Why have they picked this moment to anger millions of Muslims in the name of "freedom of speech"?
As ever with the media, it's timing and volume that have to be considered.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The Muslim Cartoon "Controversy" - Comments Page 3
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Richard Brodie
Yasmine: now u may say that anti christian cartoons are being published without anyone calling for riots and blood well maybe you find them acceptable but we dont, we take our religion seriously
Clear implications:
1. Since Christians are not "calling for riots or blood", they must not take their religion seriously.
2. The fact that Muslims ARE calling for riots and blood means that they DO take their religion seriously.
Thanks for clarifying that so well for us.
77 - Muhammad Rahim
let me make it even clearer.
NOT "THE MUSLIMS".............but some muslims.
78 - imran
if u believe it will help u be a better person then taking ure religion seriously is all u can do surely!
I dont think christians dont take their religion seriously i think they are forced to ignore
Why ignore when debate is so much more fun!
79 - yasmine
richard,,, u absolutely missed my point what i meant to clarify is that religions should not be the material for jokes, u have the right 2 accept these jokes when it concerns ur religion and when they are published by christians and we as muslims have the right to refuse that... I also said that this calling for blood and riot is not acceptable and once again i say it was not all the Muslims. I chose to write here and not to walk down the streets calling for anybodys blood...
You couldve read that easily in my posting but u chose to twist the words trying to prove ur point
80 - Mike
There are more important issues in the world to deal with than some stupid cartoon directed towards muslims. Everyone is praying to the same God it's just too bad people are too stupid to realize it. Now I am not saying I condone the cartoon or the image it projects. But come on people wake up there are so many other problems in this world. This is just some trivial media garbage to take your minds off what is really going on.
81 - Justin Berry
The Stupid cartoons are the only things these people can protest. Its not like they can Blog about how bad their government is screwing them. Its legal to bash the west so if your angry with your situation you lash out at the only thing you can.
82 - Nancy
I think Mike (#80) hit the nail on the head: this is all a ploy by leaders to take people's minds off the REAL offenses against them, which the leaders themselves are committing! Bush does this all the time: bait & switch. When the people start getting mad at you, start drivelling on & on about terrorists & internal enemies who help them, etc. etc. ad nauseam. It's a classic political trick.
83 - Brook
Hey,
Anyone know where to view the cartoons? I want to see what all of the fuss is about.
84 - Wybe
I think they are just looking for an excuse for their holy war.
whats the big problem, so mohammed got drawn.
Like its normal to air innocent civilians being beheaded.
I think in comparison to that, this is nothing.
but thats how i think about it..
85 - Nancy
Brook, I just googled 'mohammad cartoons', I think it was a French website.
86 - Michael
The cartoon, which is a satire, nothing else, is available at www.jeremyinc.com. If you like it, buy the shirt. If you don't, forget it. That is freedom of expression. Deal with it. No dark conspiracies here except for the cynical leaders of politics and religion whipping up the benighted masses under their sway.
87 - yasmine
Wybe, we dont have any holy wars to call for.. I know you think we behead innocents everyday 'n think its cool but we DONT! It has been done i cant deny that but thats not what all of us do... The real problem is that media is only showing the bad side; the extremists and those who misunderstood their religion and where illuded thinkin that this is their way to heaven, but Islam is really not about that... also Arab nations are not as dark as u think.. yes they do have a long way to go but it's not the picture you see in ur media
88 - Allison
Where should I begin really?
To start the Jyllands Posten apologized for offending Muslims with the cartoons back in September. The reasons they ran them was because People where afraid to talk about Muslims or issues involving Muslims, they were self censoring. I honestly think the editor thought he could show that Muslims are a peaceful people able to protest in peaceful ways. I fully believe that myself. Like I believe some Muslim clerics were beaten by fellow MUSLIMS when they tried to stop people from burning a embassy.
And while the idea of boycott seems effective. I disagree, i think that only works when you are trying effect a change within a company the way to tell a newspaper is through editorial letters. (I work for the dreaded media.)
As for insulting people, in many ways people have become extremely rude to each and are apathetic to when others are genuinely hurt. Many westerners expect the insults to roll off one's back so to speak. And when we encounter others who aren't used to that sense of humour well bad things happen LIKE MISUNDERSTANDINGS.
And it's very easy to place the blame on something we don't understand and many Westerners don't understand Islam. I also think people fail to understand that are great divides in Islam itself, with many different factions, similar to the many branches of Christianity (I speak from the United States perspective.)
