Have you ever heard of "La Reconquista"? Odds are, if you aren't a raging bigot or a member of the Minutemen Project, you probably haven't heard of it at all. But perhaps its time to learn about it. After all, notions of "La Reconquista" are being used to fuel racism and promote vigilantism in America.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - RJ
"people who are, at worst, committing a petty offense."
Actually, it's a federal felony...
27 - RJ
From here:
A breakaway of U.S. states is a distinct possibility, according to prominent Chicano activist and University of California at Riverside professor Armando Navarro. In an interview with WorldNetDaily, Navarro would not answer directly whether he shared separatist aspirations, but said that if demographic and social trends continue, secession is inevitable.
"If in 50 years most of our people are subordinated, powerless, exploited and impoverished, then I will say to you that there are all kinds of possibilities for movements to develop like the ones that we've witnessed in the last few years all over the world, from Yugoslavia to Chechnya," Navarro said.
"A secessionist movement is not something that you can put away and say it is never going to happen in the United States," he continued. "Time and history change."
In a 1995 speech to Chicano activists, Navarro said demographic trends are leading to "a transfer of power" to the ethnic Mexican community in the Southwest. He notes that most studies show that within the next 20 to 30 years Latinos will comprise more than 50 percent of the population of California. This fact, and other cultural and social developments, are opening the door for "self-determination" and even "the idea of an Aztlan," he said in his speech.
Aztlan, the mythical birthplace of the Aztecs, is regarded in Chicano folklore as an area that includes California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and parts of Colorado and Texas. Spencer believes the aim is to create a sovereign state, "Republica del Norte," the Republic of the North, that would combine the American Southwest with the northern Mexican states and eventually merge with Mexico.
"I see that as the overarching goal of the Mexican government and many Mexicans who want self-determination," Spencer said.
28 - Steve S
Chris regarding comment 25: yes, that is what the media reported extensively back when Bush called them that. Here is one link from a right wing website confirming it.
---
So now WorldNetDaily has jumped on the 'America is being invaded in order to break us apart' bandwagon too?
29 - Dave Nalle
I want to know where these people who think Mexicans are "subordinated, powerless, exploited and impoverished" come from? They sure don't come from Texas, because people here would just laugh at them.
Dave
30 - chris King
Okay Steve, you are right about several media groups quoting that story. Only one problem though, Bush never called the Minutemen vigilantes. But if you think I'm just messing with you, how about this, if you can find the tape or transcript of ...BUSH CALLING THE MINUTEMEN VIGILANTES...I will give $1000.00 to your favorite charity. If you can't, you simply have to print a correction for reporting a untruth. Willing to take me up on that?
Chris King
31 - chris King
Steve,
Help me here. I want to be clear on this issue. Your interpretation of Simcox's statement, as reported by the Anti-Defamation League, ("something fishy...etc),
is what you consider "proof"
that he believes the RED CHINESE ARE FUNDING the Mexican migration into the USA?
32 - Steve S
oh, no Chris, I am not a reporter, I don't have the ability to go galavanting all over the globe to verify a news story that's been reported by the likes of CNN, MSNBC and FoxNews.
I did a quick google search for 'Bush MinuteMen vigilante hoax' and turned up nothing revealing. Beyond that, I'm doing nothing more than what 99.99% of other bloggers do and that's comment on what a news story said and provide a link to it. Beyond that, I don't think I need to track down the accurancy of every news story I comment on. Blogging would cease to exist if that were the case. Should somebody find a legitimate report proving it was a hoax, I would be more than happy to include that link in the comment section, where I add updates from time to time.
And I think a standard definition, if not a technical one, of a vigilante is a citizen who takes the law into his own hands.
I will say this, Chris. I do think there are a lot of noble, patriotic souls down on the border who THINK they are doing the right thing. Not everybody down there of course has supremist motives or thinks we are under attack by outsiders with motives of breaking our country up, etc. Is that fair enough to say? While they think they are doing the patriotic thing, it's pretty clear they are doing the wrong thing though.
Chris, I live in a California town where I am a minority. English is not the primary language here. Rather than fear outsiders though, you will often find me among them, talking with them, human to human, and let me offer you my perspective.
Drugs are illegal practically worldwide. It so happens that South American countries are supplying drugs to the world. Because they deal in a black market, this makes their governments ripe with corruption and crime. Same with Middle Eastern countries that supply the black market too. Remember the taliban and heroin?
Anyway, people flee these countries wanting a better life. Of course we need to stop illegal immigration, of course it needs to be checked, but these people are not subversive invaders who want to fracture America apart. They are people seeking a better life. They are not the demons you portray them to be. Living among them, that is what I believe.
They come here to get away from the poverty and corruption of their homeland. Poverty and corruption caused by OUR drug habits and OUR hypocritical drug policies.
