The U.S. Attorney General must begin formal investigations of these matters in full view of the American and world public.
Once again the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times have decided the interests of the enemies of the United States are more compelling than the interests of the people of the United States and the elected government which exists to "provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare."…
Article comments
26 - Hoggle
Since we are discussing the LA Times
Summary: In a Los Angeles Times article, Julian Barnes reported that the White House had "accept[ed]" the limitations set out in Sen. John McCain's anti-torture bill over the objections of Vice President Dick Cheney. But Barnes failed to note that President Bush reserved the right to override those restrictions in a signing statement that accompanied the bill -- a practice Bush has used to declare his authority to bypass hundreds of other laws.
the article ends:
Legal scholars say the scope and aggression of Bush's assertions that he can bypass laws represent a concerted effort to expand his power at the expense of Congress, upsetting the balance between the branches of government. The Constitution is clear in assigning to Congress the power to write the laws and to the president a duty ''to take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Bush, however, has repeatedly declared that he does not need to ''execute" a law he believes is unconstitutional.
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It seems to me that if one branch of government is above the law, then all of them are, and the Fourth Estate is an unofficial branch of government, so cannot be guilty of treason.
27 - JustOneMan
"my life is in more danger of ending prematurely through violence now because of the failure of the US government to act decisively to curb the growth of CO2 emissions"
HOGELL...me thinks you are under the spell of Al Egore...check your facts...China, Europe and the 3rd world are emitting more CO2 and methalethalbadshit into the environment than the US...more propaganda
28 - Clavos
By the way, I have expressed my contempt for those who either leaked or conspired to release this and other material to the NY Times
Bird, have you considered the very real possibility that the "leak" came from the administration itself?
29 - gonzo marx
Arch...you say
*you line up all the senators from the past 30 years and see which side has voted more often against military spending...........
then let's see if you're so quick with you're "bullshits"*
actually your going after the wrong thing here, you are confusing budgetary negotiations (in which you are correct) with things like sending soldiers out on a political timetable understaffed, ill equipped and with the number two source of military manpower being the mercenaries of KBR and Bechtel who do NOT fall under our chain of command, or the UCMJ
Arch then sez...
*i believe their intent is not to snoppon people like you or i and disturb our lives.....*
well nwo, here we differ..i'm "conservative" and "libertarian" enough that ANY hint of a Citizen's rights being violated gets me pissed off...and for the highest Authority in our Government to do things with no warrant scares the shit out of me...because i don't believe ANY politicians assertations about Power when there is NO transparency and they have deliberately and completely circumvented the process of checks and balances to do what they are doing
as far as this Administration "trying to get the terrorists"...to my View, the Facts do not bear this out...if so, we would have 250,000 troops in Afghanistan hunting down bin Laden and Mullah Omar and NOT stopping until those two and their henchmen are caught...
THEN we could look around art Iraq/Iran/North Korea and deal with the dangers of one having nuclear weapons, one getting close and one with NONE whatsoever (so much for Condi and her "mushroom cloud" bit of hyperbole)
i do want to say thanks, Arch for keeping it civil and trying to communicate...i personally Appreciate it, even when we do disagree on so many things...this kind of discussion is the root of our Republic and far too often is tossed aside by professional politicians to further their own Cause rather than doing the work of those who Elected them (yes on BOTH sides)
Excelsior?
30 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
BoP,
You finally have put your finger on an issue worth wading in on briefly.
"I believe that the NY Times editorial folks consistantly treat the current administration as though it was the "enemy" that needed to be brought down."
As I understand it, the country (the US) is governed by the oil and banking establishment. This is not a monolithic entity. People like Bush (junior and senior) and fellow vultures are at the oil end, and folks like the WSJ and Grey Lady are at the banking end. These guys do not necessarily get along in peace and harmony and when they fight, that is what you see on the editorial pages and in the various news stories, and particularly, as Gonzo points out, the timing of the stories.
These people are not patriots, as you or I understand the term. Their patriotism goes about two centimeters north of their wallets, and extends two centimeters south as well - just enough for them to maintain a good grip on them, in other words.
The soldiers who sign on the dotted line to defend your country are just so much cannon fodder to these people.