Yet Pat Robertson doesn't speak for all Christians, and neither should these few fundementalist Muslims speak for all of Islam.
Freedom of expression: My personal belief is that the press is voice of the people (It doesn't always act that way but I am idealistic.)I think all speech in bad taste, or offense has the right to be heard. Because then people can openly refute the speech in dialogue or forum.
I don't think the cartoons were printed to start a war initially I think they were initially printed to start a dialogue, but it was misunderstood on many ends. And now I do think some countries have grabbed this controversy to shift the focus away from other problems within the country. I find offensive, because whenever anyone uses a holy figure for their own ends, it reduces Muhammed, Jesus, Abraham and any other religious figure to nothing more than a red herring (a device to change the way of a debate, not an actual fish.) I consider that blasphemy.
This has become a very emotionally charged issue and I don't think it was intended to burn bridges. I really think it was meant to open a dialogue. (And unfortunately the best example I can think of is hazing, which doesn't exactly convey the meaning i want but if any of you would be so kind as too help me out here I would much appreciate it.)
89 - Chromatius
As is so often the case, the real information starts to emerge after the excitement's faded:
So, let’s look at the guy who started this whole cartoon escapade. He’s Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of the Danish newspaper. In all of the Lexis-Nexis database of stories from the American media on the Mohammed cartoons, there is absolutely no mention of the fact that Rose is a close confederate of arch-Islamophobe Daniel Pipes. Indeed, there is almost no context at all about Rose’s newspaper. On a brief mention in the Washington Post gave a hint at a fact desperately needed to understand the situation. The Post described the affair as “a calculated insult … by a right-wing newspaper in a country where bigotry toward the minority Muslim population is a major, if frequently unacknowledged, problem.”
How bad is Pipes? He wants the utter military obliteration of the Palestinians; indeed, from the Muslim world, his racism is about as blatant as that of the Holocaust denying Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Pipes’ frequent outbursts of racism -- designed to toss gasoline on the neo-cons’ lust for a wholesale conflict of cultures -- earned him a Bush nomination to the U.S. Institute of Peace, a congressionally funded think tank. Rose came to America to commune with Pipes in 2004, and it was after that meeting the cartoon gambit materialized. link.
90 - Richard Brodie
Sugg asks: How bad is Pipes?. So I ask: "How bad is Sugg?"
Rose gave a rather misanthropic rejoinder to AP when asked about whether he would have published the cartoons in light of the subsequent protests. Rose said: "I do not regret having commissioned those cartoons and I think asking me that question is like asking a rape victim if she regrets wearing a short skirt Friday night at the discotheque."
That, of course, makes the assumption that women are responsible for being raped. It’s just as fallacious as assuming the Muslim world should passively accept an intentional provocation, one that gratuitously attacked one of the religion’s strictest prohibitions.
So Islamophile Sugg thinks it is fallacious that Muslim's should not have acted non-passively.
Was the reaction overwrought? Absolutely.
See how he uses the mild characterization "overwrought" to describe Muslim's buring down embassies and issuing death threats.
Was it an intentional scheme to provoke Arab anger, and thereby engender Western disgust with the Muslim world? The involvement of Pipes and Rose argues that that is exactly what happened.
See how he uses the extreme, derogatory characertization "scheme" to characterize a Western journalist's attempt to bring out into the open the important issue of Free Speech vs. Islam's presumed right, unique among all the world's religions, not to have any of its "strictest prohibitions gratuititously attacked."
Gratuitiousness (meaning unnecessary or unwarranted) is in the eye of the beholder. What he is doing here is laying the groundwork for "hate speech" legislation that will make further encroachments on Freedom of Speech, by giving the Islamic religion special, exceptional status not accorded to any other religion, thereby caving in to the Muslim world's tactic of censorsip by intimidation.
91 - a wise man
it was a "scheme"!
Satan is always up to a "scheme" to disrupt peace and cause turmoil. Too bad my muslim brother fell for it. They played right into the trap and Satan sits back and laugh.
92 - David M. Brown
I think they are just looking for an excuse for their holy war. whats the big problem, so mohammed got drawn. Like its normal to air innocent civilians being beheaded. I think in comparison to that, this is nothing.
This is exactly the point.