What's going to happen Chris, when you, as a MinuteMan, accomplish your goal of having the media swing cameras to the border, as you claim that is your goal? THat has been done already, so now what? People are still trying to stream across the border, right? What has been accomplished other than an increase in deaths now? THAT is why I say the MinuteMen are doing the wrong thing, Chris. Wrong, while maybe from noble intent.
People will quit trying to cross the border, when what's going on back in their homeland ceases to be what it is. And that will involve either the legalization of drugs (something the drug lords will fight) or a complete crackdown on drug usage, something that has so far been proven to be a failure.
Until then, it is nothing more than people seeking a better life, freedom from poverty and corruption. They aren't invading demons, Chris, sorry.
33 - Steve S
is what you consider "proof"
that he believes the RED CHINESE ARE FUNDING the Mexican migration into the USA?
actually Chris, that is just what I said here on this thread. In the article, I put it this way:
the fact that Simcox promotes conspiracy theories such as this one (link provided in article) linking Latino immigrants to the Chinese Army.
I didn't use the word 'funding', but show the connection that he implied, instead, using the word 'linking'.
34 - chris King
Okay Steve, no spin.
You said:
actually, if you read the article I wrote, you will see where I link to proof that Chris Simcox believes the 'invasion' from Mexico is funded by the Red Chinese.
Do you stand behind this statement or not?
chris
35 - Steve S
no, chris, that was just in a dialogue with you. That wasn't under oath or anything like that. If you want to change the word to 'promoted' or 'engineered' or whatever, that's fine with me.
I would stand behind the theory put forward that Simcox believes the Red Chinese is involved in the 'invasion', based on his statement.
36 - Victor Plenty
No spin, huh Chris? Then why not respond to the excellent points Steve raises in comment 32, rather than hammer away at a semantic argument over whatever phantom role the scary Chinese Communists may or may not be playing?
I've seen the reports myself. Simcox did mention Red Chinese in some capacity, which is enough to make him sound nutty unless he can bring very convincing evidence to support that claim.
Whether his claim had to do with "funding" or with some other form of involvement is quite irrelevant to that fact.
37 - chris king
Okay guys look:
When I was a child we would play this game where all the kids sat in a big circle and whispered something in the second childs ear. He would pass it on. When it came around full circle, we would laugh at how distorted the REAL statement had become.
Modern day media has lazily gotten into the habit of reporting erroneous and controversial news issues with little responsibility to the truth. Jason Blair, Dan Rather, Mary Maples are examples of this.
Heck, on this piece alone you've got Arian Race photos claiming they are Minutemen!
KPHO (your beacon of truth Steve) ran video of military clad men with ASSAULT WEAPONS racing around the border on ATVs! When I challenged them on that - they immediately stopped running it!
The other night on the KPHO/5 news, they wouldn't even mention that the huge pot bust in Strawberry was
four illegal aliens!
You guys can't even admit that history has now proven that the Minutemen did EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID THEY WOULD DO with not one violation! The Border Patrol Union had not one complaint about them the whole month while performing their neighborhood watch. And that's exactly what it was...a neighborhood watch. You know how many neighborhood watches there are organized by our government justice systems? Hundreds! TJ Bonner, high ranking Border Patrol official, has already approved of and suggested developing more citizen groups such as the Minutemen. Oh sure, Nicely, Adame and other politically correct higher uppers pooh poohed that....but those guys can't even get along with Homeland Security or ICE. But maybe you haven't noticed that.
Look guys, we can debate honest issues, but I choose not to ramble on about theories and concepts that aren't even legitimate.
Vigilantes take law into their own hands. NO MINUTEMEN BROKE ANY LAW OR TOOK IT INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.
Patrick Haab was an example of vigilantism. He got lucky on a technicality. Very lucky.
If you guys had some "first hand" experience with the MMP and Chris Simcox, you would change your tune. If Simcox is such a racist, Steve, why did he bother to rescue over 143 immigrants in trouble in the desert?
I consider it a cheap shot and underhanded to castigate and destroy someone's character simply because they read something on the internet.
Okay guys....rip me apart.
38 - Steve S
Why would I want to rip you apart, chris? What do you think my motives are here?
As far as Chris Simcox goes, I have never met the man, Chris, my opinion is formulated by what I have read of him, and it's not just one paragraph from a message board. It is profiles from the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Anti-Defamation League, by bloggers who monitor and track hate crimes and supremacy groups. It's from interviews with CNN (as blogged in my article), it's from news shows, I got my opinion of Chris from a myriad of sources, not just some 'rant' on the net, okay?
I choose not to ramble on about theories and concepts that aren't even legitimate.
unless it's got the word invasion in it.
