Counting the Souls as they March into Heaven
Okay, I don't really think that Christians should be encouraging women to have more abortions. I don't think anyone should be encouraging women to have more abortions. The fewer abortions, the better. But I believe that Christians (or more specifically right-wing fundamentalist Christians) are trapped in a logical conundrum that maybe someone could explain to me.…
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26 - Dr Dreadful
Jordan @ #14, Baronius @ #17:
Hasn't it also historically been a school of Christian thought that a child has no soul until it is born - that the soul enters the body with the child's first breath (hence the term 'spirit')? In which case the question of whether an aborted, miscarried or stillborn fetus goes to heaven, hell, limbo or Bakersfield doesn't even arise, because the person never actually existed.
It is one answer to the conundrum Doug poses. The snag is that if it were indeed the case that an unborn child has no soul, there should be no problem with abortion - which is probably why the Catholic Church dropped the notion a long time ago.
There's also the question of whether soul=personality, in which case I'm sure that any mother who's carried more than one child to term would be able to tell you that every fetus has its own distinct personality, even in the womb.
And Jordan, what this article is doing in Politics is that abortion is one of the hottest-button political issues in modern America. There's really not much we can do at this point about the fact that it has very little to do with politics.
It does get people yelling at each other and thumping the table, so it has that in common with, say, economic theory or the diatribes of Limbaugh.
27 - roger nowosielski
Doug #25,
I believe it's a bogus political issue; but the fact that some want to make it a political issue is something you can't stop, nor can you dissuade them from doing so by the kind of argument you're using. I think time will cure all wounds; and just as the idea of gay marriage is slowly getting acceptance (look at Iowa, for instance), it will happen eventually with the abortion issue.
Meanwhile, a Church edict (from Vatican, e.g.) would go a long way to tone the debate down. Another possibility - some linguistic discovery (Wittgenstein called it a "grammatical remark") which will clarify and/or dismantle the pro-choice vs pro-life debate.
28 - Dr Dreadful
just as the idea of gay marriage is slowly getting acceptance (look at Iowa, for instance)
Indeed. I read somewhere that the Iowa state legislature is actively looking at ways of making their state more interesting. Currently, two options are on the table:
1. Keep being flat.
2. Legalize gay marriage.
Conservative lawmakers favor the first strategy, but Democrats fear that it would do little to attract the gay dollar to the Hawkeye State.
Said state Senator Hank Straight-Ninekids-Yepcompletelystraight (R-Cedar Rapids): "We're not totally against gays in Iowa. I myself have recently sponsored a bill to mandate the raising of toilet stall partitions nine inches off the floor in men's restrooms at all airports in the state. But there are limits to how accepting Iowans can be."
29 - Dr Dreadful
I know, Jet, I know. I'm going to hell. Or possibly Des Moines.
30 - roger nowosielski
Ain't that something, Jet, Doc. Gay marriage in Iowa of all places. Pretty soon, it'll be as popular as the apple-pie.
31 - roger nowosielski
Did you two know, BTW, that the mid-western states were the longest holdouts when it came to burlesque, long after it came into disuse in places like NY or Chicago.
My last visit to Des Moines in the late 70's - a 30-minute stopover at the Greyhound station - was most memorable: a little burlesque club with B-girls and the whole shebang, and a round of drinks.
You won't get that anymore by traveling by Greyhound or Trailways. Times have definitely changed.
32 - Baronius
Doug, I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, but I think most of my argument would stand - and I don't think it's unclear or knotty. If you view the question from a strictly biblical standpoint, you'd have to say that the Bible doesn't clearly state that all unborn children go to Heaven. It says that there is a path to Heaven, through Jesus Christ and baptism. So it's entirely consistent to oppose abortion biblically. There are disagreements about the appropriate age for baptism.
33 - October
Doug, I did a search on with key words "abortion heaven soul" and yes, almost all protestant Christians believe that a child who dies before it can be born goes to heaven. And yes, you are right on target. It is a contradiction that I am currently trying to get input on from friends and family who are anti-abortion. I don't think the contradiction can be reconciled. I suspect many will avoid the discussion altogether.
34 - Natalie Riney
"What is the ultimate goal for Christians? Is it not to have as many souls as possible enter through the Pearly Gates?"
The ultimate goal for Christians is to give glory to God, which we do in this life. That privelage is denied to those humans we abort.
35 - Silas Kain
Wouldn't everything make more sense and be much less complicated if we could just put the kabosh on this whole idea of an eternal soul?
Or could the "eternal soul" be a form of energy which recreates upon exit from the human brain? I somehow can't believe that our brains are not populated with some kind of karmic (cosmic, spiritual) energy.
We could just focus on living a joyous and humane life on a planet on which we are all lucky enough to live; looking for ways to minimize abortions while allowing women and their doctors to make informed decisions about pregnancy.
Is that not the central message preached by Christ? The core message amongst the oldest of testaments (take your pick from a variety of belief systems), God gave humankind free will. It is God's directive that free will not be interfered with even in Divine emergencies. It is up to humankind to work out the details of community.
Say Amen.