importantly, for resources - whether it be oil or salt or tulip bulbs. We just can't admit that we send our young people to die for money.
Of course, Ruvy is a righteous true believer who occasionally condescends to let us know what fools and lying bastards we and pretty much everyone else in the world are. It's doubtful that anyone in the world - even in his so called "Holy Land" amongst the "chosen people" can live up to his standards. Ruvy has stored up pretty much all of his god's anger, which he spews as hatred.
B
43 - Dave Nalle
I'll not have to prove that Obama is a Jew-hater. Time will do that for me
Indeed. He hates jews so much that he appointed one as his chief of staff - his first appointment, and the job which includes helping to vet future appointments.
Dave
44 - Dave Nalle
Bliffle took exceptions to Dave's comment, "Regulation to make businesses operate for reasons other than the profit of their owners or shareholders are always destructive." However, pollution, products that kill & maim, etc. can all be considered to be ultimately a bad thing for owners. Not sure if Dave agrees...it's the Milton Freedman school of economics vs. any sane & rational approach.
Mark, I'm fine with the idea of reasonable regulation in the interest of the 'public welfare' as suggested in the constitution. If the purpose of the regulation is to protect the people, that's fine. If the purpose is to favor one business over another or engage in social engineering I'm not so happy with it.
Dave
45 - Ruvy
Glenn,
One more time on all of this; my main interest here is to support the legitimization if socialism in your country - even if it is a luxury you cannot presently afford.
I have no problems with a man whose father is black, and who makes good, but it should be borne in mind that the influences on Obama were wide, diverse and varied. He is, more than anything else, a first generation American with a powerful loyalty to his father's Luo tribe in Kenya. Evidence of his interference in Kenya's politics on his family's behalf is to be found in my article on him linked to above. The link to that evidence in the referenced article remains live.
As a child, he grew up in Hawaii with his white mother, AND HE ABSORBED WHITE CULTURE THERE IN A MULTI-CULTURAL SOCIETY. He then went to Indonesia for a time and did study Islam. Some have alleged that he remains a Moslem at heart (I have not), but what IS clear is that he strongly identifies with Islam and built up very strong friendships among Moslems and Pakistanis, friendships which helped him immensely in his race.
He has spent twenty years in association with a Jew-hating Chicago preacher, Jeremiah Wright. Did this man influence him? Before his break with Wright, he referred to him as a mentor. As a state legislator, he had plenty of Arab support, and associated freely with those who would see this nation destroyed. As a United States senator, he cut those links somewhat, knowing the strong Jewish influence in Washington, and fearing to be linked with groups like CAIR.
I would fear such things too, if I were an American legislator who had strong Arab affiliations.
Obama's life until he got married had little to do with black American culture from what my reading showed. His formative influences were not black culturally, but white and Asian. His buddies as a young adult were Arabs and Pakistanis. Whatever strained relationships there are between blacks and Jews, he did not likely come under that influence until he entered politics in Chicago and hung around Jeremiah Wright's church.
But it is there; twenty years makes a difference in anyone's life.
Add to this the element of a very good speaker. Obama is highly intelligent, and is virtually a hypnotic speaker. He knows how to tell people what they want or need to hear and to make it sound as though it either comes from the heart or is a very well thought out answer.
Finally, add in the influence of Saul Alinsky. Saul Alinsky is my kind of ideologue. He has firm beliefs but recognizes the need to infiltrate societies and organizations from within when the ideology seems foreign to the society or the organization.
Now let's look at Rahm Emanuel. He is where this all started. I managed to lose the link to this story in my comment to Dawn above. Obama, who is basically anti-Israel, understands the corrosive and destructive influence the Oslo Acccords has had on this country. He certainly understood this when he gave his speech to AIPAC. Rahm Emmanuel, according to Arutz Sheva and other sources, "directed the Rabin-Arafat handshake" - the handshake that "cemented" this treaty with evil. Put simply, the child of real patriots who fought for this country's survival does not understand what it will take to keep this country alive. This is the man Obama chose for a chief of staff. Emanuel hangs around the country's rich elite in Tel Aviv, people who have no trouble selling Israel down the tube. They figure they have to money to get out. Why should they care about poor people in Ashkelon or S'derot? They don't. And people like me who live in Judea and Samaria are a cancer on the society they want to live in.
