Have you ever heard of "La Reconquista"? Odds are, if you aren't a raging bigot or a member of the Minutemen Project, you probably haven't heard of it at all. But perhaps its time to learn about it. After all, notions of "La Reconquista" are being used to fuel racism and promote vigilantism in America.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Chris King
Steve said:
"I actually believe in defending one's home" - What with a hug?!!
And oh yeah, to hell with your neighbor - he's on his own! right?
Did you notice how Steve got his dig in on the Republican Party comment...he just can't help himself.
Hey Ramone and Anthony!... Steve's around illegals all day!! Illegals!!
Wow!! Real bonifide illegals!!! Gee, I wonder what that's like? HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH!! Maybe someday us guys will get lucky and be around some illegals and get the straight poop about those drug lords bringin' some shit to the border!!!
Whoah, hey someone call the Border Patrol and tell em'....Let those drugs across!! Steve says we shouldn't piss off the drug lords!! HAH! HAH! HAH!
Oh yeah Steve, the 90% homicides by illegal aliens in LA alone PROVE the likelhood of Minutemen causing more trouble than illegals!
And remember guys.....Steve LIVES the life....unlike us....OH NO, WE'VE NEVER BEEN AROUND ILLEGALS, right guys? HAH! HAH! HAH!
We just come to the border and piss on the fence post! HAH! HAH! HAH!
Anthony is absolutely correct about the fence...and Bush hiding from this hot button issue.
But wait, we should stop teasing Steve, guys....he's saddened by our get tough approach....after all these are people simply coming for a better life....right? Maybe, after Steves house gets ransacked a few times...they butcher his animals...dogs and cats included...and then his wife gets raped and beaten half to death....maybe he'll decide enoughs enough! ............yeah......he'll just remind them that he LIVES the life and is against illegal immigration then give em' TWO BIG hugs.
77 - Anthony Grande
Listen Steve, if you jump on a electrical fence it is suicide, not murder.
And San Fransisco doesn't count
Hollywood or Palm Springs either for that matter.
78 - Ramone Esteka
Who is this lunatic?! This guy can't be outta high school - what a frickin' idiot!
Anthony, Steve's problem is he's not from this frickin' planet!!
And Steve, my name is Ramone...not Ramona...can't you get anything right?
79 - Anthony Grande
Romone Esteka??? Is that Russian???
80 - Ramone Esteka
Maybe way back.....wierd huh?...no I'm Mexican.
81 - Steve S
Steve said: "I actually believe in defending one's home" - What with a hug?!!
How do you conclude that?
And oh yeah, to hell with your neighbor - he's on his own! right?
How do you conclude that?
Did you notice how Steve got his dig in on the Republican Party comment
It was pretty cool, wasn't it? It's a factual statement too. Whoo-hoo.
Hey Ramone and Anthony!... Steve's around illegals all day!! Illegals!!
No, immigrants. Many are illegals, many aren't.
Whoah, hey someone call the Border Patrol and tell em'....Let those drugs across!! Steve says we shouldn't piss off the drug lords!! HAH! HAH! HAH!
You are insane. When somebody witnesses a crime, what are they supposed to do, call the law or play policeman? I would say 'you figure it out', but I think in this case, that's asking too much.
Oh yeah Steve, the 90% homicides by illegal aliens in LA alone PROVE the likelhood of Minutemen causing more trouble than illegals!
Do you have a source for your claim?
But wait, we should stop teasing Steve, guys....he's saddened by our get tough approach
so now murder is referred to as 'get tough'. okay.
Maybe, after Steves house gets ransacked a few times...they butcher his animals...dogs and cats included...and then his wife gets raped and beaten half to death....maybe he'll decide enoughs enough!
Resources please? Can you show me proof that all these illegals you portray as criminals are ransacking homes across America like you claim? That shit doesn't happen out here. I guess the illegals cross the border, live in California, commute to Georgia to commit their crimes and then commute back here to work in the fields or something.
And San Fransisco doesn't count,Hollywood or Palm Springs either for that matter.
