Mediation of the Honduran situation by President Arias may well be a good thing.
The selection of Costa Rican President Arias to mediate the dispute between former Honduran President Zelaya and the Government of interim President Micheletti appears to have been a wise one. It may be useful to speculate a bit about why and by whom President Arias was selected, as well as about the likely impact of these things on the power of Venezuelan President Chávez in Latin America.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Cindy
Clav,
Please provide evidence for your claims: but the improvement afforded them by their employment, miserable as it may seem to you and me, in a maquiladora is substantial for them.
I keep myself very informed about the circumstances of people around the world. I will put this topic on my list to write about.
77 - Clavos
So you choose to remain here, yet you say, Once a person is aware of what needs to be done, one can only do one's best to move toward doing that.
I submit that by remaining here you are not "doing your best" to move the world toward your ideals, and are in fact greatly weakening your arguments against Capitalism and even leaving yourself vulnerable to charges of hypocrisy.
78 - Clavos
Cindy,
Please provide evidence for your claims: "but the improvement afforded them by their employment, miserable as it may seem to you and me, in a maquiladora is substantial for them."
I've a better idea: you find evidence that they are NOT better off than they were at home on the ejidos; evidence that, against all reason, they stupidly left home, moved to the maquiladora free zones and took maquiladora jobs to worsen their lives.
79 - Franco
14 - Cindy
Dan(Miller),
Don't you know anyone who isn't white, who has an opinion?
15 - roger nowosielski
But those opinions don't matter, Cindy.
Ah, two liberals playing the race card. A classic progressive canard as they prove their need to keep its flames burning.
80 - roger nowosielski
You've been a missing person, buddy. So somebody's got to do the job in your stead.
81 - Dan(Miller)
Cindy, as a "white" (in whatever sense you may have used the word in Comment # 14) lady in the United States, with a computer and time to use it, and therefore at least a peripheral member of the "elite," who is (I assume) not one of the native born Mexican Maquiladora factory workers or the sweatshop laborers living and working there, you elect to express apparently strongly held opinions on their condition. You say, in Comment #25, I am interested only in the specific opinions of born and raised Hondurans. Is there something really different about the people in Mexico, or is ideology a sufficient basis for your assertions?
In Comment #36, you say,
If I want to know about something, I prefer to get the opinion of those directly affected to form my opinions.
I am very certain about one thing. I don't trust opinions from anyone who would not do likewise.
Well, I suppose. I liked this slogan: "When I refuse to forget. When I refuse to stay silent. I resist." Should I ever have a car with sufficiently bumper space, I may try to use it.
Dan(Miller)
82 - Franco
21 - handyguy
The sad fact is that in countries like Honduras, sometimes the military IS the most democratic representative of the people.
To leap from this highly questionable and wholly unproven generalization to applying it specifically in the Zelaya case is a quite amazing [though 'sadly' unremarkable] instance of sophistry.
In other words, how can you possibly know if this is true in all cases, in a few cases, or in no cases? And most of all, what gives you the wherewithal to pronounce it as The Answer to the question, What happened in Honduras?
Let's just all make stuff up, and then assert it as "Facts."
Handy, the entire government of Honduras, the Supreme Court by unanimous vote, all branches of government, and even the members of Zelaya own party supported the dicision to inlest the military in removing Zeave from the County because they knew he was up to Chavestaism and they wll not allow it to get started there as they all want nothing to do with a Veniauelin or Cuban style repressive government.
Now Handy, with all due respect, when taking under consideration all the is stated above, are you saying you really have no idea how / why Dan could make his statement? Are you for real?
For the record, here is the most and sinister statement made concerning Honduras.
"We aren't going to stand by with our arms crossed... we're willing to do whatever it takes to ensure the sovereignty of Honduras and its people are respected," Mr. Chávez said.
Then Mr. Chavez, you should be respecting and supporting the sovereignty of the Hondurans Constitution who do not what it changed as you do, you fat communist blowhole! What a f---king lying deceitful swindler!
83 - Lumpy
I would find cindy's biased assumptions amusing if they were not shared by so many and therefore dangerous. The truth is that the chief tapers and plunderers and squanderers of our planet are NOT white (whatever that bigoted word means to her). They are brown and yellow and black and live in Africa and Asia where there are no checks on the waste of resources and destruction of the environment and exploitation of the people. Again the oblivious tranzi dupe defends the destroyers and oppressors and attacks the supporters of freedom and civilization.
