Incredible. Absolutely freaking incredible.
Today: "In my long experience in Washington, few matters have inspired so much contrived indignation and phony moralizing as the interrogation methods applied to a few captured terrorists."
Taken at face value, this statement shows that Cheney believes that American senators and representatives are not truly offended at all that we as a country tortured people. He apparently believes that the outrage against torture is nothing more than political posturing.
Nothing, absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. To this particular retired Navy man, Cheney - like Rumsfeld, Limbaugh, and Bush (who served only in a 'boutique squadron' and never left the States during his entire tour of duty) is nothing more than another chickenhawk, someone who has never really served in the military but is absolutely sure that he knows what the military is all about and is all too eager to send them in harm's way.
A simple search on Google will find that the American government was not the first to coin the phrase 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'. No, that particular distinction belongs to the Nazis, as is made clear in articles from The Atlantic and Harper's. In fact, the article in The Atlantic makes clear that the Bush Administration's EIT program differed from the Nazi EIT program only in that the Nazis seemed to provide more oversight and used methods less outrageous than those of the Bush Administration.
Don't get me wrong - I'm only referring to the Enhanced Interrogation Technique programs of the Nazis and the Bush Administration, and I'm certainly not comparing the Bush administration to the Nazis. I'm only pointing out that this ONE program bears an uncomfortably close resemblance to that used by the Nazis, only ours was worse.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Mongo
Fully agree and thank you. Torture is bullshit. It will never work for the United States, only serves to give US detractors ammo because it paints Americans as hypocrites.
2 - Clavos
You say:
I figure I'm probably wrong about that, though - there's GOT to be someone from the military, FBI, or CIA somewhere who's got some experience with EIT who is willing to tell just how valuable they were to America's security. I haven't seen them yet.
Mr. Cheney asserts that there are CIA memos which conclusively prove the value of EIT, and he has repeatedly challenged the Administration to release those memos. The Obama lack of response to Mr. Cheney's challenges creates a strong suspicion that Mr. Cheney is right.
Pejman Yousefzadeh, a Senior Editor of The New Ledger writes in an article for CBS News titled "D.C. Smackdown: Advantage Cheney" that while "[He] write[s] as one who believes that waterboarding is counterproductive at best, and torture at worst. [He] write[s] as one who believes that torture rarely is justified."
He nonetheless makes the point:
"It seems as if the Obama Administration is incredibly capricious about the evidence it chooses to release, and the evidence it chooses to keep under wraps. This capriciousness is puzzling; by calling for the release of memos detailing how successful enhanced interrogation might have been, Vice President Cheney is, in effect, inviting the Obama Administration to call shenanigans on his arguments. If enhanced interrogation was unsuccessful, the Obama Administration can show it through those memos and prove to the public that Dick Cheney was wrong.
Of course, it is entirely possible that the Obama Administration is refusing to release those memos because Dick Cheney was right. If so, the Administration's refusal to take up the Cheney challenge, while self-righteously claiming that Dick Cheney is wrong, is dishonest in the extreme. And if that dishonesty translates itself into policy, it will be to the detriment of us all."
It's an important point, and it behooves the Obama Administration to accept Cheney's challenges, release the memos and respond appropriately to their content.
If he continues to stonewall this issue, Obama stands to lose yet another measure of his rapidly dwindling credibility with the American public.
3 - Vishal
Great quote at the end.
4 - Dave Nalle
Wow, I thought we had finally put this kind of lame bullshit behind us, but apparently not.
Dave
5 - Dave Nalle
the article in The Atlantic makes clear that the Bush Administration's EIT program differed from the Nazi EIT program only in that the Nazis seemed to provide more oversight and used methods less outrageous than those of the Bush Administration.
And in the fact that the Nazis tortured thousands for political reasons and the US tortured only 3 and that because they actually had information on immediate threats to security.
But don't let me ruin your hate parade with some truth.
Carry on.