So, the NYT, at the banking end of the establishment, is having a dispute with the oil end of the establishment, and if the security of a few soldiers and operative is daqmaged, so what?
That's my ten agorót (2¼ cents) on the whole thing...
31 - Bird of Paradise
Clavos (28) My contempt for whoever has been leaking this story and others is completely non-partisan.
Ruvy (30) I think you may have vastly overestimated the value of your comment.
32 - gonzo marx
BoP sez...
*Ruvy (30) I think you may have vastly overestimated the value of your comment.*
sez the pot to the kettle
both of your Opinions are worth exactly the same
about one sixth billionths of the world's Opinion
perspective, eh?
Excelsior?
33 - Bliffle
Gee whiz, I thought that Karl Roves escape had declared open season on secrecy.
34 - Nancy
We stand in far more need of having someone in the MSM stand up to the lies, exaggerations, fearmongering, paranoia, & attempts to destroy the constitution & bill of rights by the neocons heading this very dangerous, psychotic administration, than we need protection from any bunch of terrorists. The terrorists can only destroy buildings or some lives; the administration can (& given the chance, will & has) destroy this country & our freedoms.
35 - Richard Marcus
Does anyone aside from me remember the Pentagon Papers, Watergate, My Lai, and a varity of other supposed National Security secrets that the New York Times and The Washington Post revealed to the public.
Isn't if funny how the world didn't end back then and probably won't now. Everyone take a deep breath and find somebody else to bash for a while - sheesh
Richard Marcus
36 - Nancy
In a way it did, in that a corrupt adminstration & a corrupt presidency were brought down, as they should have been. With any luck, eventually this corrupt administration & president will likewise be brought down before they do too much more harm.
37 - Hoggle
JustOnePuppet said
"HOGELL...me thinks you are under the spell of Al Egore...check your facts...China, Europe and the 3rd world are emitting more CO2 and methalethalbadshit into the environment than the US...more propaganda"
Oooo goody, and ad hominem attack. I will immediately change all of my opinions so that people won't hurl insults at me any more!
These are the facts:
Europe: a) 7.448 b) 28.10% c) 12.84% d) 87.15%
USA: a) 19.577 b) 24.59% c) 4.80% d) 94.40%
South America: a) 2.494 b) 3.72% c) 6.85% d) 75.29%
Africa: a) 1.048 b) 3.52% c) 12.83% d) 51.13%
Asia (excluding tigers and Israel): a) 6.892 b) 27.09% c) 56.62% d) 71.67%
Other (Canada, Mexico, Israel, Tigers, Polynesia): a) 5.194 b) 12.98% c) 6.05% d) 80.51%
The figures are:
a) Average CO2 emissions per capita
b) % CO2 of world total (averaged over last 13 years)
c) % population of world total
d) Average Human Development Index
Emissions Source Data
HDI Source Data
So the USA is emitting far more CO2 per capita than any other region of the world, and despite having less than 5% of the world population, is emitting nearly 25% of the CO2.
38 - JustOneMan
Hoagie...Ill admit that your stats are correct although they are from the UN...The US of course is the largest per capita - the bulk of the worls GNP comes from here, etc...But you comveniently leave off from you stats the rate of growth in CO2 emissions..While the US has actual decreased emission per capita (must be from the 2 million illegal mexicans rising bikes on their way to mow lawns and wash dishses?
While the other countries will soon pass us based upon thier growth rates..
1990 - 2000 CO2 Growth Rates
South Korea 69%
China 40%
India 47%
Brazil 64%
US -9%
39 - JustOneMan
Editor why the edit on 22?????
their wasnt any personal attack on anyone???
40 - Hoggle
The data is the CDIAC dataset:
The Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center is the primary global-change data and information analysis center of the U.S. Department of Energy.
That the UN use such data is, perhaps, surprising, but it's not UN data.
The direction of change is important. US total emissions are growing slower than both the economy and the population, so the per-capita rate is going down. However the rest of the developed world (except Australia) has more or less successfully cut back their total below 1990 levels. And in the UK at least, this has been accompanied by strong growth.
