The protests accompanying the torch lighting-bearing ceremony may force China's hand in remaining stable on the "J Curve."
The president of the Association of National Olympic Committees recently said that the Olympic games will present few problems, that he is confident than any minor problems will diminish as the games approach, and that humanity will be served by "allowing for greater understanding between the peoples of the world. . . " Meanwhile, the torch lighting-bearing process has been in full swing throughout much of the world. At the torch lighting ceremony in Greece, IOC President Jacques Rogge echoed these wholesome sentiments.…
Article comments
26 - Clavos
Were you good at dodgeball (or the South African equivalent) when you were a kid, Zedd?
I'll take your non-answer to my question in #18 as a no.
Which would mean that you think the US should intervene in other countries when you approve.
Remember that at the time we intervened in Iraq, practically the whole country (including the majority of Congress) was in agreement. It was only later, with the benefit of hindsight that opinions changed.
Responding to your challenge:
NO. I think if we (the US, not Mexico) are going to take the attitude that we should not intervene in foreign countries, then we should not intervene AT ALL anywhere in Africa, regardless of the circumstances.
As Dan Miller pointed out in this thread:
"If we intervene, however mildly, we will [be] seen as vicious imperialists; If we don't, we will be seen as uncaring swine."
I think he's right, and I think it's time we tend our own home first.
We never had any colonies in Africa, nor any significant presence there, and we are not responsible for anything going on there.
27 - Matthew T. Sussman
"The West does not always speak in one voice but doe so most of the time."
Could not agree more. Nuances abound in today's cultures. A small yet vocal sample size does not speak for all! I'm glad you think the same w..
"We got REALLY silly, protesting to the extent of threatening to only eat "freedom fries" (flush, flush). And they call Americans dumb."
...Oh.
28 - Bennett
Comments # 5, 9, 13, 14, 20, 22, & 23...
This dude is employed by the government of China's official:
"Oh So Friendly We Reach Out and Make Lies" program.
Kinda like Dave Nalle on water chestnuts.
29 - Zedd
Clavos,
- I wouldn't call the Iraq war an intervention. It is a take over.
You forget, we went into Iraq because of 911. We were told that they had something to do with it so we attacked. Many of us did not believe it. Remember the massive protests???
- I grew up in the U.S. Clav.
30 - peace
Bennett:
correct you: you should say these two dudes, we are different, although we all are dude like you, you may go back to your mom's arms again to get a little more education to improve your judgment ability.
31 - peace
You may find some fresh information about holy Dalai lama
32 - Clavos
Funny how the Chinese always find threads involving China within hours of their being posted.
And funny how they always turn out to be in the employ of The People's (read Communist) Republic.
Loved your "Poem" :>), "peace."
Don't quit your day job...
33 - Bennett
peace:
You should go back to your master and say "Western blog devils not buy what we selling."
34 - Clavos
- I wouldn't call the Iraq war an intervention. It is a take over.
Take over of what, Zedd?
There's nothing worth taking over in Iraq except the oil fields, and despite what the DailyKos and Moveon say, those are still under the control of the Iraqis, who are receiving all the revenue from them.
I grew up in the U.S. Clav.
Too bad for you. I didn't.
35 - Dr Dreadful
Years ago I met a Chinese guy in a chatroom. Nice bloke, had a few good chats. Then he said he wanted to talk about Chinese politics, so I asked him about Tibet. Never heard from him again.
36 - peace
Clavos:
I come to this website often and my main purpose is to learn language real American use in arguing. If it is not something that insult all Chinese, I do not like to comment. I do have my day job, I also helped two american companies sold their products to China. I also believe that you will not believe this based on your Qs. But that does not matter.
I just hope people can be fair, but we Chinese really do not care people like you against us or not, we will do what we should do. What I want to do is providing different information, this is also fit your guys principle, free world, free speech.
