Christian support of illegal immigrants is dangerous to both the security, and economic stability of the United States.
There is a huge difference between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants pay taxes, learn our language, and contribute to the United States as a whole. I support legal immigration, and this article is not intended to speak against legal immigrants or legal immigration.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Arch Conservative
How were you to know Anonumous?
Well maybe it might be a good idea if you actually read someone else's post before responding directly to them?
Ever think of that?
27 - Richard Brodie
I do not think it would be a good idea to bring all these people into the U.S.
Why not? Are these impoverished less worthy of being "reached out to" than impoverished Mexicans? How can you be so discriminatory and heartless?
28 - Jinger Jarrett
If I were advocating the state above all, I would have supported the bill in Congress.
I don't believe that you can separate your belief system from who you are.
Dispute the facts, Anonymous. Your emotional arguments are weak, and the fact that you don't post your name tells me you are afraid.
I expected criticism from this. There will always be those who criticize without offering any real arguments.
What I was hoping for here was a spirited debate over this issue.
29 - zingzing
"Jesus never shrunk from telling people when they were in sin."
that, if he really did exist as such, was his right. it's not yours.
you go about condemning your fellow christians for following christian teachings of reaching out to your fellow man. if nothing else, their hearts are in the right place. maybe they aren't being good americans, you could say that, but you can't say they aren't being good christians.
you, on the other hand, are judging people on a religious level for political reasons. that's crazy. you do not represent anything that is good about christianity (at least in this case).
i'm not gonna say you're a bad person, because i don't know you, and because people are entitled to their opinion; but, even as someone who doesn't know shit about christianity, i understand it enough to know that you are perverting what goodness it has left.
30 - anonymous
How were you to know Anonumous? Well maybe it might be a good idea if you actually read someone else's post before responding directly to them? Ever think of that?
In comment 11, it was attributed to you. You did not deny it until I brought it up. Yes, I read. Do you?
31 - anonymous
the fact that you don't post your name tells me you are afraid.
Damn straight. The christians here are xenophobic, hostile and downright threatening. Are you new here?
32 - zingzing
yeah, she just got back from her conference with jesus, where he told her what he would do about them fuckin mexicans. he conferred with her. and told her that other christians have no fuckin clue.
33 - anonymous
Why not? Are these impoverished less worthy of being "reached out to" than impoverished Mexicans? How can you be so discriminatory and heartless?
I was referring to the illegals already here. I do not promote amnesty. I gave you my solution, it is a good partial solution to the whole problem. Certainly better than anything advocated under the name of your Lord here and certainly more in line with His principles.
34 - Richard Brodie
They come here for jobs. Create the jobs there. Then they will go back on their own.
That will never happen. The only reason America is still comparatively properous (though decliningly so) is because of the incredible amount of wealth that was brough into existence during a couple of hundred year period that ended nearly a century ago - our golden age of unfettered, untaxed, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism.
The ever accelerating destruction of our standard of living is because of how we have increasingly turned to welfare statism (which includes both individual and corporate "welfare"). And it is this corrupt system after which Mexico would pattern any "reformation" of its own version of corruption - thereby rendering that country impotent to generate the levels of properity necessary to raise its own people's standard of living to the point where they would stop eyeing America with envy.
35 - Jinger Jarrett
You are misinformed. Dictionary.com says a xenophobe is: A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.
Flame Warriors describes it this way:
Xenophobe is usually a long-term discussion forum participant and he thinks of the forum as his private compound. Xenophobe regards new forum arrivals as mentally deficient and perhaps even having criminal tendencies, and they are invariably approached with suspicion and condescension. Xenophobe will mount a furious attack if a Newbie has the temerity to make critical observations about the forum's social dynamics, or questions its prevailing opinions.
redwing.hutman.net
Again, dispute the facts of what I am saying. Explain to me why my taxes should go to support illegals when we have people here who are suffering and need help.
You've never addressed this. Unfortunately, you have resorted to a typical liberal tactic: name calling.
It's always easier than dealing with the facts.
Please refrain from using vulgar language here. It's unbecoming. It also demonstrates that you are the one who is really hostile.
36 - Richard Brodie
anonymous, why do you refuse to answer my question? Let me give you another chance:
Why do you not want to "reach out" to the truly impoverished billions around the world, and bring them all to America so they don't have to be left in their "corrupt nations filled with poverty" to "fend for themselves." Are they less worthy
37 - Arch Conservative
Damn straight. The christians here are xenophobic, hostile and downright threatening. Are you new here?
