When the Barnarians leave Washington, will our capital feel the relief of an epic enema? Don't bet on it.
What will Washington be like when the Barbarians leave town next year?…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The Fun Of Waiting For The Barbarians To Leave Washington - Comments Page 4
Article comments
126 - Arch Conservative
Just thought I'd point out that the first no bid contract in the middle east for Haliburton was actually on Clinton's watch Adam.
Were you aware of that?
127 - bliffle
It's all Clintons fault.
128 - Clavos
There IS no terrorism if we just ignore it.
Instead of retaliating when they blow up a building or trains, we should just clean up the mess and go on with our lives.
In a few years, they'll see we're not terrorized, and they'll quit, frustrated.
129 - STM
I dunno Clav. All sounds good in theory, and I agree with the bit about getting on with our lives, but sadly, many of these guys are from the middle east and in some of the more extreme cultural environments there, if you show weakness, you lose face to the point where anything else is thus regarded as fair game.
I can tell you with certainty that that is how it is, having experienced it first hand many years ago.
I think the thing we do all need to remember is that we're dealing with extremists, rather than ordinary people - who are not likely given to that kind of behaviour.
And ordinary people do not deserve to bear the brunt of these retaliations.
My view is that terrorist acts are also criminal acts, and are best dealt with that way (by an international law enforcement effort) rather than with bombs and bullets.
Talking won't help though, 'cause really for this current crop of terrorists it's mostly about trying to force an issue: the imposition of religious beliefs that even most other muslims don't want.
130 - Clavos
Stan, I'm sorry.
I was mostly being sarcastic, and obviously didn't convey that.
Actually, I agree with your basic premise on how to respond. I'm not sure about an "international law enforcement effort." The way I see it, the only existing organization for that, the UN, isn't up to the task. But, I agree that they ARE criminals.
And I absolutely agree that talking won't do it.
How to set up, arm and implement an international police force is the nut.
My vote would be to ask Scotland Yard to take the lead on it, with ALL western nations responding to what the Yard needs for the job.
131 - troll
as I see it the only ones who can put an end to the radical Arab jihad are the bloody Banu Hashim
132 - STM
I think Interpol is sharing its resources, which is good, and various counter-terrorist units are involved and the info at least is shared already, so that's a start.
133 - STM
The Banu Hashim?? The tribe of Mohammed?
134 - Clavos
Yeah, troll. Why them? Do they have an incentive to do so?
According to Wikipedia, they've been at odds with rest of Islam, off and on, before.
Is that what you're alluding to?
135 - troll
yes Stan Clavos...they need to retake Mecca from the Wahhabi wack jobs
136 - troll
(Stan and Clavos that is)
137 - STM
Nice new picture BTW, Adam. The hair's an improvement :)
138 - Adam Ash
STM:
Yeah, better hair. Thank you.
You should check out my CD at DingBots where you can listen to the first 2 minutes of every sone for free.
My songs are even wilder than my posts. Check out especially these songs: "My GF Got Freaky with a Strap-on," "We'll F Anything," and "Sexual Terrorist".
Adam Ash.
139 - gonzo marx
@ #124
"And the radicalized population we're talking about isn't as small as you think. It's probably in the neighborhood of 50 million people or so."
i don't know where you pulled that number from...but even if it's accurate, my IRA example is perfectly valid since there are a billion or so Muslims in the world, that means you are talking 5% of said population, less than 1% of the world's population
most Muslims do NOT share the radical basic beliefs, just like most Irish Catholics don't share the beliefs of the IRA...
i won't even go over the rest, my mistake for even attempting to engage you directly, you show your true colors with this bit - "PNAC is so beyond irrelevant that I can't even imagine what point there would be in discussing them."
since those you consider "irrelevant" are the architects of much of this, by their own admission and remember the original signatories of this cabal are...
Elliott Abrams,Gary Bauer,William J.Bennett,Jeb Bush,Dick Cheney,Eliot A. Cohen,Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky,Steve Forbes,Aaron Friedberg,Francis Fukuyama ,Frank Gaffney,Fred C. Ikle,Donald Kagan ,Zalmay Khalilzad ,I. Lewis Libby,Norman Podhoretz,Dan Quayle,Peter W. Rodman ,Stephen P. Rosen,Henry S. Rowen,Donald Rumsfeld ,Vin Weber,George Weigel,Paul Wolfowitz
and include the likes of William Kristol and Charles Krauthammer, Doug Feif and Richard Perle
so this "don't look behind the curtain" but instead "look over here at the boogeyman, not even the one we should be after, but this made up one in Iraq" kind of thing is just beyond me as to how to deal with
congratulations, you sit right next to moonraven and Les...