84 - Franco
80 - roger nowosielski
"You've been a missing person, buddy. So somebody's got to do the job in your stead."
Hi roger, been too busy making changes with trying to keep the company alive in these times. So fare so good but had to have a break from the grind and sat down and came on to see all my favorites again. So how are you?
Now concerning your comment, which I choose to take as a friendly joshing, I should advise you that implying that I am racist, if that is what you are doing in any real sense, is not going to work. I am the last person you will be able to call a racist.
However I will have to admit that I am the first person you will be able of accusing of demanding that everyone pulls his or her own weight. And for those who honestly can’t, you will also be able to accuse me of being one of the first in being supportive in lending them a helping hand so they too may become more prosperous in their own right.
But no free rides at the expense of someone else!
85 - Franco
Dave, from the homework you have done, pretty good analysis I would say.
This was not a coup. The military never acted without the full and unanimous backing of the Supreme Court, and all other elected branch members of government, including Zelaya own party.
The only coup that was getting close to having a chance of taking place was the ongoing illegal actions of Zelaya which were being veamley supported by Chavez and Castro. Everyone knows that, there just not talking about it. And the only reason Zelaya is not dead or hiding in the jungle is because the current government of Honduras has not acted out a coup. It is actually mind boggling how much order there is in Honduras following such events. One death reported. Remarkable!.
Honduras is something we might want to remember here in the United States if we too ever face such attacks on our constitution, just as our founders insisted we act in such a case. .
Ain’t protecting freedom a bitch! You go Honduras! The international community is wrong on all accounts on this one.
86 - roger nowosielski
No implication of the sort, Franco. Just different world views now and then. But no one is squeaky clean - white, black, or yellow. And whites don't have any monopoly on goodness.
87 - Franco
54 - Cindy
"An analysis that does not consider the voice of the lowest economic classes is not a reasonable analysis."
Excellent comment and well said. I could not agree more!
"What about the people who are not being helped by your system of 'rule of law'?
What do they say? How can they tell someone like you that the rule of law has never helped them, if you won't even consider their perspective in your analysis?"
Today in the United States, where everyone of its citizens is granted Constitutional and Bill of Right protections under is system of “rule of law” as you put it, who are the people that you claim have never been helped by or benefited from these liberties and therefor are suffering under them?
Be specific.
88 - Franco
86 - roger nowosielski
"No implication of the sort, Franco."
Fair enough roger.
"But no one is squeaky clean - white, black, or yellow. And whites don't have any monopoly on goodness."
For Pete sake, can't you for once not make a comment directed at any color when speaking of race? Is that really that hard for you?
89 - roger nowosielski
I was evenhanded, Franco. Somebody's got to keep you honest.
90 - Cindy
Clav,
Your opinion of me is your department. Not much I can do about that.
I've a better idea: you find evidence that they are NOT better off than they were at home on the ejidos; evidence that, against all reason, they stupidly left home, moved to the maquiladora free zones and took maquiladora jobs to worsen their lives.
So it was an assumption on your part. It sounds reasonable to you that people are better off there.
I'll be happy to provide information in an article some time. It's on my list now.
However, that isn't the most important thing. The most important thing is that no one should have to live in poor conditions. It's wrong.
91 - Cindy
#81 - Dan Miller,
Why do you assume I have not gotten the opinions of the workers? You might guess that if you are interested in say, Australia that you could explore virtually unlimited information about it on the internet. At the same time, if you are not interested in Australia, it's likely it may as well not even exist.
If you look, Dan(Miller), there is an entire world of protest you don't see--unless you are interested in it. I am very interested in it. I have spoken directly with Iranian protesters. I have been e-mailed DDos hacker set-ups for the purpose of destroying Iranian govt web sites. (We found out later that this is not a good idea as it also reduces the ability for the protesters to use the internet. So, I told the hacker and he agreed we should not spread it. The page load attacks worked though.) I have a TOR relay on my computer, now, that allows Iranians and others to use my excess bandwidth. I recommend everyone get one. It's an easy way to share your bandwidth with people who need it. Also, iprental.com is giving free anonymous ips to any Iranian citizen, in case you know anyone who could use that info.
I talk to people every day, by e-mail who are involved in worker solidarity throughout the world.
