Will we hear the strains of "Moscow Nights" over the credits when the administration makes ABC their propaganda wing on Thursday?
Drawing on the concept of the "Four Estates" of Republican France, it has been popular to call the press the "Fourth Estate," a non-governmental entity whose independence made it one of the pillars which supported liberty, and an important check on the power of government. In a free press the people had a way to express their concerns about government and a relatively unbiased advocate for truth independent of the self-serving assertions of political parties and leaders. In America that great tradition of a free press which truly stood out as a Fourth Estate began with the publication of Publick Occurances in 1690 and lasted for over 300 years before dying with a whimper this Wednesday at the hands of ABC News.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - El Bicho
Lost is a good show, even though I don't believe they will tie it up satisfactorily next season. The Goode Family is funny, although its rating don't bode well for it to complete the first season. It's no surprise Internet nerds don't follow sports.
27 - Cindy
B,
I know it's bad from listening to what people at BC say about it. Wait....you mean they don't even watch it???
:-)
(some things you just know B, like you know sex is good and diets aren't--don't have to actually have sex or be on a diet to know)
28 - Deano
I'm curious to know why 8 years of FoxNews openly, uncritically and relentlessly parroting Republican talking points seems to have warrented no brilliantly incisive articles dissecting the death and/or takeover of the free press by Dave.
Just asking.
29 - Dr Dreadful
there really is a relevant concern about what happens when the press gives up its watchdog role to become a lapdog
Agreed, but it had already rolled over to have its tummy tickled by the Bush White House instead of nailing that administration to the wall over its more egregious fuck-ups and abuses of power. It could be argued that the MSM began to resemble deceased livestock even before that.
30 - Dr Dreadful
When, for instance, was the last time you saw an investigative documentary on a channel other than PBS about anything more incisive than the latest serial killer/child molester or Something Nasty In The Water?
31 - Bliffle
Good point, DD.
32 - Dr Dreadful
Deano @ #28:
They're still openly, uncritically and relentlessly pandering Republican talking points. Except now they have a bigger target.
I was at the gym last night, trying to avoid watching the subtitled Hannity as he broke into one of his regular whines to report on the train crash in DC, and thinking: hmm... less than 24 hours before he or one of the other Fox pundits finds a way to blame it on Obama?
33 - Cindy
6
I have been seeing more TV on the internet. Supposedly in the works--free TV that will play on a TV set for watching a commercial before and after the show. Pay a little for no commercials.
Dave,
Calling everyone a commie (though perhaps fun) isn't putting any points in your credibility column.
34 - Baronius
Dread, I have no idea what you think you remember, but the mainstream press hammered the Bush administration constantly.
35 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave - your willful blindness is showing.
"A marginal network like ABC" This is based on...what? According to the numbers (I know, you don't like using facts), CBS is in first place, and Fox was in second...with less than 1.2 percent higher total viewership than third-place ABC.
But since ABC says or does something you don't like, they're 'marginal'. Try using facts, please - they're real eye-openers.
You also said, "The Obama administration has made state-corporatism a cornerstone of its economic plans, taking over businesses, forcing them into bankruptcy and handing out the spoils to their cronies and allies."
Okay, WHAT businesses has OBAMA 'taken over' and 'forced into bankruptcy'? The banks, perhaps, like Chase (like several) which has already paid off ALL TARP loans from the government?
You said, "But at least in the financial and auto industries there was some effort to resist, and many of those companies are still trying to buy back their freedom."
Which was the intention all along! Dave, are you so blinded that you think that if the government REALLY wanted to keep control of a business, that it couldn't do so? That was the intention of the FIRST bailout of Chysler and the loans to financially-strapped NYC, both of which
36 - Glenn Contrarian
AARGH!
Is there a word limit to comments?
Because half my comment was chopped, wherein I pointed out how Reagan supported the bailout of Chrysler and NYC, and how it is hypocritical to castigate ABC for doing for a few hours what Fox did 24/7 for eight years!!!
Chrysler is now OUT of Chapter 11 bankruptcy...but if the conservatives had had their way, there would have been NO BAILOUT, which means that Chrysler and GM would have BOTH gone down the tubes - and how many dealerships would have closed then?
Dave - willya PLEASE fact-check your statements before you post?
37 - Dr Dreadful
the mainstream press hammered the Bush administration constantly.
No, they hit it with teddy bears.
38 - Jeannie Danna
They try to change Our minds by "propaganda," but We try to change Their minds by "information." -Sidney Harris
I wrote a piece a few weeks ago disparaging the press, but it was totally shot down...true the essay sucked, but I tried to write it anyway.
