For Arabs, everything revolves around relationships with family. That's where the problem starts.
Mullahs and supposed “holy men” have undue influence over the hearts and minds of a huge swath of Muslims – many of whom are frighteningly, tragically uneducated and wholly ignorant of the truths of their own faith. Of course, the same can be said for hundreds of millions of Christians – their level of ignorance about the forces that really shaped their beliefs is also terribly disheartening.…
Article comments
26 - Nancy
Clavos, don't you think, though, that much of this belief in 2 religions ends in a mixing of both?
27 - moonraven
It's called SINCRETISM.
"Syncretism is the process by which elements of one religion are assimilated into another religion resulting in a change in the fundamental tenets or nature of those religions. It is the union of two or more opposite beliefs, so that the synthesized form is a new thing. It is not always a total fusion, but may be a combination of separate segments that remain identifiable compartments. Originally a political term, "syncretism" was used to describe the joining together of rival Greek forces on the Isle of Crete in opposition to a common enemy."
It is very much the case here in Mexico that indigenous gods and goddesses are worshipped in the form of Catholic saints. In the case that clavos mentioned in Brazil, the saint in question is Santa Barbara....
28 - Clavos
Clavos actually posted a related link!
Every link I post is related; even if you don't think so.
One problem, though: Apparently he did not READ the introduction, or at least not section 1.3.2 which talks about the dramatic changes in the language due to the conquest by the Moors and the inculcation of ARABIC!
Actually, MR I read not only section 1.3.2, but the entire introduction and much of the rest of the book, as I have a copy of it.
That's why I wrote this in my previous comment:
Professor Penny of course acknowledges the importance of the Moorish occupation and its influence on Spain and Spanish, but he also points out that Spanish is grammatically and syntactically a Romance Language.
Apparently you didn't give it a very close read, (but I'm not surprised at that, since you know it all) or you would have noticed that the primary focus of that section, after he briefly discusses the influence of Arabic on Spanish, deals with how the Moors did not conquer the entire Iberian Peninsula, and consequently, how much greater an effect Castilla (Castile) had on the language. An effect that is still very apparent today.
BTW, later in his book, Professor Penny notes that there are approximately 7,000 words of Arabic derivation in Modern Spanish, not 10,000.
One other point: As you should know, Mexico is one of the few places where the Church DID initiate the incorporation of indigenous deities into the Catholic liturgy in an effort to co-opt the indigenous religions. They even built many of their churches directly on top of Indian temples, as in Cholula.
And last: The melding of indigenous religious elements into catholicism in Latin America, according to the definition you provide, is NOT syncretism, since said melding did NOT "result... in a change in the fundamental tenets or nature of" Catholicism. (emphasis mine)
29 - Clavos
Nancy #26:
Often it does, yes.
But the Catholics have been very careful in most instances to preserve their liturgy as much as possible. See my comment to MR above.
30 - Mark Schannon
Marlowe,
Fascinating article and great commentary (except from Moonbeam, who actually sounds quite intelligent but her anger quotient drowns it out...so I just ignore her). Shit, where was I?
Oh yeah. I'm embarrassed to admit I've never heard of axiology, so it gives me something to do in my declining years--or declining moments of sentient behavior.
But I was struck by the fact that Westerners get the shit end of the lollipop. "Man to Object," at least without more explanation, seems almost a charicature of Western civilization.
The Arab, "man to man," at least the way you describe part of it, also has a "Person to Extended Family" sense to it, that, nurtured correctly could get rid of the Patriarchal nonsense. But that, and the Eastern value sets are people-oriented, no matter how distorted they may get.
Why would the west come up with a thing-oriented values system? Suggestions on further reading would be appreciated.
One comment in passing: I've worked with a number of survey research people who've been pioneering "values" research--a way to discover those deeply held beliefs that drive behavior. Their take, although it may be time to call them again, is that there are a set of about 10-15 values that are universal--buried perhaps even deeper than your axions.
Anyway, thanks for the new stuff to gnaw on.
In Jameson Veritas
31 - Victor Plenty
Wow, Marlowe. Moonraven labels you anti-Arab and anti-Muslim. Yet Foehammer labels you a servile tool of the Islamist fanatics and a traitor to Western civilization.