39 - chris King
Okay Steve, your responses are grounded and civil, and that is refreshing, honestly, but you keep avoiding my questions. If Simcox is a racist, why has he saved illegals from perishing in the desert? Can you give me your thoughts on that?
Secondly, profiles from the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Anti-Defamation League, and bloggers who monitor and track hate crimes and supremacy groups are one thing. So for a little balance tell me specifically what you gleaned from the CNN/Lou Dobbs interview about Simcox.
40 - chris king
Oh, and one more thing Steve, I have twice now offered you $1000.00 to your favorite charity if you could come up with that quote by Bush. You said that your "quick search turned up nothing." And you showed no more interest in that. Hymmm...do you have a favorite charity?....or any charity worth spending a little more time on this offer? Or would the reality of finding out this "Bush vigilante quote" is not true as you thought, just something you'd rather not know about?
Just a thought.
41 - Anthony Grande
Chris, Bush did call them vigilantes.
That is one of the only things I disagree with Bush in. The Minute-men are doing something that should have been done a long time ago. If Bush isn't going to do something about the border then we will take up arms and do it ourselves.
42 - Anthony Grande
"And in case you haven't been keeping score at home, lately the Minutmen have also come out of the closet, so to speak. At a recent event, they unfurled an American flag alongside the Southern Cross Flag next to, you guessed it, the Nazi Party flag!"
This info is not true. The Nazis tried to join the Minute-men project for rascism purposes. The rest of the real minute-men are very angry about the Nazis. They have denounced them. What more do you want???
43 - RJ
I don't think "vigilante" is a bad word.
If the government is refusing to enforce its own laws, and if honest, decent American citizens are willing to take the time and effort to do it for them, it is "vigilantism" and it's also a GOOD thing...
44 - Anthony Grande
Vigilante isn't a bad word, but Bush meant it to be a bad thing when he said vigilantism is "wrong and dangerous"
45 - chris King
Anthony,
I have been playing a little cat and mouse with Steve on this issue so I'm only going to give you one chance to back up your statement.
1) Tell me when and where Bush called the Minutemen vigilantes.
2) Tell me when and where the Minutemen flew this flag.
Thanks guy,
Chris
46 - Dave Nalle
Chris, Anthony was supporting YOU, not Steve.
BTW, the vigilante quote is from a March 23rd Press Conference with Vicente Fox in which Bush said:
"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America. I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."
Since this was said specifically in response to a question about the Minutemen, he was unquestionably characterizing them as vigilantes.
Email me for the address to send your money to, Chris.
Dave
47 - Anthony Grande
Wow Chris, you ran your mouth and now you owe Mr. Nalle $1,000.
48 - chris King
Nice try Dave,
You got the date right and Fox was there. So was Prime Minister Martin from Canada. Now, I know that Anthony was supporting me in that message. But, guys, support or not, I believe in moral clarity. And the fact is Dave, Bush was not responding to a question about the Minutemen. The border violence had been discussed earlier at this conference. There had been several cases of armed detentions, search and siezures and murder of illegals leading up to this meeting. They discussed the Texan who actually shot an illegal on his property claiming he thought it was a pig. So border violence and citizen action was on everyone's mind March 23 in Waco Texas at Baylor University. A Hispanic reporter asked the question and it was interpreted and this is what he asked: "And, President Bush, I wanted to ask you about your opinion about those people who are hunting migrant people along the border."
Now, gentlemen, the Minutemen were not even in existence in March. They formed and began operations in April. President Bush also said he wanted Americans to "remain vigil, keep your eyes open and report any suspicious activity to the authorities" which is exactly the Minutemen's standard operating procedure. No contact. No Minuteman was allowed to hunt or detain or make contact with any illegals or he would be immediately expelled. Bryan Barton was sent home for giving the illegal water, food and a t-shirt in a silly publicity stunt. I might add that the illegal attempted to file false charges saying he was held against his will although the whole thing was documented on video which is why the Cochise Sheriffs department threw it out. I can provide the complete Bush transcript for anyone requesting it.
49 - Steve S
Okay Steve, If Simcox is a racist, why has he saved illegals from perishing in the desert? Can you give me your thoughts on that?
Chris, I did not say that Simcox was a racist. Can you pinpoint the comment or post where I said that? What I said was the founder of the MinuteMen Project promotes a conspiracy theory. That is a piece of fact, Chris.
Secondly, profiles from the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Anti-Defamation League, and bloggers who monitor and track hate crimes and supremacy groups are one thing. So for a little balance tell me specifically what you gleaned from the CNN/Lou Dobbs interview about Simcox.
Mostly what I learned from that interview was the realization that Lou Dobbs was not a balanced source of information.
You said that your "quick search turned up nothing." And you showed no more interest in that.
