When the Barnarians leave Washington, will our capital feel the relief of an epic enema? Don't bet on it.
What will Washington be like when the Barbarians leave town next year?…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
The Fun Of Waiting For The Barbarians To Leave Washington - Comments Page 2
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
Adam, you now exist in the context of Realist. And compared to him your marginally insane rantings seem so tame that they're hardly even worth bothering with.
Plus a lot of our 'rightwing fanatics' have been harassed into relative silence by the constant abuse of extreme leftists. BC hasn't become an echo chamber yet, but the left has little patience for dissenting opinion.
Dave
27 - Dr Dreadful
Dave, a common scenario involving pots and kettles springs to mind.
Switch 'right' for 'left' in your second paragraph and the accusation is just as valid.
28 - Adam Ash
Dave Nalle:
Gotcha! You're so easy.
Adam Ash
P.S. Poor "rightwing fanatics ... harassed into relative silence by the constant abuse of extreme leftists." So now you call them wuzzes, Dave?
29 - REMF
"Plus a lot of our 'rightwing fanatics' have been harassed into relative silence by the constant abuse of extreme leftists."
- Dave Nalle
Oh really? So it doesn't have anything to do with the cluster-fuck in Iraq, eh Popu...er, I mean, Nalle?
30 - bliffle
Good article Adam.
I was startled to see Dave use the word "insane" (again) which is a legal term for someone who has been adjudged so in a court of law. Have you, or Realist, actually been judged "insane" by a court? Or is Dave just over the top (again) in his hyperbole?
Where to escape to? Well, Mexico has always been a favorite for US dropouts, Costa Rica used to be good but has abandoned some of their good programs like the Pensionado and the $50k business deal (they were just too successful), Panama was very good, but now they may be revising their Pensionado program, etc.
Europe has always had some good deals, Spain being a good one. Yugoslavia is inviting. For the bold and brash, Russia is still pretty exciting. England is too expensive and even the Brits are heading for more agreeable climes. France and Italy are beautiful, have good food, and pretty good climates. Just stay away from national capitols like Paris and Rome, live in the countryside or a provincial capitol, like Toulouse, Albi, etc.
Usually I figure that the US system is robust enough to recover from aberrations like the neo-mess, but this time it's different because it seems to be what the populace wants, so it runs too deep to disappear soon, and I probably won't be here to see it. Good luck to you who have to stick it out.
31 - Baritone
My wife and I have given some consideration to moving to Germany. My son has lived there for 4 or 5 years and loves it, although he does miss home at times. Of course, he speaks the language fluently. We struggle with "guten morgen" and "danke shoen." But I guess we could pick up what we'd need over time.
But I'd really miss some American things which are generally difficult to get in Germany. What would those things be, you might ask? Well.
Tap water at restaurants.
Ice in drinks.
Clothes dryers.
Stores open 24/7.
Air conditioning.
American style toilets.
When we were in Vienna and later in various parts of Germany, they looked at you oddly if you requested a glass of tap water. Many places had no ice for drinks available at all.
I could probably get along fine without a clothes dryer, but few places have them owing to the cost of energy. My wife would more likely find that a bother.
I could also probably adjust to the lack of 24/7 shopping, but it certainly is convenient to go to, well, a convenience store at midnight to get a gallon of milk or a can of coffee. Or to be able to go to a drug store and get something for a cough or a case of the shits.
Obviously, all of the above are, on balance rather piddling trifles.
Living without AC would for me be really a chore. Where my son has been living has been extremely hot most of the summer. His apartment is on the top floor of his building with poor air circulation. He can't even find a fan, for whatever reason.
Then there is the toilet problem. You world travelers probably know of what I speak. In Austria and Germany, at any rate, most of their toilets are designed with what is euphemistically referred to as "the shelf" which is high and dry. One does not truly appreciate the job that having water in the bowl does for one's olfactory senses.