Obama made the appropriate choice in light of his own apparent ideas which at the very least reflect those of Zbigniew Brzinski, and involve the weakening, if not the actual destruction, of this country.
Now where is my dog in all of this?
I want to rid Israel of the American puppets who ruin this nation. The most effective way to accomplish that is to have an anti-Israel president in office who is actively supported by lots and lots of Arabs, and lots and lots of anti-Israel and anti-Jewish types, like Wright. Obama is just the fellow: a hypnotic speaker who is a good liar and who surrounds himself with those who hate this country and its people. Such a fellow is a target for me to point to. Not on Blogcritics necessarily, but in conversation after conversation with young kids in uniform who will have to do the ugly work of getting rid of these poisonous and bought out American-influenced Israeli traitors who ruin Israel.
That is why I supported Obama in this election: better a real enemy than a false friend.
But now that you have chosen him, I do not have to hide my contempt for the man.
As for the citizenship issue, that was an added bonus to prove just how much Obama does have to hide.
Nota bene: Unlike so many truly hate-filled people, I would never call for the assassination of Obama. For that, you need to go to the real haters in your society.
46 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, please stop whining. This remark of yours
is pathetic. Just like in any other country, it is the government of that country that is responsible for what happens there.Even if it was true, which it isn't, that the USA was weakening Israel, it would still be the Israeli government's fault for going along with it.
Personally, I hope you get your wish and that the many countries that support Israel cease to do so, just so you can have an opportunity to grow up and find out what it is like to be a nation with no friends. Even though you, in your most hysterically funny moments, have called for that, you should maybe think about the wisdom of the words, "be careful what you wish for, lest you get it".
Israel, the mouse that roared! Laughable much?
47 - Ruvy
Chris,
There will be, G-d willing, a book review coming out dealing with the sovereign rights of the Jewish People that arise in international law to the entire Land of Israel. When you read it, if you bother to, then you can complain. It probably will make your blood boil....;o))
I've gotten what I asked for, and now must make the best of the opportunity the American people have been kind enough to give me.
At this point, you have nothing to complain about in my comments. I have engaged in no personal attacks on anyone writing on this site.
As for politicians, regardless of station, they are public figures, and are not immune to attack.
48 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, here are several statements from your previous comment that you don't substantiate, you just toss out like little confetti of prejudice and presumption:-
1. a powerful loyalty to his father's Luo tribe in Kenya
2. he strongly identifies with Islam
3. He knows how to tell people what they want or need to hear
4. Obama, who is basically anti-Israel
5. the child of real patriots who fought for this country's survival does not understand what it will take to keep this country alive
6. the weakening, if not the actual destruction, of this country
7. a hypnotic speaker who is a good liar and who surrounds himself with those who hate this country and its people
I would like to see some evidence - meaning not your hysterical fears and projections - that any of that is true.
As far as I can tell, you have placed yourself heart and mind in the service of a bankrupt theology and are desperately trying to cling to little flotsam and jetsam of "thought" rather than see the world as it actually is, lest the world, as it inevitably will, proves you for a gullible fool and your "faith" the long con that it is.
For the record, it's not true that you don't engage in personal attacks on this site, you do and routinely they get edited.
Oh, and your #47, way to go on completely ignoring my point. You do that a lot when people catch you out in your naivety. Never let reality get in the way of the dogma, huh?
49 - Clavos
He knows how to tell people what they want or need to hear
The principal skill of a successful politician; in his case, the proof of its truth lies in the fact he's now the president-elect.
Had he not done what Ruvy says, he wouldn't have been elected.
50 - Glenn Contrarian
ruvy -
I really enjoy discussing matters with those from other cultures - I really do. But please listen to this advice - it's not meant to offend you, but to help you.
If you want to be taken seriously in a debate, rhetoric MUST be backed by GOOD references. Give us TRUSTWORTHY references, not fishwrappers like 'WorldNet Daily'. If you cannot back up what you say, then don't say it.