This idiot shows his true colors. I don't see any Chrisitians threatening him or anyone else on this sight.
He's just an ignorant run of the mill Christophobe.
38 - Mark Adams
I'm struggling to find a Christian application, one way or other, to the issue of immigration. It's a public policy matter. If by consensus America wants to shut down its borders and jail every illegal immigrant, fine (that would be a little difficult to pull off and would call into question our tacit approval of illegal immigration, but I won't argue that point). If by consensus we want to open the borders completely, that's fine too. I don't see anything in my reading of the Bible that suggests borders are a theological concern.
Some of the issues you address are valid--security and the burden on our welfare system--but none are biblical.
If you consider that the apostles crossed into many lands, sometimes unwelcome, I think you will find that they did not violate a biblical principle.
39 - anonymous
Dictionary.com says a xenophobe is: A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.
That describes the Christians here. I'm not new here.
anonymous, why do you refuse to answer my question?
I answered your question Richard. But you hear only what you want to hear. I do not support amnesty for the illegals here, I do not support bringing more here, I do not support being taken advantage of. Is that simple enough for you to understand? I support a solution that you cannot see.
Go ahead and condemn the tired and poor huddled masses in the name of your Lord, that's the only answer you want to hear.
--
They come here for jobs. Create the jobs there. Then they will go back on their own.
That will never happen.
You can put a McDonalds on a Saudi Arabian street corner, or sell Levis jeans and rap music in Turkey but you cannot create a job in Mexico.
Okay, condemn away in the name of your Lord. Nothing else will suffice.
40 - ann
"When we support illegal immigrants, we are aiding and abetting criminals, which is a crime."
By this you condemn the whole church...and since they are committing a crime, they are criminals. The pastors, fathers, priests, ...including the Pope. How rightwing selfrighteous can you be?
41 - Baronius
As a Catholic, I've seen religion injected into the immigration issue on the opposite side. Many hispanic-oriented charities lean politically liberal, and consider immigration an issue of social justice. There's no doubt that some employers take advantage of their power over the immigrant worker (legal or illegal). While I don't see immigration as a religious matter, human rights are.
I oppose illegal immigration, and favor restrictions on legal immigration. I like the idea of this article, showing that a Christian can favor tight immigration laws. But Jinger seems to turn Christianity into a belief in taking care of our own. That goes too far. Remember the good Samaritan: our aid and our love must go to all men.
42 - Jinger Jarrett
I spent 18 months in the Catholic church. I rejected Catholicism.
I'm not Catholic. I am, however, a Christian. I have read the Bible, cover to cover, and I've read it more than one time.
How many of you have read the Bible, or are you just lazy skeptics?
The Pope has no authority to me or over me. However, he claims to be a Christian. That makes him fair game.
Can you show me in the Bible where it says it is OK to break the law?
The Bible says not to steal. It also says not to covet. Isn't that what these people are doing when they take welfare benefits, Medicaid, medical care, and and all of the other government benefits they get? They didn't work for it. They didn't pay for it, yet we are supposed to just hand them what we have worked for?
Aren't the vast majority of Mexicans, which is the vast majority of illegal immigrants, Catholic? Aren't Catholics supposed to be Christian? If this is true, do Catholics only follow the Bible when it's convenient?
43 - Deep Thought
If you were really Christian...you would forgive them for their illegal acts...show a little compassion towards their plight...and pray to God someone would help you in a similar circumstance.
44 - Bliffle
"How many of you have read the Bible, or are you just lazy skeptics?"
I'm a skeptic, and not lazy. I've read the bible many times, and will read it again. It's freely available everywhere, and the King James version is excellent literature, thanks to Alexander Pope and others. One time, stranded with my wife in a hotel in a town with no other source of amusement, except to play The Beast With Two Backs (again), I used the room bible to read some psalms and The Song Of Solomon to her. She was amazed at the force and beauty of the language! Though a person of literature, her lifelong catholicism had ensured her isolation from and harshness toward, the bible.
I love the literary superlatives of the bible, but I don't believe it is gods word, or anything other than familiar stories.