I am not sure why you think I'd just say I know what's best for Maquiladora workers or any other workers without having viewed and read their own words and opinions.
The strange thing is they all say the same thing throughout the entire world. You can find that out if you are interested Dan(Miller); the information is available.
92 - Cindy
87 - Franco,
Specifically, I was addressing in the rule of law in Honduras. I could apply it to the U.S. as well. But we've been over this a whole bunch of times. So, I'll say this:
The U.S. government's president is not subject to the rule of law. Bush cannot be meaningfully punished for atrocities and crimes against humanity he committed. So, what is all the hubbub about some president who asks people if they want to vote on an issue?
93 - Clavos
Cindy,
As you yourself pointed out upthread, those who are born and raised in a given culture, know it best.
I know Mexico and Mexicans -- of all classes and stations. I am one, I grew up as one, and spent thirty years working in the Mexican airline industry as an adult. I travel there regularly and frequently, and still do business there.
While I'm sure you can find individuals in the maquiladoras who will go on forever about how horrible conditions are in them, just as you can find individuals in virtually any workplace in the world who will do the same, the fact remains that no one is forcing the workers to work there, they can always go back home (the vast majority are from other areas of Mexico) and resume tilling their land.
But, they don't, because they are better off in the maquiladoras, however bad they may be.
However, when the Gringo do-gooders come down and interview them, they're eager to tell the nice Gringos whatever they expect to hear.
Have the courage of your convictions, Cindy. Go live with them (or the Iranians or whomever) and help them.
Playing on the internet with software doesn't change anything.
Only armed revolution does.
94 - Baronius
"My motto is 'never trust a Catholic to tell you what Jesus said'."
Always helpful to keep track of who the bigots are. Jesus and the centurion are in Matthew 8.
95 - Cindy
Clav,
A) I am a pacifist (that leaves armed resistance out, I'm afraid) and B) these aren't children who look to cry on white people's shoulders. The are workers who struggle to improve their conditions.
Most of the world is against globalization. Most of the world hates Capitalism and what it's done to their countries.
What is with you and the 'go live with them' line? Do you seriously want me to answer this? I live here. This is my home. Do you think I should kill my husband by taking him away from medical help? Or should I just abandon him? There is plenty that I can do, and plenty of people to help right here, where I live.
Why pick Mexicans, or any other particular people? I feel the same way about people everywhere. If I were to go anywhere it would be Africa. That's where the greatest hunger is. But I can do as much from here by raising money to by livestock for African families. So, there isn't any need to go anywhere.
Finally, I believe I said I wanted to here from the people who are affected in any given situation. We can all give opinions based on what we know about where we were born and some information is objective. However, as I said, no one speaks for a country or an entire population. Many here live in the same country here and yet we still don't agree on the facts.
96 - Franco
92 - Cindy
"The U.S. government's president is not subject to the rule of law. Bush cannot be meaningfully punished for atrocities and crimes against humanity he committed."
Cindy, you had better catch up on current events. Just about ever single thing you are accusing Bush of, and that Obama promised to change when in the Whitehouse. Now that Obama is there and being in a position to assess first hand the issues that Bush was facing, Obama has either reinstated the Bush policies he once order discontinued, or he has kept the rest in tact, and right on down to the Surge in Iraq that Obama said would not work, and has just orders the Surge for Afganistan. So just what crimes against humanity are you speaking of of there Cindy?
And yes, Pelosi was brieft on all interigaion methods.
"So, what is all the hubbub about some president who asks people if they want to vote on an issue?"
For those who know, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none is possible!
Cindy, I asked you a sincere question which relates directly to your complaint that no one askes this question or accounts for it. And ironicly you have duck out of responding to it, even after complaining no one was or cared.
That now leaves you with three choices. Either put up, or shut up, or look the fraud!
"Specifically, I was addressing in the rule of law in Honduras. I could apply it to the U.S. as well."
OK apply it to the US then and account for your following statement.
"What about the people who are not being helped by your system of 'rule of law'?
What do they say? How can they tell someone like you that the rule of law has never helped them, if you won't even consider their perspective in your analysis?"
Here is the exact same question again relating directly to your statement.
Today in the United States, where everyone of its citizens is granted Constitutional and Bill of Right protections under is system of “rule of law” as you put it, who are the people that you claim have never been helped by or benefited from these liberties and therefor are suffering under them?
