American Theocracy, ever looming these past three decades attempts to rewrite U.S. history, with the aid of Congress.
In the January 28th edition of The Nation, Chris Hedges, former Middle East bureau chief for the New York Times and now senior fellow at The Nation Institute reports on James “Randy” Forbes, (R-VA).…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Baritone
Irene,
Of course, the point I was making with Ruvy is that no god, nor religion sowed the seeds of knowledge or civilization. It was, rather, man, learning through painstaking trial and a huge amount of error (still ongoing.) There is no need to look for other-worldly influence.
I suppose the concept of mono-theism did by fits and starts evolve out of poly-theistic traditions. At some point somebody looked up at, perhaps the sun and upon hearing and seeing nothing even remotely as powerful had an epiphany. Eureka! One god. One source.
As was so derisively dismissed above by someone, atheists just took it one more step, deleted one more god.
B-tone
27 - Dr Dreadful
Baritone--one of these days I think it would be interesting to have a discussion about the origins of religion: did polytheism really evolve into monotheism?...
Well, I'm not Baritone so excuse me for butting in, but now's as good a time as any, especially on a thread attached to an article entitled The Beginnings of American Theocracy.
I don't think the one evolved from the other: polytheism is alive and flourishing alongside the major monotheistic religions today. I would hazard a guess that one reason for the popularity of Christianity and Islam may be that one god is far easier to keep track of than thousands!
Seriously, the prevalence of modern monotheism can be attributed to the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire in 167 BC. The Jews were a stubborn lot and point-blank refused to go along with Antiochus IV's tactic, which had worked so well for many empire builders before him, of requiring all his subjects to worship the official Greek religion.
Judah Maccabee wasn't having any of it, and his victory over Antiochus not only rescued the Jewish faith from oblivion but also firmly established the Jews as a regional power. Since Christianity and Islam later arose from Judaism, it's not unreasonable to suggest that perhaps Hanukkah should be as significant a festival in the Christian and Islamic calendars as it is in the Jews'. The world today would be very different had Judah's revolt failed.
28 - Colin
Thanks Ruvy for your time.
Northern Ireland now has a devolved government with, I believe, an assembly, where Sinn Fein and Unionists now share what power they have taken from Westminster. As it happens I agree with you on both India/Pakistan and Ireland (line drawing by British Imperial bureaucrats, aren't we grand, I think we drew the lines for Iraq too creating a not very happy mixture of people).
Re: "Now, a two-state solution imposed here," surely the idea is not to impose any solution but to negotiate it. I understand that there are extremists on both sides who won't countenance that at the moment but one of the few things Tony Blair can hold his head up about is that he refused to accept that in Northern Ireland - he just said 'no, you are going to talk' and the Reverend Ian Paisley - the implacable face of Unionism who once called the Pope the Antichrist - now sits alongside Martin McGuinness (sic?) in power - McGuiness is widely believed to have been a very high commander in the Irish Replublican Army. Now, I know things are a lot different, but... Oh, I don't know, I just find the whole thing so depressing.
Northern Ireland/Ulster is by no means perfect of course, just a couple of weeks ago former terrorists carried out more of their 'police work' in Protestant communities and former terrorists may well be morphing into the organised crime gangs they always were in part.
No, I shall have to bow to your greater knowledge.
Back on topic now. Well, maybe not. The Druids of Britain were polytheists I believe, seeing divinity in all or nature - they also, I have recently read, went into battle alongside their soldiers in something similar to the Yoga pose representing a fighting goose! But were considered so holy by all fighting they were guaranteed to remain untouched. Until the Romans came of course, when they were massacred on their island home Ynys Mon, now the lovely Angelsey.
I'm sure Mr Marlowe will take the same phlegmatic attitude his Chandlerian namesake would to the hijacking of his thread... At least I haven't asked Doctoro what he thinks about the return of King Kev!
29 - Dr Dreadful
Colin,
Don't know if you realize, but there is actually an article about the return of Keegan in the Sports section. See you there?