I know. I have bared my soul and revealed that I am a truly shallow, spoiled American. What can I say? These are things to which most Americans are accustomed
After several days in Germany a couple of years ago I found myself dreaming of sitting on a wasteful American toilet, sipping a glass of ice water from the tap (yeah, I know, it's a fairly disgusting dream) in an air conditioned apartment while my clothes are spinning dry down the hall in the laundry room, contemplating a midnight run to Krogers for a pint of Ben and Jerry's Chunkey Monkey.
Now THAT'S America!
Baritone
32 - Dave Nalle
P.S. Poor "rightwing fanatics ... harassed into relative silence by the constant abuse of extreme leftists." So now you call them wuzzes, Dave?
Actually, the sad part is that the real fanatics like Realist on the left or Bambenek on the right DON'T get silenced. They're self-contained and they rant on and on. It's the moderate, insightful and broad-minded ones who get silenced. It's the Silas Kains who get driven away, because there's only so many times they can stand to be called a Neocon or a Nazi by people who don't want to hear even the most reasoned and middle of the road idea if it's outside of their chosen echo chamber.
Dave
33 - Adam Ash
I hereby invite Silas Kains to post on this thread. Please, dude, we won't call you a Nazi, but if you display neo-con tendencies, we might call you that.
If you get "driven away" because someone calls you a "Neocon," I suggest you develop a thicker skin than Dave Nalle suggests you have.
I'm from the center left, but Dave habitually & mistakenly calls me an extreme leftist.
Not that Dave's name-calling will ever drive me away. We people on the left are not the wuzzes that Dave Nalle takes a "moderate, insightful and broad-minded" person like you for.
Adam Ash
34 - Nancy
Excellent article, terrific rant, Adam. Couldn't have vented better myself. You're sickeningly correct: most of the people who bother to vote are just too goddamned dumb to live, let alone vote, & both parties are sinks of corruption, infested by parasites & created & maintained by the plutocracy. As for B's contention that the rich are people, too - no, they aren't. They themselves don't see themselves as being "of the people", but above the people. Remember Leona Helmsley? Well, her attitude is typical & 'normal' for those in the superrich ruling classes. Another more recent example: Paris Hilton, decrying the "fairness" of having to actually serve prison time. So, no: don't equate the rich with actual people. They aren't, & they would be insulted that you have.
I fear what we need is an old-fashioned, bloody revolution, a la 1785 France, or 1917 Russia, where the rich aristos literally lose their heads; unfortunately the concomitant carnage of truly innocent people isn't worth even getting rid of the plutoparasites.
I don't know what the solution is. To say 'vote them out' is a joke. They control our choices. They control the idiot, easily manipulated MSM. They control the voting machines. They control the candidates. And once elected, those elected refuse to honor the promises they made of cleaning house. Pelosi is a prime example of that. And we the people are stuck with no real viable way of punishing liars, thieves, & the corrupt except by voting them out ... maybe...& replacing them with some maggot just as bad.
I hope Cindy Sheehan DOES run against Pelosi. And I hope she wins. And I hope she keeps her word, or at least tries.
Meanwhile I hope Ebola Zaire strikes the entire US congress, K St., Pentagon, & everybody connected with BushCo, starting at the top.
35 - gonzo marx
on a side note...Silas a "neocon" or "nazi" ?
lmgdao!!
yeah , right
i'll personally slap the snot out of anyone who would even imply such
to be fair, you have just as many folks put off by many of the rabid "right" spewing their moonbat liberal AM talk radio bullshit as you might have ...MORE so than any *moderate* scared off by being called a "rightie"
so please do remember it works both ways, an NO ONE is qualified to be casting that first stone, eh?
Excelsior?
36 - bliffle
Adam: "Not that Dave's name-calling will ever drive me away."
The new technique seems to be encouraging Red Herrings, such as lengthy diversions about golf scores or vacations in Portugal.
37 - Clavos
The new technique seems to be encouraging Red Herrings, such as lengthy diversions about golf scores or vacations in Portugal.
Neither of which was started by Dave. I started the Portugal one AND the golf score one, though not the suggestion of golf scores; that was the Doc.
Too bad you don't like it, bliffle, but I don't really give shit what you do or don't like...
38 - Dr Dreadful
It's the moderate, insightful and broad-minded ones who get silenced.