/ignore
Excelsior?
140 - Dave Nalle
since those you consider "irrelevant" are the architects of much of this, by their own admission and remember the original signatories of this cabal are...
The neocons are the engineers of Islamic fundamentalist jihad? Come again.
Dave
141 - Dave Nalle
Someone earlier brought up the hashemites. I think that argument might have some merit. Creating a caliphate under a moderate leader would be one of the best ways out of the current situation. But the problem is that the hashemites are perceived as weak and westernized and their powerbase isn't sufficient to go out and take Mecca without US support, and US support would delegitimize them.
Dave
142 - gonzo marx
"The neocons are the engineers of Islamic fundamentalist jihad? "
actually what i am saying is that that cabal which drew up the policy and implementation of the Iraq invasion (some actually in the Administration at the time, some still there, like the VP) are the ones who conflated Iraq somehow with the "war on terror"
this caused the distraction away from the REAL architects that should be of primary concern in the Afghanistan/Pakistan border..this has allowed al Qaeda to flourish to a high level while Blood and Treasure has been wasted on the folly of Iraq rather than being spent to hunt down and decimate the actual folks who planned and financed 9/11
typical of Apologists to distract from the actual issue and toss up pure bullshit rather than actually deal with the facts and issues
never said shit about the neocons being "responsible" for jihadists, but their policies and errors have clearly enabled the growth of said jihadists according to the National Intelligence Estimate
hence why anything from any of these folks on the subject, or their cheerleaders and Apologists is completely suspect...liars and/or incompetents only get so many chances, and theirs are all used up
"the greatest Trick the Devil ever pulled off was convincing people he didn't really exist" - Kaiser Sose
Excelsior?
143 - Lumpy
Guys. Just give up trying to get people like gonzo and bliffle to see sense. Bush hatred is irrational and no amount of reason will cure it.
144 - gonzo marx
Lumpy - irrational?
is wanting to hold folks accountable to the Oath of Office they swore and the Constitution irrational?
that's all i'm talking about, really
we are a Nation ruled by Law, not Men..that's a strict conservative constructionist statement, is it not?
personal responsibility and accountability is also supposed to be a prime conservative tenet...at least for those like Goldwater it was
so cite what you think is "irrational" and i'll be glad to show my thinking, with links for factual data used
until then, your claim is completely unsubstanitated
do also note, i don't give a fuck which gang does it, or which side of the aisle they are on...if i think someone has overstepped or violated the Constitution i'll always be just as harsh
can you say the same?
Excelsior?
145 - moonraven
Dan,
1. Your link was to a page that does not exist.
I am very familiar with the Middle East. Afghani women wear burkhas--some of them. Iraqui women do not--nor do Kuwaiti women, Bahraini women, Saudi women, etc.
As for your admission that you had not been to the Middle East--your ignorance is so profound that no admission was necessary.
And your comment about Western Civilization being superior is really a bit over the top, considering that you are about as civilized in your "ideas" and form of debate as some guy from the Stone Age.
When you do not know anything about something, the INTELLIGENT and CIVILIZED thing to do is to keep your mouth shut--at least folks won't immediately know you are just bullshitting.
146 - Dan
moonraven, yea, I had a little trouble with the link. I had to repost it and then I think the editor moved the reposted link back up into the original, and it changed.
I sense that you would like to be confrontational with me, but can't find anything substantive to engage with.
Note that I never even asserted Iraqi women wear burkha's. Or, make an "admission" that I'd never been to the middle east.
If you want to impress with some trivial distinction in creepy costumes worn by women from 'alternative' societies, Ok, you've got me.
I think there is probably a majority of people who are over the top on this board. That's why I visit. Sane people are boring.
I enjoy your spasms. And the way you don't care about fitting in. It shows enhanced character not to be needful of a supportive clique.
Adam's music ain't too bad. The couple songs I listened to.
From the irreverent titles, I expected a sort of brash rockabilly, mojo nixon styling. There is some of that, but it's pretty polished. Lots of layered vocals and instrumentation. A mandolin even. Great studio quality too.
A little bit of the extreme political sentiment leaks out, but it's a good hook to sing edgy, sometimes humorous, lyrics in a solemn, meaningful way.
147 - troll
Dave says - *But the problem is that the hashemites are perceived as weak and westernized and their powerbase isn't sufficient to go out and take Mecca without US support, and US support would delegitimize them.*
perhaps they should consider an unholy alliance with the Persians (and their backers from the East) - enemy of their enemy and all...