I don't live in any of those places. I live in a small California town that more resembles a Mexican town than an American one.
Anthony, Steve's problem is he's not from this frickin' planet!!
You all are so freakin hostile it is pathetic. I am for tighter borders and I am for a stronger Border Patrol. I am against civilians having to take things into their own hands. And because of that, you all are attacking me. What a hostile, arrogant, xenophobic, intolerant world you want, where if people don't get all excited because you want to be violent, then you turn on them.
82 - Anthony Grande
"Hey Ramone and Anthony!... Steve's around illegals all day!! Illegals!!
Wow!! Real bonifide illegals!!! Gee, I wonder what that's like?"
That is what he claims, but I don't believe him.
"When somebody witnesses a crime, what are they supposed to do, call the law or play policeman?" by Steve
Call the law is what you would think, but what do you do when the law and president don't do anything about it???
"I am for tighter borders and I am for a stronger Border Patrol."
So am I, but we don't have stronger borders and border patrol. So instead of watching our state go to hell we are doing something about that is waking everyone up.
"I don't live in any of those places. I live in a small California town that more resembles a Mexican town than an American one."
So do I (evnthogh I don't believe you) And that is why I am all for taking my counrty back.
Exactly what is the name of your town???
83 - MediaWatch
My office would like to offer some data:
Number of murders suspects in Nuevo Alredo by
a) illegal aliens………… 110
b) Minutemen....................0
Pima County home invasions committed by
a) illegal aliens.....……..136
b) Minutemen.................0
number of MS = 13 gang members nationally:
a) illegal aliens...........47,000
b) Minutemen.....................0
Rape convictions in Arizona alone
a) illegal aliens............832
b) Minutemen..................0
Number of auto thefts in Az. committed by:
a) illegal aliens............36,302
b) Minutemen......................0
Dept Homland Security list of violent child predators
a) illegal aliens............6085
b) Minutemen.................0
number of day laborers convicted of felonies in Arizona
a) illegal aliens………… .8011
b) Minutemen……………….0
Number of Border Patrolmen assaulted since Nov. 1, 2005 by:
a) illegal aliens……………196
b) Minutemen………………0
We don't debate issues, we simply provide accurate data from verifiable sources.
MediaWatch Group
84 - Chris King
Oh Steve your slipping....you said
"When somebody witnesses a crime, what are they supposed to do, call the law or play policeman?"
Now Steve I want you to focus like a laser beam, the Minutemen were only allowed to call the law. THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY POLICEMAN. Why can't you get that through your head. IF THEY HAD PULLED THEIR GUN AND DETAINED AN ILLEGAL - THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED!!! WHAT'S SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?? NAME ME ONE MINUTEMAN ARRESTED FOR ILLEGAL DETENTION!! COME ON!!
Then Steve said: "so now murder is referred to as 'get tough'. okay.
HAH! HAH! HAH! Name me one Minuteman who committed murder!!! What a joke!
Steve lives such a little life in his small town that he thinks his little life is a reflection of the whole immigration problem. He even admits that!! "they don't do that here"
HAH HAH HAH!!
85 - Steve S
very funny. That data is irrelevant to the discussion, I would think. Nobody has ever charged that the Minutemen were doing these crimes, and EVERYBODY here has acknowledged that illegal immigration is a problem and that criminal element comes over that way.
number of day laborers convicted of felonies in Arizona
but, yes, it's always a good laugh to skew data this way, especially when nobody would contest it, and nobody asked for it. And for the record, we can look at categories like this to see how ridiculous they are.
Number of MinuteMen founders who are convicted felons:
Illegal aliens: 0
MinuteMen : 1
86 - Steve S
Now Steve I want you to focus like a laser beam,
okay....focusing....focusing...
the Minutemen were only allowed to call the law. THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY POLICEMAN.
okay...got it...still focusing....
Why can't you get that through your head.
Because that's not how I hear it playing out. That's what they are supposed to do, that's what the media is portraying them as doing. People from the border tell me different.
