The hidden agenda aside, what exactly is the National Day of Prayer going to do for us and for the nation? At a time when it's so abundantly clear that what we need is greater self-reliance and a rebirth of personal responsibility - not to mention calling on our government to exercise responsibility and restraint - they want to urge us to look to a higher power for answers. They actually single out self-reliance in the Lausanne Covenant as the single greatest threat to society. People taking responsibility for their actions, solving problems for thenselves and working to make the world better is in direct opposition to their philosophy of turning to God for every solution and the church for every answer.
The problem with this sort of fundamentalist Christianity is that it hammers home a very, very negative message. It tells us that we aren't in control of our own lives. When something goes wrong, blame it on the demonic forces in our secularized society. It tells us that we don't need to take responsibility to solve our own problems and make our nation a better more responsible nation. All we have to do is turn to God and faith and prayer will solve all our problems. And if that doesn't work, then government will solve them, so long as we make sure there's enough godliness in the government. This is a sick, selfish and opportunistic abuse of Christianity and of those Christians weak enough to be sucked into it. It conditions them to look to God and prayer as a great escape clause and to church leaders for day to day guidance. It paints as acceptable the subordination of individual will and representative government to the rule of God and faith.
Bondage to a single, exclusionary, cult-like religious sect isn't exactly what I think of when I see the word 'freedom', and it's not at all what this country was founded on. In fact, many men of faith throughout history - like Martin Luther and John Wesley - argued that it's not what Christianity should be about either. Their fanaticism makes people like Dr. James Dobson and his followers strong. They have no doubts, no questions, no consideration for anything but their agenda. While our minds boggle and we laugh off the idea of a concerted campaign to virally Christianize our children, they just plug ahead with programs like the NDP to make that plan a reality.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - MDE
Excellent post, Dave. My knees are too arthritic to pray like that ... I guess that I'm damned. Keep you head down around this culture war within the Culture War.
Mark
2 - Ezra Pound
If you have to ask the question.... I found this on another blog critics topic and thought it was interesting... we will have to join into the lengthy debate... but here's a snippet.
“[whomever] never said you had any faith. But you did talk about religion, while, perhaps being devoid of that.
I can not understand how atheists can enter into discussions of faith, when they have none... but their religion is non-belief.... hmmm, do they believe in non-belief... perhaps I will go back to my study and ponder...
I guess you can have religion (the religion of not believing), and you can have belief, in not believing... but you can't have faith in God if you don't believe, and religion might be a cover up for something other than what is really is... hmmm.
If you wish to talk about God, don't, unless you have God in your heart... it's pointless to do otherwise. Seek the paraclete, receive the endument [indwelling] and then you will have reference."
I thought it was an interesting viewpoint. Which if interpreted from several angles talks to:
Religion could have many ulterior motives (all faiths) as they are tradition based, and thusly are man derived.
Belief is what you make it. You can choose to belief in God, or not. If you choose not to... you BELIEVE that God is a myth.
Faith is the same (this is where I differ from the above quote), unless you are sure to include the caveat "God" either specifically or generally.
David, if you haven't already, you should enroll in a Theology Class, I'll offer up a "Theology of the New Testament" as a good one. Why? Because it will show you what theology really is. Hint: it's a science of antiquities related to written texts, and the relationships, if any, between them. You will walk away from that class disputing any scriptural reference, based on scientific fact, rather than gut instinct. Scriptures, especially NT, were heavily edited from centuries after the beginning of the Common Era. Additions, deletions... the establishment of the canon, gnostic purges, inquisitions.
Martin Luther came around and tried to fix it up a bit, and was largely thwarted when the KJV project was pressured from Rome and "additional" renderings were added, and are now known to have no historical context back to the original renderings... it's amazing stuff, with the added benefit of destroying the "myth" of God in the minds of many.
But it still leaves us with questions, such as... what about miracles? They do occur, and they occur frequently, with no explanation other than from God. They do occur, I've seen 'em, and if you live long enough and look around, you'll see them too. That’s another one of those pesky gut instincts that you cannot prove or disprove.