148 - moonraven
Dan,
I am HERE to be confrontational--with everybody.
Not just you.
As for not caring about fitting in, as a Native American I guess I will have to say: fit in to WHAT? and with WHOM?
149 - Dan
That's great moonraven. Carry on.
Oh and Gonzo, good news! Michael E. O’Hanlon and Kenneth M. Pollack from the decidedly liberal Brookings Institution have turned.
In an op-ed in the treasonous New York Times, no less, titled "A war we might just win" they conclude that the debate in Washington seems "surreal" in light of all the progress they've seen on the ground.
It seems as if the surge is working.
"Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with."
You may need to go into "/ignore" mode on this one. There's some detail about how Iraqi's are finally understanding who has their best interests at heart.
Obviously, the liberals platform of lies is being eroded by overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Just like with the US economy.
They must feel the need to acknowledge the shift, or lose credibility to even the most stupid of their sheep.
I'm rooting for our guys. And, any good Iraqi's.
It's funny that the authors of the editorial still couldn't resist their lymbic hatred of Bush. Calling themselves "two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq"
As if Bush and Co. could have reasonably expected the Iraqi people to initially understand the gift they were given.
I hope that when Iraqi's turn it all around, and give US discount oil, that liberals won't begin to complain about Bush causing increased obesity rates in Iraqi children.
150 - gonzo marx
Dan - i use my /ignore sparingly, and it's not cuz i don't agree with something, if you hang around a while you will figure that out...
as for the news coming from Iraq...firstly..you lose points for this one..."in the treasonous New York Times..."
see, referring to dissent as "treason" is just fascist bullshit, so you might want to rethink that when trying to enter into reasonable discussion on a topic...
or is it that reasonable discussion trying to find solutions to problems is not your thing and you are just slinging mud to tickle your own fancy?
as to the meat of it, i'll wait and see come September...too many conflicting reports form differing places, and my own sources in-country paint a far different tale than either side of the aisle is dishing out
that being said, while i can only hope for some stability for Iraq, i ain't holding my breath...at best we are looking at a Shi'a dominated fractional government, with the faction in charge wanting the Sunnis exterminated, but at least willing to leave the Kurds be...which Turkey doesn't want for fear of their own Kurds defecting/splitting off
a much more Gordian knot than most sources are willing to admit
this one slays me tho..."Obviously, the liberals platform of lies ..."
thanks for showing your true colors twice in one comment...now it is simplicity itself to take anything you type with a huge partisan grain of salt...you don't even pretend to be impartial or objective...
your Right, of course...but hardly conducive to conversation or to you being taken as anything but a shill
enjoy your day
Excelsior?
151 - gonzo marx
and just so you can see a little of what i mean about conflicting reports...
a contrarian link for Dan.
do look at the sources for data in that link, i looked over yours..and you know what...those peopel from Brooking are basing their analysis on...surprise!...things they were told while visiting under controlled circumstances
that's not to say no progress has been made, i'm fairly certain that in limited areas of the country (where they allow visitors to go, especially) things are improved
but, as in the link i provided...things like medical facilities, clean water, electric service and the like...are still abysmal
a mixed bag for certain, eh?
Excelsior?
152 - Zedd
Zing
Thanks for the reply.
I supposed that is the contention. What is liberal and what is extreme liberalism in today's context. The same for conservatism.
The polarization of the nation only testifies to the lack of true moderate ideas and beliefs.
Does gun advocacy represent moderate views and does advocating for men to marry one another depict extreme views? We are so nutty as a society that its nearly impossible to tag extreme ideas.
I consider moderate engagement that which is based on logic, which may lean in one way or another but is balanced in consideration for the most part. What I see, even among most of us on this site is and echoing of ideas based on what camp you belong to regardless of the rationality behind them.
153 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I've been reading the back and forth here and like most arguments about American foreign policy in my neck of the woods and the fools making it, the arguments get confused.
Let me suggest a paradigm for you that might guide you at least in what you are arguing about. It's found in my latest piece Waiting for War in the Shards of Shattered Illusions - Part II.
"...what is transpiring can be likened to a four layer cake of death. The first layer is the propaganda line of "nation building" of the United States in the Middle East. It would be harmless enough, were it not for the tremendous casualties suffered in Mesopotamia and here - casualties that lend the bitter taste of wormwood and ashes to the rest of the concoction. The second layer is a battle for resources, mostly oil. Others have examined this in more detail than I. Suffice it to say that in a battle for oil, Israel or its fate counts for little.