In addition to the references Chris asked for above, I want to see your references for the following:
* "a Jew-hating Chicago preacher, Jeremiah Wright." Where is your proof that Wright was 'Jew-hating'?
* "As a state legislator, he had plenty of Arab support, and associated freely with those who would see this nation destroyed." Your reference?
* "His buddies as a young adult were Arabs and Pakistanis." Your reference?
51 - Dawn
Ruvy,
I have said Obama's associations with Rev. Wright are the most troubling aspect of his background. Rev. Wright represents everything that's wrong with race relations in this country. Wright is no less obnoxious than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, who are anti-Jew and anti-white.
Obama should have left that church long ago, but inertia counts for a lot. If Obama is anything like the kind of Christian I consider myself, he picks and chooses what he finds useful and rejects what he finds ridiculous.
This is why I think gay people have every single right to live their lives and pursue happiness as I do, but feel certain that despots, murderers and child molesters are sent directly to hell to be tormented for all of eternity.
Obama isn't what I would consider "religious" but merely spiritual. He belonged to that church out of a sense of community, not because he bought into the nonsense Wright was spewing.
Also, this whole nonsense about his citizenship is stupid. Prove it or it's just lies.
Think about Ruvy, do you REALLY think that if there was any question about Obama not being a citizen of the U.S. it wouldn't have been exploited by his enemies ad nauseum?
As for his father and the whole Moslem thing, can we please never mention this crap again. I don't much get the impression his father or that side of his family has had much influence on him at all. Certainly not anymore than I have allowed my Appalachian, bigoted roots to influence me.
You can't help who you were born to, and you can't blame a person for exploring their roots.
Obama's exposure to a diverse background is precisely why he is who he is: a combination of us all.
52 - Lisa Solod Warren
I heard a very interesting discussion about Reverend Wright. First, the two speeches that were televised were exactly that two: two sermons out of hundreds.
Second, black churches are different from white churches. Spend some time in one. I have. They are much different than most white churches in terms of temperment, tone, sound, participation and sermonizing. Wright's was no different.
Third, get over this as a huge association. I had rabbis for years I didn't much like. I went to synagogue because I went to synagogue. Now I have a rabbi I really respect and I go to listen to him and I pay attention to the sermons and I really care.
For many blacks and whites church is as much a social event as it is a religious event--even if they won't admit it. They are being hypocritical in the extreme. MANY preachers say weird and bizarre things in many churches (having lived in the south I have made it my business to follow this) and I doubt that ever parishoner takes responsibility for each word uttered from his/her preacher's mouth.
So, when all these things are put together, Wright becomes a real red herring. Just another way to "prove" something about Obama, like his "having" Muslim friends, or a Muslim father, etc., that make him "different" from some people. Just another way to mark him as not like US (whatever the hell that means) and make it easy to either hate or dismiss him.
It is so damned tiresome that this is still going on.
53 - Clavos
Wright had the best line of the campaign...
54 - Glenn Contrarian
Ruvy -
I looked at your references and your blog. On Obama's new Chief of Staff, your reference said something interesting about his actions during Clinton's election: "Emanuel raised the colossal sum of $72 million, much of the money coming from the Jewish community, and the success catapulted him into becoming a senior advisor to Clinton after he was elected President."
"Much of the money coming from the Jewish community" There's a real problem with that - either you're taking a reference from somebody with a REAL anti-Semitic bent (because they're wanting to blame the Jews for Clinton) OR a whole lot of Jews see things differently from you. I think you'd better check the objectivity of your reference.
And then there's this:
"Raila Odinga has, in his own words, a "close personal friendship" with Barrack Hussein Obama Junior....
When Obama went to Kenya in August of 2006, he was hosted by Raila and spoke in praise of him at rallies in Nairobi: Obama's bias for his fellow Luo was so blatant that a Kenya government spokesman denounced Obama during his visit as Raila's "stooge."
Ah, so a politician hosted a senator, and so we MUST assume that Obama truly is this guy's "close personal friend"? And because some government spokesman didn't like Obama, the senator is now a "stooge"? AND WHERE ARE YOUR REFERENCES? I looked at your link...and the reference THAT gives is "members only" for those who subscribe to 'TTP'.
