A top British police official calls for an end to the war on drugs, but is anyone listening?
This week Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom, who is responsible for law enforcement in North Wales, made a strong statement against the aggressive anti-drug stance of Prime Minister Gordon Brown, stating that the war on drugs in the UK is “irrational, illogical, immoral and hypocritical" and that "most importantly it doesn’t work.”…
Article comments
26 - STM
None of that is right, Dave. They have a high success rate, and they don't substitute one addiction for another.
I've got a mate who goes whose life is totally transformed. He is a great bloke, formerly a total arsehole.
He is not addicted to AA. He enjoys going a couple of times a week because as he says, if he's not reminded of how bad the bad times were, he forgets about them completely and why he had to stop in the first place. In his case, the past 20 years of not drinking have taken him literally from the gutter to the top of the pile.
Suggestions of AA brainwashing are greeted with: "My brain needed a fu.king wash".
27 - Dave Nalle
Sorry, Stan. The statistics argue otherwise. Here's a really, really detailed page on the subject, but to summarize, there's no statistically signficant difference between longterm success rates with NA/AA and just trying to quit on your own.
Your one guy example is anecdotal and great news for him, but proves nothing. It may work for him, but chances are that he would have gotten sober without it given the same motivation that took him to the meeting and the same amount of time.
As for the addiction, IMO the addiction to god is just about as dangerous as the addiction to alcohol and that's basically what AA is pushing. Some have even argued that a method which requires surrendering your will to god increases the likelihood of relapse because it removes the element of personal responsibility.
Dave
28 - Khaled
and it might be worthwhile looking into the fact that drug taking is symptomatic of a number of other factors; banning/legalising substances is only moving the problem from one side of the legal fence to the other, and in no way addresses the root causes.
29 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Let's take another look at this for a moment from the comments end. Dave has a problem with Twelve Step programs because recovery from the named addiction, understanding and recognizing the power of G-d in the universe, is anathema to him. Stan cites personal knowledge of a mate to counter this.
From my own experience with Twelve Step programs, they have distinct weaknesses to them, but in essence are very sound. They propound a slight variant of the Jewish method of confession of sin in pushing the participant to remember every bad thing they've done and write it down and them be willing to confront that bad thing.
But others can tell a different story.
The fellow I tend to agree with here is Khaled, who seems to echo my points about a society of expoloitation, and Martin Lav, who correctly points out that American (and Israeli) society pushes pills for problems.
Pushing a drug for problem solving and recreation (alcohol) is not smart at all, but that is what these societies do. Maurice, his sons, Stan and his son, are both victims of a society of exploitation that pushes drugs as its solution to the exploitation it imposes.
30 - handyguy
Dave's blanket rejection of AA is disturbing and unnecessary.
I have a friend whose life was definitely saved by 12-step programs. He is certainly no religious nut as a result - to allude to 'god addiction' is really off base. And without an intervention, he would not have chosen treatment. He's sober now for more than 20 years.
When it comes to kicking fatal addictions, we need to be open to whatever works for the individual involved. As usual, Dave finds some statistics that support his position, and then presents the discussion as a done deal. If anyone disagrees, they're just foolish.
I do wonder about AA's allowing its adherents to smoke as many cigarettes as they want, because that addiction is not 'psychoactive' like alcohol and narcotics. I guess they consider it a pragmatic policy.
31 - bliffle
There's an outfit called Rational Recovery (RR) that attempts much the same as AA without the religion and without the group meetings.
I have no idea whether it works or not.
32 - Maurice
handyguy - your comments are right on! I would cut off my right arm if I could be assured that my boys would be drug free for the rest of their lives.
I too have noticed that every person at the NA meetings smokes. It is especially noticable because they even say, "a drug is a drug is a drug".
33 - Martin Lav
Dave as usual an expert on everything, master of none.
Dr. Jung himself saw only one miracle "cure" for the hopeless alcoholic and that was with some sort of divine intervention or spiritual experience. While you believe AA is a God deal, I believe they put their trust in a higher power of their own choosing.
