The Supreme Court upheld a nationwide ban on partial birth abortions today in a 5-4 vote.
The Supreme Court upheld a nationwide ban on partial birth abortions today in a 5-4 vote. The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 which was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush received immediate challenges. The procedure at issue involves partially removing the fetus intact from a woman's uterus, then crushing or cutting its skull to complete the abortion.…
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76 - MBD
#71
"so abortion is ok until the heart develops sufficiently to beat - ?"
That's a good place for the court to go next.
77 - A Concerned Citizen
Christopher
You appear to have confused birth control and murder. Birth control is using the Pill and not getting pregnant. Murder is ripping a baby apart in the womb a la abortion. Big difference.
It's strange that you should refer to what I said as "shock tactics". Maybe it was, but it did serve to make a larger point -- people should decide whether they want to risk having kids before they have sex. Nothing good ever comes from irresponsibility.
Abortion just shows our blindness, our hypocrisy. It defies everything we say we want as a people -- such as peace amongst ourselves, freedom from violence, etc. How can we expect any of these things if we're willing to let our mothers kill their own children? It's beyond all reason. It makes no sense.
If we can't recognize our own responsibility and the value of all human beings, how can we be so arrogant as to presume to rectify any of society's problems?
78 - Arch Conservative
"All these heartfelt arguments about living or killing miss the point , it is a woman's right to choose if she wants to become a parent or not."
That's your point of view Christopher.
To others the bottom line is wether to kill a baby or not.
By the way a woman can choose to have the baby and then give it up for adoption thereby still choosing not to be a parent but at the same time also choosing not to be a murderer.
79 - Paul2
A Concerned Citizen wrote:
"She she make the choice before she opens her legs"
Theres no way to get pregnant by doing that.
80 - Christopher Rose
ACC: Drivel. Abortion isn't murder. More shock tactics...
AC: Drivel. A mother who gives a baby up for adoption is still a parent. And abortion still isn't murder.
81 - Zedd
Concerned
#60
I don't want to be rude but you do realise that you didn't say anything with that statement. What were you actually trying to say.
82 - Zedd
MBD
Research programs beginning at 12 weeks of gestation, sought to maximize fetal potential. Test results show definite physical, mental, and emotional advantages to those in stimulated groups. These babies showed significantly greater height and head circumference, fine and gross motor performance, and speech and language acquisition. They also smiled and laughed in the first week after birth--something rarely seen in babies.
How does this prove that they have desire. It proves that they are generating, growing and learning; changing slowly into viable human beings.
The same test would more than likely produce the same results in a chimp or dog. You see the issue is not whether fetuses develop. That is what they do. If they didn't they would spontaneously abort. Your saying that they develop faster when they receive a certain stimulation is a mute point. Every encounter contributes to their evolution. Receiving certain nutrients, everything has an effect as it does outside of the womb.
You have not said anything profound.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THEY HAVE DESIRES?
Also, should I assume that you don't kill insects or ANY living creature.
Should I assume that you are a vegan?
Have you bought your ticket yet to walk on glass for the real children who we KNOW desire to live???
You see you say all of this and you don't have to do a single thing. You body is unhampered. Your worst day of food poisoning doesn't compare to morning sickness. You just rattle on about something that you know nothing about.
Yes we are animals by the way. Also, are you aware that in the past most births were not live?
83 - Zedd
Paul2
Your comment about a women making a choice when she opens her legs sounds profound but it is lacking on many levels.
You have no idea the societal pressures that women are under. The manner in which you make your statement suggest that the decision making process is the same as with other things that we choose. It is not by any means. If it were, there would be very few births, even in married couples. There are a number of elements that contribute to women actually engaging in sex that don't have anything to do with passion or the act it self in any way that men don't understand. To over simplify this phenomenon is to choose to be ignorant about this matter. Were it as simple as your saying suggests, there would be very few unplanned pregnancies, just as there are few murders or other acts of impulse that have serious consequences. Surely a thinking man like yourself has considered that.