30 - Baritone
As to the evolution of monotheism: I understand that polytheism still flourishes in parts of the world, but it does predate monotheism. Doc is likely correct regarding the beginnings of Judaism. My little scenario was not meant to accurately reflect some known event. I just figure that at some point - actually and probably at several points some individual(s) came up with the notion of there being but one god. It makes more sense, and Doc, as you suggest, it's tidier. Rather than trying to keep track of multiple deities, trying to remember which god oversees what part of the world or universe, trying to make some kind of sense of mixed messages and attempting to please one without offending others.
You know, you kill the Wicked Witch of the East to the delite of the Munchkins, but incur the wrath of the Wicked Witch of the West. Ya can't please everybody. (I know, witches aren't gods, but the metaphor still works - more or less.)
Anyhow, the idea of one god had to originate with someone. Some someone eventually took the idea perhaps to his family, his neighbors, his fellow villagers. (It could have been a woman of course, but she would have had to whisper it to her husband, or brother or father for him to ponder and then share with others.) Obviously, any such idea had to be handled with kid gloves, probably out of earshot of current religious leaders who would likely have consididered such a notion to be blasphemy or its equivalent. Dangerous stuff, no doubt.
Just look at how the church responded to doubters or those perceived to be during the inquisition. It got kinda ugly.
B-tone
31 - Irene Wagner
I have to finish my Fr. Smith out before I respond. But its twelve volumes long--wish me happy reading :)
32 - Colin
Oh yes please Doc! Sorry - commented then went off to do summat that seemed more important! As if that were possible!
33 - Dr Dreadful
We're impatient around here, Irene. You've got 20 minutes. Move it move it move iiiiiit!!!
;-)
34 - Dave Nalle
Dan and others:
I think that everyone who is halfway rational is fine with the trappings of religion up to the point where they are forced on you or your family as a matter of government policy. I think this would be equally true for atheists, agnostics or those of a faith other than the one being imposed by the state.
In my case I have no objection to anything Christian so long as I don't have to pay for it involutnarily through taxes inand my kids don't feel presssured by religious forces I haven't approved of at school. That seems like a reasonable place to draw the line.
Dave
35 - Jet in Columbus
Oddly enough Dave, I'm just as offended by those trying too hard to insist there is no god as the ones who insist there is.
Beliefs are deeply personal and should not be forced on anyone either by percistant priests, or the government.
of course that's only my opinion...
Jet
36 - Bennett
What a fascinating conversation! Thank you all for a very good read. This was an Exceptional Article.
Robert Heinlein's "If This Goes On" paints a clear picture of what could be a difficult situation to recover from.
If we allow our government to set in place a "Bible Test" or "Bible Standard", or allow it to use the Biblical laws to eliminate or reduce the freedoms that were envisioned by the Founders of our country, then the USA would be NO different from Afghanistan under the Taliban or Iran under its Muslim Fundamentalist Control.
Bennett
37 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Some important events have been occurring in my neck of the woods, and I'll be adding comments to my articles for those who wish to follow them, and how I view them. I'd prefer not to hijack Marlowe's article....
38 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
The updates will be found at this article here.
39 - Baritone
Anyone interested in the topic at hand and wanting more, I suggest the following:
First - the book Marlowe linked to - Chris Hedges' American Fascists. A good read and perhaps better for the fact that Hedges is an active Christian theologian.
Second - Kingdom Coming by Michelle Goldberg. This is a painstaking overview of the theocratic movement detailing the plethora of the varied groups and individuals whose goal it is to establish an American Theocracy and their ties to the current federal administration.
Third - The Baptizing of America by Rabbi James Rudin. This book covers much the same ground as does Goldberg's book but written through the eyes of an active (though now retired) Jewish rabbi who has worked with many interfaith groups.
Keep in mind that these works are NOT anti-religious. Only Goldberg may have leanings toward atheism or agnosticism, and I'm not sure about that. They simply recount and warn of the efforts to change our form of government from a secular republic to a biblical theocracy.
Just a little bit of self-promotion here: I invite you to read my March 5th (2007) article "American Theocracy?" published here at BC plus a number of other articles related to this topic and the ongoing head butting between believers and non-believers.
Baritone
40 - Jet in Columbus
Of course there's also the 1st amendment of our constitution?
41 - P.Marlowe
FYI... Interesting piece in today's LA TIMES...