If I was a conservative or republican would my view have been nurtured more?
39 - Jeannie Danna
There really is a relevant concern about what happens when the press gives up its watchdog role to become a lapdog.
Revisionist comment here!
Where were they during the last Eight years?
Oh that's right, they weren't even allowed in the White House during the Bush-Cheney admin. Unless they worked for FOX.
40 - STM
I think it's fantastic that ABC has decided to devote so much air time to let Americans know what they'll be getting with their healthcare package.
Such an issue of vital importance needs to be aired, debated, analysed, etc.
It's just a great gesture to the American people so they know about their upcoming universal health care package, and in no way signals the death of the fourth estate.
See, this is what the fourth estate does.
Hope your health package is liked by all.
41 - STM
DD: "I was at the gym last night, trying to avoid watching the subtitled Hannity"
Why subtitled Doc??
Is that for Spanish-speaking viewers?
I think that's a fantastic thing and a real indication of how multicutural America has become.
Legions of Spanish speakers right across the south and west ... almost a first language now in many areas.
Almost certainly this will happen: the US will be a bi-lingual country, like Canada, where everything has to be done officially and legally in two languages.
Of course, with so many Spanish speakers in the hemisphere, officially calling it Estados Unidos can only strenghten perceptions among them that America is the place to be and will encourage more immigration from all over south and central America.
42 - Baronius
Dread, we can agree that they're lousy at their jobs. But they did their petty little best to tear down Bush.
43 - Baronius
Jeannie, you realize that your comment about network access to the Bush administration is factually incorrect, right?
STM, a lot of gyms run their TV's with the sound off, with captioning on.
44 - Clavos
Why subtitled Doc??
I'm betting he meant closed captioned, Stan. They often turn off the sound on TVs in public places and turn on the closed captioning so you can tell what's going on without the cacophony.
Personally, I think TV should be banned altogether from public places.
45 - STM
Ah, Clav, now I see ... closed captions, not Spanish subtitles.
I thought someone would come out spitting at that comment ... but alas, no takers :)
What, am I too obvious???
46 - mar k
Surfer dude - you haven't watched much Hannity have you? The subtitles are required to show the translation of his language into human.
47 - mar k
(always ready to oblige)
48 - Clavos
...or something.
Do you play horseshoes?
49 - Jeannie Danna
Baronius, You mean this kind of access?
50 - Jeannie Danna
Well I am going to say "good night all:)"
51 - Dave Nalle
however, i also see the point in keeping the american people informed, as long as this is not a propaganda thing. of course, dave, you'll never know. i'll never know either. i don't have a tv. but such is life.
Actually, I normally DO watch network TV from time to time, including the news. But this week I'm out of town on vacation with no TV so ironically I won't be watching this particular debacle.
I'm curious to know why 8 years of FoxNews openly, uncritically and relentlessly parroting Republican talking points seems to have warrented no brilliantly incisive articles dissecting the death and/or takeover of the free press by Dave.
Deano, I actually wrote several articles critical of FoxNews, but the reason they are different from this is that they remained a commercial network through all of this, did not ban advertising contrary to their general politics, and did not allow the administration to actively control their content, all of which ABC is doing. Fox may have been sympathetic and supportive with Bush, but they weren't actually working for him -- in fact, many of their comentators were far from Bush supporters even if they were Republican or right wing.
But since ABC says or does something you don't like, they're 'marginal'. Try using facts, please - they're real eye-openers.
It's an opinion, Glenn. They offer less original, scripted programming than any other broadcast network and their news coverage is just lame in comparison to CBS or NBC or any of the 24 hour news networks. IMO they are going down fast. They haven't diversified like the other networks, have no cable presence and their audience consists entirely of soccer moms. Marginal, IMO.
As for Obama's nationalization efforts, how about basically handing over control of the auto companies to his union cronies? He's also made very clear that even if he lets companies pay off TARP loans the government is going to retain some interest in those companies. It's chiling.
Stan. Have you looked at Obama's plan? I'd much rather have something like what you have down there in Oz.
Dave
52 - Dave Nalle
Mark, even with subtitles Hannitty still makes no sense.
Dave
53 - STM
Dave: "Stan. Have you looked at Obama's plan? I'd much rather have something like what you have down there in Oz."
It looks to me like a kind of stop-gap measure unlikely to please anyone - a UHC designed by a committee ... which means, sadly, it'll probably have two humps.
54 - STM
Believe it or not, we do get Hannity here.
Fox is one of the news stations I get on cable ... live from the US, too.
