The Russo-Georgian War has really brought out the worst in the president and certain members of the media.
There has been a great deal of disinformation, ignoring of facts and downright lying on the part of the Bush Administration and members of the media this week pertaining to events in the Caucasus region. The Russo-Georgian War has really brought out the worst in the president and certain members of the so called “mainstream” media.…
Article comments
26 - Condor
Milosovich's side of the story will never be heard. Was he (1) overtly attacking an old ethnic enemy or (2) trying to stem the tide of drug trafficing (and the accompanying crime syndicates) into Europe to prevent a buildup of armed aggression to his country and its interests?
I've heard both, but the later never really came out in the press, and was just hinted at from a few sources. Which was it?
Milosovich get hauled into an international court, tries to present his country and the case for his actions and dies in his jail cell from an apparent heart condition.
Any answers? How's that for a U.S. perspective?
I guess one could ponder similiar points of contention in the case of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh... the list is endless. Which leads me to believe that history IS always written by the victors.
I am sure of one fact, that the press works for advertizing dollars and will sensationalize when needed to sell copy.
27 - Dr Dreadful
...Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh... the list is endless. Which leads me to believe that history IS always written by the victors.
Who's the victor in Georgia, Condor?
28 - Ruvy
Angela,
Is there something inherently superior in the US perspective that allows a better viewpoint of this Georgia Russia conflict than what a third world, African viewpoint can offer?
Don't know if you are still around to read this but from my mountain roost in Samaria (in Israel), I rely not on the American or European news but on reports filtering in here from Russian Jews and from Georgian Jews, and on reports leaked by the Mossad, Israel's espionage agency. Where the MSM have backed up these reports, I've used them. Otherwise, I ignore the talking heads and the fools, and L-rd knows there are enough of them blabbing their mouths off.
So, it's not an issue of which "world" you come from, Angela. Kenn's perch in Zambia does not afford him the view o the perspective that I have. So, he needs a pair of binoculars. I don't.
29 - Angela Chen Shui
Andy,
I didn't read the piece that way. But maybe that's because I fill my pail of sea salt daily to help me navigate the worldwide outpourings of both media and governments... ;-)
I suppose the essential question is whether the media helps the public to hold governments accountable by an insistent deep drilling down into the issues?
I watched an interview of Konstantin Kosachev, Russian Parliamentary member, this past Sunday.
After discussing whether Russia would honour its agreement and leave Russia the following day, the interviewer again tried to get a solid yes/no answer.
Kossachev responded by saying something to the effect that just as the US cannot say when it will leave Iraq, Russia cannot say when it will leave either.
For the life of me, I could not and still cannot understand how the interviewer left that stone unturned. Wasn't he interested in the connection, even if it was brought up mainly to distract and evade the question?
Wouldn't viewers be interested in that connection from a Russian perspective in the context of the US trying to figure how to deal with this latest Russian show of 'stay out of my backyard/business'?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've felt for a few decades that both the MSM and individual governments are instruments of power bases that have long mastered the manipulation of worldwide public opinion and the organisation of public resources to suit their ends.
In this context, political and other blogs, websites such as blogcritics and some of the more independent, boat-rocking members of the MSM are critical in enabling public awareness and giving voice to public opinion.
We are increasingly able to get live feedback from citizen journalists in international crises. I feel the more we can parse between different MSM sources and these individual sources of information, the more we can find the middle road that more directly reflects the varied perspectives/truths of any matter.
30 - Angela Chen Shui
Ruvy,
Still here... ;-)
The more sources the better. I particularly like yours! ;-)
Question re "Where the MSM have backed up these reports, I've used them."
On average, how long does it take for MSM to back up reports when they do? Just my curiousity, nothing to do with this discussion...
31 - Ruvy
On average, how long does it take for MSM to back up reports when they do? Just my curiosity, nothing to do with this discussion...
Angela,
That will depend on the nature of the report and who benefits from which story. It's a very individual thing.
Where in Jamaica do your write from?
32 - Clavos
I just want to point out that, depending on the level of subscription paid for by the cable or satellite (as in my case) subscriber, ALL broadcast (cable or over-the-air) news outlets from anywhere in the world, are available everywhere in the world, including the US, unless suppressed/censored by authorities in specific locations.
33 - Angela Chen Shui
OK.
"Where in Jamaica do your write from?"
St. Andrew, extension of what's generally called the capital, Kingston.
34 - Angela Chen Shui
Clavos,
Thanks. I've wondered about that before.
Ruvy, just now I clicked submit without asking you the same re your mountain roost... ;-)
35 - Condor
"Who's the victor in Georgia, Condor?" Dreadful Dr.
Is it over?
36 - Condor
Ruvy,
What's your take on Arutz Sheva national news?
I was passed that source a while back and read it regularly.
37 - Dr Dreadful
Exactly.