We can't write about the cartoons as if there has never been anything said before in the West about Islam and its connection to radical Islamic terror that might offend Islamic foes of free expression, let alone Islamic advocates of beheading of innocents. The cartoons were a special provocation because they were chosen to be a special provocation. Denmark was targeted. The whole thing is a trial balloon, a means of determining to what extent fellow Muslims can be roused to intemperate and violent response on such flimsy grounds, and to what extent Europeans and Westerners will reel in terror and obsequious apology in response to all the saber-and-Koran rattling. There is indeed an issue of "timing" here, but it has nothing to do with the "timing" of one more criticism of Islamic rationalizations for murder. That has been ongoing.
Sure, not all persons in the West are critical of the murders and of the Islamic rationalizations for the murders. But some of us are. It's not especially timed, although I do think there are probably spikes in the criticism immediately after each new beheading or suicide-murder bombing.
93 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Richard,
Chromatius'characterizations of Daniel Pipes could not have happened to a more deserving fellow. It's about he got burned in the butt.
Pipes is a brilliant writer who has turned his craft to digusting ends. A member of the Council of Foreign Relations, he runs something called the Middle East Forun - or somthing with a similar name.
What Pipes normally does is to deflect the anger of "consevatives" and of Jews away from the Saudi monarchy and the Wahhabi cult as the root behind Al Qaeda, the Moslem Brotherhood, etc. So he uses terms like Islamo-fascist, etc. to hide the smelly family of ibn Saud which is the real culprit of much that goes one in the "hood".
When you condsider that the Council of Foreign Relations was founded to serve the interests of big business in the States, and when you consider that a lot of the wealth of the Saudi oil fields find its way into companies that fund the Council of Foreign Relations, you see why he does what he does. This is asn asttempt to branch the little Pipes empire elsewhere
Nice touch on picking this latest Pipes escapade, Chromatius.
94 - denny
timing? the real question of timing is not the newspapers at all. the Cartoons were printned in september and mid east clerics made aware of them by october. The real question of timing is why now the clerics in the mid east want to make a big deal about this now and not before? find the answer to that and and we will know the real deal about what this is about. more then likely has to do with elections or mid east clerics loosing power or money.
95 - Chromatius
Well done Ronald - such a clear exposition of the Republikud position, clearly if not cogently expressed. But honest.
Particularly impressed by the spelling, repeated posts and extensive use of capitals - I can just see you twitching at the keyboard, flecks of froth around your lips... so much like your dear leader actually.
At least stinkey's got a sense of humour.
96 - Chromatius
Richard, you can't have it both ways.
The writer avoids certain hyperbole - thus 'overwrought' and 'scheme' instead of 'enraged' and 'conspiracy'... 'scheme' is not an "extreme, derogatory characertization"; 'conspiracy' would be.
The (yes, hyperbolic, and no doubt aimed at liberal American sentiment - an ad feminam argument, you might say) rape metaphor is confused and confusing, and Sugg gets turned round trying to use it. So what, that's language. I don't think it undermines most of his points about Pipes.
"further encroachments on Freedom of Speech" - I'm in the UK; here we just got Bliar's latest whizbang thought crime legislation about validating/justifying/glorifying terrorism.
One thing that does amaze me about America and Israel, is that you'll often find a wider range of clear-eyed debate within Israel than America. (Although because it's partly based in a self-congratulatory realpolitik, it sometimes deteriorates into bloodthirsty rants).
Thus Ruvy's comments show a position based in pretty clear-eyed view on the pernicious US/Saudi - and Bush/Saud/bin Laden - relationships. And the money and oil at the base of much of this, and the undermining of American democracy. Certainly more so than most American interlocutors.
He and I would disagree about many of the central issues regarding Israel/Palestine - but at least we agree on the shape and layout of the battlefield.
97 - Charles
When will all of you overly religious zealots overcome your greed and fanaticism? Whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judism, Catholicism, Jehovahs or Protestants you are all the worlds biggest hypocrites and trouble makers. I have no problem with your individual religious beliefs and moral practices. You have every right to believe in whatever you like, but when your greed and self-centered beliefs do nothing but cause problems for everyone else, then I take issue.
Religion and the greed and fanaticism that seem to be part of it have been the root of every war and moral conflict since the beginning of time. When will ALL OF YOU finally grow up before this world of ours is devoured and destroyed by the hatred and conflicts that ALL OF YOU create?