I've noticed when one gets attacked by the nutbars on both sides of an issue, that's often a sign one is on the right track.
Thanks for reminding us the real battle in today's world is not between the "Islamic East" and the "Judeo-Christian/Greco-Roman West." It is not even between the "left-wing liberal" and the "right-wing conservative" wings of the Western worldview.
The most important battle being fought today is the war between barbaric absolutism and civilized tolerance, and it threatens every human life on the planet. Only by understanding its roots can we hope to win it, and secure a future worth having for anyone.
32 - jaz
Victor sez - "The most important battle being fought today is the war between barbaric absolutism and civilized tolerance, and it threatens every human life on the planet. Only by understanding its roots can we hope to win it, and secure a future worth having for anyone."
Quoted for Truth
33 - P. Marlowe
Victor P...
“Wow, Marlowe. Moonraven labels you anti-Arab and anti-Muslim. Yet Foehammer labels you a servile tool of the Islamist fanatics and a traitor to Western civilization.”
It is thus Victor... For...
I AM A RIVER TO MY PEOPLE!*
To Mr. Shannon:
>But I was struck by the fact that Westerners get the shit end of the lollipop. "Man to Object," at least without more explanation, seems almost a caricature of Western civilization. <
It might seem this way at first... The theory, as I stated, is that these axiological values have been essentially pressed into us for 30 to 40,000 years.
For the European, and more specifically Northern European/Slavic peoples you need to place yourself in their world at that time. They lived in the harshest environment on the planet. They scratched out an existence through two major ice ages and some minor ones.
For the African, the South American, the West Asian, food and hunting was plentiful most if not all year long. Not so for the European. Hunting seasons were short and growing seasons were even shorter, whether one was simply gathering or later on planting. For these peoples the focus of THEIR universe was simply this: WHATEVER it took to survive another winter. Whatever object, piece of hunting ground, or emerging technology that was needed to help them survive another brutal 7 or 8 months.
Whatever resources were available were always in short supply and being contested for by others.
So for the Europeans/Slavic people the OBJECT became the bedrock of their value system.
For the African food was, essentially, plentiful. Food grew pretty much all year. Animals of one sort or another were around most all year. There were tough times of course but OVERALL it was simply a matter of moving to another valley, another plain. So for them familial relations was the center of their universe. Sure, they needed food, but food was around, somewhere...
For the Europeans of course family relations were critical too. But EVERYONE'S overarching concern was CONTROL of that OBJECT that will help all of them survive until next Spring.
It should be no surprise then that when Europe finally emerged from the Dark Ages (I don't care how present day historians try to sugar coat it " calling them the “Middle Ages” - they were ugly, dark and brutal) especially Northern Europeans took off like a bat out of hell in pursuit of the material sciences. Control of the environment was ABSOLUTELY paramount to them. More so than for any other peoples.
It sure as hell wasn't because Europeans are smarter than any other race. They're just as stupid. But their FOCUS was more intense on the physical world. They inherited all the wonderful knowledge from the Muslims during the 10th through 14th century and took of with it like an open field run.
I hope that at least opens the door a bit further on the subject....
Trickle... trickle...
P. Marlowe
*Anthony Quinn, “Lawrence of Arabia”
34 - moonraven
Clavos is now proclaiming himself an expert of linguistic history, culture and religion. Thios has got to be as low a point on this site as Dave Nalle talking about it going without saying that he had no clones on these threads....
Jesus Christ, don't you old burners ever consider getting at least a high school diploma to back up your outrageous claims?
35 - Clavos
Clavos is now proclaiming himself an expert of linguistic history
No, but Professor Penny certainly is.
Clavos is now proclaiming himself an expert of ...culture and religion
There is no place in any of my comments where I have "proclaimed" myself to be an "expert."
Having had the dogma and history of the Catholic Church drilled into me for twenty years by Mexican priests and nuns gave me a more than superficial knowledge of the Church, and in particular the Church in Mexico, with its long and stormy history vis-a-vis the government.
I remember clearly when the Church was restricted by the government to the point that the clergy could not wear their clerical garb on the street, and were often harassed by the authorities.
Why don't you present arguments and facts, MR, instead of your constant ad hominems?