87 - Anthony Grande
"Number of MinuteMen founders who are convicted felons:
Illegal aliens: 0
MinuteMen : 1"
That statistic doesn't favor you, it makes you look like an idiot.
Minutemen and illegals who are convicted felons:
Illegal aliens:A few hundren thousand
Minute Men: 1
How do you feel?
If you announce defeat now none of us will think any less of you. But you are already pretty low.
LOSER!!!
88 - Steve S
How do you feel?
I feel like the conversation has degenerated into name calling and misrepresentation. Chris King latched onto me to take out his anti-liberal feelings on. He has laid on me, the entire stereotype of what the RIght defines the Left as.
He has accused me of wanting open borders, of not wanting to protect my family of all sorts of shit that is entirely out of the air and not related to the discussion at all.
Then others like yourself, jumped in, having clearly not read from the beginning and so have this preconceived notion based on god knows what.
Anthony, a few things:
1) I never denied that immigration was a problem, in fact I have had to repeatedly say so, no less than 1 dozen times to Chris, and I still get accused of not seeing a problem.
2) I stated repeatedly that I want tighter borders
3) I stated repeatedly, that the Republican controlled government needs to do more to secure our borders
Now, what beef, exactly Anthony, do YOU have with me? Or are you just jumping on a 'hit-a-liberal-when-you-can' bandwagon like these other supremists?
89 - Anthony Grande
"Now, what beef, exactly Anthony, do YOU have with me? Or are you just jumping on a 'hit-a-liberal-when-you-can' bandwagon like these other supremists?"
What beef do I got with you??? You say your all for tighter borders and protecting your family, but when we do something to do that you condemn it.
So basically you think there is a problem but we shouldn't solve it.
90 - Steve S
my overall premise was about a movement in this country, of which the MinuteMen was only a part. So it is about a much bigger issue than immigration, but it is the MinuteMen part that draws the most controversy, none of the other is disputed.
So basically you think there is a problem but we shouldn't solve it.
I do think there is a problem, but I don't think this will solve it. So Anthony, you say that the MinuteMen is your attempt to solve illegal immigration. How many illegals came over today? How many yesterday? The news is reporting that the MinuteMen are on the border in April. What is different today than a year ago today? Exactly what?
My point, in regards to the Minutemen, is that civilans playing vigilante is a dangerous thing. And it's dangerous FOR NOTHING.
91 - Anthony Grande
The Minutemen are stoping many illegals, but the bigger objective is to wake up Bush and everyone else.
Now don't say the MinuteMan project isn't working. The MinuteMen woke up America to our problem. People are now realizing that we have a major problem and doing stuff about it: Arizona and New Mexico have declared a State of Emergency and Shwartzeneiger is getting close to declaring it for California.
The MinuteMen have also let Mexico know that we have had enough of this shit. Mexico is currently running ads against illegal Immigration.
Things are happening Steve, Progress is a slow process.
If you want a quick process then you should agree with me that we need a 50 foot Electrical shock wall.
92 - ss
Steve:
Going back to your original post, you refer to the influx of Irish immigrants in (and before) the 1860's
There was a backlash against Irish immigration. A bunch of anti-papists formed a secret society they called the 'know-nothings', because if they were asked if they were a member they were supposed to respond
'I know nothing'
This group cashed on on paranoia over job loss, cultural change, and yes, they even went so far as to circulate rumors that Irish immigrants wanted to secede and form a papist nation in states where immigrant populations were growing the quickest.
I'm fairly sure the know-nothings responded to reasonable claims that there behavoir was idiotic and paranoid by claiming reasonable people were a bunch of pussies waiting to hug their wives rapists.
In other company, they probably touted the 'humanitarian' nature of their work.
They lasted about eight years, before being consigned to the dust bin of history.
I give the Minute Men less than that.
93 - Chris King
ss,
Nice job re: Know nothings
Anthony, nice job also...couldn't have said it better.
Now, ss, from the start of this debate, I have argued only one point - moral clarity. I have not attacked Steve's opinions, only his irresponsible habit of spinning news to support his personal and political agenda.