Catholic priests molesting children ... Islamic mullahs sacrificing the lives of their future leaders as human bombs ... Jews constantly dredging up the holocaust in order to reap heavy influence and political pressure. This world is on its way to self destruction and EVERY ONE of you religious zealots will be to blame when it does.
I would simply love to see every one of you fanatical idiots kill each other off. Your methodic and moronic carnage would be great viewing from the moon. I have finally realized just how many self-serving, insane assholes there are in the world. George W. Bush, Osama Bin Laden, and Kim Jong-il to name a few.
98 - troll
* I have no problem with your individual religious beliefs and moral practices. You have every right to believe in whatever you like, but when your greed and self-centered beliefs do nothing but cause problems for everyone else, then I take issue.*
sounds good...sorta like: 'when you gota go you gotta go - but don't shit in the path'
troll
99 - Dave Nalle
Islamic mullahs sacrificing the lives of their future leaders as human bombs
Let me just clarify one thing here. The leadership elite of the muslim world may run the terrorist groups and the mosques, but the actual people who strap on the bombs are invariably recruited from the poor and uneducated classes in the most backwards countries of the region. I'd respect the terrorists more if they had the balls to blow themselves up instead of using duped and brainwashed and often drugged stooges from the lower classes to die for them.
Dave
100 - David Ben-Ariel
The controversy isn't a joke but is dead serious, reflecting the inevitable clash between professing Christianity and Islam. Europe's days of tolerance for such primitive people are about over.
Europe Swings Both Ways
101 - Anthony Grande
This controversy just goes to show you which religion is more tolerant and forgiving.
102 - farzi
Hi cheer up Jyllands Postan you have done a very cheap thing but have earned alot of publicity, money etc. And u know otherwise noone knew about even ur existence. Congratulations!!! so what if u have hurt many, money is everything and u have earned that. so cheer up. stick to that "freedom of Speech" phenomena BUT never ever dare to speak about "holocaust" remeber because this will not earn u cheap publicity and money instead of that u will be in jail. So be cheap , be bad manners , hurt others but within limits. Limits are that your freedom of speech stops when issues like holocaust are started. Anyways its a good way to earn alot of fame and money and at the same time hurt those whom u do not like. Be snobbish, be arrogant.
103 - Mark
I once had religion and gave it up to become an honest man again.(Twain) Isn't it sad what people will do to others in the name of religion.
If you want to know the heart and mind of God, look within your soul and do not listen to men who proclaim themselves his spokesmen. If calling for death and killing is the banner of your religion, get out while you still have a soul. I hear you muslims justify your death edicts by pointing out historic christian atrocities. Does that make you better? We have truth, but you won't find it in the bible or koran. Those were written by other self proclaimed prophets. Why do you believe they knew more than you do? It's all invented and believing it without question is pathetic.
104 - Chromatius
As none of this is made clear, the 'protests' are simply a way of taking the bait. They give the US and UK governments exactly the advantage they seek, helping divide the world into 'West' and 'Islamic,' keeping the War on Terror burning. If the Muslim world were better educated and better fed, the cameras would expose the hypocrisies of the war-makers instead: international courts would condemn them, and the rest of us could live without the interference of self-appointed Powers and their two-faced freedom. (link)
105 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chromatius says
at comment 96:
Thus Ruvy's comments show a position based in pretty clear-eyed view on the pernicious US/Saudi - and Bush/Saud/bin Laden - relationships. And the money and oil at the base of much of this, and the undermining of American democracy. Certainly more so than most American interlocutors.
He and I would disagree about many of the central issues regarding Israel/Palestine - but at least we agree on the shape and layout of the battlefield.
and at comment 104:
If the Muslim world were better educated and better fed, the cameras would expose the hypocrisies of the war-makers instead: international courts would condemn them, and the rest of us could live without the interference of self-appointed Powers and their two-faced freedom.
It appears that Chromatius and I have some points of view in common - particularly the way self appointed Powers manipulate our lives to our disadvantage.
As a matter of fact, while listening to Israel National Radio, waiting to give a PSA for the Root & Branch Assn presentation Thursday, I got to listen to an Israeli economist and journalism, Joel Bainerman, discussing why Arabs and Jews should not be fighting each other instead of the self appointed Powers in the world like the US and the EU.
The converssation ranged over how Americans and Europeans stir up a population to riot or whatever, in attempts to influence and contol the nations. Bainerman pointed out (as I have in the past) that the Israeli gov't could easily destroy the terrorist organizations that intend to destroy us. He restrained himself in his responses on radio.