36 - moonraven
Clav, I just think it's appalling that you google something and immediately it is THE WORD OF GOD.
Your prof. has no more expertise or academic credentials than I have. Maybe even less--given that he wrote his history of Spanish in English--for gringo consumption.
His OPINION is also no more valid than mine. His saying there are 7,000 words of Arabic in Spanish instead of 10,000--does that mean that Arabic did not cause Spanish to develop differently from the other Latin-root languages?
I don't think so.
You are just using him to try to impress folks with someone else's opinion. Fact is, you don't have any idea whatsoever about language formation or development. Those are academic topics dealt with by specialists like myself--not by sellers of boats to gusanos.
You don't like ad hominem attacks? Go back through this site and tell me who started those and when.
You did. In September. Live with them.
37 - moonraven
BTW: Given the massive interference in politics (and everything else) of the catholic church here--especially its pederasty-promoting archbishop Rivera--I would like to wring the neck of Carlos Salinas for letting those bastards start with their totalitarian bullshit again.
We need another Benito Juarez to cut those Franco-worshipping shits down to size.
38 - Victor Plenty
Ad hominem attacks are still a logical fallacy even when someone else "started first."
39 - moonraven
So--You have seen anything on this site to be LOGICAL?
Give me a break.
40 - P. Marlowe
Moonraven are you this jovial with everyone you meet?
You've been spitting and fuming with every post here. Usually about matters that in the scheme of things aren't of world-shaking import. Why the hostility to one and all?
Seriously?
P. Marlowe
41 - Victor Plenty
Actually, Moonraven, I am trying to give you a break. If I really wanted to mess you up, I'd just quietly stand by while you keep doing what you've been doing. There's really no more effective way to oppose you than that.
By suggesting ways you could improve the effectiveness of your efforts, I'm actually trying to help you.
Of course, I know better than to expect any gratitude for this.
42 - Clavos
Ad hominem attacks are still a logical fallacy even when someone else "started first."
And no one else did.
Here's MR's very first comment on BC. In those days, she wrote with the handle, "marthe raymond:"
This comment is in the thread of Dave Nalle's article, "Hugo Chavez - One Man Axis of Crazy," here:
#21 " September 21, 2006 @ 16:37PM " marthe raymond
This commentary must have been written by someone who doesn't read other peoples' commentaries--or keep up with any news, only propaganda.
Chavez, as usual, was RIGHT ON--as we used to say in the 60s. Especially in regard to the needed UN reforms. And the blogger would have to eat his words if VERIFIABLE ELECTIONS were a requirement for membership--that would exclude the USA, as well as the country where I live, Mexico. It would not exclude Venezuela, whose elections have been verified by the Carter Center, the OEA and the European Union since 1998.
Try getting out more--leave the computer keys to someone who does.
'nuff said.
43 - Victor Plenty
Fascinating info, Clavos. Thanks for pointing that out.
44 - P. Marlowe
Fanatacism, no matter religious or political is a hideous thing - a fire that cannot be quinched. The fanatic is often times unable to see that there are others around them that actually harbor many of the same "rational" desires the fanatic once had and could be affective allies.
It is a disease for which there is no cure.
P. Marlowe
45 - MCH
Clavvy;
I thought you were opposed to cyber-stalking?
46 - Clavos
emmy,
I am. Wasn't "cyber-stalking." Was defending myself against a lie.
MR said:
You don't like ad hominem attacks? Go back through this site and tell me who started those and when.
You did. In September. Live with them.
So I found the evidence refuting her.
Not stalking, emmy.
47 - moonraven
Clavos, Would you or some other cretin like to explain why what I wrote in what you quoted would be considered an ad hominem attack?
You apparently do not understand what the term means. Your ad hominem attacks began with comments about my choosing to live in Mexico with campesinos--as if folks who work the land were somehow subhuman and that I was declasse for living where I do.
As for the condescending asshole who gives advice to a longtime professional writer and professor of same about how to improve my writing--I think you know where you can put your suggestions.
And someone else asked about my demeanor when I MEET people. Listen, in case you were not aware of it, I have not MET any of you. (The fact that I would not care to is beside the point). This is a virtual space message board. No one on here is real.
I don't know why all the curiousity about me--I couldn't possibly care less about any of you jerkoffs.