A comparison of growth rates with China and India is, I think, invalid, because they are growing from a far lower baseline. It will take a few decades yet before they match the developed world for standards of living. Contraction and convergence is the way to go, and that permits developing countries growth within a sustainable economic framework.
41 - JustOneMan
"China and India is, I think, invalid" hmmmm another version of an inconvenient truth...hmmmmm
if you dont like the numbers say they are `invalid...sort of like eGore
42 - RJ Elliott
"the brains that came up with 9/11 aren't smart enough to cover their traces?"
Well, apparently one of those brilliant minds thought it would be okay go for flying lessons that didn't involve taking off or landing...
Terrorists are stupid and reckless, pretty much by definition. Thank Allah they have the NYT to help them out...
43 - gonzo marx
now now RJ..you know they read the Wall Street Journal to keep an eye on their stock portfolios
Excelsior?
44 - RJ Elliott
"Under the US constitution all men have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
That's from the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution. (And people say Americans are ignorant about other countries!)
45 - RJ Elliott
"It seems to me that if one branch of government is above the law, then all of them are, and the Fourth Estate is an unofficial branch of government, so cannot be guilty of treason."
It seems to me you don't have a clue about how the US federal government operates, or about the obvious distinction between elected officials and some leftist "journalists" ...
46 - JR
Hoggle: A comparison of growth rates with China and India is, I think, invalid, because they are growing from a far lower baseline.
JustOneMan: "China and India is, I think, invalid" hmmmm another version of an inconvenient truth...hmmmmm
if you dont like the numbers say they are `invalid...
Hmmmm, another version of selective reading - if you don't like the claim made in the first half of the sentence, ignore the logic which may back it up in the second half.
47 - RJ Elliott
Hoggle - If you're so worried about CO2 emmissions, you and your fellow travelers could simply stop breathing... ;-P
The fact is that Bush has been one of the most pro-green Presidents in our nation's history. We are moving away from fossil fuels and are rapidly developing alternative energy sources. Bush supports an expansion of nuclear power, which has ZERO CO2 emmissions. Meanwhile, India and Red China are rapidly increasing their level of impact on the environment by using "dirty" fuel sources to power their growing economies. (NB: Kyoto would exempt India and Red China.)
The reason the US uses so much energy "per capita" is because we are such an advanced, prosperous nation. Other countries WISH they were wealthy and successful enough to utilize energy like we do (there aren't too many air conditioners in Rwanda, but not for lack of demand...).
But we are doing our best to use our energy resources in a more environmentally-responsible manner. We are making progress, even with an "evil, rich, white oil-man" in office...
48 - JustOneMan
RJ...Your a GENIUS!!! Imagine ....global warming would be eradicated if liberals would just stop breathing...sounds like a verse from Imagine by Lenon...
You may say I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one!
49 - JustOneMan
RED CROSS ALERT...The US has admitted that it is using an Inconvenient Truth to torture terrorists at Camp Gitmo....
Now that is inhumane!
50 - mike
hoggle, i would like to know how bush administration is responsible for trade deficit? and why you a foreigner concerned about american trade deficit?
51 - Dave Nalle
Tricky, as I'm not american,
My condolences.
but I'll have a go. Under the US constitution all men have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
No, actually, it doesn't. That's the Declaration of Independence which has no legal standing whatsoever in the US. The Constitution says not one word about vague concepts like that. Of course, we certainly still believe in those basic values - they underly all our laws, but they aren't specifically laid out in law.
So even though I'm not a citizen, my right to life etc is protected by your constitution. However, my life is in more danger of ending prematurely through violence now because of the failure of the US government to act decisively to curb the growth of CO2 emissions. From a statutory point of view, this includes the energy bill, which (while making token gestures towards renewables) gave the oil lobby every weakening of restrictions that it asked for.
Where do you live in Europe? How do you feel about your country failing to meet the standards of the Kyoto accords? As for the US curbing CO2 emissions, you need to make a fair comparison. Our CO2 emissions per capita may seem high, but remember that we've got a very poor public transportation system and a widespread population in a very large country which means lots of vehicles travelling long distances. And even so, as JoM points out, we're cutting our emissions substantially more than most nations in the world. The main sources of greenhouse gasses for the next few decades, like Mexico, India and China have been given a free ride on emissions, while here in the US we have strict regulations, even if they are our own and not imposed on us by some treaty, and we're making a lot of progress.
