The Supreme Court upheld a nationwide ban on partial birth abortions today in a 5-4 vote.
The Supreme Court upheld a nationwide ban on partial birth abortions today in a 5-4 vote. The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 which was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush received immediate challenges. The procedure at issue involves partially removing the fetus intact from a woman's uterus, then crushing or cutting its skull to complete the abortion.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Arch Conservative
"i dunno. i'm a liberal and i'm not too upset. there are better ways to abort. and how exactly does the media lose out because of this?"
The media loses out because tey are made up of leftists and this happens to be one of thier causes.
27 - zingzing
do you see the media crying over it? what's to cry over? they have a big story, which will cause some controversy and debate and there will be many, many people who have a job for another day because this happened. the media's "cause" is controversy, because that sells papers.
so, no, the media did not lose. they would have been just as happy to see it go the other way, but a story is a story. maybe certain members of the media were upset, but certain members of almost every group in america don't like this ruling.
still, it's not that big a thing. like i said, there are better ways to have an abortion, and if there isn't any medical reason why this practice should be legal, then... it SHOULD be illegal.
just like i'm a fan of painkillers, i don't want heroin being legal. you see?
28 - Arch Conservative
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this ruling whatsoever and anyone who wants to trot the old "they're trying to dictate women's health/infringe upon women's rights" argument is either:
A: A diehard leftist [Edited].
B: Currently making a killing off of killing innocent babies.
Both camps are the lowest of the low.
29 - MBD
I just can't imagine why anyone would be upset over having their brain sucked out and their skull crushed as they are about to leave a warm comfortable existence and have to breathe our polluted air for the first time.
I'll bet that if given the CHOICE most of us would have opted for the brain and skull job.
30 - Dave Nalle
MBD, fetuses can't make choices. Hell, 3 year olds can't make choices. Or are you comparing your decision making ability with that of an infant - hey, you may have a point there.
just like i'm a fan of painkillers, i don't want heroin being legal. you see?
I'm not a fan of painkillers at all, but I do think heroin should be legal. And I believe that for much the same reasons I support abortion - legalizing drugs and getting rid of unwanted potential children benefits society as a whole enormously and the mothers and drug addicts involved are willing participants in sacrificing for the good of all of us.
Dave
31 - zingzing
oh bah. you know what point i was trying to make.
actually, even if your pro-heroin argument is logical, i still don't want it to be legal, just because i doubt my own willpower to stay away from it.
32 - Arch Conservative
"legalizing drugs and getting rid of unwanted potential children benefits society as a whole enormously"
I thought you had some libertarian leanings Dave. You sure don't exhibit them with that little bit of verbal diarhea.
So the benfits to society outweigh an individual's right to exist? Well hell Dave why don't we just start killing all the mentally handicapped people who need society's resources, let's kill anyone without a job or who makes less than 40K a year.
Let's have a big ole' rootin tootin Dave Nalle Texas style killfest and murder anyone who doesn't meet the Nalle quota of societal contribution.
33 - MBD
I just can't imagine why Dave would be upset over having his brain sucked out and his skull crushed as he was about to leave a warm comfortable existence and have to breathe our polluted air for the first time.
I'll bet that if given the CHOICE Dave would have opted for the brain and skull job.
34 - Dave Nalle
I thought you had some libertarian leanings Dave. You sure don't exhibit them with that little bit of verbal diarhea.
Come again? I just endorsed peoples right to be free to choose to have a baby or not and to take drugs or not without government interference. What could be more Libertarian than that? The reason the LP has no official stand on abortion is that the party is split about 50-50 pro and anti. The question is how much you value human life and when you think it begins. I think life begins when you can live on your own, which is about half-way through pregnancy or a bit more. If you can't breathe on your own, you're not alive as far as I'm concerned, be you fetusboy or Terry Schiavo.
So the benfits to society outweigh an individual's right to exist?
No, but favoring the rights of individuals generally benefits society. Non-viable fetuses just aren't individuals. They can't be. They can only live in their mother's wombs, therefore they don't HAVE individual existence.
Well hell Dave why don't we just start killing all the mentally handicapped people who need society's resources, let's kill anyone without a job or who makes less than 40K a year.
Interesting proposition, but we need those people and they ARE functioning individuals at some level, at least. I don't advocate killing innocent animals either.