Maurice,
My advice, save your money on the $10k rehab programs and let the Lindsey Lohans of the world piss it away and support your son in his NA program. The 2 bucks is money well spent.
As far as cigarettes and trading one addiction for another, I know of know person that ever got arrested for smoking, or killed someone driving or beat up their wife, or abandon their kids or lost their job.....
Neither do I know of anyone going to an AA meeting after work and not coming home that night. Trading one addiction for another is just a riduculous argument when one looks at the consequences of either one.
34 - Dave Nalle
Martin, I don't profess to be an expert at all. I'm just expressing and opinion and providing information.
Rational Recovery does seem like an appealing alternative if you're one of those who's helped by support groups and a voluntary program.
Martin, much of what you hate about Bush is supposedly a result of his 12 step indoctrination. Doesn't that concern you?
Dave
35 - bliffle
Was Bush a 12 stepper? I thought he just went for a walk with Billy Graham and was cured.
36 - REMF
"I'm just expressing and opinion and providing information."
- Dave Nalle
Quoted for everyones enjoyment.
37 - Martin Lav
To the contrary Nalle, Bush was a 1 stepper.
Put down the drink, pick up the bible.
He's the classic "dry drunk" and that's probably the main reason no one can explain his bizarre behavior.
38 - Maurice
Martin #33
not only are the rehabs expensive there are damn few of them. Even fewer that will take a 15 year old. The recovery rate for youths is very low.
My youngest son will come back home to live around Christmas time. We are going to concentrate on NA and a local church youth group that specializes in recovery. I am atheist/agnostic but willing to try ANYTHING to get my kids off drugs.
39 - Martin Lav
You can be an atheist and so can your son, the key is to believe in a higher power stronger than yourself/himself, for that glimmer of hope will help you to accept things as they are and give you/him power over what you haven't/can't controlled/control.
Save the money, follow the steps and most of all ignore DAVE NALLE.
40 - Khaled
You're right Martin, and that power can be anything that gives you strength.
12 Steps programs have certainly helped countless people, especially those whose lives were nearly destroyed by their addiction. It does beg the question: how do you know you've really recovered if you are constantly in a state of abstaining?
Do you think true recovery should be more about 'I'm now doing something different with my life' rather than 'I am NOT taking drugs, I am NOT taking drugs....' and going to meets for the rest of your life?
41 - Martin Lav
It's called recovery, not recovered. Meaning one must live within a culture of recovery just as one lived within a culture of altered states. Since I believe the last step in the 12 step program is helping others and passing on the message, it seems a different way of life is a much more healthy approach.
42 - Martin Lav
"Taking the money we're spending on the war on drugs and applying it to good rehab programs and a major educational campaign seems like it would be about the best way to go. Imagine what you could get for $50 billion a year as far as drug awareness education goes."
Ever heard of the JUST SAY NO campaign?
Don't think it's been all that effective.
43 - Dave Nalle
I know that I'm apparently not allowed to have an opinion here - according to Martin the great dictator - but I do have a suggestion.
If you want to guide your son towards a higher authority or ideal without having to abandon atheism/agnosticism, you might have him read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. I gave a copy to my eldest daughter and I think it helped her get a grip on some of her issues. The Roman pagan religious elements are largely irrelevant, but the philosophy of self-reliance and responsibility is very relatable even for teens.
Dave
44 - Martin Lav
BULLSHIT ALERT:
"The statistics argue otherwise. Here's a really, really detailed page on the subject, but to summarize, there's no statistically signficant difference between longterm success rates with NA/AA and just trying to quit on your own."
I read this site Dave, sounds like this guys got some sort of personal agenda against AA. For you to cite him as a reference (the author is NOT identified by the way) is quite a leap.
Do you not normally check out your references?
You are a fraud and a phony sir and I would suggest that you retract your statement to Maurice who was asking for help for a very serious problem.
To steer him away from a 12 step non-profit organization, is highly questionable on your part and then to cite a EXTREMIST CONSPIRACY THEORIST is unconscionable.