38 - michael winegart
what did you expect from bush and fox after all they are in bed togther
39 - Ruvy
Angela,
I write from Ma'alé Levoná, a small village of about 100 families near Shiló, where the original mizbéaH or Altar to G-d was located in the days before the First Temple. The web-site is a Hebrew one that provides some nice photos.
Sorry, I couldn't get back to you earlier. I had to grab 40 winks before going on guard duty at the village gate....
I strongly suggest you go to my writer's page here. The last couple of articles are about this little dustup in the Caucasus that may have far far reaching implications.
Blessings from Liberated Samaria,
Ruvy
40 - Ruvy
What's your take on Arutz Sheva national news?
Condor,
Arutz Sheva is the closest thing we have to an independent news source from within Israel. The Hebrew site toes the line of the National Religious Party in Israel, a disgusting bunch of hacks who hold things back terribly. The English site - the moneymaker - is far more independent and provides real news, as well as a point of view that is very different from that of the "Peoples Republic of Tel Aviv" which is the viewpoint of the government, and almost all the rest of the media. The NRP knows enough to keep its paws off the English site.
Let's put it this way. On Arutz Sheva, G-d is not a dirty word. The way we see it, G-d gifted us with this land and commanded us to live here. That covenant is far more important to us than any scrap of paper from the UN, League of Nations, or any other bunch of mere mortals. And that basic viewpoint is the background music behind all that you read there, or any radio show you listen to at Israel National Radio. But, for all that, you won't get preached to at Arutz Sheva. You'll get news and not Israeli government propaganda.
In short, they are good people who are the closest thing we have to the "good guys" in the news service.
41 - Ale
I would like to know what history books you are referring to for your history of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia? For your information, they are both historically part of Georgia. South Ossetia is the Georgian region of Samochablo. It was inhabited by Ossetians in the 18/19th centuries when they moved south from their homeland in present day N. Ossetia in Russia. Abkhazia is also historically part of Georgia. It seems the problem is partially that your information comes from Russia Today - a government news project. I hope you are not teaching this poorly informed "history" to your students. You would do them a great disservice. And by the way, I am here on the ground and I must say that the western media is doing a surprising good job of reporting on events here with just slight inaccuracies. There is considerable evidence that Russia was preparing for this and provoked Georgia to take action. The self-proclaimed "president" of S. Ossetia even called for the evacuation of women and children a full two weeks before this began - and thousands left for Russia. Georgians are not monsters and don't fall to the trap of the Russian media and believe the trash they try to pass off as news. Be smarter than them and do some research.
42 - Kenn Jacobine
Ale,
Under your logic the United States should be given back to its original inhabitants - the Native Americans. We both know that that is not going to happen. Obviously, over time things change in history. You said it correctly about South Ossetia, "It was inhabited by Ossetians in the 18/19th centuries when they moved south from their homeland in present day N. Ossetia in Russia". And these people have been subject to colonization ever since - first the Ottomans, then the Russians then the Soviets who incorporated them back into Georgia. They fought battles in the early 1990s to gain independence and the ceasefire gave it to them. The U.S. and Israel have armed Saakashvili to the tune of many millions of dollars in order for him to break the ceasefire and invade the sovereign territory of South Ossetia. I know the Georgian people are good people. I had a friend who lived there for the last year. But, Saakhasvili is no less a war criminal than George Bush. Both have invaded sovereign territories under false pretenses and are responsible for thousands of lives. The Georgian army got what it deserved. I am for people anywhere who want there freedom. What is good for Kosovo is also good for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
43 - Dave Nalle
Saakhasvili is no less a war criminal than George Bush.
I agree. Neither are war criminals.
Both have invaded sovereign territories under false pretenses and are responsible for thousands of lives.
S. Ossetia was NOT a sovereign territory and never had been. Just having a population of ethnic minorities doesn't make you a nation. Should we allow Mississippi to secede from the union because it has a majority African American population?
The Georgian army got what it deserved.
What is the punishment for rescuing people from being raped and murdered again?
Dave
44 - Ale
Thank you Dave.
Ken, sorry, but your argument does not hold water. The territory now referred to as S. Ossetia (historic Samochablo) has always been a part of Georgia and has never been a sovereign territory, nor has Abkhazia. What do you say then to the over 400,000 Georgians who have been chased from their homes in those regions since 1990? They deserve to return to their homes and the land that belongs to them. Russia has provoked this conflict for years in an attempt to keep Georgia unstable.
"And these people have been subject to colonization ever since - first the Ottomans, then the Russians then the Soviets"
Georgia was colonized, what makes the S. Ossetian case special? Everyone who lived there, no matter their ethnic make-up suffered the same fate. I do not claim that the S. Ossetians don't belong there, their families moved there, but they moved to live in Georgia with Georgians.
To say that the Georgian military got what it deserves is not appropriate. Georgians have been coming under fire from S. Ossetian rebels for some time and the military was charged with protecting them. Would you not hope for protection if you were under attack?
I don't think having a friend who lived in Georgia for a year qualifies one to make such uninformed statements about a conflict. Again, it is fine to state one's opinion, but not to carry it off as fact and lead people to believe you speak the truth. Please take care with what you say.