"Apocalyptic politics"
By Philip Jenkins
The religious right has splintered, but hard times could bring it back.
*************************
Sam, here's a great history lesson for you! READ it.
Philip Jenkins makes so cogent points in this op-ed.
I wanted to thank everyone for stimulating discourse here!
Marlowe
42 - Jet in Columbus
Now if we can get George Bush to read something other than elementary school books about goats...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I imagine that Jerry Falwell struggled with that all of his life. As for Pope Bush the 1st seems to be succeeding in ignoring it by his litmus tests concerning the supreme court...
43 - Baritone
The probability of anyone or any group succeeding in an effort to establish an American Theocracy is relatively low - probably more so now than a few years ago. There would be a number of road blocks, not the least of which would be the Constitution. It would be a long, difficult road to travel to circumvent it. Also, there would likely be a great deal of open and very vocal opposition, a lot of it coming from people suddenly awakened to what is happening and saying "Hey, wait a minute here!"
However, that does not preclude the possibility of it happening. It is far from being a dead issue as witness the current effort to introduce HR888. One could certainly imagine a scenario in which events might overtake reason - say a devastating terrorist attack eclipsing 9/11, and/or an economic collapse. Such events could send us whirling pell-mell into a kind of apocalyptic mode, a feeding frenzy of religious angst. As deeply religious as this country is, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine this happening.
However, it may not take anything so dramatic to turn the tide toward a theocracy. Just quiet, but deliberate and dogged chipping away around the edges of our system, making inroads wherever they can, being opportunistic, those who ardently believe that this country is god's chosen may suddenly find themselves in the catbird seat calling the shots. I fervently hope not, but some diligence must be maintained, or we could wind up being blind sided by a sudden, dramatic move toward an oligarchy of the high priests of protestant christendom.
B-tone
44 - P.Marlowe
Baritone & others... It ISN'T that we'll wake up next week and there will be the theocracy in full bloom right there in the front yard... It happens piece by piece... year by year...
Marlowe
45 - Baritone
Marlowe,
I think that's what I indicated near the end of my last comment. It's that "chipping away" process. But that also means that, perhaps one day the tide will have turned, the effort completed.
B-tone
46 - bliffle
Once a citizenry accepts the delusional religious fantasies of their leadership they can be expected to accept any kind of lies and illusions, even Holy Wars In Faraway Lands and adverse economic policies. Witness the demented Bush administration and it's policies based upon persistent lies which they repeat over and over. cf.: Center for Public Integrity
47 - Al Barger
Marlowesbeef- [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Jumpin' Jebus Christ on a Frickin' Pogo Stick. You've managed to whip yourself into a frenzy of the sky falling over a meaningless BS resolution about religion being important in American life.
The beginning of a theocracy? That's not even the beginning of a fart. You seem to think that the least hint of someone's religious beliefs influencing their political beliefs is just like the mullahs in Iran, when it's absolutely NOTHING.
And you're not only getting silly over a resolution with no substantive legal impact, but you're talking yourself into being scared of a bland, non-denominational thing like this.
If you've got the luxury of time to spare being scared of this nothing resolution as what kind of horrible things the bad guys are doing, then we're in pretty good shape.
48 - Dave Nalle
What people don't realize, Al, is that resolutions like this get introduced in Congress every day and they are entirely bullshit. They fall into two categories, those which are symbolic and have no actual functional provisions, and those which are submitted in the knowledge that they will never pass.
They exist so that Representative Elias P. Pander can go back to talk to the congregation at the Passing Waters Baptist Church in Braindead Arkansas and tell them that they have to vote for him because he's the one defending Jesus in a capital city dominated by a-theists and sec-u-lar humanists.
It doesn't matter whether they pass, and they never do. They exist solely so that he can placate the holy rollers and make sure he has their votes so that he can go back to DC and hire hookers as his office staff and snort coke off their tits.
Dave
49 - STM
The balkanisation of America could be great thing ... they do a wonderful barbecue.
Love the seafood. But the five different meats ain't bad either.
50 - P.Marlowe
To Al, et al., and any Albatross that might be lingering in the reading audience...