45 - anonymous
Isn't that what these people are doing when they take welfare benefits, Medicaid, medical care, and and all of the other government benefits they get? They didn't work for it. They didn't pay for it, yet we are supposed to just hand them what we have worked for?
An illegal does not get welfare. Should an illegal abuse the system and get welfare (which is different than free medical care), then they are breaking another law and it should be stopped. Medical care should NOT be contingent upon citizenship or ability to pay. THAT is hardcore anti-Christian.
Can you show me in the Bible where it says it is OK to break the law?
I don't think anybody here is saying it's okay to break the law. However, taking the role of Judgement upon yourself and determining who gets medical treatment or not has got to be a far bigger sin.
If this is true, do Catholics only follow the Bible when it's convenient?
I don't know about that, but I can tell you that the majority of American citizens who profess to be Christian pick and choose the parts of the Bible they wish to adhere to.
46 - Bryan McKay
They didn't pay for it, yet we are supposed to just hand them what we have worked for?
What do you think the illegal immigrants do, sit around on their asses and collect checks? The illegal immigrants work too. They may not pay taxes, but they contribute significantly to our economy and they make up a valuable segment of our workforce.
As to the danger to American jobs and well-being, I suggest you read this: an open letter on immigration drafted by a group of economists. It may not change your mind, but it's important to look at the situation from a variety of viewpoints before you make a judgment. I understand much of your arguments, but I think under scrutiny they fall apart. They seem to be mostly emotional arguments, but when faced with reality, they don't always make as much sense as we'd like to think.
47 - Jinger Jarrett
To help these people at the expense of law abiding Americans who truly need it IS NOT COMPASSION.
This has nothing to do with forgiveness. Forgiveness is about giving up the right to take revenge for being wronged. Revenge belongs to God, not to me.
This is about forcing these people to observe the laws of this country and to respect the sovereignty of the United States.
To allow these people to violate the law of this country and do nothing about it, not only is a crime against the United States, but it also violates what the Bible says about respecting those in authority, as well as the government.
This violates Romans 13, and as a Christian, I cannot do that.
You must not be a Christian, and I don't believe you have ever read the Bible. If you had, you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous statement.
48 - anonymous
This is about forcing these people
Now that's the type of Christianity we know and love here.
49 - Jinger Jarrett
Bryan,
The problem with this letter on immigration is that it has a major flaw: it doesn't separate illegal immigration from legal immigration.
I stated in my article that I have nothing against legal immigration, or did you miss that part?
This letter also didn't dispute any of the statistics I quoted on medicine, education, or anything else.
Nice try, but it's weak.
50 - CK
In 1982 Perdue chicken paid a meat cutter $19 dollars an hour. Now they hire illegals and pay only $9. Who's kidding who, illegal immigration drives down wages and increases taxes. Leprosy cases last year rose to 9,000, drug resistant TB on the rise, Hepititis A, B, and C on the rise, Chagas disease. The increase of 66 million people over the next 20 years will bankrupt SS, Medicade and Medicare. Higher taxes of course the strapped Middle class will have to bear the brunt of paying. Overcrowded schools, strain on our natural resources, 25 percent of our prisons are filled with illegal immigrants, drop out rates of illegals are also high. Out of wedlock births, Low skilled, uneducated people is not what I call a step in the right direction. I would rather Have 5 million legal immigrants from all over the world who are highly skilled, healthy, obey the law, learn English beforehand, and can show they will not be a burden to our society by signing up for social services when they enter the country. Not to mention respecting our Flag, and the people in the country they have just joined.
I hate it when people play the race card. This is an economic issue at it's root core. I have even heard that when some Mexican's go back to Mexico city they are faced with the same resentment of taking jobs from the ones that stayed. It goes both ways all over the world. It's an economic job war.
51 - sr
NUKE THE UNBORN GAY OCTOPUSSEY'S.
52 - Jet in Columbus
SR I love it when you get all intellectual
53 - sr
ME TOO.
54 - Richard Brodie
anonymous: I answered your question Richard. But you hear only what you want to hear. I do not support amnesty for the illegals here, I do not support bringing more here, I do not support being taken advantage of. Is that simple enough for you to understand? I support a solution that you cannot see.
Still you refuse to answer my question. I asked you:
WHY do you not want to "reach out" to the truly impoverished billions around the world, and bring them all to America so they don't have to be left in their "corrupt nations filled with poverty" to "fend for themselves."