Dave
6 - roger nowosielski
Thanks guys, #2 & #4, for letting me sweat while being attacked by a pack of vicious dogs from both the intolerant left and equally rigid right.
But it looks like principles don't really matter to either of you; and that the only thing that rouses you to any kind of action, verbal or otherwise, is when your favorite politician is being attacked. And if that ain't the filthiest and the nastiest in partisanship, nothing is.
So thanks, again, for your show of courage and for opening my eyes. You should be proud of yourselves.
7 - Dave Nalle
Roger, principles matter to me, but this article is just more of the same old pointless attacks and has nothing to do with principle.
Dave
8 - Christopher Rose
Roger, what exactly are you on about? Your #6 was your first comment here, so how are you "being attacked by a pack of vicious dogs from both the intolerant left and equally rigid right"?
Dave, I don't get your point about "pointless attacks" as you do that all the time to people who have different opinions to you. Is that some kind of "principle" I've not yet encountered?
Principles are just like any other dogma, secular or not, they are only useful up to a point.
9 - Jordan Richardson
Wow, I thought we had finally put this kind of lame bullshit behind us, but apparently not.
So did I. Unfortunately the Dark Lord's speaking tour marches on.
10 - Jeannie Danna
I wish someone would just come out and say it. "Dick Cheney was the President of the United States for eight years,he just didn't have the balls to admit it!"
I think everyone here is missing the original point! They tortured people so they could justify going into Iraq for the OIL!
Furthermore, Saddam wasn't relieved of hie "post" because he was part of "the axis of evil" or that he had "known ties to Mideast terrorists" he was overthrown because he was UNDERCUTTING OPEC and selling oil CHEAP! Cheney's God is money and his church is the OIL INDUSTRY!
11 - Jeannie Danna
Jordan, is your comment thread broken? I couldn't see any words..
12 - Jordan Richardson
Apparently it thinks I wrote it in transparent font. Weird.
Try this again:
the simple fact is that what Cheney and co did to a couple of terrorist most likely saved the lives of at least a handful of American citizens
Maybe, at best. It's probably more likely that what Cheney and Co. did was create more than a handful of fresh new terrorists with vigorous hate hard-ons for America.
13 - Jordan Richardson
Oh, by the way Jeannie, thank you for the comment on my music review.
I'm about as far from conservative as possible (I think). But I'm more than willing to ensure that Obama and anyone else receives a fair shake of the criticism, especially when they simply reinstate failed policies that continue to create bad will around the world and threaten the cause for peace.
Yeah, I'm a crazy idealist. Been called worse.
14 - roger nowosielski
(#8) - a point of clarification:
The reference was to another thread, and they both knew it; the principle concerned personal integrity, hardly a matter of convenience.
The first had an excuse because he was laboring under the impression that I insulted him (despite my explanation); the second had none.
15 - Jeannie Danna
I know I am a nut about President Obama(I hate it when people call him Mr.) even if they think he's an ass or whatever their real "unspoken problem" is with our President today, he still deserves respect and I don't think the White House is being secretly run by Vice-President Biden either...unlike the last administration.
Here is a slogan
"When a law abiding citizen is afraid of their own country,what does that say about their present administration? I am not afraid anymore.."
16 - Dave Nalle
What this post shows is the continuing desperation of the left to talk about anything but the failures of the Obama administration and the absolutely loony stuff coming out of congress. Attacking the Bush administration and Cheney is a transparent effort to redirect attention and it's becoming increasingly creepy and pathetic.
Dave
17 - Jeannie Danna
Dave, Look- [And in the fact that the Nazis tortured thousands for political reasons and the US tortured only 3 and that because they actually had information on immediate threats to security.] This is bullshit isn't it?
Are you justifying Hitler or Cheney! They will both be remembered as 'Sick individuals."
Until the Dick-Cheney re-write history tour I didn't even know what his voice sounded like! and we can all read body language can't we? Look at his hunched shoulders and the way he postures towards the interviewers leaning forward and almost falling out of his seat. I am truly surprised that he has not had another coronary by now!