The true enemies of this country - and of most of the world - are the oil and banking plutocracy of the States.
Just a small point. The Iranians are planning to sell their oil in euros instead of dollars. for the effect that will have on the United States (and the dollar linked economy here), google up Joel Bainerman.
It should be borne in mind that the Saudis and the rest of the world sell oil in dollars.
106 - farzi
Comment 103
Mark, what make u think that u r right and all others are wrong. I mean u may be right but every one have the same probability that his/her views are the most perfect one, I mean why people (especially people who think they r superior to others) want other people to think, act and speak in their own way. why everyone on this earth do not have the right to follow whatever he thinks right. Why all white people want other races to adopt their culture. Many people find it far more comfortable and better to adopt the other culture. your culture may be or may not be the answer to every day's problems, but still there are some people who want to follow the other path. why they are punished for it.
107 - Chromatius
Not a small point. Quite a few people have observed that the US timetable for war seems built around the March opening of the Iranian bourse, and the denomination official sales in Euros.(link link link)
Leaving aside the Palestinian issue for a moment and taking things on their own terms, I do believe there are great dangers for the Jewish State, and Jews worldwide, in the nature of the relationship with America, and with other non-governmental forces representing vested interest.
108 - Charles
Well, I hear now that Iran is extolling the teaching of suicide bombing in its schools. Hamas still wants to battle Israel and the religious right keeps using its influence to slowy degrade the constitution of the United States. I hope that I am not around when the real shit hits the fan. This world has been corrupted and ruined by the weathly aristocrats and the religious zealots bent on satifying their own selfish greed and fanaticism. The common man has become nothing more than a tool to be discarded by these "people."
What a waste of young lives ... teenage Muslims coerced into becoming suicide bombers by older, wiser and manipulative elders too cowardly to spend their worthless lives for their insane cause. Duping their very own people into "religious sacrifice" in the name of Mohammed. While I am at it, let's not overlook British aristocracy, ie., the "selling" of Diana Spencer into British royalty by her "loving" family and her eventual "accidental" death via the paparazzi.
What a pity that all of the fanatical, greedy and religious idiots of this world will most likely be the last to perish when they eventually succeed at destroying this planet and most of it's inhabitants.
By the way, Mark #103, your Twain quote hits the bullseye. Most religious people are true hypocrites and hide behind the shield of their religion. Fanaticism comes in many forms.
109 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chromatius,
Look over my piece of a little while ago Lo Norá, and you'll see just how much fun an attack on Iran could be for us.
Dr. Inbar did not talk about the missile threat from southern Lebanon, the missiles under control of Hizb-allah - an Iranian ally. In a previous comment to this one #108, it was noted that the Shia Moslems are taking a very new position for them. They are supporting suicide bombing. Up until now they have not supported suicide bombing as "kosher" according to their view of Sharia.
...I do believe there are great dangers for the Jewish State, and Jews worldwide, in the nature of the relationship with America, and with other non-governmental forces representing vested interest.
I would appreciate it if you would expand on what you see to be the dangers to the Jewish State and to Jews in exile. I'm curious to see if we track.
110 - Mark
Comment 106
You are assuming I represent the white culture. My family is rather large and has blood that is Africa American, Polynesian (Tongan), American Indian (Snohomish), and European (German). We embrace diversity of ethnicity, culture, and religion. We can all laugh at ouselves and not take our beliefs too seriously. If you want to offend is through a cartoon or something else, it will not cause us to want to kill you. We do not support war unless directly threatened and do not claim to understand everyone's motivations in waging the war in the middle east.
The whole situation breaks my heart. However, I know that hate is wrong nomatter what the offense. Please, correct me if I am wrong in perceiving Islam to be full of hate. Are we not supposed to love our enemies.
111 - lumpy
You know, I just noticed the subhead which is basically to the effect of wondering why "they" picked this time to offend muslims with these cartoons.
Well guess what. They didn't. These cartoons were published SIX long months ago and were ignored by everyone including muslims at that time. the truth is that muslim agitators in europe were looking for an excuse to stir up trouble and dredged up this old and bogus issue as a pretext for rioting. just one more bogus controversy.
religion of peace my ass.
112 - Bliffle
"These cartoons were published SIX long months ago and were ignored by everyone including muslims at that time."