A quick search to see if it was a hoax, it was quick, because I knew it wasn't a hoax already.
I have no more interest in it, Chris, because it isn't the premise of my article, it isn't the point I was making. It's a semantic you are hung up on, that's all.
Please read my article again, the whole premise is nothing to do with painting Simcox as a bad man, I don't know the guy nor do I care to, and nowhere did I call him racist. The premise of my article is that there is a movement afoot in this country, the whole MinuteMen Project is just one aspect of a much bigger movement and that ideological extremists are at the helm. I have completely documented that. The Red Chinese comment is one fact of many. Please, Chris, I never said he was racist.
50 - Dave Nalle
So then, who is responsible for connecting this statement of Bush's to the Minute Men? And for that matter, why?
Dave
51 - Chris King
Dave,
The 'Bush vigilante quote' is a perfect example of media, bloggers and pro-illegal immigration types saying something often enough and long enough that it becomes real. What is really "telling" about Steve, is that, when I offered my wager to him, quite frankly, I thought he would be doing backflips to:
a)prove me wrong
b)win some dough for a charity
c)and legitimize his data base and beliefs
Curiously, however, he spent no time whatsoever on the challenge because in his own words "he knew it wasn't a hoax already"...hoax...were those my words?
So why not just provide the data and claim the money? He took the time to respond to a good deal of other points....somethin' fishy bout that.
When I challenged his use of the word "funding" re: the Red Chinese statement, he back pedaled and said:
"I NEVER WROTE THAT IN MY ARTICLE...I ONLY SAID THAT HERE ON THIS THREAD BUT I WASN'T UNDER OATH OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT". Oh, well okay. Sooooooo....things you say here...we shouldn't ....maybe.....believe?...
Actually, Steve says he blogged about the "Arian connection to the Minutemen Group" earlier. Now I'm sure that was in writing. But, again, Steve want's to lump EVERYONE together....I guess because that is easy. Simple. You see, there is absolutely NO CONNECTION between Aryans and Minutemen. NONE. But, hey, if Steve saw something somewhere on the internet.....BY GOSH IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!
Steve also said on this thread (wait, we must remember, he's not under oath here) that the current reaction will bring far worse consequences than the initial problem............wow.
I guess the current problem isn't that....great. Hymmm...Two Democratic Governors who are pro illegal immigration declare "State of Emergency" but hey, wouldn't want to do anything, it'll just make it worse, right?
He also said it was pretty clear the Minutemen were doing the wrong thing. I guess the Border Patrol are guilty of that too. Enforcing our international borders. IT'S JUST WRONG I TELL YOU!!
Steve questions why we don't see a simpler way. Does Steve?
Steve says I demonize illegals. Demonize.
I listed some of the damaging effects of this illegal invasion
(invasion: 2)to enter and effect injuriously 3)to intrude upon
4)infringement by intrusion
and now I'm a demonizer. Maybe I just made all that stuff up.
Oh yeah, and Dave, you and I need to be clear on this...We can't forget this important proclamation of Steve's.
Quote:
(Illegal Aliens)come here to get away from the povery and corruption of their homeland. Poverty and corruption caused by OUR (as in USA) drug habits and OUR (ditto) hypocrititcal drug policies.
THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS!!!
IT'S ALL OUR FRICKIN' FAULT!!!
Hey Dave, Steve's really tired of me now....whattya say you and I go have a couple Carte Blanca's.
52 - Chris King
So, Anthony?
Read back a few entries and then tell me again who's shooting their mouth off.
53 - Steve S
The 'Bush vigilante quote' is a perfect example of media, bloggers and pro-illegal immigration types saying something often enough and long enough that it becomes real.
Enough of the media has reported this as fact, and Bush's further comments afterwards attempting to explain it, tend to make it real. Me typing something doesn't make it real.
What is really "telling" about Steve, is that, when I offered my wager to him, quite frankly, I thought he would be doing backflips to:
Actually, what is telling is the aggression in your words. I'm not your enemy, I have the same agenda as you, stronger borders, I just don't think that vigilantism is the way to go.
And besides, I have a life, I can't be running all around the globe trying to prove and disprove items reported in numerous media sources.
Curiously, however, he spent no time whatsoever on the challenge because in his own words "he knew it wasn't a hoax already"...hoax...were those my words?
I think it was your word, but who cares if it was or not? You questioned whether it happened or not, I know that it did.
Oh, well okay. Sooooooo....things you say here...we shouldn't ....maybe.....believe?...
This is the most lamest attempt to latch onto one word, ANY word, and attack it, that I have ever seen.
Chris, who freaking cares, use whatever word you want, 'funded', 'engineered', 'masterminded', it's moot in establishing that the helm is run by an ideological wacko, because ANY word proves the point.