Dave, I swear sometimes you're as paranoid as moonraven.
If these contributors are as moderate, insightful and broad-minded as all that, surely they wouldn't let themselves be driven away by a few insults?
39 - Dave Nalle
Yes they would, Dr. D. Because they LISTEN and take what others say seriously. The ideologues don't listen to other people. They know they are absolutely right and so nothing from outside of their sphere of awareness means anything to them. Look at Moonraven. She's a perfect example. Even the peoplel who agree with her politically hate her, but she pays no attention at all. It's the open minded people who actually care about the ideas of others who are traumatized and beaten down and driven away by harassment.
Dave
40 - gonzo marx
but we keep coming back just to spite the rabid partisans
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
41 - Dave Nalle
I hereby invite Silas Kains to post on this thread. Please, dude, we won't call you a Nazi, but if you display neo-con tendencies, we might call you that.
Neocon IS the new nazi. The technique is to call anyone who thinks the war in Iraq might lead to a positive outcome a Neocon and dismiss anything they say on that basis. Those of us who totally disagree with the Neocons find that pretty offensive.
I'm from the center left, but Dave habitually & mistakenly calls me an extreme leftist.
You can say you're from mars, but that doesn't make it true. Your behavior is a better indicator of what you believe, and your idea of moderate is a moderate's idea of extreme.
Not that Dave's name-calling will ever drive me away. We people on the left are not the wuzzes that Dave Nalle takes a "moderate, insightful and broad-minded" person like you for.
It's wussies, not 'wuzzes'. And you more extreme types aren't wussies, because you're too self-righteous to ever engage in self-doubt or introspection.
Dave
42 - gonzo marx
gotta call bullshit here on one thing...for all that some may protest the neocons and their Agenda...if you have spent time and effort DEFENDING or acting the Apologist for them, you might as well grab the PNAC award and write for the Weekly Standard with Krauthammer and Krystol, et al
objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Excelsior?
43 - Dr Dreadful
Dave, there are still plenty of moderate and open-minded people on here who give as good as they get and haven't been silenced or chased away. For example:
STM*
gonzo
Baritone
yourself (well, some of the time...)
Clavos
me
bliffle
Zedd (again, some of the time!)
I know there are others I'm missing. Apologies where due for omission.
I'm also aware that few of those I've mentioned post articles regularly. But isn't it a good thing for a writer to be strongly opinionated? It certainly makes the ensuing debate more lively!
* Come to think of it, haven't seen Stan on here for a few days. Maybe we did scare him off... Or has he already set out on that Portuguese jaunt of his?
44 - Christopher Rose
Cough, cough...
45 - gonzo marx
ya gotta turn yer head to the right, Christopher...
now, time for the rubber glove...bend over and sing "Moon River"
Excelsior?
46 - Adam Ash
Dave:
You say:
"It's the open minded people who actually care about the ideas of others who are traumatized and beaten down and driven away by harassment."
Dave, really, come on. "Traumatized"!? Give me a break, guy. Your self-pity is unbecoming. Cut it out.
As for me being extreme: most of the country agrees with me about Iraq. Are you calling the majority of Americans who want us out of Iraq extreme?
Another more telling point is about your extremity of bad manners. I have given you FREQUENT props when I think you are right, as I've done on this very thread when I told you that you were right about the visigoths and huns. You have only ONCE in more than two years given me any props.
I wish you displayed more simple good manners in this regard. I believe many people who post on BC threads would agree with me about this personal point of your quick leaps to rudeness.
It's OK to bash each other about ideas, but when it comes to the simple matter of simply being nice, and giving props where due, and appearing to appreciate the vigor of debate, your unmannerliness strikes me as a human failing on your part.
I hate to bring it up, but the evidence forces me to point it out to you.
Nonetheless, I appreciate your usually excellent logic, your sterling defense of your POV, and the vigorous and well-reasoned way you state your beliefs -- and I welcome and enjoy your comments. There, I've gone and gotten polite again.
I wish for the sake of BC, that we could hear the same tone from you. Once in a while, at least.
BTW, check out my CD. You may appreciate its sense of humor. Perhaps it'll even soften your heart.