To actually say that a moment (and it often is just a moment) of confusion (for women its often confusion and not passion) should result in an entire lifetime of immensely unimaginable responsibility the extent to which most men cant comprehend, is odd at best and punitive to no measure.
You also seem to be over illuminating the relevance of existing. Being the human being that I am, I would not miss being me had I not been born. I don't understand what glory you think fetuses are missing out on. We are alive and we progress because we are here but we don't crave our daily existence or even feel appreciative of it. Yes we don't want to get injured or feel pain and discomfort but dreading the notion of ceasing to exist is not the challenge for us. It means nothing. That is why people had to create or highlight (depending on your belief system) the notion of HELL or reincarnation. If death just meant you stopped being then what would be the big deal really.
Now fetus don't know religion. So it doesn't seem to be that they would have the dread of ceasing to exist. Are their nerve ending developed to the extent that they would even feel pain prior to 12weeks? Fear of injury wouldn't exist.
I work with children in the inner city. It pains me just how many millions of lives just drift on day after day from birth until death. No one really cares about the meaningfulness of their lives, they just exist for the next pair of fancy tennis shoes and then some rims and then some jewelry and then a gold tooth and then a stable of women who they impregnate and then death.
One would think that those who see life to be so significant would be the greatest champions of promoting the notion of an abundant life for all who live. Getting volunteers to help with our work is so difficult because we don't want media recognition, we just want to do the work and to change lives, one child at a time.
84 - Zedd
Paul2
Please excuse the typos (tenses, plurals, etc.) My mind was zooming while trying to be mom all at once.
85 - Arch Conservative
AC: Drivel. A mother who gives a baby up for adoption is still a parent. And abortion still isn't murder.
No it's not murder in the sense that murder is an illegal act and currently abortions are legal. You have me on a technicality.
But it is however the unnecessary taking of a human life and all the tea and crumpet eating limeys and American liberals can deny it all they want but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
I hate to agree with Zedd and I'm amazed he didn't somehow work the issue of racism into his discussion of abortion, but there are a lot of people who just drift through life. However this does not mean they'd be better off is someone decided for them that they never had a life in the first place. It's the typical bullshit liberal argument...."life for a lot will suck so we might as well kill them anyway." This argument is quite hyporcritical coming from a lot that rants and raves about "personal choice." They believe others shouldn't make choices for women but then use an argument that says "we will make the ultimatum choice for those who cannot choose for themselves and we will choose to kill them because we believe they are better off that way."
The bottom line is that it is the taking of a life and you don't have a problem with it because either:
A. You don't believe it is a life because you are a fucking moron.
B. You believe it's a life but believe that preventing the mother's lifestyle from being cramped or compromised is more important because you have no soul.
86 - MBD
Zedd sedd:
"Yes we are animals by the way"
Yes we are animals... but that doesn't mean women should act like them by allowing someone to tear apart babies with beating hearts the way a crocodile would tear apart a baby that fell in the water.
Your bleeding heart for the poor is admirable but your disdain for the unborn is barbaric.
But stop connecting kids who were able to be born with those who are slaughtered. They are not in the same category. I don't know anyone who said, "I wish I had been aborted."
87 - Dave Nalle
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THEY HAVE DESIRES?
MBD knows they have desires because he can talk to them psychically. Dolphins too. And they all desire him.
Dave
88 - daryl d.
Although I'm really torn about the whole abortion issue, I wonder why wingnuts think abortion is bad but killing babies in Iraq is good.
89 - MBD
Dave -- Don't believe what the dolphins are telling you. You need more rest. And don't drink too much.
If that doesn't work, let me know.
90 - MBD
“I wonder why wingnuts think abortion is bad but killing babies in Iraq is good.;
To set the record straight..
Abortion is bad.
Killing babies in Iraq is bad.
Does that clear up your confusion?
If not, please provide the names of the wing nuts you're talking about so we can talk to them.
91 - Zedd
MBD
What you have said is that abortion is bad because you believe it is.
Off course if you believe it is, then you should stand up for your views vehemently in your life.