Actually, Steve says he blogged about the "Arian connection to the Minutemen Group" earlier.
I did.
You see, there is absolutely NO CONNECTION between Aryans and Minutemen. NONE. But, hey, if Steve saw something somewhere on the internet.....BY GOSH IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!
Chris, both groups are running around the border with guns in hand. They might not be friends with each other and they might not be sharing the same tents at night, but they both are doing the same thing.
Chris, saying the MinuteMen are Aryans is NOT my intent, nor is it what I said. You are misconstruing my words, getting hung up on semantics and completely missing the point.
Steve also said on this thread (wait, we must remember, he's not under oath here) that the current reaction will bring far worse consequences than the initial problem............wow.
I guess the current problem isn't that....great.
No, there is a problem, but illegals have told me that when deaths occur on the border, the drug lords will retaliate, that is what I mean by far worse consequences. You all have no clue what you are dealing with down there, by taking the law into your own hands.
Hymmm...Two Democratic Governors who are pro illegal immigration declare "State of Emergency" but hey, wouldn't want to do anything, it'll just make it worse, right?
Wrong Chris, you have allowed the Right to define the debate here. The Right tells you that I am accusing the MinuteMen of racism and that I want a horde of illegals streaming across the border, so that is all you see me saying, in spite of the fact that I have said exactly the opposite from day 1. I am on record, on another thread, as supporting the two Democratic governors and their actions to draw more government into the action so that there is less need for civilians to be patrolling the border.
He also said it was pretty clear the Minutemen were doing the wrong thing. I guess the Border Patrol are guilty of that too. Enforcing our international borders. IT'S JUST WRONG I TELL YOU!!
No, Chris, you clearly don't read my articles. You have some opinion of me forumated in your head and it's all wrong. No the Border Patrol are doing their job, they aren't wrong. The MinuteMen are.
Steve questions why we don't see a simpler way. Does Steve?
It would be a many facted answer, one of which would include massive economic development down south. It certainly doesn't include people running around our border with shotguns while moonbats on tv advocate the assassination of South American leaders. No, the Right sucks when it comes to foreign policy, sorry.
Steve says I demonize illegals. Demonize.
By spouting conspiracy theories that they want to break America up.
Hey Dave, Steve's really tired of me now....whattya say you and I go have a couple Carte Blanca's.
Hopefully your drinking skills are better than your comprehension skills, Chris.
54 - chris king
Steve, are you ever gonna get it?
You just keep proving my points over and over. Just in this post alone you AGAIN accused me of:
1)Using the word hoax......wrong Steve
2) Spouting conspiracy theories..not me....wrong again Steve
3) Minutemen running around with guns in their hands..........wrong Steve
4)"Taking law into their own hands"......so why weren't they arrested?.......wrong again Steve
5)"lame attack?"....."I wasn't under oath" ......now that's lame dood!
6)"but reporters keep reporting it"....thank you Steve for proving my point.
I asked my 13yr old daughter to search the internet for Bush's alleged quote "Minutemen are vigilantes". Not more than 20 minutes later she came back with a PRINTOUT OF THE TRANSCRIPT from the trilateral conference at Baylor, March 23,2005. She said: "Dad, he didn't actually call you guys vigilantes".
Now if my teenager can come up with that in a few minutes, what does that tell you about your skills, Steve?
Simcox said: "Something fishy going on over there.....................
Now to me, that sounds like he was a bit confused by what he observed, didn't quite understand it and found it puzzling. But Steves report is much more sensational:
SIMCOX PUSHING CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT RED CHINESE ARE FUNDING....no wait...ENGINEERING....hold on.....no MASTERMINDING!...yeah MASTERMINDING THE ILLEGAL INVASION FROM MEXICO!!!
................wow........dood.......
.....good stuff....................
Steve, with great concern said: "Chris, you have no clue what your dealing with down there taking the law into your own hands". I know because illegals have told me.
Steve...Steve...Steve.....My first two sons grew up in Caracas, Venezuela, ever been there Steve?....I didn't think so. We also lived in Mexico for four years and my wife became a US citizen years ago. Now, anyone who doesn't know the social structure of Mexico, the 12 most powerful families, the role of the Catholic Church, the intertwined drug/government cartel is not going to lecture me that Mexico's problems are due to US drug dependancy and broken policies. Grow up junior!
Your reckless and irresponsible use of media snippets, lumping together Aryans and Minutemen and Pat Roberts and the Right wing and Neo-cons and Lou Dobbs all under some phantom idealogical extremists ..... your complete disregard for the english language at others expense will land you in court someday
...observed can mean funded...allowed can mean promoted...
ignorant means stupid...
my god son...do you ever want to be taken seriously?...or are you going to work the rest of your life for half the pay you deserve?....but wait,it wasn't your fault...right wing big business stole that job from you....right?....don't be a victim all your life Steve...take responsiblity for yourself...write with integrity ...do it for your child.