I'll admit, I don't have answers. But I look at it this way. There exists archaeological evidence of some scriptural history, there exists the presence of spirit, and the anomaly of miracles, and 12 dudes who were not the most educated people in the world, couldn't have been working in a vacuum when this Jesus dude was walking the earth. Thousands and thousands of people actually experienced first hand the phenomenon of Jesus, and spread the news... something was happening.
What was it, exactly? To have propagated from 12 poor, uneducated, fishermen from Judah, Nazareth and Galilee, throughout western civilization and western thought, through the Roman empire, to have been put through the test and the inquisitions, and the heavy handedness of the Roman system... Wow, it's incredible it even survived, and flourished. Historically, alone, it's amazing it still exists.
How much historical influence actually remains in modern culture from 2000+ years ago; I contend -- not much.
Where does that put it? Phenomenon, passing something-or-other, or something beyond explanation. If one can't explain it... it then becomes faith.
What is faith? Something unexplainable to most people.
And as the initial quote stated:
"If you wish to talk about God, don't, unless you have God in your heart... it's pointless to do otherwise. Seek the paraclete, receive the endument [indwelling] and then you will have reference."
Best advice I've heard all day, and it's early yet.
EP
3 - Steve S
Dave, I know what your true intent is. You see a coming backlash to the religious right, and so you want to separate the religious right from the Republican party, is that correct? If I were in your ideological shoes, that's probably what I would be trying to do.
What's odd to me, is that the Republican party used the neo-con fundamentalist right to gain power, but now it's the neo-cons who are doing all the political shenanigans, while the 'moderate' Republicans who want to distance themselves from this group that they gave so much power too, are doing nothing politically to stop it.
Whether it's amending the constitution or allowing pharmacists to dispense medicine based on religious belief, etc. there are dozens of things the Religious Right has done that are absolutely destructive to the principles of America, and they have done so under the banner of the Republican party.
The Day Of Silence, is a nationwide event that schools do. All those who participate, take a day of silence to protest violence against gays and lesbians in school. This concept was created BY students, for students and is about students. This is true activism in action, and it has now grown to a large enough event that Maya Keyes was the closing speaker at this years event. It's all about the students.
Now, we have the Day of Truth. A counter protest. And Foxnews says this about it:
"The Day of Silence was an event conceived of by students themselves in response to a very real problem of bullying and harassment they saw on their campuses," Jennings said. "The Day of Truth is a publicity stunt cooked up by a conservative organization with a political agenda; it's an effort by adults to manipulate some kids." source
It's just enough. No, it has gone way beyond enough. If your Republican Liberation Front, or whatever breakaway group you are with, that wants to return the Republican party for what you believe it truly represents doesnt' do something SOON, then many of us will have no choice but to condemn and label the entire Republican party as a theocratic nightmare undermining democracy, because that's what your party is doing and nobody in your party is trying to stop it. The ability to separate theocracy from the Republican party isn't going to be easy, if the Republican party doesn't take more active steps in that direction FIRST.
Throwing Frist and DeLay on the proverbial bonfire is the LEAST your party can do to make amends for all the disasters the party has done in the last 4+ years.
4 - Dave Nalle
Ah, but I don't have any intention of talking about God. My intent in the article is to talk about aggressive, intrusive proselytization and those who think that they should impose their view of religion on everyone in the world. That has nothing to do with God and everything to do with arrogant religiosity.
Dave
5 - Bennett Dawson
GREAT POST DAVE!!!
And a great follow up by Steve S.
Thanks, both of you!
6 - Jon Sobel
That picture looks kind of like the crouching position we were taught to get into to during those Cold War air raid drills. Back then, we were afraid of the "godless Communists." How times have changed.
"Throwing Frist and DeLay on the proverbial bonfire is the LEAST your party can do"...
Actually, I think posts like this one are helpful too. Though I disagree with many of Dave's political opinions, I'd much rather be battling it out with a party of freethinking Republicans than one dominated by religious fervor.
7 - Ezra Pound
Dave replies:
"That has nothing to do with God and everything to do with arrogant religiosity"
I can relate to that... religionism is, as stated previously, from and about man, and shares direct connection with the "traditions of man" (to quote an analogy). Believe it or not, the "the traditions of man" is a basic tenet that scriptural [Christian] references rail against.