Not only that, but the muslim agitator in Denmark included fake cartoons (like showing a pigs head on mohamed) when he sent them to the ME. He admitted this with a crooked smirk when interviewed on "60 minutes". He thinks it's just fine that 29 people have died over this.
113 - Dave Nalle
Wow, hadn't heard about the pigheaded Mohammed scam. I bet plenty of middle eastern papers reprinted that one even if they knew it was a fake too.
Dave
114 - blimey
# 97 makes comments about "religion" as the force that has done the most killing. However, does this person realize that Hitler was not religious, nor Stalin, nor Lenin, nor Pol Pot, not Mao Ts Tung, nor leaders of North Korea? They were/are patently not religious. These wars were caused for political agendas and greed, by hypocrites for power and control. I am not sure what recent "religious" wars have killed so many people? Even the crusades killed way less than even one of these wars.
Other power hungry fakes hide behind the face of a religion to promote their own personal agendas, like Osama. Even the Muslim clerics and Imams are fake believers since their main concern is a loss of power and control if and when Muslim believers ever learn to think for themselves.
The implication it is forbidden for Muslims to make images of their prophet. Good for you. However, Muslim religious rules do not apply to other people/countries who do not practice your religion. Nor can those who are not Muslims "violate" Muslim tenets, only Muslims can "violate" Muslim tenets. Question: did Mohammed say in the Koran that his image could not be displayed, or did the Muslims just make this one up? If so, why? and when?
Perhaps if Muslims should actually give the respect to other religions that # 32 and 33 claim they give to other religion's prophets etc, and claim for themselves (actually practicing respect for Jews, Christians, Budhists, and others), they might be more deserving of respect themselves.
It is a fact that Muslims routinely confiscate Bibles and other religious material from people entering their countries who are not Muslims but practise a different religion. They touch these books without gloves, without respect, taking them from their owners, destroying them, they persecute people in their communities who wish to become members of a religion other than Muslim, and refuse to allow other religious beliefs to be presented. Muslims may claim a billion believers, but they fail to point out that they force people to believe in their religion whether they wish to or not. And of course, on pain of death if they don't.
Does anyone else recall that Muslims have gone into other countries (Europe, Indonesia, India, etc.)and are allowed to practise their religion, yet persecute others for practising their religions in those countries? Example: the rise of anti-Jewish activities in France? the Hindu/Muslim conflicts? the anti-Christian/anti-any other religion threats in Indonesia post tsunami of last year? Dont' the blowing up of Budha images thousands of years old in Afghanistan show an exteme hatred and intolerance, not to mention lack of respect?
As a point of fact, the Muslim religion is not indiginous to anywhere except the Medina/Mecca area, where it started, by the way, #71, through force and violence on Mohammed's part. It spread through the Mideast, Asia Minor, Mediterranean, and Europe through bloody conquest and force, much the same way that some are behaving and speaking like today. Some Muslims seem to think that bloody wars began with the Crusades, but the Crusades began as a response to (after) the bloody Muslim crusades that began in the 7th century. The media has been pandering to this twist on history, a lie, for some time now, apparently in an effort to appease the violent Muslim element and avoid being murdered, kidnapped, beheaded, aresenicked, burned, mobbed, ranted against, fatwahed, and any other typical, intimidating technique of terror. But really, shouldn't the rest of us be more honest, as well as Muslims, about their real history? But then, the president of Iran claims there was no holocaust as he calls for the annihilation of Israel...
As to the cartoons issue, more should be printed, not less. Several good ideas, and some humorous too, were expressed by some of these cartoons. Other works critical of any hypocrisy in the Muslim religion should be printed, just as they are for every other religion. (Afterall, Mohammed was just a man according to the religion.) Exposure, satirization, and criticism keeps religions and politicians honest.
Someone mentioned the Catholic priest pedophiles. Why weren't the Muslim cleric/Imam pedophiles mentioned? And please don't tell me there aren't any...of course there are. Nor are pedophiles confined just to religious organizations either. The same outrage applies to all.
#17 through 20, I enjoyed the fun reparte.
115 - Chromatius
#109 Ruvy, that one requires some thought to outline in detail, since it's more a sense of possibilities than a well thought-out argument - but what I said about military elites definitely applies. As you know, I've described elsewhere on Blogcritics the dangers I feel inherent in the very alliance with the US Christian right, many of whom subscribe to very traditional 'anti-semitic' views.
And it's always easier to live with a big bad boy when he seems to be working in your favour. Doesn't mean he always will.