However since you don't have proof for why you believe what you believe, it only stands that you should leave people who don't believe as you do alone. There is nothing scientific to support your views. You just FEEL that they are babies, 1 inch, 1/3 ounce babies. If you bend the first notch of your index finger, that is the size of these "babies" that you are talking about.
Sperm is one phase (you don't value it). A zygote is another and an embryo is another and so on. None of these are babies. Those little tadpoles are cute under a microscope but you are not all sentimental about them. But because women are now involved(and you are off the hook) and because of the potential of the organism becoming a baby, you prematurely look at this embryo as a human.
From an emotional stand point, the idea of them is cute. They seem adorable but they are not human beings.
92 - MBD
"They seem adorable but they are not human beings."
What are they? Are they animals, plants or minerals? Or do you have another category you've discovered.
Are they plants? No.
Are they minerals? No.
So, they must be animals.
There are tens of thousands of different animals so I won't list them here. Look them up and make your selection.
Then get back to me.
I'll be waiting.
93 - Arch Conservative
"From an emotional stand point, the idea of them is cute. They seem adorable but they are not human beings."
Again... the topic of the post was partial birth abortions and at that stage they most certainly human beings.
94 - J.J. Hunsecker
I don't know anyone who said, "I wish I had been aborted."
That doesn't mean no one said it, as I'm guessing the insane, particularly the suicidal might very well have.
So how many children have you adopted so far, MDB?
95 - Zedd
MBD
Your bleeding heart for the poor is admirable but your disdain for the unborn is barbaric.
I have neither a bleeding heart for the poor nor disdain for the unborn.
I am confused as to why you must leap to extreme, cliches to converse about this topic. None of what you have stated is real. Not your knowledge of embryos desires, babies being ripped apart, my bleeding heart for the poor or my disdain for the unborn. Its all just an endless emotional ramble.
Perhaps you should sit down and determine what it is you really believe and why you believe it.
If it's that "it just doesn't SEEM right" or "It FEEls wrong to me". Then fair enough. But don't pretend to have science behind what you say because you will only weaken your position and destroy your credibility.
Whoever said that actually wanting to do something tangible about a situation that affects humans as opposed to just talking about it reflects a bleeding heart is childish. Its simply a defense mechanism for people who feel guilty for not being proactive about the issues that plague our society. I am Black. We have a gigantic problem. I left corporate America to address it. Bleeding heart? I don't understand.
I want the option to discontinue a pregnancy of an embryo or early fetus. How does that meld into a disdain for the unborn. The discontinuation would not come out of disdain for the embryo. That would be weird. It would come out of not wanting it to continue to develop into a human. For many the reason is because the woman would not be able to provide a life that is fitting for it. That is not disdain. Placing an individual on this planet who is expected to live 70+ years, putting them in a situation where they will endure the pain and challenges that come with life; a life that may not be wonderful because of not having a good foundation from the start, knowing that it is they who will pay the ultimate price alone, seems selfish. Also having a child when you are not a clear minded individual who is psychologically healthy and loving, is also VERY selfish. That individual can be anti choice all day long but they are selfish if they have a child.
96 - Zedd
Arch
The article was about how we don't have partial birth abortion but we have an epidemic of abortions.
Stop the usual theatrics and drama. No human beings are being killed.
97 - Zedd
MBD
What are they
They are embryos and or fetuses. Are you alright? Surely you weren't waiting for this response.
What do you call sperm? Do you call them human beings? Do you have little funerals for them with your partner or alone?
Sperm are a form at a certain stage so are embryo so are fetuses. None of which are human beings.
98 - Dave Nalle
Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate.
dave
99 - Clavos
Raiding the liquor cabinet again, Dave?
100 - MBD
“What are they? They are embryos and or fetuses.”
Correct.
And embryos and fetuses consist of human tissue just like the composition of your body.
All that you need to continue living is sustenance. And all that embryos and fetuses need to continue living is sustenance.
Some un-aborted embryos and fetuses embrace killing their own progeny while helpless.
It’s a battle between helpless embryos and fetuses and un-aborted embryos and fetuses.
As an un-aborted embryo and fetus you appear to fall into the category of those wanting to kill the helpless.
Killing the helpless is the worst form of barbarism.