48 - P. Marlowe
Moonraven... What a joy you are! I can only imagine you're even more pleasant in person.
No, we are all REAL. Simply because we are meeting here doesn't mean we're not.
It's perfectly fine to disagree, and vigorously. It's fine to use wit and sarcasm and satire - I certainly do...
But if you're hoping to actually reach an audience (and don't lie and say you don't care, otherwise you wouldn't be writing responses) can I suggest you stop spitting on everyone?
I've found such teenage behavior depressing. We all know that were we to meet face to face you wouldn't dare speak this way to us - unless you truly wished to be thought of as a revolting pig. I don't think that's the case here. I think you're just a very angry person who doesn't seem to know how to channel the anger constructively.
More's the pity.
P. Marlowe
49 - moonraven
Cheap psychology is worth what you pay for it: in this case, nothing.
You have no right to try to abridge my rights to create any kind of PERSONA for myself that I damn please--on this site or any other.
Knock off your condescending horseshit about "reaching an audience".
If you think I have the slightest interest in "reaching" clavos and nalle and arch and the rest of the rightwing nebbishes, you need to visit a psychologist yourself.
And if you think we are real, try touching us.
Fascist idiot.
50 - Christopher Rose
What is your interest in this site then, moonraven? You sure spend a lot of time here...
51 - P. Marlowe
By all means Moonraven rant on. Your posts have become nothing but a sad amusement for most. I was trying to extend a hand in friendship.
You're obviously so filled with hate and rancor that you're incapable of reading posts correctly.
Your foul language certainly belies your continuous insistance that you're a professor of linguistics/language. Your Ph.D might exist but you've obviously never spent time in front of a class or carried on a mature debate. This might explain why you've run off.
Lastly, I urge you to see someone about your paranoia. It leaks out all through your posts. I'm sure you can find help with it there in Mexico.
Best of luck in your recovery...
P. Marlowe
52 - sr
Moonbat, Being the sweet sensitive man I am don't you think we can all get along. Bet your just a cute little pussy cat.
Sincerely,
sr
Phd/of Redneckology
53 - moonraven
I guess it's clear that folks who have nothing to say about POLITICS--which is what this forum is for, and the reason for which I visit it--want to belittle other folks by trying to act as if they actually knew something about psychology.
And you have the nerve to call into question my professional activities? Not only do I teach, but have won many awards for my teaching as well as for my design of programs. Starting in the US, by the way, in the late 60s.
Not that it's really any of your business, but at least this poster is not a 17 year old beating off on this site. It is possible to be an intellectual and to care passionately about politics.
I have no desire for friendship with you. This is not a dating chat room.
Get over it.
[Edited]
54 - P. Marlowe
Quotes from our beloved Moonraven:
"ignorant have short memories."
"shoot off their ignorant mouths"
"Jesus Christ, don't you old burners ever consider getting at least a high school diploma to back up your outrageous claims?"
"Franco-worshipping shits down to size."
"As for the condescending asshole"
"I couldn't possibly care less about any of you jerkoffs."
"condescending horseshit"
"Fascist idiot"
"beating off on this site"
"And fuck off."
YES, yes yes... There's no doubt about it moonraven, you're quite the professional.
P. Marlowe
55 - moonraven
At least I am not a prudish little prick like you.
56 - moonraven
I should have said prudish little prick who is obsessed with a person who is not even real....
57 - P. Marlowe
"At least I am not a prudish little prick like you"
I knew there was something missing! Thanks Moonraven for putting the finishing touches on my point!! You're a prince!
P.Marlowe
58 - P. Marlowe
Best of luck Moonraven. Really. I hope you can find some way past the ugliness that seems to pervade your every waking moment.
Maybe some therapy that can get you past all your raging paranoia? Again, I'm sure you can find good psychological help down there.
In the meantime we'll continue to read your posts for some sign of your supposed former "successful" self.
P. Marlowe
59 - moonraven
Nothing "formerly successfully" about this poster. I am getting my stuff ready for another consulting gig at a university in the Middle East.
I have nothing whatsoever against your waiting tables. It's an honorable trade, tips can be good and you didn't need to pay for an education.