Let's have a big ole' rootin tootin Dave Nalle Texas style killfest and murder anyone who doesn't meet the Nalle quota of societal contribution.
Tempting, but as I said before, you've got my criteria backwards. It's the individual that matters, and taking care of the individual will lead to benefits for society.
Dave
35 - MBD
"It's the individual that matters, and taking care of the individual will lead to benefits for society."
And individuals come from fetuses.
Without fetuses there would be no individuals.
Why is that so hard to understand?
36 - Arch Conservative
"I just endorsed peoples right to be free to choose to have a baby or not and to take drugs or not without government interference. What could be more Libertarian than that?"
No... you didn't. Your exact words were...
"And I believe that for much the same reasons I support abortion - legalizing drugs and getting rid of unwanted potential children benefits society as a whole enormously"
You didn't endorse the use of drugs or abortion because you believe in personal freedom and liberty... you said you endorsed them because they would benefit society. Your words Dave.
That kind of collectivist thought is more reminiscent of Karl Marx than American libertarians Nalle.
37 - Michael J. West
Remember the days when the term "arch conservative" referred to people like Barry Goldwater, who was pro-choice, pro-gay-rights, called the religious right "a bunch of kooks," and called Iran-Contra "the goddamn stupidest foreign policy blunder this country's ever made"?
Ahh, days of yore....
38 - Servant
While I would not take it to the extremes that certain other have used in verbalizing their positions, I do not support abortions or euthanasia. When the federal government starts to legalize society as a whole, it sets a dangerous precedent for the future. Especially democratic republics, were the masses tend to be stupid. Not that I would want to kill them off or anything...
39 - MBD
"Remember the days when the term "arch conservative" referred to people like Barry Goldwater."
That is passé.
Today the arch-conservative refers to former German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now known as Pope Benedict XVI.
Catch up.
40 - Arch Conservative
Yes Michael and remember the days when Democrats were like JFK..they had traditional American values, believed America was a good place worth living in and fighting for, didn't blame America for the world's problems, didn't cater to illegal aliens, didn't sympathize with terrorists, didn't play racial politics at the drop of a hat.......
ah the days of yore!
41 - MBD
And remember the days when Republicans were like Dwight Eisenhower... they had traditional American values, believed America was a good place worth living in and fighting for but didn't try to control the rest of the world, and didn't cater to the military-industrial complex.
42 - Zedd
I find it funny that all these men are standing up for the unborn and won't spend enough time with their own kids. Don't bother to say you do. Lets ask your wives.
43 - MBD
I find it funny that strangers know what others do for their kids. Don't bother to say you know because you don't.
44 - Arch Conservative
"I find it funny that all these men are standing up for the unborn and won't spend enough time with their own kids. Don't bother to say you do. Lets ask your wives."
As MBD said Zedd....
How the fuck would you know how much time the pro life posters on here spend with their kids?
45 - Zedd
MBD
I say, lets ask your wives for those of you who have one.
The point is that men don't typically do the raising of children in society. I was hoping that you would be able to ascertain the larger meaning of my post instead of being so literal. I expect it from Arch, he has demonstrated his intellectual parameters. I ignore most of the time. But YOU? I must have hit a sore spot.
You are right, I don't know anyone on these boards. I know that men don't raise the children in society (not talking about isolated cases).
Not you specifically ....... but if you are so pro life how about being pro raising also. From day one, don't relinquish any activities to the mom. Know that everything is your job. Wipe the buggers, give the lunch money, wipe boo boos, tell them about puberty, go to the school and check up on them. Know who all of their friends are, bake cookies and cup cakes with them, do soccer or t-ball, know all of those parents, know all of the kids on the street and their parents, teach them how to cook, teach them about dating in detail, talk to them about french kissing and sex, sign all of the permission slips, know what field trips they are going on and what they need to take, know who they have a crush on, know who picks on them at school, buy valentines cards, check their homework, cook meals for them, know the way they like their peanut butter sandwich, know where they hide their dirty clothes, wash their laundry, and so on. Know all of this on your own without your wife getting you caught up. You start and take responsibility fully. Women do this without even thinking. This is not even the hard part.