55 - Steve S
Just in this post alone you AGAIN accused me of:
1)Using the word hoax......wrong Steve
Chris, actually I think you are insane. I did not 'accuse' you of the word hoax. Use whatever freaking words you want to put in the sentence, Chris. Is that easy enough for you to understand. I said I don't care if it was your word or not, because it is irrelevant to the overall point. Please, Chris, put whatever word in there you want. You have my permission.
I asked my 13yr old daughter to search the internet for Bush's alleged quote "Minutemen are vigilantes".
Whether Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes or not, was NOT the premise of my post. Is that easy to understand?
I reported what the media reported, I linked to their reporting of it, the general consensus of America is that he said it, and if you feel like a big man cuz you think you got somebody who doesn't give a shit tangled up in words over some comment that isn't even important to the overall premise, well, ain't you the big one.
Now if my teenager can come up with that in a few minutes, what does that tell you about your skills, Steve?
That they are prioritized to things that matter.
Now, anyone who doesn't know the social structure of Mexico, the 12 most powerful families, the role of the Catholic Church, the intertwined drug/government cartel is not going to lecture me that Mexico's problems are due to US drug dependancy and broken policies. Grow up junior!
On the one hand, I see illegals who come here tell me that they come here to seek a better life, and to be free from corrupt governments down south. They also tell me that if the MinuteMen f*ck up the drug routes on the border that a war will be started.
On the other hand, I see some guy on the net, thinking he's all big because he's telling me to not believe everything I read off the net. And then he spouts his credentials in one online paragraph like he's some world traveler who's got the immigration problem all under control and all figured out cuz he lived in Mexico for 4 years.
Whatever.
my god son...do you ever want to be taken seriously?
with 'grow up junior' and 'my god son', I'd like to say thanks for offering to be my father figure, but I don't need that in my life anymore.
And people call me the nutcase. I do want to be taken seriously. But not everybody can be reached. I am of the firm opinion that there are some people who are so ideologically close minded that they cannot be rationalized or debated with. I came to the conclusion about you awhile back.
...or are you going to work the rest of your life for half the pay you deserve?....but wait,it wasn't your fault...right wing big business stole that job from you....right?....don't be a victim all your life Steve...take responsiblity for yourself...write with integrity ...do it for your child.
Yes, right wing big business outsourced my job. I'm not a victim, I've already gotten other income. I take responsibility for myself, if only you could do the same. I write with integrity, I believe in everything I write and apparently millions upon millions of Americans also agree that Bush called you a vigilante. Whether they change their mind or not has nothing to do with me.
56 - Steve S
Chris, here is your freaking semantic.
Bush never said 'the MinuteMen are vigilantes'.
The topic of discussion WAS the MinuteMen on the border WHEN BUSH SAID:
"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."
Okay, the topic was the minutemen. Bush then said that. We can all draw our own conclusions as to what he meant. Chris is a smart guy for pointing out that Bush never said 'the MinuteMen are vigilantes' verbatim. Whoop-de-do.
Having said that Chris, I will reiterate that we BOTH want stronger borders. I am just against jeopardizing the lives of civilians in order to accomplish that. You, however, feel it's okay to put all our lives out here at risk, for you to play patriot.
57 - chris king
Awww...Steve...you just can't bring yourself to read the REAL transcript, can you. Keep up the gossip amigo!
Lunacy: Repeating the same actions expecting a different outcome.
58 - Victor Plenty
Got a link to this "real transcript," Chris?
59 - chris king
Victor,
March 23, 2005 Baylor University, Waco Texas. Trilateral conference Bush, Fox and Martin. The whole transcript is available.
Victor, my argument is that the news media creates much of today's controversial issues because of mis-reporting. How many times have you heard someone say...."My words were taken out of context....here's what I actually said and meant". The old saying in journalism is "If it bleeds it leads". I would say realistically about 50% of what you read today is really accurate.
On this thread you will notice that I only argued with Steve based on what HE said to me directly. He kept trying to convolute the argument by referring to other news snippets and his own incredible hatred for violence, Bush, the right wing etc... He also would never even scroll up to see what he said in the previous post...so he constantly kept contradicting himself. He also never could contribute any real ideas for a solution...(it was too multi faceted for him to comment) he could only criticize over and over. Read back and you'll see what I mean.
Look, I know Bush is against vigilantism....so am I. But on March 23 the Minutemen were NOT EVEN IN EXISTENCE, but the news media WRONGFULLY PREDICTED that they would be just like all the other crazy vigilante hunters running around endangering people's lives. But history proved that the Minutemen in April in Arizona acted responsibly and reserved. They did exactly what they said they would do: sat on lawn chairs with binoculars and cell phones and called the Border Patrol when they sighted suspicious behavior. It's true...I was there.