Well, you may or may not have noticed that IN THE POST I stated that I seriously doubted that HR888 would ever make it out of committee...
And, as has been pointed out by others and myself, the ISSUE is that this is (to use Baritone's phrase) a "chipping away" here.
Think of how things were (political)concerning the issue of "religion" in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s...
Now think of the OBSESSION of it today. Of the litmus tests - endless it seems. Of having to tip-toe around this element of the Christian "right" and that "other" element of the Christian "real right". Of the packing of the US Supreme Court not just with good old corporate yes men (which we have) but added to that - religious "conservatives".
Again, let me make this clear - from my standpoint: CAN THE U.S. become a Christianized version of a Taliban controlled Afghanistan? No, at least not right away... But this desperate attempt to "take back America" didn't start 8 months ago or 8 years ago but 28 years ago... We've grown accustomed to it... We've forgotten how it WAS NEVER LIKE THIS back then...
And I don't agree with Dave's off-hand remarks. You can't be "worried" about Huckabee at one moment and dismiss this bill - COMPLETELY - the next... Yes, the BILL is pathetic but it is its introduction... It hardly is the first of its kind...
And, if the Demo's do take the White House again, that bloody, ugly ultra-con Republican Machine is sure as hell going to start up again, trying to find some chink in the armor (and making one up if there isn't) and you can BET YOUR BOTTOM NEAR WORTHLESS - IN MOST EUROPEAN VACATION SPOTS - DOLLAR that the machine will be churning out little Christian soldiers for cannon fodder by the cubic yard...
Marlowe
51 - Jet in Columbus
It's apathy actually... the only reliable voting block is the Christian Right-that gives them power over us... and we gave it to them by being too damn lazy to get up off our asses and vote.
They retaliated by making sure that election day is on a work day, and not a national holiday.
52 - Clavos
"the machine will be churning out little Christian soldiers for cannon fodder"
At last! A solution to the christian problem!
Way to go, Marlowe!!
Now, what can we do with the Muslims and the rest of the theists??
53 - Baritone
Actually, the best hope for us non-believers is if all the good godsters get "raptured" away to heaven. Should that happen, it has been made clear that those of us "left behind" will, in fact, have hell to pay. But at least, in the interim there should be a lot of great toys, a number of now vacant McMansions - albeit probably garishly decorated - and a plethora other material goodies for us heathens to play with and bask in until Beelzebub comes a calling. And then, hey, maybe we can strike a deal with him of some kind for a little more earth time. Maybe we could provide old Lucifer with 72 sluts. Now there's an idea! What the hell? He's gonna have us to use as match sticks for eternity. What's a few years more or less?
B-tone
54 - Clavos
My attorneys are already in touch with his, B.
They're all doing lunch next week...
55 - Jet in Columbus
I learned at a young age how much damage can be done should their goals be realized. In a little suburb of Coraopolis Pennsylvania is a tourist spot where a whole society in the late 1800s became convinced that Jesus Christ was coming soon.
The men and women were completely segragated into different housing, all wore heavy cloaks to keep any temptational thoughts away, and they eventually perrished with no offspring to carry on their beliefs.
Their only activities were to read the bible aloud, farm, and making wine in huge wooden casks in the basement of the men's dormitory. They watched eachother closely and constantly for signs of impure thoughts that God would disapprove of at his return.
I hope everyone thinks seriously about what fundamentalists christians preach that they want for our society and this indesputible fact...
They don't really want what they preach, because if they got it they'd be out of a job, and all that money that they collect from the poor fools stupid enough to believe them...
56 - P.Marlowe
It isn't true Christians we need to fear... Indeed many of them are adamantly opposed to what the "Christian right" is doing... This internal war has been raging since the time of Paul really... It took on a whole NEW dimension though with the furious arguments over the divinity of Jesus.
The earliest believers didn't believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God... They couldn't - there was no settled theology. Indeed there were no recognized texts for decades.
If Christians today were better educated in their own history (and the same can be said for Muslims) the world would be a considerably different place...
But so long as the human EGO is convinced it is linked directly to DIVINITY we are all in serious trouble. Thus is born the deadliest form of religious fanaticism.