The third layer of this cake of death deals with the competing messianic claims over this country. Here we get involved with the competing visions of what this part of the world, particularly Jerusalem, represents. The claims range from the Shi'a who feel that the "Mahdi" is just around the corner and that Ahmadinejad is going to make the world ready for him, to the ideas that the last Catholic pope will reign from Jerusalem and a place on Mount Zion must be found for him to proclaim the law - Catholic style - as coming from Zion. Against this is ranged the Wahhabi theology that seeks to rid the world of infidels, and to cleanse Arab land of the filthy Jews, etc. Finally, there is my view - the prophecies of my ancestors millennia ago that appear to be taking shape.
The fourth layer: the fourth layer is the issue of good versus evil. And anyone who investigates the close ties of the "Palestine Liberation Organization" with Nazis and former Nazis cannot doubt where the true evil lies. If we consider that Adolf Hitler's pilot was considering taking his leader to, of all places, Jerusalem, to hide out from the world seeking him, and if we consider the ties between English organizations like the "Golden Dawn Society" and the NASDAP, it does not seem so strange at all."
You'll need to go to my piece to catch the links embedded in the above paragraphs. While my piece concentrates on Israel, the basic analysis applies to Middle East and central Asia.
Most of you have been arguing about the top two layers of this cake of death - the propaganda line put out by the United States (whether supporting it or not), and the resource war taking place. Occasionally some of you pop in conclusory statements alluding to the very bottom layer of the cake of death, the very basic issues of good vs. evil.
I'm not really tossing in my opinions of all of this - aside from agreeing with Adam that the leaders presently in place in the USA are barbarians. But perhaps this paradigm might help matters out a bit...
154 - bliffle
Dan #149: "In an op-ed in the treasonous New York Times,..."
I assume that the treason is in reference to NYT supporting the invasion of Iraq which threatens to destroy the nation.
155 - Dan
Touch'e there biffle. I may need to start referring to them as the previously treasonous NY Times.
Gonzo: "i use my /ignore sparingly, and it's not cuz i don't agree with something, if you hang around a while you will figure that out..."
I've commented here for several years, and have first hand knowledge of under what circumstances you retreat to /ignore mode.
Your presumption to define for me the paramaters of "reasonable discussion" is as pompously preposterous as your pretense of impartiality.
Your dismissive regard of my post would require one to believe that liberal intellectuals-- your intellectuals-- are vulnerable to a simple hood-winking.
I could just as easily dismiss your counter post as the typical squealings of leftist "humanitarian" groups dependent on emotionally coerced donations.
I don't of course. Being objective, I don't have that specific information. They probably do good work.
I agree with the "mixed bag" analysis. That's probably how it will always be. That's all I've ever contended, except to say that the strategy of nurturing a flowering of democracy in a desert of barbarism is a sound foreign policy.
156 - gonzo marx
for Dan - "retreat"????
lmao...no, not a retreat, but rather resignation that there just no talking with some folks for one reason or another...as always your mileage may vary
i do think both 150 an d151 are pretty engaging in conversation/discussion with you..nothing dismissive there, i admit to some theorizing based upon some of your more scurrilous comments demonstrating a less than objective approach, for all your protestations ot the contrary...but i'm willing to be shown differently should you chose to do so
having been around as long as you say..then you are well aware that i will admit any mistake, if proven to me, and publicly correct myself if needed
perhaps you missed this thread and my comments within...read it over, then come back and let me know just how "leftist" i am
i fucking despise all "ists" , "isms", "ologies" and hyphenated American sobriquets...
i may indeed be a reactionary in many instances, but i do my best to remain a non-partisan contrarian...it may appear i pick on the GOP more as of late, but they have been the ones holding the reins of Power, and fucking up with them...so they draw the brunt of my ire at this time
hope that helps
Excelsior?
157 - Dan
Yea, I did miss that one. Pretty impressive. I wouldn've guessed.
Wouldn't it be funny if I turned out to be an open border enthusiast?
Although I protest that I never accused you of being a dogmatic leftist, only that the Brookings fellows were "your intellectuals" in regard to the war.
I will be careful not to pigeon-hole you in the future. Hopefully, I can expect the same.
"Scurrilous comments" can become entertaining hyperbole when you know there is thoughtful, honest, analysis behind them.
Thanks for sharing.
158 - Dave Nalle
Adam and others. You might find the reaction which this article attracted when someone posted it on either entertaining or scary depending on your perspective.
Dave