Your therapy suggestions, however, are laughable. I wouldn't change a hair of myself. I am as happy as one person could possibly be in a world where gringos like you are allowed to spew their jingoist propaganda and murder hundreds of thousands of people--including each other.
The last part is at least some karmic payment for the genocide against my people.
60 - moonraven
Incidentally, miniprick--nobody is forcing you to read my posts. Certainly I am not.
I am sure your time could be better used playing video games, for that matter.
61 - P. Marlowe
Moonraven! Your moniker also belies what lies in your soul!
For the record I am Mexican. My father was from Texas, my mother born and raised in Guadalajara.
I am also a former college professor now working as a screenwriter.
Ahh! See how accurate your arrows of hatred are!
How delightful to be you! A saint in professorial garb no doubt without a trace of prejudice, without any ugliness of the soul whatsoever! No doubt you're constantly surrounded by a loving family and a stadium full of friends!
And your brilliant freshman insults concerning everyone's manhood! So mature and original! I must write these down!
Best of luck in the Middle East. Careful which bus you take. It would be a shame for the world to lose someone with such a loving heart...
P. Marlowe
62 - Clavos
...And don't forget your Burkha!
63 - moonraven
I am not going to Afghanistan, oh ignorant ones.
Marlowe is now inventing an identity for himself.
Guess he has time to do that since now we know he doesn't work.
Former professor--my ass.
64 - Dave Nalle
Marlowe, we should form a "Former Professors Against Moonraven" club.
I think it says it all that both of us have moved on from academe to something more enrichind and more lucative, yet Moonraven slaves on in the pits of marxist pseudointellectualism where she feels safe and secure.
Dave
65 - MCH
More 4th grade playground bullying, ehe Nalle/Populi?
66 - moonraven
Wrong again, Nalle.
Moonraven has moved all over the place: Advertising, Marketing, Human Services, Journalism, Business Consulting--in addition to academia (teaching and management).
And since I was successful in all those areas I can do whatever I please and not worry about money. Although, to be truthful, I only do educational consulting when they pay me big bucks to do it.
Sure beats writing for magazines about games for 10 year olds.
67 - moonraven
But feel free to form that club--but drum up a bunch more members, as you two wimps don't stand a chance by yourselves.
68 - sr
Thought I was bad with my few comments directed at Moonraven. Some of you are just cruel. Enough is enough.
69 - moonraven
They have nothing better to do--and nothing to do it with anyway.
All folks in the US are cruel.
70 - P. Marlowe
Moonraven! You're back! Wooonderrful! I'd thought your 24 hour absence after my post #61 might be due to your seeking a long overdue introspection -DECADES overdue obviously - about why you seem to be filled with such hate and self-loathing.
Apparently, after reading your latest posts such was not the case... No doubt you were instead making small incendiary devices for use against assorted innocent citizens in your neighborhood who might have ignited your wrath by... Oh, I don't know, saying "buenos dias" to you...
Glad you're back though. Otherwise there wouldn't be NEARLY as much to laugh at here!
Cheers!
P. Marlowe
71 - moonraven
I am NOT really back--have to go to the airport for a brief flight to the beach now.
It's really good to see that you know so much about Islam, though.
Almost as much as Bush.
You must have taught Dishwashing in Arab Restaurants.
Screenwriter is another name for Unemployed.
(I spent years writing film criticism in the States and I know your type.)
Congratulations, sucker.
72 - P. Marlowe
Moony! Don't go! Come on now...
As for Islam... Well my dear shriveled little prune you would be wrong... I know a great deal about Islam. I also know many of the lies spoken against it - and MANY of the lies spoken by its mullahs...
If you'd had the capacity to read the post clearly, without looking for something to feed your seemingly insatiable need for something to rail against, you might have noticed I was DEFENDING Islam - stating that it WASN'T the real source of the horrors of that region but was simply being USED by those who, like you, LIVE to HATE.
I stated that the cause for much of what was happening went far, far deeper than religion, but that, as within ALL axiologies, RELIGION can be co-opted to serve the warped elements of that axiology...
Have fun at the beach!! Remember to nick yourself for good luck before entering the shark-infested waters!!!
P. Marlowe
73 - moonraven
I NEVER go anywhere near the water at the beach.
Tell us about all your time spent with Muslims in the Middle East. Guess I missed that.