101 - MBD
"Raiding the liquor cabinet again, Dave?"
I warned him about that.
But he just doesn't listen.
The question is whether he deserves sympathy or more admonishment.
102 - STM
Dave wrote: "Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate."
I'm in really deep shit, then.
103 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Bing (writing under the moniker "Arch Conservative") writes,
It's disgusting how those who perpetrate infanticide with unrestrained glee seek to frame every single abortion as a matter of choosing between the woman's life and health and the child's life.
Most abortions are not in fact decisions that weigh the mother's life against the baby. Most abortions are rather the mother deciding that she would rather murder her baby because she's "not ready" to have kids or "it's not the right time." Well guess what.........life throws curve-balls at all of us and a lot of the time we're wholly unprepared to deal with them. However, a decent person makes the right decision not the easy one. having and abortion is, in most cases, the epitome of selfishness.
First of all, Bing, I fixed your typos; you're welcome.
Your attitude comes of a society that is rich enough to feed every child born in it. In America, or Scandinavia, these arguments have some weight. This is why I feel that abortions should be done as a last resort, rather than a day-after birth control measure. Plus, there is a dehumanizing aspect to much of the "pro-choice" arguments. Note below:
The thing is--this ruling doesn't pertain only to viable fetuses. Now, by federal law, if I am a woman who is 13 weeks pregnant and my life is endangered by the pregnancy, and my doctor believes that a dilation and extraction abortion is necessary, it's now illegal.
It's disturbing to see people arguing the propaganda of "Partial Birth Abortion," when that's not what the law actually states and that's not the reality. That language is propaganda meant to mobilize people based on emotional appeals that are not based in fact.
A "viable fetus" is another way of saying, "an unborn baby that has a good chance of living if allowed to be born". The woman posting under the moniker "my body my choice" talks about a "procedure." The fact that a potential person's life is being snuffed out is not mentioned.
Having said all this, I cannot countenance the argument that abortion is always wrong unless it threatens the life of the mother. In a society rich enough to feed all the offspring resulting even from the irresponsible sexual practices of its members, this is a legitimate argument. In truly poor societies. Bing, your attitude assumes that the society is actually rich enough to feed all of its members and potential members. RIGHT NOW, this may be true of the United States. Bur it wasn't always so, and may not continue to be so.
The real issue here - the ones not addressed by either "pro-life" or "pro-choice" sides - is the issue of responsible sexual behavior. If sex results in AIDS, folks get scared and either abstain or do something to try and prevent catching a fatal disease. But if sex results in pregnancy, the solution is "end the pregnancy," (the "dis-ease") and continuing to copulate irresponsibly, literally "doing whatever the fuck they desire".
IN A POOR SOCIETY, there is real pain to ending a pregnancy. The baby may be wanted badly - but the parents (usually the mother) have to make a calculated decision as to which is crueller: allowing a baby to die of malnutrition, or ending its life before it has to suffer.
IMHO, ON BALANCE, the decision of the United States supreme court was a reasonable one. It did not overturn a "right" to abortions, but put a significant restriction on them, forcing those engaging in sex to think about the reasonable consequence of having sex - babies. That is fair - in a rich society, depriving a baby of a chance at life because it might inconvenience the life style of the mother is wrong.
104 - Zedd
MBD
You aren't making a good argument at all. Sorry to say. Again I suggest that you not attempt to use science or logic as a support for your stance. Your position is based on your emotions and nothing more. That is perfectly acceptable off course. However trying to make what you feel, fit into an already existing scientific order doesn't always work.
For instance I am a Christian. I know that it is irrational. I don't reason my way into my belief of the Divine. It is purely spiritual and emotional. Actually I feel that those who try to make science out of Christianity do it a disservice. It has greater profundity IMO.
Now as for your "argument", a tadpole is not a frog and vice verse.
A sperm is not a human and vice verse. However it is your prerogative to think so. It must be a challenge to name each of them and conduct a formal burial for each of them.
I suppose we should walk away from this "debate". Because what we are actually debating is what you FEEL and we can not debate that now can we.