Adam Ash
47 - Dr Dreadful
[sigh] Yes, all right, Chris. We can't be having an extremist comments editor, after all. I hereby count you one of the moderate, reasonable ones.
Unless someone says the word 'soccer', of course. That seems to make you see the red mist...
48 - Nancy
Dr D...if I'm not spewing specifically against BushCo, I'm against BOTH parties...where does that leave me in your estimation? Surely not w/Moonie?
49 - Dave Nalle
"It's the open minded people who actually care about the ideas of others who are traumatized and beaten down and driven away by harassment."
Dave, really, come on. "Traumatized"!? Give me a break, guy. Your self-pity is unbecoming.
Do I look like I'm traumatized? I've got more than enough ego to insulate me. But I do have some concern for the casual participant who gets slammed by the preconceptions of the particularly strident and dogmatic ideologues.
As for me being extreme: most Americans agree with me that we should get out of Iraq. Are you calling most Americans extreme?
Of course not, but most Americans oppose the war in Iraq for pragmatic reasons, not for ideological reasons. You and many like you oppose the war because you either oppose war in general, or more likely, oppose the idea of the US engaging in a war to spread our values. Most Americans don't even think about that stuff. They just oppose the war because they perceive that we're losing. When we seemed to be winning they were all for it.
But here's a more telling point. When it comes to good manners and politeness, you go extreme in the other direction. I have given you FREQUENT props when I think you are right, as I did on this every thread when I said you were right about the Visigoths and huns. You have only ONCE in two years given me props.
Adam, that's because only once in two years have I thought you were right. I write on a much broader spectrum of topics, so there are more opportunities for me to surprise you with something you agree with. You write on the same limited set of topics over and over again, and say much the same thing. You don't create the opportunity for me to say anything positive.
To be fair, I don't always read the other sections. You may have stuff in them which I'd agree with enthusiastically. I just see what you post in politics.
I think many on BC would agree with me on this simple matter of politeness. I hate to bring it up, but the evidence forces me to point it out to you.
Adam, it's not my job to go out of my way to find reasons to praise you. Write something in Politics which is laudable and not just another boring attack on the right, Republicans or Bush. Write an article that expresses a positive idea for the nation without bashing anyone. Then I'll give you all the 'props' you deserve. But when have you ever written anything like that?
It's all great fun to bash each other's ideas, but the occasional nod of gentility would be appreciated.
Unmerited gentility would be insincere. At best I'd be pandering. At worse I'd be collaborating. In either case I'd be a hypocrite.
But to be fair I'll go through your writer page and see if I missed anything positive.
Nonetheless, I appreciate the logic of your arguments and the well-reasoned way in which you state your POV. I welcome and enjoy your comments. There, I've gone and gotten polite again.
Very nice. And I appreciate your passion, misdirected though it may be.
I wish we could get that tone from you. Sometimes, at least.
"we" do. It's just that you seem not to.
BTW, take a listen to my CD on
cdbaby.com/cd/dingbots
I'll give it a try. Assume that I'm being polite if I say nothing at all about it. If I like it I'll be more outspoken.
You may appreciate its sense of humor. It may even soften your heart.
So long as it doesn't soften my head.
dave
50 - Dave Nalle
oh, and for the record, I liked this article quite a bit more than most of what you've written. Except for the fact that the premise is completely backwards - I'm with those who think we have civilized corruption and need some barbarians - the use of the barbarian metaphor is good.
Dave
51 - moonraven
Baritone:
Can't get along without an energy-guzzling clothes dryer and energy-guzzling AC, huh?
You are a perfect caricature of the reason I stopped hiring "native English speakers" as teachers here in Mexico.
Bitch, bitch, bitch--the place is full of Mexicans and there are too few WalMarts.
Nancy,
You should be so blessed as to be in my company--but no chance for round-heeled commentators with me.
Being beautiful as well as intelligent, I don't have to suck up to any fatuous redneck to feel "approved of".
Try plastic surgery--it costs more in money but at least you aren't selling your soul for a pat on the virtual ass from Dave Nalle.