It is interesting how "religiosity" has missed that, and continues to hammer it into contemporary thought.
Faith, is not about the traditions of man. Judeo Christian doctrines and the mis-application thereof, can't seem to shake it... or has re-introduced the flawed concept back into the dialog.
Thanks!
EP
8 - Wiley
"Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar's"
While Jesus of Nazareth was holding up a Roman coin, when he coined the phrase, it has been limited to thoughts about money and taxes. It belongs to a broader translation.
Simply put... if it belongs to the world (the natural world), leave it there. Let the "world" hash it out. Or, leave it there, we have other things to do, or think towards.
9 - Steve S
I had said:
"Throwing Frist and DeLay on the proverbial bonfire is the LEAST your party can do"...
Jon responded:
Actually, I think posts like this one are helpful too. Though I disagree with many of Dave's political opinions, I'd much rather be battling it out with a party of freethinking Republicans than one dominated by religious fervor.
I agree, Jon. Although this post comes from Dave and not the Republican party. See the difference? With all due respect to Dave, one man trying to save his ideology from being dragged down with a sinking ship, he finds it got aligned with, is not the same as the Republican party making amends for all the zoo animals they let out of the cages.
(how about that, a Titanic and a zoo analogy in the same sentence).
10 - bhw
On the National Day of Prayer, I will pray for the end of "national days" of anything.
But I don't expect anyone to be listening.
11 - JR
Steve S: Dave, I know what your true intent is. You see a coming backlash to the religious right, and so you want to separate the religious right from the Republican party, is that correct?
You're a sharp dude, Steve S.
If I were in your ideological shoes, that's probably what I would be trying to do.
And if I wanted to promote George W. Bush and his policies, I'd probably try to position myself as a political independent by highlighting my differences with Bush, even while I laud his major initiatives (Iraq, Social Security, No Child Left Behind). I might even point out weaknesses in said initiatives, but I'd make sure to emphasize the lack of any alternatives from Bush's opponents. For every criticism I leveled at Bush and the Republicans, I'd demonize the Democrats ten times over. But I'd always be very careful to disguise my partisanship by trying to portray myself as ideologically independent of the administration so as to maintain some semblance of credibility.
And if I were Karl Rove, I'd send checks to people to post on the internet, just like I'd send checks to columnists to write favorable editorials. And I'd encourage my internet posters to sound as independent as they could while still backing my policies - if they got too far off message, my administration wouldn't have to disassociate ourselves from some random guy on the web.
That's what I'd do. I'd love to find out whether or not Rove and Co. have ever done this; but I suppose unless someone can follow the money, we'll never know for sure.
Sorry to get off topic; just ruminating apropos of nothing...
12 - SFC SKI
" There's something truly disturbing about the pictures of otherwise normal kids praying while surrounded by other kids engaging in their regular school activities. It brings to mind the idea of conversion by viral infection and a kind of environment of silent confrontation which could only be unhealthy for the learning environment."
Yep, you should be afraid that these kids might actually be good examples and others might consider living by those examples as well.
While I think Dobson and his ilk would be better off doing a "National Ministry Day" and do good works as outlined in their Bible, I am always bemused that some are so afraid of anyone exercising their faith. Somehow, praying in public threatens those who don't want to pray at all.
Flip that argument, a person says that something non-religious offends them, and the usual response is to say,"Well, don't look, or don't go there, or change the channel" as it applies.
The bottom line is, you are not required to believe anything. Dobson is not representative of Christianity anymore than the KKK is representative of conservatives.
13 - Bennett Dawson
Hey, Has anyone's check from Carl arrived yet? I thought you guys said they would be here before the 15th!
14 - MDE
re:" Dobson is not representative of Christianity anymore than the KKK is representative of conservatives."
Odd that you should write this. As a youth, I sat on porches through the deep south and heard stories of how (not long ago) being conservative did mean joining the KKK. Then came the civil right movement, and the Knights kinda went out of style.
Dobson doesn't represent Christianity, but he sure represents a bunch of Christians. This may become a real problem if he can focus this (now become) political power onto the judicial nomination process by claiming that the opposition is motivated by 'anti-Christian' motives. Per Rob Garver http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=9499
(It is understood that the American Prospect is put out by a liberal group. Look beyond the messenger to the message. This is not to say that we will not hear about it if Garver is disinforming...)