Here are points from some other american on another forum ( not american are the same kind with you and have the same Qs:):
What I found revealing in China was:
1. Chinese people (including younger middle-aged people) pointing out that when they were children, they "did not have all they needed"... (euphemism for: "we did not even have enough to eat -- that thought would often bring tears to their eyes)... then adding, admiringly, that they never would have even dreamt that China would become, so soon, what it has now become..
2. Chinese people standing publicly in awe, everywhere, staring proudly at the truly impressive achievements that surround them, in what is now modern China: innumerable public buildings of great architectural beauty, huge, impressive apartment buildings, magnificent, futuristic airports, trains, aircrafts, subways, roads, bridges, efficient public services, so many tourists everywhere, thanks to a thriving tourist industry, etc..
3. Chinese people being, in general, so reserved, yet so charming, so outwardly healthy looking, calm and serene, endowed with such an endearing sense of humour, even when leading a very difficult, demanding life, more particularly by our standards..
4. Chinese people being so proud of their past, of China's long history, rich culture, unfailing creativity and originality..
5. How free people were, in their everyday life, how respectful of and interested in the minorities they were, and how well minorities were developing..
I noticed that all Westerners I have known, in China, were fascinated to discover what a modern and rich country China was, having expected to visit what they were convinced was nothing but "a terribly underdeveloped country". Most of all, those Westerners found it humiliating to have to admit wishing their own country was, in some respects, as modern as China has become..
That had me conclude that Chinese people (including Chinese people from the diaspora, all over the world) were much more supportive and proud of their country and of their country's leadership, than we are led to believe, in the West..
I am sure of one thing: from now on, Chinese people will never settle for anything less than being treated as equals. In today's world, they will never accept that China be snubbed and humiliated by Western powers, as was done in the past. It would be a grave mistake for us not to remember that. Any attempt to humiliate China is bound to bring Chinese people together like has never been seen before..
In view of the above, I believe things are working quite well for China..
Is their model sustainable? Well, are we not the ones who are, avowedly, still looking for a model of sustainable development?.
April 10, 2008 10:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments.
Posted on April 10, 2008 22:11
Chet from CA:.
Ed has got it right. You have to know Chinese history to understand China.
In Xian, they have the 6000 terra cotta warriors who guard the secret tomb of Shi Huang Di, the Emperor who unified China in 220 BC. The warriors are mostly smashed. They have a beautiful movie-in-the-round about the peasant revolt that smashed the warriors duing his son's reign and overthrew the 1st Dynasty. The message is that the Dynasty falls when it looses the Mantle of Heaven. In western terms that is when it fails the social contract.
The Party is a Dynasty that is only 60 years old. It is in it's 2nd social contract, the 1st was liberation. The current one is power in exchange for prosperity. They clearly achieved the 1st and so far are successful with the second though it grows harder for reasons other bloggers have already suggested.
I have a number of Chinese Skype-chat buddies with whom I have been discussing current events. They don't think they're in danger of arrest for taking to me about all kinds of stuff. That's unlike Muslims I met in Xinjiang who said they could be arrested for honestly answering my questions. (It was "how do you feel about 30,000 American troops 140 miles away in Afganistan")
The Chinese are very concerned with national stability. They don't think their individual, and they are individualistic, life plans work without it.
One time I went to Tiananmen Sq. with a georgeous young Chinese woman of 28, to see the evening flag lowering ceremony. She pointed to the huge picture of Mao over the Gate of Heavenly Peace. She said "there is where Mao declared the New China. He said it was the end of 100 years of defeat and disgrace and that women held up half the sky. It doesn't matter what he did after that." There were tears in her eyes as she spoke.
I don't think we should piss these people off..
April 10, 2008 10:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments.
Posted on April 10, 2008 22:04
HS:.
It is quite absurd that whenever a subject about China was brought up it always focus on communism, human rights, etc. People fail to recognize that every country can take its own route to modernity. The Europeans took the route of colonialism and slave trade. The American took the route of slaughtering of the native Indians. China took a different route which is much more peaceful and non-destructive to other nations..