If you want women to have all of the babies that they are impregnated with, be prepared to be on top of things when the child gets here. Dont be a bump on a log goofing around and getting in the way dozing in and out of parenthood and assuming that everything is being taken care of... by the one who cooked this person in her body and had the child squeezed out of her in the most painful way imaginable.
46 - Zedd
Arch
From the way that you conduct yourself on these boards, one can only hope that you don't spend that much time with kids.
47 - MBD
Zedd, i don't care if a woman crawls on broken glass to take care of her kids, that doesn't give her the right to kill any she doesn't want.
And I repeat:
I find it funny that you as a stranger know what others do for their kids. Don't bother to say you know because you don't.
In any case, the issue here is killing, not caring.
48 - Arch Conservative
I expect it from Arch, he has demonstrated his intellectual parameters."
And you have demonstrated your intellectual limits as well. Your MO is blaming everything on racism in America.
49 - Zedd
MBD
I didn't say I know what you do. Are you alright?
I said I KNOW that women are the ones who raise children in society. If you argue that point, you are simply displaying your desire to just dive into the ridiculous in a rather sophomoric way. When my daughter who is now in high schools starts to argue with silly useless points, I tell her not to be a 7th grader because at that age they get really smart alecky because they are discovering a little logic and they make really stupid embarrassing points when its just not necessary. MBD, don't be a 7th grader.
Also I don't see a fetus as a human being. So to me, its not killing a human being. and YES its quite clear that you DON'T care if a woman has to walk on broken glass. That IS the problem. Perhaps this is not your decision or discussion to have. It doesn't affect YOU.
Why don't you go to Darfur and concern yourself with living and breathing babies that are suffering and dying. Go to the streets of Kenya and Manila and rescue those children. Why don't you walk on broken glass for THE CHILDREN.
50 - MBD
"I don't see a fetus as a human being. So to me, its not killing a human being."
You don't see well.
If your argument is that the fetus is not viable, i.e., not having the ability to grow, expand and develop if left without assistance, then that means that the life of any child under an age where it can support itself can be terminated.
An unborn child may not be a fully developed human being but in a 'Partial Birth Abortion' the fetus being aborted has a beating heart and the other organs human beings have. All it doesn't have that other children have is a chance to live.
Woman want the 'choice' to kill, all the unborn want is the 'chance' to live.
The difference is killing versus living.
Other bitches in the animal world that kill their young are African hunting dogs where a dominant female tries to kill the pups of another female, and kangaroos that can have more than one young at different stages of development. If the mother cannot suckle them she removes one from the pouch and its life is aborted.
Any female who kills her young is no different than a bitch in the wild.
51 - J.J. Hunsecker
"Other bitches in the animal world that kill their young are African hunting dogs where a dominant female tries to kill the pups of another female, and kangaroos that can have more than one young at different stages of development. If the mother cannot suckle them she removes one from the pouch and its life is aborted."
Then it sounds like abortion is part of the natural order of the universe.
52 - Lumpy
MBD. The unborn don't want anything. They have no knowledge or experience on which to base wanting or not wanting anything. [Edited]
53 - MBD
"it sounds like abortion is part of the natural order of the universe"
It is?
How so?
When the percent occurrence is infinitesimal it is hardly part of the natural order.
How far did you go in school?
54 - MBD
"The unborn don't want anything. They have no knowledge or experience on which to base wanting or not wanting anything"
Are you speaking from medical knowledge or ignorance?
Research programs beginning at 12 weeks of gestation, sought to maximize fetal potential. Test results show definite physical, mental, and emotional advantages to those in stimulated groups. These babies showed significantly greater height and head circumference, fine and gross motor performance, and speech and language acquisition. They also smiled and laughed in the first week after birth--something rarely seen in babies.
Have you heard of learning by osmosis?
Obviously not.
So don’t waste any more of my time.
55 - Dave Nalle
Learning my osmosis? LOL. You mean like putting your school books under your pillow and magically waking up knowing everything they contain?
No wonder you have these goofy beliefs.
Dave
56 - Clavos
When the percent occurrence is infinitesimal it is hardly part of the natural order.
By definition, if it occurs in nature AT ALL, it's part of the natural order. The degree to which it occurs is irrelevant
57 - MBD
Dave, you are the one with goofy beliefs.
That has been demonstrated time and time again.
58 - MBD
Clavos, you are more goofy than your mentor.