Last April my assignment was to monitor and cover the News Media, The ACLU and The Minutemen Project down on the border.
A documentary crew followed me around and I interviewed with MPR, the AP, CNN and several local and state news agencies.
I witnessed and documented first hand the ACLU and news group's attempts to create explosive and controversial news where there was none. KPHO, who Steve refers to in his article, ran footage of some para-military clad commandos on ATVs with assault weapons screaming around looking for border crossers and passed them off as Minutemen! After I called them on it, they pulled the mis-leading and fraudulent video.
In May, The Tucson Citizen gave me a quarter page where I called for them (the paper) to offer a public apology to the Minutemen for so under-handedly portraying them as Steve has attempted to do here.
No Minutemen pulled their guns, chased down or hunted, illegally detained, pistol whipped, murdered any border crossers. No Minutemen displayed vigilantism (they would have been arrested) and NONE of the ACLU's lawyers have been able to file charges against this group.
Why? Because they were peaceful and law abiding. They did nothing except call Border Patrol when they spotted suspicious activity. Now, here's what Steve said about them:
People have been killed by these racist extremists who are hell-bent on turning this into an Aryan Christian Nation. I blogged about the Aryan connection to the Minutemen group about a year ago, including the most recent update in the comment section about an alleged occurrence of violence at the border.
I challenged Steve regarding the authenticity of his statements and he went off in several different directions bringing in his political views etc..etc.. He contradicts himself repeatedly and plays the poor victim role because no one buys his load of crap.
Steve wants people to perceive him as caring and gentle, but, when I offered a donation to a charity of his choice if he'd back up his mouth...he simply chose not to address it. He couldn't care less about helping a charity...it wasn't worth his time...no he's busy with his political agenda.
Steve's most glaring character flaw is his habit of "transference".
He whines about the debate being reduced to name calling: poor Steve...Steve needs to listen to himself:
Minutemen - vigilantes
Chris Simcox - felon, militia organizer
Lou Dobbs - neo-con
Anthony Grande and his wall? - murderer
Chris King and anyone who disagrees with Steve - supremists
border crossers - victims of US drug policy.
Moral Clarity, that's all I have challenged him on...oh yeah, mention a few of the crimes illegals are guilty of....and your a "demonizer"...just more of that name calling Steve is so upset with. Come on ss, you may not agree with the Minutemen, but don't stoop as low as Steve. I know your smarter than that.
94 - Chris King
Just for the record:
Chris Simcox was out with maps laying out locations for his Minutemen to set up to watch for border crossers. He had met with Border Patrol and they showed him where the sensors were. As he walked along the "unmarked" line bordering the mountains, he ran into a female Border Patrolman who mistook him for Glenn Spencer. Glen had a reputation for being one of those crazy vigilantes taking the law into his own hands on a regular basis. The Patrolwoman determined that Glen,(actually Chris) had stepped into National Park land and was therefore guilty of a crime. 15 paces into unmarked National Forest! She called in "I've got Glen Spencer on National Forest land with a sidearm".
Chris plead no-contest and received either 2 or 5 year probation.
But his critics LOVE to spout off that he's got a weapons conviction. Big deal, eh?
95 - Steve S
I challenged Steve regarding the authenticity of his statements and he went off in several different directions
you challenged the authenticity of Bush calling the MinuteMen vigilantes. You did not challenge the statement of illegals being killed. That was my impression.
I linked to a story of illegals being killed. That story was about illegals being targeted with scopes and that occurs on the border. There is no connection that it was the Minutemen doing it. However it is being done by supremists who want to play patriot. It's done by people on the border, and the Minutemen are on the border. It doesn't mean it's the same, but it doesn't rule it out either.
96 - Anthony Grande
Steve, you need to count your losses and leave this site. YOu have lost all credibility.
Can't you see the majority is against you and your San Fransisco ways.
The MinuteMan is the best thing that has happened to us for a long time out here in the Southwest and YOU want to take that away.
Why must you take that away??? Lets just say the MinuteMan Project isn't working (which isn't true), they aren't hurting no one or breaking any laws. So why would they have to stop??? How are they hurting you???