(the quotes are your own words)
Now pay real close attention. The first word in my question is not "Whether". It is "Why"
So don't just keep repeating THAT you're not in favor of doing this. Answer WHY you are not in favor of doing this.
Is that simple enough for you to understand?
This is the last chance you're going to get. If you continue evading and dodging, then I shall explain to everyone why it is that you are afraid to give a straight answer.
55 - Richard Brodie
Medical care should NOT be contingent upon citizenship or ability to pay. THAT is hardcore anti-Christian.
Free medical care for illegals has already put countless hospitals OUT OF BUSINESS in California and Arizona. Now American citizens are having to choose to forgo medical care, because they cannot afford to pay the sky high prices hospitals have to charge to make up for having to give so much free medical care to illegal aliens.
How "Christian" is it of these illegal aliens to be causing American citizens to have to go without needed hospital care, so they can have it instead?
56 - anonymous
then I shall explain to everyone why it is that you are afraid to give a straight answer.
You know my heart? Not likely. I am curious as to what you think my stance is.
The first word in my question is not "Whether". It is "Why"
Because it doesn't solve the problem. If you put 5 billion people on this continent, you won't fix their situation. I am not in favor of that, of open borders or of amnesty for the illegals here. I have answered your question three times now, but you see only what you want to see.
57 - anonymous
How "Christian" is it of these illegal aliens to be causing American citizens to have to go without needed hospital care, so they can have it instead?
It's not Christian of them at all. What does that have to do with YOU living by your Christian ideals? Absolutely nothing.
58 - anonymous
Now they hire illegals and pay only $9.
And why is nobody promoting the remedy of targeting the employers? Would people come here for jobs if nobody hired them because the fines were too great?
Of course, it's much easier and apparently more Christian to target the hungry worker rather than the rich employer.
59 - Richard Brodie
If you put 5 billion people on this continent, you won't fix their situation.
Thank you. You finally answered my question. Even people who think 100 million new Mexicans can be allowed in without disastrous consequences over the next 50 years, are not so completely out of touch with reality that they cannot appreciate that 5 billions could not possibly be accomodated.
you won't fix their situation.
How very revealing. The only reason you're against such insanity is because it wouldn't benefit THEM. Nevermind the destruction it would wreak on AMERICAN citizens, about whom you obviously don't give a flying fuck.
So it all really boils down to a question of what population one thinks is appropriate for this nation. I for one think we are ALREADY about a hundred billion too many.
60 - anonymous
When Jesus was handed a coin with Ceasar's head on it, he said to "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and render unto God what is God's." Jesus was telling us that we had to respect the authority of government officials, as well as render unto the government what belongs to the government.
Actually, it's merely your opinion as to what he was telling us. You weren't there, you can't know what he meant. If all he was telling you was to respect the authority of the government, then why say render unto God what is God's?
What belongs to the government that does NOT belong to God, as your interpretation clearly implies?
Render unto the government what BELONGS to the government? And what would that be? What belongs to the government? The government is of the people and for the people. So who has true ownership? The people or the government? Does the coin belong to the government? Is the coin Caesar's? If so, then he's saying we should not give it to the Church because it doesn't belong there. It goes to Caesar.
My point being, your whole philosophy on how to handle this is simple based on an opinion, an interpretation and not fact.
Most people I know of, define 'render unto Caesar what is Caesars and render unto God what is Gods as a command to keep religion out of politics.
A very different interpretation than buttkissing the State.
61 - anonymous
Even people who think 100 million new Mexicans can be allowed in without disastrous consequences
If you are referring to me, you are off base as usual, because that is not my sentiment.
The only reason you're against such insanity
Who died and made you Jesus? You're wrong, you know.
62 - Arch Conservative
Is this anonymous idiot still talking?
63 - Jeff
In reference to #6 - who would know more about steaming piles of dung than you, Arch? ;-)
64 - Jinger Jarrett
Anonymous,
You still haven't provided any information, statistics, or anything of value to dispute my position.
Actually, I did back up my position. You can scroll up to see it. Read Romans Chapter 13. It's very clear.
However, you don't seem to be here to contribute anything of any real value anyway. Your posts lack credibility because you won't even reveal who you are. You seem to be here to do nothing more than stir up trouble.