Marlowe
57 - Jet in Columbus
It's funny you should mention history lessons, the 700 Club has been teaching that God assigned George Washington the task of creating our nation in his image...
Unfortuntely whatever it was that people are taught first is what they believe the rest of their lives...
in most cases
58 - P.Marlowe
Jet... That's called F I C T I O N....
Suspect all with an "agenda".
Marlowe
59 - Jet in Columbus
How does that song go? Believe half of what you see ond none of what you hear...
60 - bliffle
I predict that the Christian Right will tire of being manipulated and abandoned by the Republicans and they will first lose interest in voting and then break away. Very soon, too.
61 - Clavos
Hope you're right, bliffle, though I think there's been a lot more manipulation of the Republican Party by the Fundy leadership than vice versa.
62 - Dr Dreadful
Fundy leadership my arse. The Bush admin has played the religious right for suckers for years. In fact, I'm surprised he's still keeping up the pretense. After duping them into helping him win two elections, Bush doesn't need them any more.
63 - bliffle
The christian right have not gotten anti-abortion legislation or anti-gay, etc., which remain their hot buttons. They haven't gotten the quid pro quo and are tired of being rightist shock troops for no rewards.
64 - Jet in Columbus
Or to put it another way, those are the very issues that got them to the polls in droves on empty promises and medicine man tactics.
65 - Clavos
Good. I hope all three of you are right and they get the hell out of the Republican Party.
Good riddance I say, and the quicker they leave the better.
And I do think you're wrong Doc. People like Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Bob Jones and others of their ilk have had way too much influence on the party leadership in recent years.
I'm appalled that Huckabee has gotten as far as he has.
66 - Irene Wagner
Dr. D.: Bush doesn't need them, but Huckabee, Mittney, McCain do. The war isn't going to be ending any time soon. As long as Jews and Muslims are fighting somewhere, (and someone is profitting from that war) there are going to be Christians who will believe what the paid-for-by-AIPAC hirelings tell them: God's heavenly hosts aren't stronog enough--the Almighty can't fulfill his Biblical promises to Jews without guns and soldiers from America. Without them*, there's very little chance the scam would work.
* a subset of the we of which I am a part
67 - Irene Wagner
But there's hope. If we Christians collectively become equally passionate about the sanctity of life of innocent victims of war in the Middle East and innocent victims of abortion in the womb, and if enough of us start to see the superiority of the "gentle persuasion" person-by-person method of effecting social changes over the "ram it down their throats through the federal courts" method,
/sarcasm on/ we'll once again be able to focus on fighting with atheists over more important matters like the age of the earth, the similarity of apes to humans, and the inappropriateness of ten commandments plaques being allowed to remain in courtrooms. /sarcasm off/
68 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Irene,
Arabs don't give a rat's ass about your "gentle persuasion". They respect power and that is all they respect. When Arabs terrorists seized the Church of the Sepulchre in 2002, you Christians did shit. You didn't open your mouths at all. You did not warn the Arabs that the Qa'aba would be blown to bits if they did not evacuate the church forthwith, you did not warn that mosques would be burnt to the ground if they did not evacuate your church.
No.
You acted like cowards - like churchmice - no better than the bent backed yids who run Israel, who cannot even figure out how to do a blockade correctly, they are so damned scared of offending YOU, and your overdeveloped "consciences", not to mention you pissant "Geneva Conventions".
The Arabs here learnt the lesson. Your word is trash and you are trash. That is what the Moslems think of you in Israel. They rape Christian women and nobody does a damned thing about it. They steal Christian property and nobody does a damned thing about it. You abandon your own because you have no guts and they all know it and laugh at you all.
Why Arab Christians remain Christians in the face of your perfidy is a puzzle to me, but they do, poor fools. Were I in this position, forced to abandon my home and my women's honor because you westerners don't give a damn, I'd find a different religion to join - ANY RELIGION - and give you all the middle finger you richly deserve. But then again, that's me. That's why I'm not a Christian in the first place. I do no believe in turning the other cheek. I believe in emptying the banana clip, and loading the next one and blowing my enemy to bits. Good solid Talmudic teaching.