97 - Steve S
Can't you see the majority is against you and your San Fransisco ways.
so wanting the government to step upto the plate so that civilians don't have to do law enforcement is a San Francisco way? Okay, if I ever move there, I guess I'm one step ahead.
The MinuteMan is the best thing that has happened to us for a long time out here in the Southwest and YOU want to take that away.
I want to take the need for the MinuteMen away, as do you and everybody else.
Why must you take that away???
because I think a country were citizens don't have to protect against illegal immigration themselves is a good thing.
98 - Ramone Esteka
Just be a little more responsible on what you write, jerk. Linking Minutemen to the Aryan Race is bull*** partner! And Simcox HAS put water in suffering border crossers mouthes ....much more than you've ever done "mr.oh so concerned"
Hey Anthony, whatever lil' nothing town this kook Steve lives in ....whattya wanna bet he get's off on tellin' all the little people that .....he's a ...writer.....ooooooooh....Steve feels soooo important! In a big town with big town people....he'd be livin' on the streets in two months.
99 - Anthony Grande
You know Steve we are not making fun of you, we are telling the truth.
Nice shot Romone, but Steve loves his precious little town full of illegals. He would hate a big city, there he would be equal or lower to everyone else.
100 - Steve S
much more than you've ever done
I've blogged here before about my work at hospices around here, so you don't know what I've done. I've sat by the side of more than a few terminally ill patients who are in a foreign land, and who have nobody.
tellin' all the little people that .....he's a ...writer
are you all under the impression I'm a writer or a reporter and that you are correcting media? Oh, no, I'm a blogger. I write my own personal experiences/perspective and if I include links then it's to sources like CNN, Washington Post, Southern Poverty Law Center, Indymedia, etc.
They are the ones who provide the facts/information. This is all my opinion based on the facts gathered, my opinion has not been changed and I will continue to write my opinion as long as this country still has freedom of speech.
What, do you all think you scored one against the media? Nah.
Here's a link I found in just 5 minutes:
serious violence at the hands of MinuteMen dated last May. This type of shit's all over the web. It's not my writing. I offer my perspective on things with links like this to back it up.
101 - Anthony Grande
1) not a credible site
2) you didn't find it in "5 minutes". You looked long and hard for that site for a long time, because you would have showed it earlier if you were able to find it faster.
Steves Crediblity: ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOO
102 - Chris King
Oh my god!! I can't stop laughing!!!
This is such old news!
Anthony, you hit it on the head! Check out the author of this piece...
Ernesto Cienfuegos
La Voz de Aztlan
HAH! HAH! HAH!
Hey Steve, La Voz de Aztlan....NOW THERE'S A RELIABLE SOURCE!!!
Anthony, fortunately for Mr. Netkin the whole incident was caught on videotape. The "so called victims" actually were brushed by the rear view mirrors as Mr. Netkin attempted to get away from the violent protestors who, get this, had attacked his vehicle with soda cans, a brick and other various thrown objects. On the videotape it shows the "victims" all pressing down on the man's car then a couple walk over to the side and lay down and people start screaming at which point they called the police who immediately come over and arrest Netkin. After viewing the tape they immediately released Netkin (I believe in was within a couple of hours) and never filed any charges. Just another case of Steve's selective reading. Now Steve, why don't you challenge me on what I'm saying in a formal way and let's just see who's full of doo doo.
Sorry for laughing so much but this ole story was discredited the same day it came out. So typical Steve.
103 - Anthony Grande
That bit was left out of Steve's little site.
Steve: HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH...!!!
104 - MediaWatch
From our office files:
The motorist had attended Gilchrist's speech and was leaving when protesters began hitting his van with placards and other objects, said Garden Grove Police Lt. David Kivler. The driver, who was not identified but spoke to a KCAL-TV Channel 9 reporter, said he gunned his car engine to get away from the crowd. The man was arrested.
Authorities said the incident occurred when 100 listeners attempted to leave through the crowd of demonstrators. Kivler said protesters gathered around one of their cars.