Ruvy, if such information is as TRUE and TERRIBLE as you think it is, why should the information be restricted? Hm?
AND THEN THERE'S AIPAC.
Hm. If Obama was so ANTI-Israel, then WHY would Hamas say this about him (from YOUR reference)?
"Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Obama's Jerusalem statement was "totally rejected. The whole world knows that East Jerusalem, holy Jerusalem, was occupied in 1967 and we will not accept a Palestinian state without having [East] Jerusalem as the capital of a Palestinian state."
Abbas' aide and senior peace negotiator Saeb Erekat responded by saying that Obama "has closed all doors to peace.""
Ruvy - it's becoming clear to me that you are NOT judging objectively, but making judgments based on assumptions because EVEN YOUR OWN REFERENCES dispute your claims.
I'd really like to discuss things with you, to hear your side of the story when it comes to what the Palestinians call the "Twice-Promised Land". That's not Israel's fault, btw, but England's.
But unless you have something better from trustworthy references, I think you and I are done on this topic.
55 - Lisa Solod Warren
Clav, if you are talking about what I think you are, then I actually agree with you.
56 - handyguy
Will Clav and Lisa cut the coyness and tell us what Wright remark they are referring to?
PS - Although many of his remarks are [deliberately] over the top and a few genuinely offensive, on balance I think the good reverend is kind of cool...and I regret that politics necessitated Obama's dropping him.
I got into an argument with two gay friends the other night...they voted for Obama but remain skeptical of him, and think he is 'no friend of gays.' Why? Because of Wright's hyperbolic comments about AIDS. I laughed at them.
Aren't we all intelligent enough to tell the difference between rhetoric, which can be deliberately provocative, and statements of alleged fact? The Rev. Wright is all rhetoric. Treating his words otherwise is pure foolishness.
57 - Dr Dreadful
I'm late to this discussion and it has long since meandered from the original topic (as is to be expected when Ruvy chimes in!), but I'd like to toss in my $0.02 worth anyway.
Glenn makes the good point that socialism is not communism (the name of history's most powerful communist state notwithstanding). However, he has a misconception of his own.
Social democracy is not socialism either.
58 - Lisa Solod Warren
I completely agree with handy. Hence my earlier post.
I think,now that the election is over, people will feel pretty stupid (ie., Repubs, I hope) for making such a huge big deal over both Ayers and Wright.
But then again, maybe not. Naw..... probably not.
59 - Glenn Contrarian
Doc -
Good point. I'll take that one as a lesson learned. Labels are trick things....
60 - Dr Dreadful
The remarkable thing I'm getting in my conversations with people who didn't vote for Obama is that by and large, while they'd have preferred it if he hadn't won, they're willing to give him a chance. There's an atmosphere of conciliation that was noticeable by its absence after the last two elections. I'm not sure if Obama should be given the credit for that, or McCain, or a combination of the two.
What I am sure of is that the small but very vocal minority of Republicans who kept harping on about red herrings - Wright, Ayers, ACORN, Obama's middle name, Obama's Kenyan family, Obama using more than four squares of toilet paper in the Senate restroom - are going to keep doing so. They were oblivious to how foolish they sounded during the campaign and there's no reason to suppose they're any more self-aware now.
61 - Glenn Contrarian
Doc -
Frankly, I found the same kind of thing in religious forums - and it did not matter how courteous one was towards them, their response would be filled with spite and insults.
I'm sure they thought the same thing of me.
I'm not trying to link partisan politics and religion here, but I guess that's what I'm doing. The more fundamental their religious beliefs, the more likely they were to be conservative...and the more likely they were to use insults and spite in their posts. This is NOT a hard-and-fast rule of human psychology, but only a general layman's observation. My own opinion is that the greater degree of intellectual curiosity (but NOT actual intelligence), the more likely one is to be fundamentalist and/or conservative.
But that's just my opinion...and I'm sure you know what opinions are like and why they stink.
62 - Dr Dreadful
My own opinion is that the greater degree of intellectual curiosity (but NOT actual intelligence), the more likely one is to be fundamentalist and/or conservative.
Did you mean "less likely", Glenn? My own observations have led me to conclude the exact opposite.
Fundamentalism requires absolute faith - something that doesn't sit all that easily with intellectual curiosity.
