Story here:
There are growing signs of hostility between secular Iraqi insurgents and Muslim extremists — some of them foreigners — fighting under the banner of al-Qaida.
The factions have exchanged threats and are increasingly divided over the strategy of violence, much of it targeting civilians, that aims undermine the fragile new government.
[...]
In Ramadi, the capital of Anbar Province and a stronghold of the insurgency, homegrown Iraqi fighters have begun recently to air their differences in menacing fliers plastered on walls and distributed in mosques — making threats and denouncing the tactics of the extremists, according to witnesses who have seen the fliers.
Some of the fliers threaten reprisals against the militants or threaten to inform police of their identity and whereabouts. The extremists have not publicly responded, but residents say the fighters have kept a low profile since the appearance of the fliers in the Euphrates-side city and that some of them may have moved to the outskirts to avoid clashes.
Ramadi's insurgents argue that al-Qaida fighters are giving the resistance a bad name and demand they stop targeting civilians and kidnappings. Al-Qaida militants counter that Iraqis who join the army and police are "apostates" — Muslims who renounce their faith — and deserve to be killed.
"They have tarnished our image and used the jihad to make personal gains," said Ahmed Hussein, a 30-year-old mosque imam from Ramadi, speaking of al-Qaida fighters. "They have no legitimacy," said Hussein, who claims insurgency links but says he's not a fighter himself.
In Baghdad's mainly Sunni Azamiyah district, another insurgency hotbed, residents have repeatedly brought down from walls and street light poles the black banners of al-Qaida in Iraq.
The rift also involves Sunni Arab tribal leaders frustrated by the continuing violence. And it is being encouraged by Iraqi authorities in the hope that it would isolate the militants. Iraq's local TV channel, Al-Iraqiya has recently been showing nightly interviews with captured Iraqi insurgents and foreign fighters, many who speak of alleged links to Syrian intelligence.
Iraq's newly elected president, Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani, urged insurgents to sit down and talk with the new government, but he's made it clear his offer is exclusively available to homegrown Iraqi insurgents and not to extremists or foreign fighters.
"We must find political and peaceful solutions with those duped Iraqis who have been involved in terrorism and pardon them, and invite them to join the democratic process," Talabani said Thursday as he was sworn in at parliament. "But we must firmly counter and isolate the criminal terrorism that's imported from abroad and is allied with criminal Baathists."
Continued on the next page Page 1 — Page 2
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - SFC SKI
Well, I would hol off on the triumphalism and I-told-you-so for a bit longer. I firmly believe, and events back up my guarded optimism that the situation is improving daily in Iraq, and that stability will be achieved, we still have a long way to go.
On thing this article does touch on is that not all insurgent forces have the same motivation. If Iraqi insurgents do become more poilitically involved, and if they feel the foreign fighters are doing more harm than good, they will split further, and in fact actively work or fight against the foreign fighters, and that can only be a good thing.
2 - gonzo marx
ya know..i was very pleased reading the first part of this Article..happy that things were going well for our Troops, and that progress could be made...
then RJ sez..
*Kerry, had he been elected, would have indefinitely postponed the election, and would have gone on a trip around the world, groveling and begging the French and Germans for a few extra troops in Iraq. It is unlikely they would have complied.
But even if they had sent a handful of military personnel to Iraq, without the successful election, the insurgency would have only grown stronger. And instead of a fledgling democracy in an increasingly stable Iraq, we would have more chaos and death, and a new President desperate to get the hell out of there ASAP.
And the media, along with their Democrat friends, would have blamed it all on Bush, and said that Kerry was handed an impossible mission by his incompetent predecessor. And that cutting and running was the only sensible thing to do. *
RJ heading into political assasination attempts, spin and a bullshit fairy tale on his speculation of "what would have happened"
should have stuck with just the Facts...instead you had to try and "score" with your made up whining
so my Question is..
how long have you been staring into those Crystal Balls and tea leaves?
this isn't quite as bad as your "thalidimide baby" crap ...but the attempt is just as feeble and transparent...tho not quite as offensive
and here we see
final score in the Respect column..
RJ minus 3 points
Excelsior!
3 - Dave Nalle
What RJ posted does make a lot of sense, though. There's no reason why the outside terrorists and internal insurgents should be terribly friendly towards each other. Their objectives in Iraq were different from the start, and their attitudes towards the Iraqi people are certainly radically different.
Now that the government is getting going I bet a lot of the insurgents are trying to figure out how to ease their way back into society, and I imagine that ratting out some Al Quaeda would put them in pretty good standing with the powers that be.
Dave
4 - gonzo marx
like i said Dave...the first part was pleasing enough..and not too far fetched speculation based on plenty of "unconfirmed sources" but still...within the Realm of reality..and with just enough Facts in there to be plausable
i Quoted where he jumped the shark and showed his True Colors...
he earns yet another Insidious Troglodyte Award
congratulations RJ!!