The current generation of European and American has conveniently forgot that as beneficiaries of their ancestor's crimes and human rights abuses, they are also rightfully inheriting the guilt of their ancestor's crimes until they have fully repaid the damages to the people and nations still suffering from lasting effects of those crimes..
Before they clean them-self through good deeds they won't be qualified to play the role of human rights cops. Rushing into that role before been guilty-free will only make them disingenuous..
April 10, 2008 9:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments .
Ed:.
.
Most Americans know very little about Chinese history. Each of the major dynasties, such as Han, Tang, Song, Ming and Qing, lasted longer than the history of the independent United States. There have often been cycles in Chinese history whereby a highly centralized government was replaced by disunity, usually as a consequence of internal rebellions and/or foreign aggressors..
Few Americans realize China has been a united nation, free from foreign imperialism or aggression, in the modern era, only since 1949. There have been radical social, economic and cultural changes in China since about 1979. China today is in some ways similar to the United States or Great Britain during the first hundred years of their industrial development. There is rampant capitalism, increasingly a gap between the rich and poor, a rising middle class, inadequate regard for worker safety or the natural environment. However, there is also a consumer culture similar to that in the contemporary United States, Europe and Japan..
The Nationalists also aspired to be a single party government, a fact that did not bother hardly anyone in the West between the 1920's and 1940's. China does have elections at the local level in many villages. There is a strong likelihood these elections may spread to larger entities in the near future..
Many Americans expect China and every country should become a democracy, similar to the United States. Actually the United States is not a democracy and was not intended to be a democracy by the Founding Fathers. Most of the Federalist leaders were openly anti-democratic. The electoral college system of electing a president is hardly democratic. Nor is it democratic for states with a small population to have as much power in the Senate as California or Texas. The right to vote was denied to significant groups of Americans until fairly recently. My point is the growth and spread of "democracy" in this country was a very slow process..
In conclusion, there is a high likelihood the existing system in China, as you described, which has only lasted about thirty years, is temporary and will be subject to changes during this century. Just as it took many decades for effective government regulation to protect workers and the environment, to some extent, in the United States, one can not realistically expect comparable change in China to occur at a far more rapid pace. I think laws to protect workers, consumers and the ennvironment will take place in China before major changes in the political system
37 - peace
By the way, that is not my poem, I copied from another website.
Another fact about me: I am a minority in China, I am not Han, I am a Manchu. If you know the chinese history, especially the Qing dynasty, you will know why I hate some arrogant and ignorant sons of ex-thugs pretending to be the world's moral model.
38 - Franco
peace,
After reading all of your posts I take it you don’t like the Western free world. Would that be a fair assessment?
39 - Clavos
peace,
Thank you for your comment.
I'm well aware there are Americans who disagree with my point of view; I think that they, for the most part, are mistaken in their views, particularly those Americans who advocate that the US adopt a Socialist or Communist economic/political system. But, as you point out, one of our most fundamental freedoms is the right to speak one's mind and hold opinions publicly, and therefore, i respect the right of those who disagree witrh me to do so until they begin to interfere with my rights..
I'm also well aware that the US was not intended to be a democracy, and I am in agreement with that principle espoused by the founders; I deplore the attempts to turn the US into a democracy, I believe a truly democratic form of government can only be chaotic and fail. I hope the US does NOT become a democracy, and further I do NOT think that the US system of economics/politics is vastly superior to all others, nor do I think we should attempt to export it. What works for US is uniquely ours, and is not necessarily appropriate for others, especially cultures (such as yours) which are different from ours in very fundamental and elemental ways.
I also believe that the US should not intervene in the internal affairs of other countries, even if those other countries are systematically committing genocide on their people, as in Cambodia in the 70s; it's none of our business until and unless another country threatens our own security, in which case I think we should crush them by whatever means necessary until the threat is well and truly eradicated.
I believe firmly in international trade, because I believe that, as countries engage in trade with each other, their interests become intertwined and mutual, and they are less likely to go to war as a result.