"They surrounded it and started beating on it," Kivler said. Then, a second car tried to get through the crowd as well.
"As he was doing so he hit at least three people," Kivler said. All three were transported to a local hospital. None had major injuries, he said.
He said protesters began throwing filled soda cans at the assembled Garden Grove, Anaheim and CHP officers. At least eight people were arrested on suspicion of felony assault, while others were booked for disturbing the peace.
A witness, Eric Garcia, 22, of Anaheim said the evening turned ugly about 9 p.m. after the talk.
He said some protesters were in a driveway when someone in a car tried to leave and made contact with the group. "Then all hell broke loose," Garcia said. "People started throwing things, like rocks and bricks and stuff."
105 - Ramone Esteka
Hey Steve, sure glad you brought up that one. Sounds like your group kinda lost control of themselves. Let's see, 8 felony assaults, several disturbing the peace charges....but the one Minuteman was arrested and released - no charges. Steve, crawl back under your rock.
106 - Anthony Grande
BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, and BOOOOM
Is he still breathing?
107 - Chris King
Look Steve, you don't have to keep doing this. Your entitled to your opinion no matter if it's based on real events or not. But your really beginning to embarass yourself by trying to support your argument.
Before you go off half cocked on this new approach let me clue you in on some realities.
Minutemen can go around the country and have meetings and rallies and that would be it. A few supporters show up and they clap and rally and organize and go home feeling like their making a difference.
Do you suppose that hordes of police and law enforcement show up to protect these Minutemen and their supporters from themselves?
Uh...like....no. They are there because they know that the pro-illegal activists are going to show up and try to suppress the Minutemen's freedom of speech....with shouting, interference and violence. It happens at every event. Who get's violent and arrested? Your side. (this is easier to understand if I refer to your side and my side)
Now, the leaders of LULAC, MALDEF, LA RAZA, LA MEChA etc... do you think they have to travel around wearing bullet proof vests and with bodyguards? The answer is no. Simcox and Gilchrist do. Plenty of bodyguards. Why? Because they have received HUNDREDS....i repeat .. HUNDREDS OF DEATH THREATS.....law enforcement have followed up on many many that were easy to track down.
Steve, very simplistically, your side is very violent...ours is not. Get used to it. It's just a fact of life. The PAN supporters in Phoenix were spit upon, Cathy McKee and their tires were all flat when they returned to their cars. Steve you need to grow up a little and see things the way they are. Really.
108 - Steve S
LOL. Well, I said I found it in 5 minutes, and I did. I was looking for something else, unrelated, and stumbled across it. I just threw it out there. I saw the author's ethnicity. Why is he not credible and you are?
109 - Steve S
Media watch, when referencing your files in an attempt to prove something, you should at least link to a website.
You present yourself as an organization here, or a representative of one, but you have no link to even a homepage, let alone any source for your claims.
Not that I'm disputing them or the events in that case, I don't know that case and don't really care. You don't get it.
Aztlan disreputable on the web.
Media Watch and Chris King. Reputable but no verifiable way to prove it.
Nope. No prejudice goin on.
110 - Chris King
The author's ethnicity? More selective reading by Steve...I repeated the affiliation twice, Steve, not the writer's name.
Steve, why don't you tell everybody what La Voz de Aztlan means in english.
I rest my point.
Okay Steve, put your money where your mouth is...ya want to wager that my data is incorrect? Pick something...I challenge you. Let's get specific.
Let's make it easy for you....$100. for La Voz de Aztlan if I lose....$100 for the Minutemen if you lose.
Pick a point.
111 - Steve S
I'm guessing the voice of Aztlan whatever that is.
No Chris, gambling is a sin I don't do, and I don't have that kind of money anyway. The web doesn't disseminate information via threats and intimidation now does it?
Most people, when making a claim about something at least link to it, I did that, others here do that, others on other blogs and websites do that. If the two of you choose not too, but want to bluff, go ahead, I don't have the money to gamble.