Excelsior!
5 - RJ
GM:
This isn't mere crystal ball gazing.
Kerry said REPEATEDLY that elections COULD NOT TAKE PLACE, and that, if elected, he would postpone them.
Kerry also said that he believed French troops and German politicans would come to the table and send "peacekeepers" to Iraq if only the arrogant Bush was finally out of office.
But Kerry lost. And the elections went ahead on schedule. And they were successful. And the insurgency has been stifled largely because of it.
So...how exactly am I wrong here?
6 - RJ
Call me all the names you want to, GM. It just reflects poorly on you.
As for the MSM, they had it in for Bush for MONTHS before the election. Everytime I opened NEWSWEEK or TIME, it was "Iraq in chaos" or "Bush blundered" or some such, every fucking issue.
If Kerry would have won, it's OBVIOUS that these same people would have claimed that Bush lost because of Iraq, and that it's a mess because of him, a needless and pointless war for OIL or whatever.
And Kerry also pledged, during the campaign, to bring home THOUSANDS OF TROOPS regardless of the situation in Iraq, and he also pledged to announce a date for TOTAL WITHDRAWAL.
So, yeah. If Kerry had won, Iraq would be a much different place right now (and in the future). Sorry if that hurts your delicate feelings, but it's clearly true...
7 - gonzo marx
RJ...because you are speculating on something that DID NOT HAPPEN...ie: Kerry winning the election
it is just as likely that he MIGHT have said..."wow..after actually seeing all the info available to the White House , i am going to keep Colin Powell on as Sec of STate and let him go ahead as planned and see how it works out"
both your's and my "predictions" are equally worthless
let's stick with the facts shall we?
or are you just pissed because you can't pick on Clinton now that he and Bush Sr. are getting along after the whole tsunami thing?
i'm no Dem, and could care less about Kerry...but the type of cowardly bullshit tactics you are attempting here by bashing someone NOT EVEN INVOLVED since November is just childish and silly
and we all know, gentle Readers...that when childish and silly rears it's silly putty head from out of the dumpster that yours truly will be there to giggle
nuff said?
Excelsior!
8 - RJ
"you are speculating on something that DID NOT HAPPEN..."
Of course (thank God!).
But Kerry's own statements are evidence that my alternte-universe prediction is spot-on. Unless, of course, he was just a lying bastard during the election, and would have done a 180 after inauguration day...
9 - RJ
it is just as likely that he MIGHT have said..."wow..after actually seeing all the info available to the White House , i am going to keep Colin Powell on as Sec of STate and let him go ahead as planned and see how it works out"
That scenario is "just as likely"?
C'mon. This guy was, no IS, a Senator. He gets pretty much the same info as the Prez.
The only way he would have pulled a 180 is if he was a lying bastard. (Which he is! So maybe you have a point!)
10 - RJ
"when childish and silly rears it's silly putty head from out of the dumpster that yours truly will be there to giggle"
Call me all the names you want. The facts back me up.
Kerry said REPEATEDLY that the election COULD NOT EVER take place in January.
But it did.
Oh, and Kerry wouldn't have been inaugurated until late January.
So, not only does he pull a 180, but he does it just a few days after becoming Prez?
Unlikely.
Naw, he woulda postponed the election. And the terrorists would have been therefore emboldened.
And there would not be an elected gov't in Iraq today. And the insurgency would still be going strong. And Kerry would be pulling troops out, and begging for an exit strategy, and announcing a date for complete withdrawal.
Hey, those are HIS OWN FUCKING WORDS!
Smile, GM. :)
11 - RJ
it is just as likely that he MIGHT have said..."wow..after actually seeing all the info available to the White House , i am going to keep Colin Powell on as Sec of STate and let him go ahead as planned and see how it works out"
Sooo...Bush was right?
Thanks! :)
12 - gonzo marx
yer just too much kid..but that's ok
if Bush was correct or not is still pending..looks good so far..
my problem with the war in Iraq stems ONLY from the fact that we were decieved about the WHY of it
where are those pesky WMD's again?
if you believe ousting Saddam was worth a pre-emptive strike into a sovereign nation..ok...he is the president and it's his call
folks like you impeached th elast president for lying about a blow job..howabout fro lying abuot the reasons to go to war and getting our troops killed an dspending hundreds of billions of tax payers dollars?
but you want to skip all that and instead bash the guy that lost the election
RJ sez..