97 - Franco
89 - roger nowosielski
"I was evenhanded, Franco. Somebody's got to keep you honest."
No you were not roger. Evenhanded, truly evenhandedness, makes no mention of it at all roger. Care to dispute the honesty in that statement?
98 - Cindy
96 - Franco,
I agree with you re Obama. Fine with me. You want to toss Obama in there; I'll go along with that. I don't have any love for Obama. (Course I don't have quite as much hatred for him as I do for Bush. But then, like they say, it's only been a short while; give him 8 years.)
And yes, Pelosi was brieft on all interigaion methods.
Again, I agree. Toss her in too.
For those who know, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none is possible!
Okay, well. that will get us far. It's sort of like this riddle:
If you're paddling your canoe upstream and your left rear wheel falls off, how long will it take a grasshopper with a wooden leg to kick all of the seeds out of a dill pickle?
Cindy, I asked you a sincere question which relates directly to your complaint that no one askes this question or accounts for it. And ironicly you have duck out of responding to it, even after complaining no one was or cared.
Either put up, or shut up, or look the fraud!
Huh? I was talking to Dan(Miller) regarding Honduras. His stated that he is concerned because Zelaya broke the rule of law. Have you noticed the title of the article?
I told you I wasn't interested in going over the question you posed about the U.S. in detail. I have argued it before and it is a whole detailed mess of a new argument that I do not intend to rehash for the next 42 comments (which is what it will lead to). Besides, it's not like I am going to convince anyone of anything this time.
(P.S. I think you should give me credit. I didn't even make an ad hominem attack. Don't you agree? :-)
99 - Ruvy
Have the courage of your convictions, Cindy. Go live with them (or the Iranians or whomever) and help them.
You know, do like I do. Live your convictions.
100 - Cindy
Baronius,
It has nothing to do with being a bigot. I happen to be an atheist. I am also very much opposed to ecclesiastical organizations. What does not trusting a believing member of such an organization have to do with being a bigot?
I often, not always (after all he is a believer), trust Tolstoy's interpretation of Jesus because he is an anarchist. He is opposed to ecclesiastical organizations.
Soldiers are often looked upon as successes and protectors in a healthy society. You mentioned Jesus; recall the respect He showed the centurion.
What think about this story is that Jesus (and I don't know if this is the real Jesus, here, or just a convenient one) was not showing the centurion respect for being a soldier, but despite that fact that he was a soldier. He was also a slave owner. Would you argue that the respect was in any measure due to the idea that Jesus thought that it was worthy of respect to be a slave owner?
Here is the analysis of a pacifist teen (presumably a teen, writing on a Christian teen forum).
"Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower (Rome) can know God's grace. How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not. . . God's grace is for all people, even our enemies."
Sounds like one smart teen to me.
101 - Cindy
Ruvy,
I already answered that. And unless you want to look foolish, I recommend not suggesting your convictions include abandoning your sick and elderly wife.
Now, I am too tired from catching grenades for the last few hours to toss any more back. Time for bed.
I just realized that Roger is one of the few people here that I am not having a fight with. lol
102 - Dave Nalle
Most of the world is against globalization. Most of the world hates Capitalism and what it's done to their countries.
Cindy, this is just NOT true. Have you ever been outside the US? Have you ever talked to anyone in the third world? They are desperate for the opportunity to engage in real, entrepreneurial capitalism and seize on it any time they have a chance.
Yes, there are small but vocal minorities who have turned to socialism and other failed ideologies, but they are insignificant compared to the vast majority who want a chance to work and benefit from the fruits of their own labor. I would suggest that if you have contacts outside the US as you suggest you do, they are not really typical of the population of the world -- just of those who happen to share some of your bizarre and antiquated ideas.
Like too many on the left you've confused global corporatism with capitalism. They are two radically different things. The operations of the multinationals which work hand in hand with big government and international NGOs bear very little resemblance to capitalism as Adam Smith would have recognized it.
I would not go so far as to call them evil or destructive, but they ARE indifferent to the kinds of things which concern you. Their impact on the developing world has mostly been positive, but not as positive as true entrepreneurial capitalism has been where it has been permitted.
However, when the door is opened to the multinationals, they bring with them opportunity for real capitalism, because they raise standards of living and disposable income and encourage the growth of secondary enterprises and associated businesses, so in most cases their role is a net positive.