What to make of the privatisation of global politics - the NGO-isation of the world - I'm far from settling that in my mind.
For example is Soros working for 'left' or 'right' type ideals, or is the question completely irrelevent? I'm certainly concerned about his involvement in the 'colour revolutions', which also seems to involve a close alliance with US secret services. Yet at other times he seems to work against such interests.
(I'd suspect that currently you'd applaud those efforts in Lebanon and Syria. To me it looks like throwing Lebanon back into the worst days of the 1980s, bringing back the same old faces.)
I'm also old enough to remember the Israel of kibbutzim, Labour and socialism; seems like another world...
116 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chromatius,
...it's always easier to live with a big bad boy when he seems to be working in your favour. Doesn't mean he always will.
The question for Israelis has been which big bad boy to live with. Ben Gurion chose France in the 1950's. In 1967, that bad boy turned on us. But we were able to get the one significant lasting benefit from them by stealing enough enriched uranium to set up bombs and the like.
Ooops!! I wasn't supposed to say that, was I? Well, it'll be just our little secret. (Jeremy Irons - the "Lion King" 1995)
In 1973, Golda chose America - and that bad boy has not only turned on us but bought a lot of our leaders out, and brought this nation to a great deal of grief.
With respect to the Christian right, one has to be very careful. Let's say that they are a mixed bag of nuts, not one kind only, and one has to be very careful about which peanut, cashew or walnut could break your teeth or be poisonous. There are some real friends and some real enemies. And some folks who for now are friends, and who will turn into enemies.
It would be helpful for you to read this article at Blog Critics to get an idea of what my views are on Israeli politics. Both the article and the comments. Go to the links provided there.
I do not look forward to another civil war in Lebanon. I haven't forgotten the kids with the Kalashnikovs riding around in jeeps destroying Beirut like a boy with a temper tantrum wrecking an erector set.
The privatization of government can only portend evil for us because our own leaders are unable to see us Jews as "class A." In their eyes, we are always "class B" yids attempting to imitate the "class A" non-Jews elsewhere.
This relates to why the US has been so easily able to buy our our leaders. It isn't all money and intimidation, though that certainly helps. Take a look a the recent decision by the Magen David Adom to abandon its Shield of David to gain admittance to the International Red Cross.
We need the International Red Cross? We don't need them at all. If the ICRC burned in hell it wouldn't cause even the slightest ripple in a cup of of tea here. It's all a matter of "class B" Jews getting into the "class A" goyisher country club because they do not have enough self respect and spine to tell the "class A" non-Jews to go to hell.
The failure of the kibbutzim and of socialism here is related to all this as well.
I am a leftist - a true leftist. I am a syndicalist socialist. This country was founded upon its principles and synicalist socialism was a success here. But the practitioners were so busy imitating Stalin or social democrats in Europe that they could not see that their own native ingenuity had created a superior system of justly distributing wealth. Again "class B" yids attempting to imitate the "class A" gentiles elsewhere, and wreacking what they had in the process. Perhaps if they had actually believed in G-d when they were pounding out their message of social justice from the Book of Amos....
I'm old enough to have wanted to be a kibbutznik and to have tried to get into one. But evidently, the Almighty meant me for a different task. The majority of the kibbutzim collapsed on their own self-congratulory mentality. When Begin cut off the bank loans, they started, most of them, into a tailspin from which they'll never recover.
117 - Chromatius
#116 Thanks for the pointer to tikkun olam and Jubilee; checking it out.
As for imitating Stalin or European social democrats: I'm both aware of the more general 'anxiety of influence', a constant colonial experience (I'm from New Zealand), and the way mid-century leftists blinded themselves and distorted their philosophies because of the atttraction of pointing to a successful existing model, usually Stalin's Russia - often even after Kruschev and 'de-Stalinisation'.
More, here or elsewhere, after I read your links and pointers...
118 - farifarzi
Mark comment 110
Its good to know that ur family represent multicultures. But believe me there is a culture to whih I belong and it represents Islam and it is not violent at all. It makes me laugh sometime when according to you people(most people on this site) I imagine my grandma with a bomb on her head. Or my very sweet father who was only happy when he has plenty of guests at his house and he loves to entertain them with lots of deliciuos dishes And remeber my father migrated from India in 947 so he has many non muslim friends most of them were Hindus and he loved them and missed them all his life (he is no more). He having a bomb on his head and killing people??? never I can never ever imagine that. It really hurts me when I read such comments. I have plenty of relatives around me(u know that muslims love to have close family ties even with the distant relatives) and they can be jealous, they can be irritating sometimes, they can be even difficult, but violent or killer???? no way. In fact I used to think that western culture is a very civilised one as it provides the privacy and freedom to everyone, but now I am forced to think otherwise. I think they deliberately hurt others and when some one protest they call them violent. They do not even say sorry because they think they are superior.