Mark
15 - SFC SKI
I can see where this would be a problem as outlined in the article.
16 - MDE
re:"motivated by 'anti-Christian' motives"
Geeze - Who wrote that? Was it me?
17 - Margaret Romao Toigo
The expressions of wrath and the manifestations of theophobia only encourage the fanatics -- the more power-hungry of whom are no doubt filled with pride at the very idea of having angered and frightened the "non-believers" -- by convincing them that they are a force to be reckoned with when, in fact, they are actually nothing but a small (yet very noisy) fringe group of lost and confused souls (may god have mercy upon them) with savvy PR skills.
And their pride will be their downfall for "Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18).
And when the wages of greed and lust [for power] become due, the Republican Party will be joining the fanatics in destruction unless it starts putting some distance between itself and the dogma of that little fringe group it keeps milking for votes.
18 - Bennett Dawson
Gosh Margaret, I hope you are right. Unfortunately this little fringe group taps into your midwest "Church every Sunday" Christian base. It's sorta like the Mullahs in Iraq and Iran, you wish they'd stop spouting all the incindiary rhetoric, but how do you get them to shut up already?
I'm not afraid of the Christian Right, but if they continue to grab power (Supreme Court) over the next ten years I can't imagine what we will be facing as a nation. Will more and more centralist legislators be driven from office by a wave of hyped up faith based voters? Will our personal freedoms be subjected to clerical approval? Will my self sufficient lifestyle doom my children to abuse at the hands of crusifix wearing zelots - in elementary school?
Faith is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands, and we have half a nation here that believes I should be "born again" and establish a "personal relationship with Jesus" - in order to be "saved" from "hell".
Now that kinda scares me.
19 - Dave Nalle
>>Dave, I know what your true intent is. You see a coming backlash to the religious right, and so you want to separate the religious right from the Republican party, is that correct? If I were in your ideological shoes, that's probably what I would be trying to do.<<
That would be fine with me, yes. But I'm also perfectly happy with the backlash smashing the party and achieving the same result when two parties emerge from the rubble - even if that means a longer recovery time. It would be nice if the real Republicans could keep the name, though.
>>What's odd to me, is that the Republican party used the neo-con fundamentalist right to gain power, but now it's the neo-cons who are doing all the political shenanigans, while the 'moderate' Republicans who want to distance themselves from this group that they gave so much power too, are doing nothing politically to stop it.<<
Not true, Tom Tancredo (R - Colorado) and several others have been very outspoken about Delay and about the Terri Schiavo business. Tancredo may run for president in 08, so keep an eye on him.
>>The Day Of Silence, is a nationwide event that schools do. All those who participate, take a day of silence to protest violence against gays and lesbians in school. This concept was created BY students, for students and is about students. This is true activism in action, and it has now grown to a large enough event that Maya Keyes was the closing speaker at this years event. It's all about the students.<<
I feel only slightly less offended by the Day of Silence than I do by the National Day of Prayer. With the Day of Silence the cause is at least good, but I'd like ALL groups to keep their political gestures out of the schools.
>>Now, we have the Day of Truth. A counter protest. And Foxnews says this about it:
"The Day of Silence was an event conceived of by students themselves in response to a very real problem of bullying and harassment they saw on their campuses," Jennings said. "The Day of Truth is a publicity stunt cooked up by a conservative organization with a political agenda; it's an effort by adults to manipulate some kids." source<<
Oiks, fair and balanced coverage from Fox News - who'd have expected it?
>>It's just enough. No, it has gone way beyond enough. If your Republican Liberation Front, or whatever breakaway group you are with, that wants to return the Republican party for what you believe it truly represents doesnt' do something SOON, then many of us will have no choice but to condemn and label the entire Republican party as a theocratic nightmare undermining democracy, because that's what your party is doing and nobody in your party is trying to stop it. The ability to separate theocracy from the Republican party isn't going to be easy, if the Republican party doesn't take more active steps in that direction FIRST.<<
I think you're overstating your case here, but there is a very real problem - I just don't think it's gone quite as far as you do.