Of course, as I understand it, congress makes the statutes, not the administration, although the president can sponsor bills and has to sign them. He can also sign 'signing declarations' which is an undemocratic document saying how he intends to implement the law, and has been used (with far higher frequency by GWB than any previous president) to effectively amend a law after it has been passed.
It's up to the executive branch how they meet the requirements of the law. As head of that branch the president is entirely within his rights and responsibilities to provide instructions to his underlings.
Amazing to think you guys still believe you live in a democracy.
Thankfully we don't and have never had a 'democracy'. We live in a federal republic. Democracy is nothing but the chaos of mob rule with a nice sounding excuse.
Dave
52 - Bird of Paradise
Dave, Sorry to contradict your otherwise cogent comment but the Declaration of Independence, as one of the "founding documents" DOES have the force, not of law exactly, but of binding legal standing, along with the Articles of Confederation and the letter which accompanied the distribution of the U.S. Constitution.
53 - Hoggle
How amusing - now all non-americans on the internet are 'foreigners'. Is it any wonder so much of the world despises you?
Getting back to the matter in hand. The justification for accusations of treason against these newspapers is that they lent aid to the nation's enemies. As the article in question discusses how ordinary financial transactions of ordinary americans are being examined illegally on the pretext of looking for terrorist funding, it seems to me that the paper is doing its job - protecting the people from the government that is supposed to serve it.
So yes, since the Bush administration regards the people - at least those that disagree with them - as enemies, it is clear where they made the mistake of thinking this was treason, rather than a legitimate act under first ammendment rights.
54 - JustOneMan
Hoagie...Wrong again....
"financial transactions of ordinary americans are being examined illegally"
No where has it been reported that these is illegal activity...in fact similar LEGAL analysis has been used for years in drug and money laundering...
Not even in the "BIBLE OF THE LOONEY LEFT" the New York Times has this program been described as illegal...
Please put down the Howard Dean PlayBook and stay with the facts....
55 - JustOneMan
The Times has been outed as "flip floppers" ---
Post 911 they called for stronger finaccial anti-terror actions - JUST LIKE THE ONES CURRENTLY CONDUCTED BY THE ADMINISTRATION! - The NYT doesnt care about americans safety or catching the bad guys-- Like Dan Rather and the other dinosaurs of the LEFT MSM the have to manufacture the news JUST TO BASH BUSH...
56 - gonzo marx
correction and elucidation: the Program in Question is based on Executive supeona, not a Judges court ordered warrant...
yes, a program to monitor financial transaction, especially of international transactions and accounts with known ties to terrorist organizations has been not only called fro by the Times, but outlined and publicly implemented by the Administration...years ago
the Revelation of the WSJ and NYT reports were about methodology, and investigating if any laws or Rights were broken by generic data mining as opposed to focused warrant based searches
just trying to clarify for the sake of cuttijg out some of the hyperbolic inaccuracies
Excelsior?
57 - JP
Arch, rational people don't need "the left" to tell us America is in a police state. We know we're not, but we're getting closer--and we only need watch recent news to figure that out.
Your diatribes are shrill but quickly wear thin. Democrats indeed have cut military spending in the past, but it's a Republican Congress that's been under-funding soldiers' protective gear and cutting veterans' benefits. Is that how you prefer to "support the troops"?
Since as Dave has pointed out, the program wasn't exactly secret--much like the far right suggests Valerie Plame wasn't covert, I suppose--I'm beginning to wonder if the info wasn't leaked to the Times intentionally, to provide an opportunity for the nationalistic flag-waving and terror-mongering that we're seeing now. Goes along with the flag burning and gay marriage ban to get the base riled up for primary season.
58 - JustOneMan
JP
This PROPAGANDA is directly from Howard Deans play book...."under-funding soldiers' protective gear and cutting veterans' benefits" - More allegations with no facts to back them up!
Hey are you one of those PAID bloggers from Kos? Sure sound like it....