The vigilantes Bush was talking about in Waco were the Aryan groups, and the human hunters that were chasing around illegals with shotguns and pistols in hands and detainging them and in some cases shooting them. Now that's vigilantism. Remember Vincente' Fox and allll the other activist's said: We'll stop the Minutemen with lawsuits!! It's against the law! We'll take it to the Internation Court! The ACLU had scores of lawyers ready to pounce on the Minutemen. Gee, what happened to all that?
Not one incident. Not one lawsuit. Nothing. The whole month of April - nada. Why?
Because the Minutemen were a completely peaceful group that were allowed to carry open sidearms but were COMPLETELY RESTRICTED FROM REMOVING THEM FROM THEIR HOLSTER except in self defense. (note above, Steve claims they were running around like Aryans with guns in their hands).
I personally witnessed Chris Simcox and his group rushing to fallen border crossers with water and blankets - saving their lives! But the media was there only looking for some sensational event or statement that they could broadcast in bold print to and claim, "MINUTEMAN SAID THIS - MORE VIGILANTISM!! Steve's motives are simply the same. He attempts to tie the Aryan group with the Minutemen to discredit them.
Victor, seriously, go to the Arizona Border Patrol Union website and read what they had to say about the Minutemen. You'll be surprised.
Take Care:
Chris
60 - Chris King
Victor, Dave, Anthony,
Here's the post:
Check it out and then PLEASE...go back and read MY posts. THE TOPIC WAS NOT THE MINUTEMEN - THEY WERE NOT IN EXISTENCE ON MARCH 23.
Steve still refuses to read the "authentic transcript". In his last post he continues to quote other news articles. Anyone wonder why he hasn't claimed the wager I made?...interesting eh?
Remember, please re-read my posts after you've read what Bush said.
Get back with me guys.
Chris
61 - Steve S
Chris, you are wrong about my premise. You also call me a Bush hater. I don't hate Bush, you cannot comprehend what you read.
I was NOT trying to discredit the Minutemen. They do that on their own, and nothing I wrote in my article contributed to that. What I DID show, is that there is a movement in this country, which is not just on the border, but is taking place everywhere, in the courthouses, in the school system and in the white house. And I NEVER called anybody racist. I said that ideological extremists were at the helm. And I proved that.
Beyond that, all I did was bitch at you and the Minutemen for putting our lives and our safety out here in jeopardy so you can play patriot.
62 - Steve S
And Chris, one final thing. Let me see if I understand this correctly. You attack me online, saying that I shouldn't trust everything I read off the internet, and then your 'source' that you provide, attempting to 'prove' that I'm wrong is the whitehouse.gov URL?
Well, if there's one thing people here know, it's that they can trust the White House implicitly. Surely it does not lie.
The entire mainstream media, including sources on the Right, that I provided, say that Bush DID refer to the Minutemen as vigilantes, but Chris comes up with a white house webpage saying otherwise, so you sure showed me. THank you for proving your infallible evidence to others.
63 - Chris KIng
Steve,
I have not read your articles, I have only responded to your comments on this thread (it's called focus). You say the Minutemen put your safety in jeopardy by attempting to protect our borders? Good one Steve.
Let?s see:
92% homicides in LA County - illegal aliens.
80% crime in Arizona - illegal aliens.
Estimated 76,000 Mara Salvatrucha MS-13 gang members in US on crime sprees.
4100 illegal alien child sex offenders
91% of all cocaine meta-amphetamines, marijuana smuggled in through our southern border
Illegal Alien home invasions, drive by shootings....immeasurable.
110 assaults on Border Patrol Men this year alone in Arizona
230 young women killed in Nuevo Laredo simply ?for sport?.
Wow, damn those Minutemen. Why can't we all just get along?
Whoah, a transcript from a conference! Steve, by god you were right! IS NOTHING SACRED?! I ran down to the studio and found that our videotape had been tampered with. I called my friend at the AP and he confirmed for me also - someone from the government has erased ALL of the Minuteman references from their transcript too!! YOU WERE RIGHT SON - IT?S A CONSPIRACY BY THE GOVERNMENT!!
YOUR ON TO SOMETHING BIG AMIGO!
64 - Steve S
I have only responded to your comments on this thread (it's called focus).
For the rest of us, it's called 'failing to get the bigger picture'.
You say the Minutemen put your safety in jeopardy by attempting to protect our borders? Good one Steve.
yep.
YOU WERE RIGHT SON - IT’S A CONSPIRACY BY THE GOVERNMENT!!
this is why failing to get the bigger picture is so funny right now. Because I NEVER said there was a conspiracy by the government.