59 - Clavos
Thank you, MBD.
60 - A Concerned Citizen
Zedd, #45
Women do this without even thinking
Gee, does that mean women are biologically hard-wired that way? Does that mean it's natural for them to be raising kids? And having kids? And taking care of kids? Hmmmm. Maybe men are biologically inclined to act a certain way too. Maybe millions of years spent in the wild predisposed our genders to function in certain, different roles.
But you know, if people are so willing to kill their own babies, maybe we never really got out of the wild.
61 - Clavos
Women do this without even thinking
...Naw...I can't...too easy...nah...
62 - A Concerned Citizen
Haha I took it, Clavos
63 - MBD
#57 "By definition, if it occurs in nature AT ALL, it's part of the natural order. The degree to which it occurs is irrelevant"
Can you spell D-E-V-I-A-N-T?
Life begins when there is a heartbeat. That is a sure sign of life and it is clear evidence of life without having to breathe air.
Saying that life doesn't begin until an infant breathes air assumes that breathing air is a necessary sign of life. As long as a baby in inside its mother it doesn’t need to breathe air. Just because a baby gets its oxygen from its mother doesn’t mean it isn’t alive,
Face it.
Those who kill their young are deviants. Always have been, always will be.
Q.E.D.
64 - Clavos
Deviants are part of nature too, MBD.
Geniuses are deviants.
Imbeciles are deviants.
Conjoined twins are deviants.
7' 6" roundball players are deviants.
All part of nature, and none evil.
65 - MBD
But killers are deviants. Especially killers of the most innocent.
66 - Clavos
But killers are deviants.
Then ALL of nature is deviant. Virtually ALL of nature, including man, kills regularly and repeatedly; for food, for territory, for defense, even for play, as cats do.
My cats kill birds frequently when I let them out into the yard. They're not deviants; it's in their genes; that's one of the things cats DO.
67 - MBD
The subject here is abortion -- so let's focus on baby killers.
I see you get confused easily.
68 - Dave Nalle
The subject here is abortion -- so let's focus on baby killers.
Well, if you want to change the subject, then fine.
Let's talk about the dismayingly frequent cases of teenagers giving birth to unwanted infants and throwing them in dumpsters or leaving them in the girls room at the prom, or leaving them to be raised by grandparents, or neglecting them or letting them be killed by a frustrated and abusive unmarried father. Need I go on?
You prefer the long, drawn out and painful infanticide of years of neglect and abuse and social disadvantage to disposing of the unwanted life humanely before it attains meaningful self-awareness. I get it. You're a sadist.
Dave
69 - Arch Conservative
I'm sorry Dave but your whole last argument was bullshit.
First of all where is the evidence that supports your assertion that women throw their babies in dumpsters or leave them at the prom so frequently. Nationally the number of times we hear of this happening per year can be counted on one hand. But maybe you have evidence of the hundreds of cases where this has happened and we just havne't heard about it.
Secondly......there are no guarentees for happiness or well being for any person that is born into any family or set of circumstances yet you assume that a child will definitely have a miserable existence if he/she is born to a woman that may not be fully prepared to have that child and that based on this assumption the child would be better off not having the right to be born in the first place.
So in essence you think it's OK to play god based on your preconceived notions which have absolutely nothing to do with reality.
I don't know about you Dave. Sometimes you make very well thought, reasoned points and other times you approch Moonraven-like levels of idiocy.
70 - MBD
"Well, if you want to change the subject, then fine."
No. I don't want to change the subject.
Let's keep Abortion as the subject.
The subject is killing the unborn because they get their oxygen from a source other than air.
Life begins when there is a heartbeat. That is a sure sign of life and it is clear evidence of life.
How did your subject of dumpsters, etc., get injectsd here?
71 - troll
so abortion is ok until the heart develops sufficiently to beat - ?
72 - Christopher Rose
All these heartfelt arguments about living or killing miss the point , it is a woman's right to choose if she wants to become a parent or not.
It's not playing god, whatever that means, it's about choices.
73 - A Concerned Citizen
it is a woman's right to choose if she wants to become a parent or not.
She she make the choice before she opens her legs, not the baby's head.
74 - A Concerned Citizen
*She should
Sorry about that, guys :)
75 - Christopher Rose
You appear to have confused sex with birth control - and debate with shock tactics.