However, of the cable news channels, I prefer the SkyNews channels (UK, Australia, and New Zealand), CNN or the BBC.
I go with the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) for good local and international coverage, as they have a decent hard-news focus on the Asia-Pacific region and also the US, Europe and the middle-east.
Hannity just doesn't do it for me.
Whatever happened to his mate Colmes, who seemed to provide at least a bit of the balance in the hilarious "fair and balanced" promise, when he was allowed to get a word in edgeways??
Where did he go?
55 - STM
One of the most hilarious interviews I've ever seen was on Fox and Friends a couple of years back ...
The three of them were interviewing a British diplomat, probably about the middle-east or perhaps Zimbabwe if my memory serves correctly.
Let's say the guy's name was Sir John Smith (I can't remember what it actually was).
When someone's a Sir, you call him by his title and his first name: in this case, Sir John.
But right through the interview, they were calling him Sir Smith :)
Because he's a Pom and didn't want to offend, he kept the stiff upper lip and didn't say anything.
He kind of winced a bit the first time, then merrily went along with it ... just cracked on, as the Poms would say.
At the the end, the tall blond guy signed off the ivu with: "That was Sir Smith, of the British Institute for As Peacful as Possible Reconciliation with Former African Colonies Struggling to Get By" ... or something like that.
On a serious note, it's the equivalent of a UK interviwer calling Ted Kennedy "Senator Ted" all the way through an interview.
It was really funny, though.
At least it gave me something to giggle about in amongst the rest of the TV dribble.
56 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
There's a saying in the Navy - probably in the civilian world too, but it saves lives: "Don't assume, because it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'."
Yeah, that's trite and rather juvenile, but it's got a serious purpose, because when one makes a practice of NOT assuming that what one 'just knows' is factual, of NOT assuming that what one's 'trusted friend' says is factual, one's own illusions have a tendency to fall. I was once a Republican, remember....
You (and the rest of the conservatives) are ASSUMING that everything ABC will do on a program that has NOT YET AIRED will be an 'infomercial' for Obama's health care plan. How about listening to the OTHER side of the story from the president of ABC?
"Unfortunately, you have found it appropriate to criticize a program that has not yet aired. Contrary to your assertions, this will not be "slanted" in any way - much less a "day-long infomercial" or "in-kind free advertising" as you allege. It will be a thoughtful, respectful, and probing discussion of some of the issues raised by the calls for health-care reform. We will include a variety of perspectives coming from private individuals asking the President questions and taking issue with him, as they see fit. We have heard already at some length (on ABC News and other outlets) from politicians and professional health care lobbyists, and there will be ample time to hear from them throughout the policy debate. I can see no reason why we should not hear tomorrow instead from some of the Americans most directly affected by the plans being discussed."
Did you read that, Dave? We've ALREADY heard from politicians and pundits on BOTH sides, oh yes we have! But by disallowing political advertising from BOTH sides during the program, ABC is somehow selling out?
You ASSUMED as fact what you were hearing from the conservative anti-anything-Obama crowd. If you want to trust them, go ahead - just remember what a great president once said: "Trust, but verify." He also said "Facts are stubborn things."
57 - Glenn Contrarian
Just heard on ABC's Good Morning America - tonight the ones asking questions will be a group of 140 or so from across the nation, including doctors, businessmen, insurance executives.
'Insurance executives'? Gee, could this mean we might actually have a dialogue instead of what the conservatives KNOW will be an 'infomercial'? I know, I know, it's PREPOSTEROUS to think that Fox news and the conservative pundits might actually be wrong about something, but...
...let's do what Ronnie said - "Trust, but VERIFY".
We'll find out! I've got my DVR programmed....
58 - Dave Nalle
You (and the rest of the conservatives) are ASSUMING that everything ABC will do on a program that has NOT YET AIRED will be an 'infomercial' for Obama's health care plan. How about listening to the OTHER side of the story from the president of ABC?
I'm just basing that conclusion on what ABC itself has said, including their statement that they will be the ones controlling the questions asked and that they will not allow any opposing advertising during the programming.
Just heard on ABC's Good Morning America - tonight the ones asking questions will be a group of 140 or so from across the nation, including doctors, businessmen, insurance executives.
So? The insurance companies are on board for this plan, because it amounts to free revenue for them as the government takes our money and gives it to them by force. Plenty of businessmen will be for it too, because they will no longer have to pay for insurance for their workers. I don't see any opposing voices in that list. Where are the consumer advocates, taxpayers and regular citizens?
Sadly I'm going to have to watch it online at an internet cafe since I can't get TV here.