63 - Dave Nalle
glenn, it's the fanaticism, NOT the christianity which is the problem. You've noticed it among Christians because that's where you're looking for it, but the spite and anger is just as strong among the cult-like fanatics of the pro-choice movement, the ecoextremist left, the most hardcore of the gay rights movement, and any other group of any political affiliation which holds a particular belief set with an extreme and irrational fanaticism.
Dave
64 - Glenn Contrarian
Man, but my brain is fried today -
Doc - good catch - you're right - the LESS intellectually curious, the LESS one is likely to challenge one's own world view.
You get my drift.
DAVE - when the eco-freaks and the gay rights crowd massacre thousands for not holding the same beliefs as they do, then I'll agree with you.
65 - Irene Wagner
Excuse me, but I'm just being a little intellectually curious here: can't two intellectually curious people, even if they're atheists, come to two different conclusions? Isn't that what is happening to Dave Nalle and Glenn Contrarian right now?
A person with intellectual and spiritual curiosity might come to conclusions that are different from those of an atheist...and from those of other people having spiritual curiosity.
Spiritual curiosity and intellectual curiosity. Some people have one, some people have t'other, some people have both, and people, including those who "massacre thousands for not holding the same beliefs as they do," have neither.
66 - Dr Dreadful
Well, I think that's a given, Irene.
Personally I don't take it so far as to imply that you can't be both intellectually and spiritually curious. You only have to read Lewis and Eliot to know the fallaciousness of that.
It's all a matter of degrees, I know, but Glenn does have a point in that whatever else one might be, one is most definitely NOT intellectually curious if one accepts without question the literal infallibility of every word of one's holy book, when one's own eyes could easily tell one otherwise.
67 - Dave Nalle
DAVE - when the eco-freaks and the gay rights crowd massacre thousands for not holding the same beliefs as they do, then I'll agree with you.
Um, when have Christians in modern America massacred thousands? And some (not me) would argue that pro-choicers have massacred millions. And others (me) would argue that these lefty fanatics are the ideological disciples of those who slaughtered millions in the last century and sent millions more to the gulags and killing fields.
Dave
68 - Baronius
Handy stole the word that I had on my mind while I was reading Ruvy's comments - "coy". Anyone who was born and raised in America can't claim ignorance when he calls a half-Kenyan a monkey.
Dread's right that McCain supporters will give Obama a chance. It demonstrates the exact opposite of what he and Glenn said. We crazy religious zealots are more generous to our opponents than open-minded liberals are. That's one of those ironies that you get used to. You can tell it's true because the press reports on the anti-Obama hate, and they always get the story wrong.
As to the original article, it's a reminder that every generation fights the same battles. It wasn't too long ago that the world recognized the folly of socialism, yet here we are again talking about it as a viable alternative.
69 - Irene Wagner
It may be a matter of degrees, Dr. D, or perhaps it's a matter of semantics. Spiritual curiosity and intellectual curiosity intersect in a "why" posed confidently to a God from whom one expects an answer, from whom one has received, after patient application, answers to other intellectual obstacles that seemed absolutely faith-shattering years ago. That's why I'm a fanatic about my Holy Book.
My cold dead hands'll be clasped around it long after anything resembling a firearm will be! :)
Well before I go, Dr. D, for go I must, I have to thank you. You've never pulled any punches in any of our many discussions about faith, but I've also never picked up a "dog in the manger" vibe from you.
70 - Bennett
"the gay rights crowd" ... "these lefty fanatics are the ideological disciples of those who slaughtered millions in the last century and sent millions more to the gulags and killing fields."
Really? I've never thought the gay rights crowd was capable of that. I could be wrong...
71 - Christopher Rose
Irene, how do you square your pretension to any kind of curiosity when you have already decided that you have the answers in your "god" and the bible? I think you're fooling yourself so effectively you can't even see it.
72 - Christopher Rose
Baronius - you state "It wasn't too long ago that the world recognized the folly of socialism". When was that then?
73 - zingzing
when the world confused socialism with communism.
74 - Christopher Rose
The world or just Baronius?
75 - zingzing
well, not just baronius... but not the world either...