40 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I'm kinda glad Israel has been left out of this debate, and I like it that way. We get dragged into too much as it is.
I'm not going to comment on the substantive issues here, just make a few ancillary observations.
1. Communist China is a dictatorship and its government employs agents to confuse bloggers.
The Communist Chinese government does interfere in Google and other major search engines, ands Google and other major search engines do cooperate with the Chinese government in helping them find and squelch dissident opinion.
2. Having said this, non-Chinese tend to forget how many nations live in China, all classified ignorantly by foreigners as "squint-eyed wankers"; in addition there are are several languages which are related but rather separate, all called "Chinese" by ignorant foreigners.
3. Finally, great powers get to send military and para-military forces overseas to enforce their policies. In this respect, the Chinese are no different from the Americans, the French, the British or the Russians. It is about time that the rest of the world acknowledged as a great power.
41 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
That ought to have read: "It is about time that the rest of the world acknowledged CHINA as a great power."
42 - Zedd
"Finally, great powers get to send military and para-military forces overseas to enforce their policies. In this respect, the Chinese are no different from the Americans, the French, the British or the Russians."
Precisely!
43 - peace
Ruvy in Jerusalem:
Same logic can be applied to everybody, including you. You must be an agent of your government, right? Because you always defend your country.
In my impression (actually most Chinese), your people should be smarter than that. Do not you think?
Franco: I do not hate free world, I like it and that is why I am in this world now. Did I ever defend for communism? Let hope together that Communism will go to hell earlier. Oops, my government master will cut my bonus, oh my money!
44 - Franco
#43 " peace
Franco: I do not hate free world, I like it and that is why I am in this world now. Did I ever defend for communism? Let hope together that Communism will go to hell earlier. Oops, my government master will cut my bonus, oh my money!
It is nice to hear that you like the free world. It was not easy to understand that because of the negative western tone in your posts.
What do you mean when you say, “Oops, my government master will cut my bonus, oh my money!” Is that a joke or are you being sincere?
45 - peace
Franco:
Are you an American? Please have a little sense of humor. This is one of the reasons I like most American.
I do not like to comment on other countries' issue, but I do have the right to say sth when people talking about China, do not I?
Do I have to keep quiet to avoid some jerks suppecting that I am some kind of low life government agent?
Who cares about them? I just say what I want to say and whenever I want to say. Just like sometimes I do fight with Chinese han people. I hate some of them too. Oops, all bonus gone, I need to be silent to keep my salary from my government master.
46 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Same logic can be applied to everybody, including you. You must be an agent of your government, right? Because you always defend your country.
Arrogance ill-befits ignorance. I did not accuse you of being an agent for your government, nor did I say that all Chinese commenting here are government agents. And if you read the corpus of my work here at Blogcritics you'll see how much I defend the ruling regime here.
Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy
47 - peace
Ruvy,
I know you are smart, but try not to be too smart.
What does "I did not accuse you of being an agent for your government" mean? I am an agent, right? You think I am or not, does that really matter?
You are smart not to talking human right here, otherwise I would like very much to hear your opinion on human right, let's start with human right in Middle east, how does that sound?
48 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Peace,
Do me a favor and read what I have written here - ninety seven articles plus thousands of comments - and you will see my opinions about human rights in the Middle East, among other things.
Then come back and talk to me....
Shavua Tov,
Have a good week
49 - peace
Ruvy:
I wish I can have enough time to read your comment. I also would rather leave the opportunity to a Palestinian to talk about human right with you. Once you can persuade him that what your people did there is completely right, then you can start to comment on how human right in China is bad.
Make sure your mask is in good condition (I wonder why you guys need that, it is mystic to me). Bless you.
50 - james
As being a chinese youth in hanghou, i really wanna to see people all round the world will come to Beijing, the politics should have no connection with the sports event, if something happened like beijing olympics, then when the next round Britain hosting events we are not sure what kind of incidents will happen? I just hoping people will not be foolished by politicans, at the end, the victims still us-oridinary people.