Dave
103 - roger nowosielski
Why would I want to join the gang, Cindy? It's not my style.
104 - Cindy
I just thought it was funny, Roger. It seemed as if I was only arguing with you for a long time. Now I am only arguing with 6 other people, but not with you.
105 - roger nowosielski
I was kind of concerned with what I saw. I think you should pick your fights more wisely - selective targets if you know what I mean. Don't let anyone break your spirit.
106 - roger nowosielski
"Yes, there are small but vocal minorities who have turned to socialism . . ."
Except for most of Latin America, Dave. The great majority of South Americans are under the thumb of ruling oligopolies. That's one reason, I'd say, why the situation in Honduras isn't as clear cut as some would like to believe.
107 - roger nowosielski
#97,
Incorrect, Franco. It was you who started with claims as to the civilization, culture and justice of the whites. I provided the counterpoint.
108 - roger nowosielski
Dan (Miller) - re #69.
Well, I may have misread your original comment. But aside from being self-revelatory, I found it on the alarmist side. Perhaps the problem is that you may be speaking with two voices - as an American on the one hand and an expatriate on the other - and at times they may appear at odds.
I don't question your feel for the Honduras situation or the general understanding of Latin America's problems. It's certainly bound to be better than that of many of us who have never been there. The question still remains whether the people of Venezuela are really so much worse off (as you say) since Chavez took power (and that's regardless of what kind of person Chavez is). What are your sources?
Are you connected to the majority of the people - those on the lowest economic rung? It would be rather difficult for a foreigner to be so connected. Kind of like what it would be for whites to truly understand the kind of prejudices and injustices that the blacks were exposed on a daily basis in the Deep South. Besides, the Honduras situation may be different: there were some positive things that Zelaya did on behalf of the poor, like increasing the minimum wage. So are you certain that those voices are represented as well to form your opinion?
I'm not playing "amateur psychologist," as you say, only try to understand your motivation and where you're coming from. Why in your particular case more so than with others? Perhaps some of things alluded to earlier provide somewhat of a clue - there being somewhat of a conflict as to what you say at times and why: dual allegiance, perhaps, to the US and Panama, a less stable or safe physical environment, not to mention the fact that most of your pieces are inseparable from critiquing Obama.
We're all affected by our immediate circumstances, where we live, etc., and all of that cannot help but affect our views and how we see the world. Perhaps in your case this is more pronounced. So if I was digging at motives, it's perhaps because I perceived (rightly or wrongly) certain contraditions. If anything, it was a way to flesh out the real Dan Miller.
109 - Clavos
Except for most of Latin America, Dave. The great majority of South Americans are under the thumb of ruling oligopolies. That's one reason, I'd say, why the situation in Honduras isn't as clear cut as some would like to believe.
Funny you should say that today, Cindy.
This op-ed column (free registration required) by Frida Ghitis, who is a Guatemalteca and very knowledgeable about LatAm affairs across the region, essentially refutes your point about Honduras.
A couple of pertinent quotes:
Before the military removed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya from power, less than one-third of the population approved of his rule, and discontent threatened to bubble over...
The article is about Chavez' waning appeal in the region, so is couched in terms of him:
Many people do love and admire the Venezuelan president, but his appeal has started to wear thin in Latin America. That is true, in defiance of conventional wisdom, even among the poor. Ask a taxi driver in Mexico City what he thinks of Chávez. There's a good chance he'll tell you, as several told me, that Chávez is a dangerous payaso. A clown. They have other ideas of what their country needs. Attacking poverty remains urgent, but Latin Americans have found a better way to do it. (emphasis added)
And finally:
When Chávez came to office in 1999, the poor in Latin America, who remain far too numerous, did not see appealing alternatives. They saw capitalism that ignored their needs -- and then there was Hugo. Now, by contrast, Latin America has another example. Instead of the confrontational, divisive Chávez approach, those aspiring to improve the lot of the poor can look to Brazil and Chile. Both countries have leftist presidents, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and Michele Bachelet, respectively. Both governments work to reduce poverty, but they do it in a way that stimulates economic growth and builds a strong economic foundation for the future. Both Lula and Bachelet enjoy stratospheric approval ratings.
110 - Clavos
109 is of course, directed at Roger, not Cindy.