Let the record show, Chris wants to make claims and intimidates to have it accepted as fact, rather than offer the information as most writers/debaters do.
112 - Chris King
Steve, your really making a fool of yourself. You need to re-consider Anthony's previous advice. Cut your losses and move on.
Earlier on this thread and in your article you referred to the Southern Poverty Law Center as one of your sources for truth.
okay Steve, this is gonna really hurt but, hey you brought it on yourself. You criticize us for not providing you with a URL. Fair enough.
I want you to go to www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=186 - 39k -
and see what "your" choice of sources has to say about La Voz de Aztlan, the source you just sent us to.
You've lost all credibility my friend.
113 - Chris King
Problem with that previous post number, but that URL is here
Chris King
114 - Steve S
Egads, I had no idea! Okay, scratch that one. I told you that link popped up on a search for something else, anyway.
Now, see, throw up a legitimate link and I concede and 'move on'. Neat how it works, isn't it?
And as far as moving on, Chris I told you that the entire premise of my article was about something else, so there's nothing I have left to prove here, I'm just responding at this point.
Here is an award winning MSNBC correspondent's blog titled 'MinuteMen on the March'. Perhaps you would like to read through it, and then respond to the charges made in it, specifically the second half of the article?
He words it better than I do. Note the concession that I'm not the best wordsmith (which Chris will gloss over).
He clearly shows what I try to, that the movement afoot involves supremists and that ideological extremists are at the helm of the movement. But that doesn't necessarily mean that MinuteMen are supremists. But that a bad element IS jumping on the bandwagon.
115 - Ramone Esteka
I just got back from the SPLC site Chris sent Steve to....
OH ... MY...GOD!......
IT JUST CONFIRMED EVERYTHING CHRIS HAS BEEN SAYING TO STEVE FROM THE GIT GO!
Steve, you really screwed up this time...how the hell are you going to get out of this one Steve?
116 - Steve S
what am I in, Ramone, that I need to get out of?
117 - Steve S
ANd Ramone, how does an article about a 'tiny chicano group' (to use the articles own words) illustrate Chris's theory that America is being invaded by thousands upon thousands who want to commit crimes and break this country apart?
And if they are in L.A. then why are the Minutemen on the border? How far is L.A. from the border?
118 - Steve S
Ahem.
119 - Ramone Esteka
A big pile of s**t or maybe you hadn’t noticed! Oops? Scratch that one? Let’s move on?
You frickin idiot - YOUR DOING EXACTLY WHAT CHRIS ACCUSED YOU OF A ZILLION POSTS AGO!! WHERE’S YOUR BRAIN GRINGO?
120 - Chris King
Steve,
It's taken all these posts....all this time to let you prove to yourself what I have been clear about from the beginning...only one thing.
Moral Clarity.
I defended Simcox.
I defended the Minutemen.
My argument was that you can't believe everything on the internet and you, yourself, just got a good taste of that. You must be very new at this because you obviously aren't very informed.
I say that because you said "Chris's theory that America is being invaded by thousands upon thousands who want to commit crimes and break this country apart". Oh Steve, that's not my theory, that is the belief of America. Go back and look at my list of Hispanic activists groups. Go to their sites...learn something.
Most of the apprx. 8-12 million illegal aliens come here simply to find work. Everyone of them breaks the law starting at the border and then fraudulent documents, motor vehicle non-compliance, welfare fraud on up to the serious criminals who commit rape and murder and drug related crimes. If you really don't believe that.....well okay.
Just as the truth that there are idealogical extremists riding this anti-illegal wave, there are just as many extremists attaching themselves to the pro-illegal movement.
History will prove that when the government steps up enforcement at the borders, the Simcox's, Gilchrist's, Minutemen and Chris King's will go back to their lives and other interests. That is what we have claimed from the start and history will prove that to be true. (you just wait and see)
The supremists and extremists you like to talk about will continue their vigilante crap and you will be able to focus on the trouble they cause for illegal aliens and the government.
Now we can go on and on.... like this last site you are all smug about...it's just a copy of the other sites we've all already seen (don't challenge me on that...there are paragraphs word for word)
... but you know what?...You've already proved my point for me...
