Early New Year's day a young man was shot by a transit officer while lying face down and restrained.
Bay Area Rapid Transit officers were dispatched to the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, California at about 2:00 a.m. on New Year's day to break up an altercation between two groups of passengers aboard an arriving train. Officers detained some passengers involved in the conflict on the station platform. Among these was Oscar Juliuss Grant III, a 22-year-old Hayward man. Grant was an apprentice butcher at a supermarket. A caring father whose own estranged father was in prison, Grant was raised by his mother and grandmother. BART officials did not release any details regarding the disturbance between the groups of youths on the train.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - Cindy D
Roger,
Dan (Miller) can defend us based on the constitution and our right to free speech.
In a country where you can get a felony for dancing...
...apparently dancing at a peaceful protest can be seen as inciting a riot, but (there was no riot in this case--a mere technicality) only the police attacked everyone--maybe they were inciting a riot (ponders on arresting the police)...
I think Dan would have to make a plea bargain, we'd probably be hung, then shot.
77 - Cindy D
Roger,
He was an employee of BART. The law says that he only has to answer questions about the job while he remains an employee.
He would have to answer questions on the criminal investigation though, but it had never turned into a criminal investigation.
78 - Roger Nowosielski
I don't want to contribute anymore to this topic. I don't want to see Steve chased out from this thread. It'd only confirm his suspicion that we've been using it for our own personal edification - an impression I don't want to leave. The more, the merrier. Don't you think?
79 - Cindy D
Steve who?
I personally like my own personal edification. If that contributes to someone else's--even better.
Steve can go f...
...find a blog where it commands you to "please stay on topic or your posts will be incinerated".
If you listen to some miscellaneous person on the internet...it can only be because you suspect he is correct.
That I'll accept.
80 - Roger Nowosielski
That doesn't make any sense. No criminal investigation. Perhaps Dan could enlighten us here. And that ruling, about not having to answer questions just because you quit your job after you fucked up. It's unbelievable. Some head had better roll. Jerry Brown is a State Attorney General, don't forget; also an ex-mayor of Oakland. (This may be good or bad.) I hope he does his job, though, and bring the guilty parties into account.
81 - Roger Nowosielski
No, Cindy! The reason why I didn't respond is because he didn't say anything outrageous. We're all supposed to be expanding our horizons and reaching out, building bridges. So I didn't want to antagonize him unnecessarily. Even to your enemies, you're supposed to give as much rope as as you can. (And Steve isn't an enemy just because of the comment he made. So why make him one?) That's all!
82 - Cindy D
He seems he might respond to antagonism. He's not my enemy.
(But, I doubt he was doing more than just passing through.)
83 - Roger Nowosielski
You mean like eavesdropping and getting horrified by some comments? So much the better! Mission accomplished!
84 - Marcia Neil
OK, who already knew about the pink dynamite visually near site? Some cows in a pasture?
85 - El Bicho
he claims he want to stay with family because of death threats he recieved
86 - Cindy D
Marcia,
I sure wish I could figure out your koanish provocations. It's not for not trying. I still don't get what one hand clapping sounds like.
87 - Roger Nowosielski
I still don't get what the hell she (Marcia) is talking about. Speak up, please, so we can continue this conversation.
As to El Bicho's comment, I don't understand the spirit in which it is offered. If as an excuse, I don't buy it. He deserves the same fate that befell the innocent victim. I wish I could be more sympathetic here, like Martin Sheen.
I'm sorry. I cannot.
88 - Cindy D
Just an update, I would think.
89 - Roger Nowosielski
Makes you wonder, though, how those who are guilty of crime, like taking a human life, would have balls enough to worry about their own. The proper attitude, I should think, would be to own up to the "mistake" you made and surrender. What happened to the good old remorse?
But I guess it takes all kinds.
90 - Dan(Miller)
He deserves the same fate that befell the innocent victim. Possibly so, but wouldn't it be best to wait until after he has been tried and convicted -- if for no other reason than to learn from our no-capital-punishment-in-any-circumstances friends why it shouldn't happen to him?
On the other hand, all of the incendiary pre-trial publicity may make it very difficult to find a jury to hear the case. At least here, however, the prosecuting attorney apparently has not made inflammatory statements of the sort in which the illustrious Mike Nifong engaged -- before all of the charges against the Duke lacrosse players were dropped as unfounded and he was disbarred.
Oh. Here is one additional link which may have at least tangential relevance.
Dan(Miller)
91 - Roger Nowosielski
I'm truly conflicted about capital punishment, Dan, and I mean generally. Certain crimes, I tend to feel, like against the children and sex-related,I feel are intolerable. But that's in my "normal," human moments. I realize that in a larger scheme of things I ought to be more forgiving: it's not for us to judge.
Getting down to cases, I didn't of course mean to be prejudicial or on in any way to circumvent the workings of justice. Everyone deserves his or her day in court. It was just an emotional response on my part, not any vindictive kind of attitude. Sorry for not having been clearer as to my intent. I'd like to believe I'm too civilized for that.
92 - Cindy D
Death is too gentle for such a fiend.
93 - Roger Nowosielski
Cindy,
I'm trying to be humane. If we don't, we're back to the same kind of practices as lynchings.
I wouldn't want to be among that crowd.
94 - Cindy D
Me neither. Good thing I have an excuse. I don't believe in the death penalty.
95 - Roger Nowosielski
I wish I could say the same. The blood boils when you hear of some cases. (You should read James Elroy, "The Black Dahlia," for instance.) There is of course a counter-argument. Some people, by virtue of their horrid acts, have forfeited the right to be call humans. So what do we do? Incarcerate them for life or say good riddance? It's an unresolved problem - not that different, perhaps, from that of pacifism in light of all odds or defending one's country against the enemy. One of the perpetual dilemmas of liberalism!