52 - Dr Dreadful
Nancy, I'll grant that you are 'fair and balanced' in your evisceration of both parties, but that hardly makes you a moderate. Your passionate opinions on several topics - notably El Arbusto and illegal immigration - are well known.
However, I disagree with Dave that BC Politics has been hijacked by extremists: I can only think of three or four fairly regular contributors and/or commenters whom I would term such (Selwyn Duke, Richard Brodie, Mike Green and moonraven). Others, like yourself, Arch Conservative and sometimes zingzing, let their passions run high on occasion but could hardly be called raving.
Nothing wrong with strong, opinionated views, as long as you can back them up with coherent argument and fact. :-)
53 - Dave Nalle
I didn't mean to suggest that the extremists have taken over, just that they have a negative influence.
dave
54 - Dave Nalle
Oh, and any of us can become part of that problem when we resort to jingoistic rhetoric instead of reasoned responses, and even some of us who are otherwise rational do that on occasion.
dave
55 - Adam Ash
Gee Dave:
You've taken my breath away.
You CAN be nice. In fact, you have quite a number of nice bones in you.
Thank you, dude. There may be more appreciation of each other, and each other's POV, than we dare to openly confess.
That said, you say: "You and many like you oppose the war because you ... oppose the idea of the US engaging in a war to spread our values."
Absolutely. You're right. If you have to spread your values by attacking someone who is no threat to you, maybe there is something very wrong with your values.
"Engaging in a war to spread our values ..." Don't you see the utterly bizarre Orwellian contradiction there? You're saying, "hey, man, I'm going to hurt you bad to spread my values."
Dave, you never cease to amaze me -- such a strange blend of reason and total unreason you are.
Adam Ash.
56 - zingzing
"now, time for the rubber glove...bend over and sing "Moon River""
fletch!
57 - zingzing
dave: "Do I look like I'm traumatized?"
frankly, you look like a male version of what's her face from "v for vendetta."
sorry, you just opened yourself up for that one.
58 - moonraven
Negative influence on WHAT, precisely?
And if you tell me the quality of debate on this site I will personally hire someone to slap some sense into you.
You simply want to EXCLUDE opposing views by insulting their makers--by calling them INSANE, extremist, and a host of other negative epithets.
The Totalitarian Texan trips up, again....
59 - zingzing
"Others, like yourself, Arch Conservative and sometimes zingzing, let their passions run high on occasion but could hardly be called raving."
hmmph. i like passion. there's nothing i'm more passionate about. sometimes i rave about it.
60 - Clavos
Doc,
I wouldn't put zingzing in the extremist column.
He (she?) IS passionate, and mostly opposes those of us who are right :>), but comes a lot closer to moderate than extremist.
61 - Adam Ash
Dave:
You take my breath away. You CAN be nice. In fact, there are many nice bones in you. Thank you, dude. I suspect there is a greater appreciation for each other and each other’s POV than we’d dare to openly confess.
That said, you say:
“You and many like you oppose the war because you … oppose the idea of the US engaging in a war to spread our values.”
Exactly. You’re right. When you have to attack someone who’s no threat to you to spread your values, there may be something seriously wrong with your values.
“Engaging in a war to spread our values …” Don’t you see the Orwellian contradiction here? You’re in effect saying, “Hey, man, I’m going to hurt you bad, even cause the death of your women and children, to spread my values.”
Dave, you never cease to amaze me " such a strange blend of reason and unreason you are.
Adam Ash
62 - zingzing
moonraven, stop with the masturbation references. grow up.
clavos... you wonder if i'm female? see moonie? no one cares about gender! clavos and i have been talking, agreeing, disagreeing for probably over a year now and HE DOESN'T KNOW IF I HAVE A DICK OR NOT. he's never asked, he doesn't really care.
and clavos, i don't oppose those that are right (because you're very often not), but i do oppose those who are on the right (but only when they are wrong).
63 - Dr Dreadful
Clav,
...Which is exactly what I said...??
You, of course, mean 'right' as in 'political orientation' - not as in 'correct'.
Like the word 'strike' as in 'to hit someone/thing' vs. as in 'to withhold labor'. Same word, totally different meaning...