45 - Kenn Jacobine
To Dave and Ale,
Dave -
What is your definition then of a war criminal?
South Ossetia has had de facto sovereignty since 1991's ceasefire agreement, therefore Saakhasvili did invade a sovereign territory. In my view, under our constitution if Mississippi wanted to secede from the Union there is nothing constitutionally preventing them from doing so. Again, I am for anybody anywhere who wants their freedom. I realize that if you are a statist this is hard to stomach, however I believe people (corporately) should be free to choose their destiny just like you should individually be free to do the same thing - unless you hurt someone else in the process. You might call this political capitalism.
Your third point is subjective, probably formed by viewing in this case the biased reporting of the MSM. News reports I have seen indicated that the Russians arrived in South Ossetia to stop the carnage carried out by the Georgian army. Aljazeera as well as Russia Today reported this. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between and have based my whole point in this matter on the fact that the Georgian army invaded a sovereign territory with the help of the U.S. and Israel and with the U.S. media being complicit in the attack - appalling!
Ale
First of all, "I don't think having a friend who lived in Georgia for a year qualifies one to make such uninformed statements about a conflict." I never claimed that. What I said was "I know the Georgian people are good people. "I had a friend who lived there for the last year." Please do not misquote me.
"What do you say then to the over 400,000 Georgians who have been chased from their homes in those regions since 1990? They deserve to return to their homes and the land that belongs to them."
Again, this logic would mandate that the Native Americans should be given back their land in the U.S. Things change over time in history. The Jews migrated to Palestine after WWI and eventually had enough numbers to take over and form the State of Israel. Many Palestinians were displaced. Do you favor giving the Palestinians their land back. By the way, wasn't Palestine settled by the ancesters of the Palestinians, the Philistines, first? Therefore, doesn't the territory really belong to the Palestinians not the Israelis under your logic?
Lastly, yes, Georgia has also suffered under colonization. Frankly, colonization must stop in all parts of the world if we are to realize world peace. I don't favor Georgia being colonized just like I don't favor South Ossetia and Abkhazia being colonized. Perhaps the U.N. could make itself useful by holding a real referendum in the two breakaway republics. The referendum would be binding on all parties with international oversight.
For the record, I do enter my blog entries as opinion pieces and they do represent the truth as I see it.
Thanks for the debate fellas, its been fun.
Kenn
46 - Ruvy
Kenn,
I have two comments to make to you.
1. This story is not over. The events in Gruzia are just the opening chapter for a far wider conflict to erupt in a far more vicious way. You will see this in the coming months. Stop worrying about S. Ossetia and Gruzia and start paying attention to the Russian military and to the seeming flaccidness of the United States Armed Forces - starting with its Commander-in-Chief. Russia has already demonstrated its ability to cow all of Europe, both in and out of NATO.
2. Learn your history. Your attempts at allegory suffer from your ignorance of history.
The Jews migrated to Palestine after WWI and eventually had enough numbers to take over and form the State of Israel. Many Palestinians were displaced. Do you favor giving the Palestinians their land back. By the way, wasn't Palestine settled by the ancesters of the Palestinians, the Philistines, first? Therefore, doesn't the territory really belong to the Palestinians not the Israelis under your logic?
a. The people called "Palestinians" during the thirty year rule of the British Mandate were JEWS. The Arabs rejected the title and only after 1960 did they figure out to seize it and use it.
b. The country known as Judea or Coele Syria was renamed Syria Palestina by the Romans in an attempt to insult the Jews they persecuted. The Philistines, were a Greek-related people, refugees of a disaster in the Mediterranean and had nothing to do with Arabs at all. The Arabs are latecomers to the land, and their agricultural habits - allowing sheep and goats to eat every last bit of grass, thus wrecking the topsoil - turned this country into a wasteland. The Arab is truly the Father of the Desert.
I've also enjoyed the debate.
Have a good week - shavua tov from Liberated Samaria.
47 - Kenn Jacobine
Ruvy,
With all do respect, when you say "learn your history", which history are you talking about? History is generally written by the winners and you have obviously read the winning side of Middle Eastern history.
"The people called "Palestinians" during the thirty year rule of the British Mandate were JEWS. The Arabs rejected the title and only after 1960 did they figure out to seize it and use it."
I must say I have never heard that one probably because growing up I learned American and Western history exclusively in school. I guess that is why the "JEWS" that lived in Palestine when Israel was founded fled the day after the founding - because they didn't want to be reunited with their Jewish brothers.
The whole point of my article was precisely your point in comment #1. This U.S. administration, Israel, and the MSM will be responsible if they are not already for starting the second Cold War. Russia is not going to give up the Balkans and Caucasians because of its paronoia with invasion. These are regions that are well within its sphere of influence. The U.S. should recognize this, and stop policing every little inch of the globe. The Bush Administration is bankrupting the future of our country.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Shalom,
Kenn