When I wrote my article, I knew I would face criticism from people like you. No big deal. Richard and CK provided some excellent posts to this thread and at least attempted to stimulate discussion, which is what I wanted.
One of the things that I should have pointed out here is that when the when the House passed its version of the bill in December 2005, they made it a felony to aid and abet illegal immigrants, which, by the way, was already a crime.
My problem with non Christians is that they want to hold Christians to a higher standard than anyone else. We are no less, or no more, human, and infallible than anyone else.
The purpose of my article was to hold accountable Christians who aid and abet these illegal immigrants. Not only are illegal immigrants so too are Christians who help them.
So we've come full circle. Now, provide us with a valid, coherent, intelligible, spirited, and intellectual argument for your stance, whatever that is. Dispute what I've said.
As you have demonstrated, it takes zero intellect to nitpick.
65 - Michael J. West
All of the terrorists on 9/11 were illegal immigrants even though many immigrated here legally.
Absolutely incorrect. EVERY 9/11 hijacker entered legally. Of those, only ONE hijacker's visa had expired on 9/11, but (1) it was pending renewal, and (2) he wasn't a pilot, just muscle. If he had been escorted to the border when his visa expired, it would have been great, but it would have done nothing at all to stop 9/11 from happening.
If you want to use national security as an aspect of the illegal immigration issue, that's perfectly legit. But you should have your facts straight. Using bad information about the 9/11 hijackers actually damages your argument.
66 - zingzing
jj-i pity anyone who has to deal with you. if you follow all of the rules laid down in the bible, and, as you seem to here, judge anyone who does not follow them as well, you must hate everybody, every "god damned" soul on this earth.
you say you follow the bible. why do you ignore the good parts, about compassion and pity and "judge not?" what's wrong with those parts? why does that not figure into your argument? what the hell does the bible say about americans? immigration? NOTHING. there is no direct reference to this problem.
religion is a personal thing. you aren't going to save or change the world with it. if you are going to let your religion guide you, let it guide you on a personal basis, within yourself and outwards toward individuals, not whole peoples.
like someone else said, your sin, your transgression is far worse (how dare you judge 12 million people?) than anything the average illegal immigrant does. you're just a liar and a bigot, wrapping yourself up in your self-rightous bullshit and arrogance.
say what you will about illegal immigration, but don't couch it in these terms. you claim to be a christian, but your words make you sound like the devil. you make a mockery of your supposed faith.
67 - Casey
You seem to have done very little research on this recent blog. First off, illegal immigrants most certainly do pay taxes, thanks to many programs from the IRS, and since illegal immigrants can't own their own homes, the rent that goes to their landlord gets taxed. It's a little thing we like to call property taxes. Not to mention, illegal immigrants are less of a burden on our economy than many people born and raised in the United States. They use virtually no social programs, since they're afraid of being deported, and yet again, pay taxes. I'm so sick of this "They're a burden on our economy" argument.
68 - Arch Conservative
[Edited]
The fact is that they are a drain on our economy. Between healthcare, non-payment of taxes, utilization of services and crime they cost this nation farmore than they give to it.
[Edited]
So spin it how you want but the facts just aren't on the side of your [Edited] argument.
69 - zingzing
go take a crap, bing.
70 - Jet in Columbus
Casey, can I be a "Pople" too? Can you post a brochure?
71 - Casey
Wow Arch. You seem angry! Why? Because you, yourself, don't have any facts? You're so obsessed with your little idea that illegal immigrants are bad, gay marriage is bad, and other conservative "ideals" that facts just won't get in your way, huh?
signonsandiego.com
csmonitor.com
latimes.com
Take a look at those. I look forward to your "liberal media" argument.
[Whilst I look forward to you learning how to make urls active, Casey. Thank you. Comments Editor]
72 - Casey Lunkley
Jet, I'm really not sure where the "Pople" thing comes from. I assumed you were childishly referring to a typo, but since I never typed the word "Pople", I think you're just being moronic.
Care to elaborate?
73 - Arch Conservative
nctimes.com
cis.org
usgov.info
There you go casey)
[Archie, go learn how to make links active before posting any more. Thanks. Comments Editor]
74 - Casey Lunkley
No comment on my articles?
That's funny!
75 - Arch Conservative
You're articles basically say that there are some illegals paying taxes but they do not address the larger picture which is total costs versus total benefits of illegals. Mine do.
Happy reading.