45 - Dave Nalle
No, I agree, Martin. The guy is an anti AA fanatic. But at the same time he does bring up just about every possible piece of relevant information against AA. It's still useful resource if you want to get the negatives on AA.
He's basically against the religious aspects of AA because he does make some positive comments about RR and similar programs.
And I'm sorry I don't believe in 12 step programs. I've seen them fail too many times to give them much credit.
Dave
46 - Martin Lav
In response to comment #45: SHAME ON YOU
Your the one that linked to this "fanatics" web-site.
If this is any indication of your standard referencing that I would question all your statements.
To cite this "fanatics" figures, and then agree that he is a "anti-AA fanatic" when you're using his statistics to support your claims, seems blatantly wrong to me. Especially since others had to point it out.
I don't think it's appropriate for you to influence a comments poster for or against anything that you know nothing about, especially when that commenter was asking for help for his son.
It's extremely unprofessional and in my opinion immoral.
Shame on you!
47 - Dave Nalle
Martin, I'm an anti-AA fanatic too. And if a point is worth making why not make it with overkill. As I said before, that site is factual and it's full of information. Yes, the author is clearly obsessed, but why not use the work that his obsession drove him to in order to inform yourself?
Dave
48 - Martin Lav
Dave,
Clearly many millions of people have been helped by AA. Many commenter's have also cited success with it's 12 steps that they've seen in friends and family. Many, many organizations have adopted their program. (overeaters, gamblers, excessive bloggers)
all with much success. So when a concerned commenter asks for help and you so casually and frivolously denounce AA and then link to the rantings of an apparent lunatic, I would say that that is chiefly irresponsible.
While you can arbitrarily espouse your opinions on such silly nonsense as politics and the like, I would think that you would have enough sense and concern to flippantly remark on a subject you clearly know nothing about that to some people is a matter of life and death.
Stand down.
49 - STM
Just out of interest Dave, are you a non-drinker??
Did you perhaps go to AA briefly, or have someone suggest such a thing, at some stage and find it not to your liking?
Not a put down mate, as that's quite a common thing in my experience. And you are right of course - plenty of people do stop drinking or taking drugs, or stop doing either excessively, without 12-step programs. Just wondering :)
But you seem very anti old boy, and vehemently so, which seems unusual for someone who wouldn't have any first-hand knowledge of the thing.
You don't have to answer this, of course, if you think it might (or might not) incriminate you ...
50 - Khaled
Maurice: I don't know if you've heard of Human Givens therapy, they have a very balanced and sensible approach to addictions, and have a deep understanding of how the brain works especially where addictions are concerned. They are used more and more by the NHS and have a very good success rate. They look at the person as a whole and approach it in a practical way. I don't want to post any links here so just do a search for Human Givens and you can find out more there.
51 - Maurice
Khaled - thanks for the heads up. They have some interesting theories and I will persue them. The relationship between daytime worry and slow wave sleep strikes a resonance with me.
Dave - I will check out Meditations. My son tried reading a book on Taoism recommended by his psychologist and didn't make it very far. I have heard over and over that only the addict can help himself. Most of the time it requires them to hit bottom. They all have a different bottom.
Martin thanks for your advice. Don't worry about me being overly persuaded by Dave. I like Dave and read all his articles. I am open to any solution at this point whether it involves God/Higher Power/12 steps/more twinkies....
52 - Dave Nalle
Maurice, if God and 12 steps will get him straightened out then that's fantastic. But I do think you're dead on that ultimately the addict has to do most of the work himself. I think kids are too young and inexperienced in a lot of cases to realize how badly they are screwing up their lives. I know a lot of folks who went off the rails as teens and then basically spent a decade wasted before finally pulling themselves together and getting back on track. It's distressingly common, and it's particularly tragic if they produce kids in the process, which often seems to be the case. I know more than a few grandparents raising the kids of their own messed up kids. Not that this has anything to do with your situation.
Dave