>>Throwing Frist and DeLay on the proverbial bonfire is the LEAST your party can do to make amends for all the disasters the party has done in the last 4+ years.<<
I think Delay is probably toast. He's lost too much support both in the party and among voters in his home district. The Schiavo thing is what killed him though, not the various ethics complaints.
Dave
20 - Gotham Image
We think you are missing the point- The National Day of Prayer is not save souls or win converts to anything, since Dobson and Co. are smart enough to know that there are better ways. Rather , it is designed to draw opposition, so they can ambush critics.
21 - Dave Nalle
>>I agree, Jon. Although this post comes from Dave and not the Republican party. See the difference? With all due respect to Dave, one man trying to save his ideology from being dragged down with a sinking ship, he finds it got aligned with, is not the same as the Republican party making amends for all the zoo animals they let out of the cages.<<
Well, I'm not entirely alone, Steve. There is the Christie Todd Whitman PAC and the Republican Liberty PAC and people like Schwarzenegger, Giuliani and McCain who are pretty damned prominent and definitely not on the god-train. If the party splits I really have to say that the quality leadership in the party will end up in the non-religious wing.
Dave
22 - Dave Nalle
>>And if I were Karl Rove, I'd send checks to people to post on the internet<<
Well, George Soros does it so it must be a good idea.
Dave
23 - RJ
Ya'll are nuts.
There are tens of millions of hard-core Christians in the US. And they VOTE.
The Dems have basically labelled them as nothing more than idiots, terrorists, and bigots. So, they aren't going to vote for the Dems...
The GOP, OTOH, throws them the occasional bone in order to keep their support in the next election.
We are NOT headed towards a "theocracy" anymore than we'd be headed towards a "communist utopia" if the Dems were in power.
Politics is politics. The Dems throw a few bones towards the lunatic Left in order to keep the loyal. And the GOP does the same thing with the Religious Right. That's about it.
24 - Dave Nalle
>>Yep, you should be afraid that these kids might actually be good examples and others might consider living by those examples as well.<<
A good example in school is set by studying hard, getting good grades, supporting your fellow students and not being distruptive. It's not set by falling to your knees, flailing about and chanting. That might be a good example at pentecostal bible camp, but it's disruptive and inappropriate in a school.
>>Flip that argument, a person says that something non-religious offends them, and the usual response is to say,"Well, don't look, or don't go there, or change the channel" as it applies.<<
If it's on the TV that kind of response is fine for religious and other potentially offensive programming. I can skip Skinemax and Trinity equally well. In school you can't change the channel when the offensive line of the football team want to pray in the huddle. Peer pressure dictates that you go along, and that's not a fair situation to put kids in.
>>The bottom line is, you are not required to believe anything. Dobson is not representative of Christianity anymore than the KKK is representative of conservatives.<<
An apt comparison.
Dave
25 - Margaret Romao Toigo
That midwest "Church every Sunday" base is about as fed up with the fanatics as secularists are.
Don't underestimate the free will of our faithful brothers and sisters as they are steeped in American principles, many of which are Christian principles. And they are the sort of Christians who actually read the Scriptures and try to understand and live by the teachings of Christ (Whom many modern conservatives would call a "liberal," if they truly understood the Scriptures).
Mainstream Christians -- and there are lots and lots of them -- are sick and tired of the politicization of their faith and they are feeling the backlash, some to the point where they have become apprehensive about acknowledging their faith to people outside of their own congregations (you didn't think that metaphorical closet was the exclusive retreat of homosexuals, atheists and cigarette smokers, did you?).
Just like an increasing number of traditional Republicans are getting worried about their growing reputation as a party of religious fanatics.
It is not the Christian Right (may God have mercy upon their poor lost and tormented souls) who have engaged in the practice of "power grabbing," but rather it is the opportunistic politicians who have taken advantage of the Christian Right.
The Christian Right is nothing to fear and they deserve our pity, not our contempt. These are people who are frightened and confused by the troubles and temptations of the modern world and they seek grace and deliverance. They have been seduced by polticians who promise them salvation through political power (which these politicans have seldom delivered) and, as a result, they have been turned away from God.