*Kerry said REPEATEDLY that the election COULD NOT EVER take place in January.*
ok..show me that Quote once please...some news article, stump speech..anything..i don't quite remember those words coming from his mouth...i am not certain he didn't say it..but toss up a source
as for #11 above me there..
note what you quoted from me was a FANRASY of what Kerry MIGHT have said..just as likely as your ficticious scenario..
you win the dittohead award for quoting out of context in a juvenile attempt at making points..
read closely RJ..my ONLY beef with you here was the ficticious speculation and bashing ...i gave you NO shit for the speculation based on dubious unconfirmed sources..or any of the rest of it
that's because..being ex-military myself..i only want for our Troops to be safe, and for this to be all over with..
but the same President who said "we will not be involved in Nation building" is doing just that...note the Pentagon request for a few hundred billion over the next few years to build PERMANENT bases in Iraq..they are asking for 10 at this time
me?..i just want the Troops home and safe, not being killed and wounded for SOMEONE ELSE'S WAR
simple enough for ya?
Excelsior!
13 - RJ
"where are those pesky WMD's again?"
Ask the French, Russians, and Germans who ALSO felt that Saddam's Iraq was still in possession of WMDs...
14 - RJ
So.
Iraq is becoming more stable.
Afghanistan is alright.
Lebanon is moving in the right direction.
Egypt and Saudi Arabia have offered semi-democratic elections.
The Palestinians have actually elected someone other than Yasser Arafat...
Libya is WMD-free...
And numerous former-Soviet satellite states are marching towards freedom.
All within the last 4 years...
But, let's not credit Bush with anything!
15 - gonzo marx
but i do credit him with some things
lying about the reasons we went to war
not catching bin Laden
not being able to pronounce nuclear
a bunch of stuff
kidding aside..i also give him credit where it is due ni some areas...just not some of the ones you seem to
Arafat died, hence the elections..or are you claiming Bush killed Arafat?
Libya never had any serious WMD's and has been wanting back into normal relations for well over 10 years..
Egypt and Saudi Arabia ain't done shit but talk yet..we will see what happens..i am hoping it works out and makes progress..but not laying any money down on it
Afghanistan is where we SHOULD BE...still not stable..the number 1 opium producer in the world..and where is Osama?
you know..the fucking mastermind behind the Towers falling down...public enemy number one
still ain't found him..ain't heard the President say SHIT about him since the whole march to Iraq started...
ya wan tme to think he is serious about fighting terrorists..then fucking fight some...get bin Laden...
remember...there were NO Iraqi's on those planes..a bunch of Saudi's...but NO Iraqi's
part of why i am pissed at the Shrub is he hasn';t gotten bin Laden yet
that clear enough for ya?
and the Soviet Union now appoints their governors and the Duma..you only vote for which Party you want...democracy in Russia has been set back by how far under Putin?
i am very happy about the Ukraine tho..how did Bush do that exactly?...i thought it was those protestors
stick with Facts, RJ..and you and i can agree on stuff..or disagree honestly and without rancor
keep spouting off an dtrying to tak ecredit for stuff that is NOT involved and we will keep going round and round, and i will leave it to the gentle Readers to decide who is trying to be honest here and who is trying to spin
nuff said?
Excelsior!
16 - SFC SKI
Gonzo, a brief note on "permanent" bases.
Soldiers living in all but the biggest headquarters bases live in what can be kindly called squalid shitholes. I lived in a building that had had most of the roof and an entire wall removed by nearby bombing. It was hastily rebulit and reroofed, and the intermittent electricy was provided by a 30kw generator running 220 volts through single extnsion cord that bracnched out to power a small store bought AC unit, and whatever comforts I and my 6 roomates might use packed into a room approximately 12' x 20'.
It was palacial compared to the plywood shanty built inside the food processing plant, where I walked through pools of standing water of dubious origin to wait my turn for 1 of 10 computers set aside for email use in a large tent.
Showers were open camp style, hot water depending on the time of day and the heat of the sun.
THat was a big step up from the un-airconditioned tent next to the fuel tanks of a power plant, where we fought with flies to eat food in a shaded area that had been an open -air maintenance bay.
Which seemed like heaven compared to the ancient and disused abandoned British army compound where the toilet facilities were a hole in the floor, and the rooms where we were to sleep were covered in blown out glass and sheep and human feces. Showers were a five gallon can and a washcloth, privacy optional if you wanted to sweep out another room.
If you're not getting the point, we are building better accomodations for the people that need to live and work there for the duration, and if you are going to build it, you might as well make it durable, because when we leave we will turn it over to the Iraqis to use in either a civilian or military capacity.
Permanent, more like built to last.