The Arabs Moslems only have contempt for you because you have kissed their asses, and when they mistreated Christians, you have abandoned them to to the Moslems, too. You now reap what you have sown.
Enjoy it.
There is NO hope for you at all. You Christians do not have the guts to disembowel your real enemies (and their head waiters in the White House and the CFR), you do not even have the guts to point your fingers at you true enemies, naming them by their proper names, and calling for their destruction.
And you all wonder why I sound so contemptuous of you?
69 - Dave Nalle
From what I can see Hillary's version of the democratic party is ready to welcome back the religious right and give them a place of honor. I say send them on over, back where they came from.
Dave
70 - P.Marlowe
So Ruvy... You're suggesting that the solution to all our problems would be to wipe, from the face of the earth, every single Arab?
No doubt I misunderstood you.
The fault is NOT in "a people" Ruvy... Though it is understandable, when one mistakes the AXIOLOGY of a large swath of humanity FOR the people laboring under its (both negative and positive traits).
We could easily decry the evils of Western society and it's absolute fixation on all things material. Sure, all humans suffer from greed, lust, desire... But what we're talking about when it comes to the West is its WORSHIP of the Material World at the expense of all else. This is born out of OUR axiology, which, along with the other two was born eons ago, shaped by natural forces as much as anything else. We've operated on its foundation that - LIKE a floor we no longer give it thought - unless someone calls into question that the floor is WARPED in places and rotted through in others... Then we tend to react a bit negatively toward them and finally we kill them for being a pest. Nothing wrong with this floor we say! Everyone in the world "walks" like this...
It is the OPERATING SYSTEMS that ALL THE PEOPLES OF WEST ASIA that is the issue Ruvy. The proof of this can be seen IN the U.S.
Back in the 1980s when children of Japanese businessmen who were working in the US went back to Japan they were almost universally faced with severe prejudice - to the point of murder. Children who were in school were beaten by their classmates because their hair bangs were an INCH LONGER than those of the rest of the class! I had friends who went through a lot of this...
Western axiology, which is extremely virulent tends to OVERWRITE the other two axiologies rather quickly.
So, take a look at 2nd and 3rd generation Arabs in the U.S. You see kids who REJECT the suffocating PATERNAL order of their parents and grandparents. These kids dare to think on their own. They dare to question. They reject the blatherings and outright lies and "warping" of the Qu'ran for instance...
It isn't the Arab that's the problem Ruvy... It is the suffocating old blanket of Man-to-Man axiology that ENTIRE region is smothering under that is the problem...
And that blanket can only be removed via education and appeal to REASON...
Marlowe
71 - P.Marlowe
You know (most) politicians Dave... ANYTHING for a vote...
Marlowe
72 - Jet in Columbus
You know, there's an episode of the original Star Trek in which two planets got rid of the horrors of war by fighting it by computer. Their citizens just walked into death chambers.
We're heading that way in my view. World War Two was so effective because Germany was bombed nearly to death. It's people rose up against war because the bombs we dropped didn't care about the little children and women it killed.
In Japan the horror of war was visited on a people determined to kill all who opposed them because the only thing they'd listen to was the Atomic Bomb.
Now we have the same Kamakazis (sic) in the form of suicide bombers, and America has made the whole operation of war sanitized. Now instead of bombing and killing radicals into submission through the death of its innocents, we use smart bombs targeting one specific place.
When a house is infested with cockroaches, you don't just spray the kitchen, you throw a tent over the house and gas the whole thing.
As much as I hate to say it, and as much as we ALL have thought it...Sooner or later someone's got to realize that the only way to stop radical Islam, is to bomb a few well populated areas where they live, and keep it up until the damned fools capitulate, like the Japanese did, like the Germans did.
But of course that's only my opinion
Jet
I now return you to your regularly scheduled program......
73 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
So Ruvy... You're suggesting that the solution to all our problems would be to wipe, from the face of the earth, every single Arab?
No doubt I misunderstood you.
BOY, did you misunderstand me, Marlowe! I didn't say anything about exterminating Arabs in some grand final solution. Sorry, dude, that is not how most Jews think, and it certainly not how I think!
What I implied, and what I will say straight up right now, is that if you have an enemy, you need to deal with that enemy with an iron hand, or not at all.