Now, here is the lines from the link YOU provided:
And, President Bush, I wanted to ask you about your opinion about those people who are hunting migrant people along the border.
PRESIDENT BUSH: I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America.
--
*Chris jumping up and down* He didn't call us vigilantes, did not, did not, did not! Nanny nanny boo boo.
Continue on, Chris.
65 - Ramone Esteka
the difference between chris and steve are best shown this way:
scenario #1 chris's house sat night
(knock at the door)
chris answers the door and theres a guy with a mask on holding a knife. chris asks him what he wants. "I'm a rapist and he starts in. Chris replies: BOOM! BOOM!
scenario #2 steves house sat night
(knock at the door)
steve answers the door and theres a guy with a mask on holding a knife.
steve asks him what he wants. "i'm a rapist and he starts in. steve looks over his shoulder and yells "honey, it's for you".
when the minutemen were here in april in arizona, my wife and i never felt safer. thanks chris! keep up the good work!
ramone esteka just one more mexican tired of people who break the law and idiots like steve who sit at their computer with a bong and whines about the real men and women out there trying to keep america strong proud and safe.
66 - Chris King
Oh, Steve, I get the bigger picture but it isn't your picture. Mine is that over 80% of the US population including 47% of the Hispanic vote (as demonstrated in Arizona re: Prop 200) are tired of illegal immigration and are willing to do something about it. You claim there are "idealogical extremists" influencing them...gee you don't think Americans can think for themselves, Steve?
Re: Bush Statement. If the question to Bush had been "Mr. President, what do you think about that group that is forming in Arizona to watch for border crossers next month?" .....(or something like that)
then I would agree he was commenting on the Minutemen. But then, the proper response should have been, "well it's too early to tell, I certainly don't approve of vigilantism, but we'll have to wait and see if any in this group breaks the law or takes it into their own hands before we rush to judgement.
Right now their claiming to merely assist the Border Patrol by phoning in suspicious behavior which I have been asking the American people to do."
67 - Chris King
Ramone!
Great post! Had me laughing! We'll be back in October. Que tenga buen dia amigo!
Chris
68 - Steve S
Hmmm. Actually, I believe in defending one's home.
I live in a small California town that is predominately Hispanic. The largest salad/lettuce manufacturers in the world are out here, and they are the ones actively fighting to keep things they way they are, so they can get cheap labor. According to public information, these corporations donate heavily to the Republican party.
I am around immigrants all day, and no, I don't smoke with a bong or anything else. These immigrants tell me that the story 'back home' is that if the drug routes get screwed up, the drug lords will send all sorts of shit to the border. I have no interest or concern in keeping the drug routes open, I do have concern on keeping shit out, something the Minutemen make more likely, not less likely to happen.
It shows a simple frame of mind, incapable of complex thought, to always make things an either/or situation. I have said repeatedly that immigration is a problem, yet Ramona portrays me as unconcerned. With your ideological side, it's either your way or the highway. There are no shades of grey with you guys, it's always black and white, can't handle anything more complex.
69 - Steve S
and also, your reports showing things like crime/homicides by illegal aliens don't show the percentages of illegals killing illegals and/or gang related activity. It's well over 90%. Unless you are a gang member, you are at much lower risk, and are far more likely to be injured from a nutcase playing patriot than from an illegal. Spoken from someone who LIVES here, and doesn't just come here twice a year to beat his chest and pee on a fence post.
70 - Anthony Grande
I have the solution to the whole Illegal Immigration problem: Build a 50 Foot Electrical wall across the entire border.
After the first few illegals get shocked to death the rest will either try and get a Green card or get used to their surroundings.
Of course there will be the ones who dig under and thats why we will still have a small number of Border Patrol.
If not this Bush needs to stop hiding from this subject and do something big to stop our problem. He is from Texas so he should know.
71 - Steve S
I am all for tighter borders. There are a lot of comments that call for the death of those who come into this country, the electrical shock you would be willing to do a perfect example.
I'm saddened to see that I'm so alone in thinking that sentiment is a bit harsh. To me, the most they have done at that point is trespass. I don't think that is worthy of death, but then again, I also don't think that someone should have their hands cut off for stealing a loaf of bread. Perhaps you do.
72 - Anthony Grande
Steve, anyone who tries to climb an electral fence deserves to die for idiocy. The idea would be is to build the fence so they stop trying to get over here.
You are obviously not from California Steve, because if you were, like me, you would understand.
73 - Steve S
Anthony, I do live in California.
74 - Anthony Grande
Yeah and...
Do you want an award??? or what???
75 - Steve S
no, you said if I was from California, I would understand.
I'm from California and I don't understand murder.