Sometimes you sound alike.
111 - roger nowosielski
Well, I stand corrected then.
112 - Dan(Miller)
According to this article, the entry of Venezuela into the Southern Cone Economic Zone (Mercosur) is being delayed because of "doubts" about the existence of democracy in Venezuela and the refusal of the Venezuelan Ambassador to appear before the Brazilian Congress to make Venezuela's position clear. A letter from the Venezuelan Ambassador complaining about the delay was returned via diplomatic channels to the Ambassador on 10 July. Based on that sort of thing, the smashing 28 June defeat in Argentina of candidates from the party highly favored by Chavez, and the worsening economic situation in Venezuela,I wonder whether his glory days may be drawing to a slow close.
Dan(Miller)
113 - handyguy
A good article from today's LA Times puts the events into a less fuzzy timeline, comprehensive yet compact.
Both sides in this debate will find supporting evidence in the article. I still think the Honduran congress overreacted, creating a crisis prematurely.
But it's not completely outrageous, considering the country's political history.
Also interesting that Zelaya has generally not been a leftist on a personal level, but his inner circle is leftist; and he moved to the left out of political expediency in recent months.
114 - Dan(Miller)
Roger, in Comment #108, you ask
The question still remains whether the people of Venezuela are really so much worse off (as you say) since Chavez took power (and that's regardless of what kind of person Chavez is). What are your sources?
You might glance at this article I wrote some time ago. It provides lots of sources.
Dan(Miller)
115 - Baronius
So Cindy, when you tell Dave to read Jesus, you don't mean the biblical, historical Jesus. You mean what you and Tolstoy wish Jesus was. You reserve the right to label the parts you don't like as "convenient", and the parts you do like as "real". In other words, you don't want Dave to listen to Jesus; you want him to listen to you. The rest is just name-dropping.
116 - roger nowosielski
Is biblical and historical Jesus one and the same? Besides, even today there are different theological interpretations/schools as to Jesus' real meaning and message.
So how is Cindy's handling the subject matter any different or especially deserving of criticism?
117 - Dave Nalle
I seem to have missed Cindy's reference to Jesus. I thought she was an atheist.
As for me, I don't place an inflated value on his opinions.
Dave
118 - Cindy
Baronius,
You mean what you and Tolstoy wish Jesus was. You reserve the right to label the parts you don't like as "convenient", and the parts you do like as "real".
Not quite. The biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus are not one. (You can tell because the historical Jesus is a man not a son of a god.)
The bible is based on other people's accounts of Jesus. Some of them may be accurate, some may not be. By convenient I am addressing the idea that the bible was written by human beings and used as a way of wielding a certain influence and/or authority over people. So, the word convenient speaks to the idea that while the bible contains things Jesus said, it also contains things it would be convenient for Jesus to have said were the point to be influencing or controlling others by ascribing certain ideas to Jesus.
I trust some of Tolstoy's interpretations because they seem to me to correspond to other accounts of Jesus. They also seem to me what a true enlightened human being would be like. It is a biased perspective, I admit, then again so is any accounting of what Jesus actually did or said.
The Jesus I am influenced by is both a human being and a pacifist. I believe most people who are Christians have completely missed the most important things Jesus taught, in fact have missed what he was even about--based on what they themselves say and do. As Gandhi put it, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
119 - Cindy
Dave, The reference was to Jesus, Gandhi, MLK and Tolstoy.
120 - Cindy
You could always go back and actually read the post Dave.
121 - Lumpy
Tolstoy embodied all the fallacious liberal ideas which opened the door to a totalitarian state in Russia. The well intentioned liberal and anarchist reformers are always the unwitting harbingers of tyranny.
122 - roger nowosielski
Like there wasn't one during Tolstoy's time or before - in the tsarist Russia.
123 - Cindy
Roger,
I think I should take your advice and pick my fights. Not because they are likely to break my spirit any. Some of them leave me shaking my head in disbelief. But, after reading the last one on here, I think probably I have better ways to spend my time. Good suggestion! Thanks. Now, out into the world!
124 - Cindy
Of course, I did not mean your post Roger.
125 - Baronius
Cindy, I appreciate that there's a lot in Jesus that a pacifist could find appealing. But it's awfully unfair of you to cite Him as an ally while dismissing the majority of His claims.