Let's point out the example. For five years, the Arabs in Gaza had been bombarding the villages of Gush Qatif with rockets and mortars. The Israeli government, afflicted with a bad case of cowardice, forced its own citizens to leave their homes in Gaza, homes that had been there for a generation. Then the Arabs started to bombard S'derot. Instead of levelling two or three Arab towns to dust to show them that you do NOT fuck with the Israeli Army, they did virtually nothing. They bombarded empty buildings and bitched and moaned like sick cows. In the meantime, in the two and a half years since Gush Qatif was evacuated, S'derot and the surrounding villages and kibbutzim have been turned into ghost towns.
So much for the traitorous bastards who ru(i)n Israel.
Now let's look at the terrorist seizure of the Church of the Sepulchre. Your Christians, including the born again dry drunk in the White House, did not say the Qa'aba would be nuclear dust unless the church was evacuated in ONE hour. Your government, and all the other so-called representatives of Christian countries didn't do shit. Your governments showed just how much respect they REALLY have for Christian holy places, and how much they REALLY give a damn about all the Christians they supposedly represent.
Instead of a firm hand, you guys used something weaker than a limp wrist. You deserve the contempt and the demonization the Arabs pour all over you, and you deserve my contempt as well, as your government is constantly interfering in OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS, telling where and where not we Jews may live in OUR OWN homeland that we paid for in blood....
That does NOT mean that you need to kill every Arab. So, don't put words in my mouth.
74 - P.Marlowe
Yah... I've had this thought for awhile now... Unfortunately, (as I just wrote over on Winston Apple's piece) there is something to be said for the Roman Empire take on things...
One cannot reason with tyrants - and terrorists are simply stateless tyrants. But of course they do get aid and safe haven from states...
The US needs to do this: state clearly to the world the following - should any future attacks be carried out on US or European allies soil the US will choose three populations centers throughout West Asia and obliterate them. No rhyme, no reason. Just cities from any state that is known to support - in ANY SHAPE OR FASHION - such terrorist horror. PERIOD.
Of course the outcry will be deafening. "How can you do this!!?" "Has the US gone MAD?!"
No doubt, our resolve will be tested. And then we will have to deliver... With the emphasis being that should the terrorist strike again SIX population centers will be obliterated...
In the meantime we will be offering a solution - a real set of solutions.
ABSOLUTE demand from the LEADERS in the region for economic and social reform NOW. Relief for the toiling MILLIONS who suffer under these rich bastards and feel compelled to JOIN the terrorists out of sheer frustration and anger...
NEXT... All U.S. businesses in the region will be SEVERELY REGULATED so that no US business can ever be accused of ADDING to the misery of the population.
The HAMMER without the other HAND OPEN cannot work. The OPEN HAND without the HAMMER at the ready will not either.
Marlowe
75 - P.Marlowe
Yah... I've had this thought for awhile now... Unfortunately, (as I just wrote over on Winston Apple's piece) there is something to be said for the Roman Empire take on things...
One cannot reason with tyrants - and terrorists are simply stateless tyrants. But of course they do get aid and safe haven from states...
The US needs to do this: state clearly to the world the following - should any future attacks be carried out on US or European allies soil the US will choose three populations centers throughout West Asia and obliterate them. No rhyme, no reason. Just cities from any state that is known to support - in ANY SHAPE OR FASHION - such terrorist horror. PERIOD.
Of course the outcry will be deafening. "How can you do this!!?" "Has the US gone MAD?!"
No doubt, our resolve will be tested. And then we will have to deliver... With the emphasis being that should the terrorist strike again SIX population centers will be obliterated...
In the meantime we will be offering a solution - a real set of solutions.
ABSOLUTE demand from the LEADERS in the region for economic and social reform NOW. Relief for the toiling MILLIONS who suffer under these rich bastards and feel compelled to JOIN the terrorists out of sheer frustration and anger...
NEXT... All U.S. businesses in the region will be SEVERELY REGULATED so that no US business can ever be accused of ADDING to the misery of the population.
The HAMMER without the other HAND OPEN cannot work. The OPEN HAND without the HAMMER at the ready will not either.
Marlowe