105 - MBD
"Because what we are actually debating is what you FEEL and we can not debate that now can we"
Maybe you can't debate it... but I can.
You would do better if you stuck with the subject.
Partial Birth Abortion.
106 - J.J. Hunsecker
Since you have ignored the question, MBD, I'm guessing it's safe to assume you haven't adopted any children. If you aren't going to doing anything to help the children we have, spare us the hollow rhetoric about what we should do with the unborn.
Just because you have an overinflated view of man's place and worth in the universe, it doesn't mean everyone else should live their life accordingly.
107 - Zedd
MBD
I'll take that as a male version of conceding.
108 - MBD
I'm always amused by those who ASSUME what others do or do not do.
Like others who are mentally challenged, they cannot distinguish between fact and fantasy.
They attempt to debate an issue on its merits -- but when unable to do so in an intelligent way, they revert to spinning their fantasy.
109 - Zedd
MBD
I'll take that as a very male version of admitting defeat and wanting to throw a jab in there.
I'm done.
You sir are king of all sperm! Among all of the millions your swimming abilities were beyond all others. That buff tail of yours sent you far above all others. You sir are THE man!! You were a zygote among all others. There has never been a more exciting and attractive zygote. As an embryo, your sonogram stands out among others!! What a hunk! And now, what more can be said. Yum yum! You are the greatest. I bow to thee BWD! To thee I bow!
110 - J.J. Hunsecker
I'm always amused by those who can't answer a simple question, especially when the truth reveals what hypocrites they are.
111 - MBD
I'm always amused by those who ask irrelevant questions while trying to make a case for their inability to debate the issue at hand and then whine or spew asinine venom when their inability to debate is exposed.
112 - J.J. Hunsecker
Sounds like you amuse yourself a great deal.
113 - MBD
It usually happens when I encounter fools.
114 - Clavos
So who pissed furthest?
115 - J.J. Hunsecker
Please. You are the one who has shown yourself to be a phony and a fool, expecting others to live under your ideas while all you do is provide lip service. Although it's really no surprise considering your ego-centric views.
116 - Clavos
At the half, it's Hunsecker by a nose...
117 - MBD
"So who pissed furthest?"
I concede that J.J Hunsecker pissed the furthest.
J.J Hunsecker is a real pisser.
118 - Arch Conservative
JJ no one really cares for your bullshit retread leftists justifications of abortion. [Personal attack deleted]
I bet they'd love you at the daily KOS.
119 - Zedd
Wow you guys are doing quite a job of discussing abortion and pregnancy!!
Oh snap I forgot, you don't have much to say about the topic because you don't know what you are talking about.
120 - MBD
#68 Dave comments:
"You prefer the long, drawn out and painful infanticide of years of neglect and abuse and social disadvantage to disposing of the unwanted life humanely before it attains meaningful self-awareness.“
I never thought of it that way.
So, let's also get rid of 90% of the world's children just after birth because they most likely will experience years of neglect and abuse and social disadvantage.
Let's humanely put them out of their misery before they achieve meaningful self-awareness by drilling holes in their skulls and sucking out their brains. Or alternatively, douse them with chemicals and then chop them into pieces. On the other hand, it might be more efficient to simply gas them.
That will keep them from being unwanted. They will certainly appreciate being better off.
Your comment is not only sadistic, it’s idiotic.
121 - MBD
"Wow you guys are doing quite a job of discussing abortion and pregnancy!!
Oh snap I forgot, you don't have much to say about the topic because you don't know what you are talking about."
Zedd -- what do you know about the topic of war? How many wars have you fought in?
JJ stopped his pissing contest. How about you? Aw shit, I forgot. You're not equipped.
122 - Zedd
MBD
I don't discuss the details of war. I know nothing of the strategic engineering of war or combat and I dont talk about it. I don't care too either.
I do understand conflict and politics and their results. I do discuss those subjects.
Now move along.....
123 - troll
MBD - you base part of your argument on 'magical' thinking...
just like a suicide is not around to relish the pain his action has caused an aborted child cannot 'appreciate' anything
abortion only has to do with the living