..so I'm content.
Now this is just my opinion:
You will continue to besmurch others integrity and propagate any negative info that will further your agenda.
That is why I consider what you do more like a "gossip column".
I, myself have found more gratification in being committed to the truth.
To keep debating with an individual who can't even afford to send $100 to a charity, well, I think your way out of your league my friend.
As Clint Eastwood said: "Every man must know his limitations".
As far as Anthony, Dave, Ramone and ss?....to each of you....."Que tenga un buen vida"!!!
121 - Steve S
what am I trying to salavage, Ramone? That is what I am asking. Am I trying to salavage my credibility with you? If that article, linked on the spur of the moment, was never linked to, I would still have NO chance of getting credibility with you. So I have already said, at this point, I am just responding to accusations, I have nothing further to prove to you.
YOUR DOING EXACTLY WHAT CHRIS ACCUSED YOU OF A ZILLION POSTS AGO!!
yeah, that time I did. It's kind of a 'what the fuck is the point' feeling anymore, you know? I no longer was able to achieve anything in any discussion with him. However, when he accused me of falling for fabrications off the web, it was in response to my article, which basically only included links to mainstream media and human rights watch groups.
122 - Steve S
That is why I consider what you do more like a "gossip column".
well, shit Chris, I think you just learned something! What did you think I was?
123 - MediaWatch
To Steve: For Clarification not debate:
From: Jaime at the MediaWatch
The report you refer to by SPLC "tiny chicano group" was written in Fall 2001. Presuming they are still small is not the smartest thing you could do. You should be more observant and notice these details when you debate.
124 - Steve S
My argument was that you can't believe everything on the internet and you, yourself, just got a good taste of that.
Chris that wasn't the first time I linked to something on the spur of the moment and then later wished I didn't, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Sometimes you know that a debate, no matter how well presented, will still go nowhere, so you cease putting effort into it. I do anyway.
You must be very new at this because you obviously aren't very informed.
New at what? Offering my opinion?
Oh Steve, that's not my theory, that is the belief of America.
First you dispute Bulldog's post here about the La Reconquista lie, now you say that it's the belief of America.
Go back and look at my list of Hispanic activists groups. Go to their sites...learn something.
I don't need to learn that there are hispanic supremist groups and there is a bad element in immigration, I already know that and never disputed it!
Most of the apprx. 8-12 million illegal aliens come here simply to find work.
YES, they do. And I don't dispute that many of them might resort to fraudulent documents (most get paid cash and therefore pay no taxes, another problem), I don't dispute any of that! What I do dispute is the willingness to put someone to death for that (not something you've advocated personally, thinking of Anthony here).
Just as the truth that there are idealogical extremists riding this anti-illegal wave, there are just as many extremists attaching themselves to the pro-illegal movement.
I agree with you there Chris.
History will prove that when the government steps up enforcement at the borders, the Simcox's, Gilchrist's, Minutemen and Chris King's will go back to their lives and other interests. That is what we have claimed from the start and history will prove that to be true. (you just wait and see)
I look forward to the day when this whole issue is behind us, and if at that time I have to eat my words, I will, until then it's not over and it's still a dangerous situation and apparently escalating.
You will continue to besmurch others integrity and propagate any negative info that will further your agenda.
If you are referring to yourself, I never threw anything your way that wasn't thrown my way first. As far as Simcox's history goes, I did not print anything except what was already printed and already public knowledge. People have a right to know the ideological motivations behind the people they choose to follow, don't you think? Or would you want to not discuss Simcox's views with other Minutemen to make sure they are all on board with you.
Best of luck to you Chris. I hope the government steps in and that you all can go back to living your lives and not having to be a vigilante anymore.
125 - Anthony Grande
"Now, see, throw up a legitimate link and I concede and 'move on'. Neat how it works, isn't it?"
You talk about if you concede and move on it would be good for us, but we enjoy arguing with you. It would be for your own benefit if you concede and move on. You might salvage some credibility.