18 - Jeannie Danna
And also if my punctuation or spelling is not PERFICT :) too bad..You can still understand my content can't cha?
19 - Jordan Richardson
Dave,
What do you propose "the left" or the media do when Cheney wanders out of his retirement home and offers up this speeches? Surely "the right" didn't ignore Al Gore when he trotted around the country talking about global warming.
This has nothing to do with left or right nonsense, Dave, and everything to do with a bitter old man on a bender cruising through every media outlet and organization that will let him deliver yet another "speech." Why should writers not call attention to it and expose his content for what it really is?
If Cheney doesn't want to be addressed by the left or the media, perhaps he should emulate the former President and get to stepping. In terms of the real issues, there's been ample discussion about Obama's problems with the torture issue and with military commissions. And an awful lot of it has come from "the left."
20 - Jordan Richardson
I am truly surprised that he has not had another coronary by now!
His robotic heart is standing up pretty well, isn't it?
21 - Jeannie Danna
Jordan :)
I second your #20 comment! Can we retweet here?
22 - roger nowosielski
Don't you have anything good to say about Obama administration? Don't you think, for example, that the crackdown on the credit companies, requiring the kind of transparency not available to consumers before, is a good thing?
What exact failures do you have in mind? Closing the Gitmo? Resuming the Middle East peace process? It would help not to speak in generalities.
Jordan,
Cheney and company have no choice but to speak to presumed advantages of EIT to diffuse the charges of the Bush administration wrongdoings. It's still far from a resolved issue.
23 - Jeannie Danna
I am truly surprised that he has not had another coronary by now!
His robotic heart is standing up pretty well, isn't it?
a blended thought! :)
24 - Andy Marsh
You two should get a room!
25 - Cindy
Mr. Cheney asserts that there are CIA memos which conclusively prove the value of EIT, and he has repeatedly challenged the Administration to release those memos. The Obama lack of response to Mr. Cheney's challenges creates a strong suspicion that Mr. Cheney is right.
Only to people who won't acknowledge that Cheney has an agenda. His agenda is to defend torture. It's clear from his propaganda about it and his actions to meddle in independent investigations.
There is plenty of information available. I have put the article and video that describes this and the CIA Inspector General report several times in the last months.
CIA Inspector General: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks on America
" 'It is difficult to quantify with confidence and precision the effectiveness of the program," Steven G. Bradbury, then the Justice Department's principal deputy assistant attorney general, wrote in a May 30, 2005, memo to CIA General Counsel John Rizzo, one of four released last week by the Obama administration.
"As the IG Report notes, it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks.
(snip)
Nevertheless, Bradbury concluded in his May 2005 memos that the program had been effective, although the still secret reports by Inspector General John Helgerson had been disseminated a full year earlier."
We have people like Bradbury here reading from the IG report which says we cannot conclude something--and based on this report Bradbury then DOES conclude that the program is effective?
How and why does this happen? I think we all know.
It is pretty clear that if one wants to support what was done, one will simply ignore any evidence that doesn't fit with that opinion. It's not like there isn't enough information to anyone to minimally think CHENEY HAS AN AGENDA. Any reasonable person would not be taking Cheney's word for anything.
The Inspector General of the CIA investigated for crying out loud. Saw everything and made a statement that no evidence supports torture! Cheney tried to meddle with that investigation at the time.
Cheney Intervened in CIA Inspector General's Torture Probe
"Cheney’s “reaction to this first, carefully documented in-house study concluding that the CIA’s secret program was most likely criminal was to summon the Inspector General to his office for a private chat,” Mayer wrote. “The Inspector General is supposed to function as an independent overseer, free from political pressure, but Cheney summoned the CIA Inspector General more than once to his office.
“Cheney loomed over everything,” the former CIA officer told Mayer. “The whole IG’s office was completely politicized. They were working hand in glove with the White House.”