Dave
59 - roger nowosielski
"they will not allow any opposing advertising during the programming."
In all fairness, Dave, advertising, whether pro or con, should not be a part of any serious debate.
60 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
Why don't you WATCH the show and see if there are 'regular citizens' or not, rather than just ASSUMING there won't be any?
61 - Baronius
Jeannie, I meant that over eight years, the Bush administration gave hundreds of interviews, press conferences, and press briefings to dozens and dozens of news outlets.
62 - Baronius
A general note to the operators of this site: We users have been patient, but there's a limit to the number of crashes and lost messages that we can endure without looking elsewhere. If you're not interested in maintaining the site, just tell us. Every site eventually shuts down. But the current level of performance is not sufficient for a successful site. To steal a line from your comment policy, we know a lack of technical support when we see it.
63 - roger nowosielski
I do concur.
At the very least, Baronius, we should be made aware of what progress to expect. But perhaps we the users are not as important as we believe ourselves to be, in terms of bringing in the revenues and the like. Perhaps BC is doing us a favor by allowing us to participate.
Where else would you go if BC closes?
64 - roger nowosielski
The prison analogy doesn't hold, because if everyone is a prisoner, then no one is. For any term to have a meaning, there's got to be a viable contrast as regards its absence or negation. So in order to make the notion of everyone's enslavement by a society intelligible, one has got to be able to present a viable model whereby individuals at large (and not just some isolated pockets of individuals) can co-exist and function without there being any social structure, hierarchy and social arrangements. In short, one has to provide a viable model of an anarchistic society and eventually, an anarchistic world that would be able to sustain itself thus in the long run.
And no, I don't care to consider the subject any longer.
65 - Dr Dreadful
Whatever happened to his mate Colmes, who seemed to provide at least a bit of the balance in the hilarious "fair and balanced" promise, when he was allowed to get a word in edgeways??
I think he got fed up with being the liberal fall guy. The show was set up so that Hannity would always get the last word.
Colmes still has his own show on Fox News Radio, I believe, and pops up on Fox as a guest occasionally, but I haven't heard whether or not he has a new regular TV gig.
66 - roger nowosielski
I think you posted this on the wrong thread, Dreadful, unless you want to get into a heated debate concerning the virtues of anarchism.
67 - roger nowosielski
Please ignore #66/67. I was the one who posted on the wrong thread.
68 - Dr Dreadful
Roger,
I was responding to STM's #54. I had no idea that this was now a private chatroom.
69 - Christopher Rose
Baronius, everybody is hacked off to the max about the ongoing site issues. There is a list of known bugs and desired enhancements, which both grows and shrinks with a frustrating regularity.
Actually, you don't know a lack of technical support when you experience problems.
If there is a specific issue you are having and would like to know if it is a known unknown or an unknown unknown, please make the effort to report it to somebody rather than complaining in the comments space where I may be the only editor that sees it.
I have requested a status update be sent to our registered writers when the techheads can get their heads out of the BC bonnet (hood to you Seppos), although they all do have the ability to contact any editor should they care to. Right, Roger?
70 - roger nowosielski
No problem, Chris - just couldn't help jumping in. BTW, interesting use of the term "bonnet."
71 - roger nowosielski
Dreadful,
You're missing the point. I posted on the wrong thread, and when I saw your post on an entirely different subject, I made the comment. See my #67.
72 - STM
Roger (#66): "I think you posted this on the wrong thread, Dreadful, unless you want to get into a heated debate concerning the virtues of anarchism."
Roger (#67): Please ignore #66/67. I was the one who posted on the wrong thread."
Lol. This is like an episode of Seinfeld.
BTW, bonnet and hood, same meaning. Boot = trunk. Only place that uses the terms hood and trunk in the English-speaking world is North America.
And since the automobile, or car, is a European invention, I say bragging rights means the Queen's English terms are the correct ones.
73 - STM
Baron: "I meant that over eight years, the Bush administration gave hundreds of interviews, press conferences, and press briefings to dozens and dozens of news outlets"
And lied its bloody head off in most.
74 - Glenn Contrarian
So...comments on the communist socialist nazi fear-mongering hate-fest (at least in conservative eyes) that was the ABC special last night?
75 - Glenn Contrarian
The silence is...deafening.
I watched it, and it was thrilling watching a man able to take on all questions by himself with nothing and no one to back him up - even when some of the questions were obviously Republican talking points - and show time and time and time again in DETAILED explanations how health care reform isn't just a good thing, but is CRUCIAL to America's future.
And for the life of me, I can't think of any other president who has ever had that kind of capability.