17 - gonzo marx
fair enough Ski..and thanks for the input..
i was not criticizing the Army here..merely pointing out some facts
being ex-Navy myself..well, we look at some things differntly than grunts have to
NEVER take my being upset over the reasons we got into this for anything other than that
as i have said repeatedly...all i want is our Troops home and safe...i KNOW they are doing the best job possible under the circumstances, and i am all for getting them whatever they need to do so
like armor for the Humvees, which they SHOULD have had BEFORE entering into an elective, pre-emptive war...it's one thing responding to an attack and not being able o set th etime an dplace...then you do with what ya have
it IS inexcusable to not be prepared to the utmost when you are calling the shots
THAT is part of my problem as well..sheer fucking incompetence on the part of those IN CHARGE...NOT the commanders and troops on the ground
hope that help to clarify..and thanks again for the input
Excelsior!
18 - SFC SKI
I did not take any of the above as criticism, buzzwords or all CAPS gets my attention.
I'd prefer to only go back to Iraq as a tourinst, but we are years from that, and getting there takes the actions we are taking now.
Iraq is one ugly country, and I have been all over the world. Really, the only redeeming feature is its people, and slowly buit surely htey are taking over and working for the future. We don't want to stay there, they only want us to stay long enough to get the kob done, sounds good to me.
19 - Floris Vermeir
I think its a good evolution. And as David and other wrote, if the iraqi insurgents want to reintegrate, then identifying the Al-queda insurgents is an advantage for them.
The election as written in the article was indeed a turning point. And as for the Suni boycot, well maybe that this way they will learn that boycotting, is a good symbol, but is of no use if you want to take part in governing your own country.
20 - Marc
GM "how long have you been staring into those Crystal Balls and tea leaves?
"
Answer: The same length of time Kerry did that prompted him into repeatedly declaring "I have spoken to foriegn leaders."
21 - marc
OBTW get of this crap GM "my problem with the war in Iraq stems ONLY from the fact that we were decieved about the WHY of it
where are those pesky WMD's again?"
Are you that disingenious to believe your were "decieved" or just so misinformed that you believe it was the only reason the war was justified?
OR like many of your ilk you choose to ignore the other double digit number of valid reasons, plainly outlined before the war, and pick on the sole issue where you can be close to stateing the truth.
22 - Scott
Well I think if Gore had been elected in 2000, September 11 would not have happened.
23 - Dave Nalle
>>Well I think if Gore had been elected in 2000, September 11 would not have happened.<<
Are you really that clueless? They attacked the WTC the first time while he was Vice President, what would be different if he'd been elected president?
Dave
24 - Tw@
Okay... I'm tiring of this form of exponential smoothing going on here about JFK2 (That's John Fitzgerald Kerry with the 2 indicating the 2nd JFK, or shall we attach demi-god status and make it jfk2 in non-captial font).
Kerry showed his butt in Nam,
Received MORE combat medals in a shorter amount of time than... are you ready.... Audie Murphy (the most highly decorated soldier in WWII).
Does that seem odd. Okay, he boogers out of the conflict overseas with the magic 3 (purple hearts) joins the anti-war movement (can't blame him)... he's a suck up all around.
He sucked up to the establishment by going to war. He sucked up to the darlings of the peace movement. And missed movement with the American voters during the campaign.
It wasn't all his fault, the Hollyweed egomanics probably had something to do with it... they jumped on the band wagon and opened their mouths... emitting loud oral flatuance, which turned off many (would-be) supporters of the democratic party, but not necessarily Kerry.
People vote like playing chess. It's not about the person... it's about the party -- 'til hell freezes over. In a word Groupthink. Which as you know is not considered an attribute, but rather a deficit. Lemming like, marching to the sea to fall off of the cliff... and then... wonder of wonders, can't see their own shortcomings with the tactics and with great howling and gnashing of teeth continue to show they're pimply asses with puffery about Bush this and Bush that... Cheney this and Cheney that...
Pick you sorry asses up, dust your sorry asses off... shut your pie holes and get a flippin' plan put together.... NOW!
Wishing, and whinin' is not going to cut it. Tell the dorks on the far left (with media buyin') to shut the *&#% up, take the Carvelles, Kerrys, Gores and Clintons out to dumpster and RE-INVENT the party... RE-INVIGORATE the discussion, RE-INVEST in core values, RE-INHABIT the political landscape.
American's don't like losers, sore-losers are even loathed all the more.
Oh... and if YOU didn't vote (which a fair percentage didn't)
a) You don't have shit to say about it
b) Shame on you
Enlighten people... don't turn them off
Educate people... don't engage in nasty name calling.
Engage in logical, reasoned discourse.
Embrace the NEW capitalism, it's what pays your rent.
25 - Scott
"Are you really that clueless? They attacked the WTC the first time while he was Vice President, what would be different if he'd been elected president?"
Dave, I was using hyperbole the same way RJ used it in his article concerning Kerry. It's a good enough piece without going into speculation on what Iraq would or would not be like now if Kerry had been elected and supposedly postponed the elections. It's mixing fact with fiction and is really nothing more than a bash at Kerry for something he didn't do and that didn't happen.