96 - Cindy D
My biggest concern is not someone like this cop. But someone innocent.
97 - Roger Nowosielski
Can't be helped! It can't be undone. So you had better believe - in the hereafter, afterlife, whatever!
98 - Cindy D
I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe innocent people shouldn't be killed.
99 - Cindy D
If society is going to act like a maniac producing machine. Then I don't want one single innocent person killed. Not one single one.
100 - Roger Nowosielski
Well, Cindy,
All I can say is that you're up for to a great deal of disappointment.
Think on this, though. Though it's society that may or may not facilitate it, it's a man - and I'm not being sexist here, only parsimonious from linguistic standpoint - that kills. And it all comes down to human nature.
So do you wonder, now, why I think literature is the best venue for dealing with problems which beset humanity?
I'll leave on this sad note and will resume tomorrow. Stay well and think happy thoughts!
Roger
101 - Cindy D
There are no evil babies.
102 - Cindy D
Besides, I'm used to disappointment.
Good night Roger.
103 - Steve
I'd like to apologize to Roger and Cindy for my outburst in the chatbox here earlier. Had a terrible morning but, certainly no excuse.
I was being an assface, sorry. It won't happen again!
104 - Cindy D
Hey Steve,
Nice to see you back. No problem. :-)
105 - Marcia Neil
It's simple, really -- some influence-network was trying to elicit a family history from the Grants while others wanted a Pulitzer Prize to expose in writing the various old-explosives sites in the San Francisco/Oakland region.
106 - Cindy D
Thanks Marcia.
That would be a tough one. I still can't find any news about dynamite or explosives in that area. I guess no Pulitzer was offered.
107 - Roger Nowosielski
Steve,
I apologize, too, for having been somewhat on the flippant side in a few of my comments; it had gnawed at me all day. I am therefore glad that you got back on this thread, which presented me with this opportunity.
Roger
108 - bliffle
I haven't noticed that the BC Gun Guru, Vox Populi, has chimed in yet on this subject, so let me anticipate what he might say.
Oscar Brant has only himself to blame for his death (says Vox). This is what happens to a person who goes out into society with inadequate weaponry.
Had he been properly armed, perhaps with that clever revolver that employs .410 deer slugs as ammo, nobody would have violated his rights and thrown him to the ground.
Any reasonable policeman, upon approaching Oscar, would have carefully chosen his words and manner so as to handle the situation in a reasonable and polite manner. Indeed, an armed society is a polite society.
So says Vox. An armed society is a polite society.
Words to remember.
109 - Roger Nowosielski
Who IS Vox?
110 - Mark Eden
Vox Populi, man of mystery and agent provocateur...aka Dave Nalle
111 - Jet
He's not going to rip his clothes of to reveal blue and red longjohns is he?
112 - Cindy D
Johannes Mehserle entered the plea Thursday in a packed Alameda County courtroom with supporters and family members of both the officer and the victim, 22-year-old Oscar Grant.
Prosecutors say Mehserle was standing over Grant, who was lying facedown and restrained on a train platform, when the Bay Area Rapid Transit officer fired one shot into the man's back.
113 - Cindy D
Plead Not Guilty to Murder
114 - Marcia Neil
Didn't a young football player have a sudden back problem that landed him in the hospital with lots of machine gadgetry?
115 - Roger Nowosielski
Marcia,
What are you talking about? And what has this got to do with Cindy's article? Please enlighten me.
116 - Marcia Neil
If he was killed because tackled that is a different circumstance that most others.
117 - bliffle
IMO Marcia is in intimate telepathic communication with Vox Populi.
Listen and learn.
118 - Cindy D
I am still trying to figure that last one out. I can't find any news of a football player going to the hospital with a back injury.
119 - Roger Nowosielski
Cindy,
Here's a slightly different take from The East Bay Express, an alternative-press weekly from Berkeley. There are two articles there.
Roger
120 - Cindy D
Thanks for that link Roger. It was interesting that the community organization CAPE is asking for, The D.A. to be removed for perceived inaction/inadequacy in prosecuting police abuse cases, here and in the past. And I like this:
CAPE also demands creation of a citizen review board empowered to determine whether BART police are needed at all, and if so, whether they need to carry firearms...
121 - Roger Nowosielski
Yea,
I thought it was a new twist, kind of unusual for them, i.e., that publications that is, though I'll have to re-read it.
122 - Cindy D
In my county we have a township with 18,000 or so people and 40 police officers. This is in a town with zero murders, zero arsons, and a very low crime rate in general.
Other small local towns are suffering from needlessly multiplying police forces. They just seem to keep hiring more for no apparent reason except they can.
There is also a complete state police system in place.
123 - Roger Nowosielski
The reason is obvious, I think. They all know that trouble is brewing ahead.
124 - Cindy D
Well, these have been at this for years. They're like rabbits.
The company manager is fighting to remove a few of the 7 officers in her township. They can't afford to pay all these unneeded police. They all have new cruisers yet.
125 - Roger Nowosielski
You should look when you have a chance at Robert Reich's The Work of Nations. Though written during the Clinton era, it was prophetic.
Reich predicted that the most explosive area for job growth will be in the security sector, private or public, to protect the property in view of the growing gap between the haves and the have-nots.
I have a nice review somewhere, written during my more radical years; and I may e-mail it to you if you if you like (if I find it, that is). But the trend is, everyone is arming themselves - even my sister who had never a gun before and is petrified of firearms. Sign of the times!