64 - Clavos
zing, Doc,
You guys DID see my little emoticon, correct?
65 - moonraven
Zing,
[Edited]
As to YOUR references to your masturbation habits on the Marriage thread--way too much information!
66 - zingzing
yeah, i saw it. but emoticons don't excuse your grevious error! :P
i hate emoticons. ^_^
67 - zingzing
"As to YOUR references to your masturbation habits on the Marriage thread--way too much information!"
they weren't references. they were directly discussing something that each and every one of us do, even if we are married or in a relationship.
but i was more discussing your masturbation habits.
on the toilet? feh. that's nasty, woman.
68 - Humphrey psycholoanalyzes the universe
That was a veritable buffet of topics!
I wouldn't call Obama and Clinton "Barbarian Lite," Iraq has some miles left and those two are already talking about going into Africa to stop genocide. I think to stop genocide we should start a vigorous letter writing campaign. Here is a template we can use:
"Dear Khartoum Government and non-Arab rebels,
What the heck is going on over there? Are the Janjaweed on ganja weed? Are your government brass on grass? Why are your tribes giving off bad vibes? Look, we are all adults here. We demand that you stop all the senseless violence forthwith or else we will shower you with aid packages, deploy weapons of mass guilt, send UN troops to drive around in trucks to look menacing, and bring your postal service to a screeching halt with tons of letters like this. If you do not comply, we will be forced to do the unthinkable: form a committee. We will schedule more meetings than god has ever seen and we won't shut up until you agree with our demands and be peaceful, damn it! Seriously, shape up, you're embarassing Ethiopia.
Sincerely,
The Global Rational Task Force"
There, that'll do 'er.
69 - Dr Dreadful
I saw the emoticon too.
I saw it as an invitation to "please begin taking the piss now". :-D
P.S. I am in contact with Special Agents Mulder and Scully in an attempt to address the deadly invasion threat posed to our planet by those damn dirty Emoticons.
70 - Baronius
Look, it's always easier to spot the nuts on the opposing side, and the bad influence they have. I don't know how many people are driven off by antagonism from either extreme. There are a couple of people around here who could be extreme in the middle. I think that, on average, the most disruptive people are on the left, but there are very few of them.
Adam's articles are really out there, but he's decent in his replies. I like that. I still think he's wrong on nearly everything. My philosophy is taken from Clint in Heartbreak Ridge: you can beat me, you can kill me, just don't bore me.
This board has been odd recently. There's a good number of former regulars (including me) who took some time off, and are now posting more frequently. For better and for worse. I think everyone's adjusting to a different dynamic.
71 - moonraven
Please be advised that I have never posted anything regarding my masturbation habits on this site--or on any other.
72 - Clavos
Humphrey:
LOL! Well done!
73 - gonzo marx
no now Clavos..as much as it was slightly humorous, it's also bullshit stereotyping and exaggeration
a more clever example of, but still bullshit AM shout show tactics...let's not address anything real, but instead make some shit up and generally tar the opposition with it
THAT exact kind of tactic is what turns off folks to political discourse....which is EXACTLY what those how do it desire...fire up the base and turn the moderates off completely, while the opposition is too fucking polite to stand up or kick such idiots in the balls
fuck that, and fuck those who condone it with a rusty chainsaw
Excelsior?
74 - Clavos
Way too serious, gonzo.
It's just funny, of which we get far too little on these threads.
Just like some of your YouTube links are funny, but pointed.
75 - gonzo marx
you call, Clavos...but i've stated my position and Reasoning
yeah, feeling a bit serious at the moment, been standing up in pain since 8pm last night, no hope for change until sometime 2morrow
fucks with my normally sunny disposition some, and erodes what patience i possess for the bullshit
and while i may occasionally hit the Funny, it's the Points held within that are the thing...shall i go all out sarcasm/bullshit to take broad brush potshots at those i feel are incorrect as a group rather than delineating specifics about singular Issues and Individuals?
i am more than capable of it, but i consider such tactics unEthical
and i am breaking our that rusty chainsaw
Excelsior?