119 - farzzi
Mark, Please do not think that Islam is full of hate. In fat no religion is full of hate and Islam also forbids hating others The thing is that why these caricatures have hurt us so much is because Muhammed(PBUH) is the man who said that no black is better than white and no white is better than black, No arab is superior to non arab and non arabs are not superior one is only better then the other if he has done good things in his life. He was the most kind person who loved animals, who loved nature and who loved human beings. In his life when people threw stones on him and abused him he only prayed for them. its only that Muslims have a great love for Him in their hearts and cannot bear it when His personality is ridiculed or abused. And also please tell me if I abuse u and if I say that ur whole nation is violent would not it irritate u????
120 - Mark
farzzi
I am glad that there is a non-violent side to Islam. Somehow that is getting lost in all of our anger and posturing. I want to see evidence that this peaceful side has some power and ability to control or extinguish the violent fanatics. As I see it, the middle east has been volatile and somewhat chaotic historically. If this chaos gains momentum and power without internal controls, the future looks bleak. Where are the imams who call for tollerance and peace? I admit that my adopted country (the U.S.A.) sometimes tends to "shoot from the hip". The politicians don't always represent the country very well. But in comparison to other countries, I see a nobleness of character and understanding in many who try to lead us. Imaging the weight of responsibilty on the shoulders of one man (the president) who is judged by everyone in the world and expected to deal with everything according to the values of every culture. If he was the leader of a small country with little power and few expectations, he could act like a "brat" as do many of those leaders.
I hope I can establish a dialog with an individual who may teach me something that I don't know about the middle east culture. It amazes me how well individuals can relate, yet cultures clash. I have a Palestinian neighbor who
is great . We relate very well socially. He is not religious and seems to be very understanding politically. Is all this communication on this site a way to blow off some emotional steam or is there some positive solutions that we can come up with?
121 - Chromatius
#111 My point was mainly about the proliferation of the cartoons through other European media outlets. But Flemming Rose's association with Daniel Pipes (#89) raises new questions.
#120 Your non-religious Palestinian neighbour may have a few insights into why the Palestinians are now predominantly led by religious parties, whereas a decade or so ago, they were nationalist groups.
This is no accident, but the product of US (and Israeli) policy.
#117 "the tyranny of distance" was another phrase used to describe the colonial experience. Basically the idea is that your culture, cities and lives are inferior imitations of the colonial power's originals - e.g. the great cities, London, Paris, Rome.
And in general, do the 'freedom of speech' brigade have any comment on the David Irving conviction in Austria for holocaust denial (an offence, I believe, committed 19 years ago).
122 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chromatius,
Your wrote, "the Palestinians are now predominantly led by religious parties, whereas a decade or so ago, they were nationalist groups.
This is no accident, but the product of US (and Israeli) policy.
I agree with most of what you say, but do you care to elucidate? Particularly the part about this being American policy? I want to see if we track in our reasoning.
123 - Dave Nalle
And in general, do the 'freedom of speech' brigade have any comment on the David Irving conviction in Austria for holocaust denial (an offence, I believe, committed 19 years ago).
What is there to say about it? The Austrian law, like all hate speech laws, is ridiculous. People should be judged by their actions and the harm they do others, not by their thoughts or words. The proper response to holocaust denial is social not legal. It should be ridicule and stygmatization, not imprisonment.
Dave
124 - Richard Brodie
Dave you're being much too commonsensical. The 'free speech limitation' brigade, whose charge is led by the likes of Chromatius, want to go in the opposite direction. Starting from the assumption that EVERYONE must surely be in favor of censoring holocaust denial, they would extrapolate from there to advocate imposing freedom of speech limitations that will enshrine the tenets of Islam into Western law - all this brought to you by the same self-culture haters who are so adamant about separation of church and state when it comes to Christianity!
125 - Chromatius
#124 "whose charge is led by the likes of Chromatius" - hey, not me; I just asked a couple of questions.