In honor of Black History Month, some black leaders have proposed legislation to ban the "N" word. Are they right?
On February 1, the first day of Black history Month was ushered in with a bit of local media brouhaha here in New York when Queens Councilman Leroy Comrie, hip-hop artist Kurtis Blow Walker, and other community leaders headed a press conference calling for a symbolic, non-binding resolution urging New Yorkers to stop using the "n" word. Though no one could possibly imagine this could be made into a real law (just for starters, the First Amendment implications would be huge) it did give people of all races ample food for thought.…
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— go to most recent comments176 - Elvira Black
Re: #173:
Rough translation (for the benefit of Allesandro et al):
I'm black, you're not. If a Jew tells me that he had an experience with an angry, bitter black kid who hated whites and beat up on some hapless white drunk, it can't be true! Why do whites insist on seeing us as angry? Never mind the high rate of crime within certain segments of the young black population. Because I'm black, I can simply not accept that a Jew could have had a negative experience with a black kid he was trying to help.
After all, he's not black. Therefore, he must be lying or exaggerating.
"I," on the other hand, because of my blackness (and despite any international cultural influences) identify myself as an African American though I am not a native of the US.
Because I am black and an adoptive African-American, I must defend my people at every turn. I must be in total denial about the fact that African Americans may also be capable of bigotry, because they have a good excuse to hate whites and Jews.
All the inroads that have been made thus far and the opportunities that exist for AA's must be downplayed so that everyone can remember that we are victims and any failures in our youth are not our doing for not being positive role models or for turning a blind eye. No, it is still white people's fault. Black kids should not be held accountable for any wrongdoing. Imagine--a Jew insisting that he encountered a kid who actually beat up a drunk white! Such a thing could never have happened! No, no, no!
Because I am black, I don't need no stinkin' links. This is no democracy. If you are not black, you have no right to speak about blacks, period--whether you are saying something positive or negative, you simply have no right to say a thing about our people. Even if you are an historian specializing in African American history, your authority is suspect because you have not lived life as a black person.
I, however, can feel free to say the most outrageous things about whites and Jews, because I'm the oppressed one and they deserve to be punished for the color of their skin and their collective guilt.
You want proof of my assertions? Here's a list of books. Do your OWN damn research. I am right because I am black, period. I don't have time to spend gathering links to back up my points. I'm black--that's all the linkage you need. My credibility is sacrosanct due to my genetically induced skin tone.
Meanwhile, I can move freely through both worlds--having my cake and eating it too. I can come on all sweet and nice--but if I need to go so far as to personally attack the author so directly that Christopher finds it necessary to delete it, so be it. This is not a democracy.
I even agreed with the author of the piece, at least initially, because hell, she was "respectful" and made some decent points, even if she is a Jew and all. But I have a bone to pick with Ruvy, so if he dares to show his Jewish face on this thread, I'll turn my venom onto him full force.
So what if Ruvy was actually well-meaning enough back in the day to try to help troubled youth. How dare he say anything to a misguided black kid? Hey, he was just a kid talking trash and you are a dirty Jew liar. That's what you Jews are known for, amongst other things, and we all know what they are, don't we?
If Ruvy or other whites or Jews say anything positive about black culture, they are just condescending and disrespectful. If they dare to admit that there are some serious problems within some segments of the black community, they had best shut their ignorant mouths. They are not black. They don't understand our struggles, which are unique. No one else, including Jews could possibly understand what it's like to be hated because of one's genetic origins.
I, however, am free to attack whites and defend the actions of our poor innocent misguided black youth whenever I see fit. How dare you speak on behalf of my people or against them? This is not a democracy.
The author of this piece, whom I initially seemed to agree with, is obviously gravely mentally ill, drunk, and a damsel in distress to boot. You can't stereotype any of my people, but I know your type, believe you me I do. Those white sorority girls who need to be rescued--I just don't "engage" with them at all. And no, I'm not stereotyping here for my own ends. You see, I know all about you whites and Jews, and if I tell you that the author of this piece is a sorority sister who needs rescuing, believe it. Why? Because I'm black, so I can talk all I want and stereotype whites and Jews all day long. But you can't do the same to me. This is not a democracy.
And by the way, Nancy, why are you being so nice and apologizing to the author of this piece? Why aren't you completely siding with me?
See, even though I was not born here and so am not an African American in the same sense as one would normally use the term, I know all about it. Simply because of the color of my skin, I know all about the experience of blacks who were born here and whose ancestors were slaves here. No, it doesn't matter at all that I do not have the same heritage, though my countrymen did experience similar oppression. Even though Jews have experienced discrimination and much worse, they cannot understand their fellow Americans' struggles because they are not black. I, on the other hand, can speak for the native born African American despite the fact that I am not. Why? Because my skin is darker than yours.
And by the way, understand this: if you are white, you are a racist. If I am black, I am not a racist, no matter how egregiously I attack whites and Jews. I have this right. You don't. This is not a democracy.
Yes, I like to joke around. Don't you guys get it? "Most of the time I'm snickering. I am really silly. I sound really serious. I always have been but I am a happy person. I am perpetually snickering." Here I am, just trying to show you white folks how reasonable and nice I really am. Why fly off the handle at personal attacks and ad hominem slurs? What is wrong with attacking Ruvy the Jew for relating those experiences he had? He is a liar. I know he is. No black kid would ever ever do such a heinous thing. And of course that young black kid hates whites. He's entitled. And why should I admit, no matter how grudgingly, that a Jewish man was trying to help one of my own by telling him that his anti-social hate filled attitude would hold him back?
I'd rather see the future and potential of myriad black youths go down the toilet than own up to the fact that there is a problem with racism in this country and some of it involves racism by blacks.
And now class, I suggest that you shut your ignorant white pieholes and get busy studying these page-turners, just for a start, before you dare "dialogue" with the likes of me:
Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks
by George J. Borjas, Jeffrey Grogger, Gordon H. Hanson
President Reagan's Conservative Fiscal Policy: Unemployment among African Americans (Paperback)
by Chiazam Ugo Okoye (Author)
Youth Unemployment, Underemployment. A Continuing Delima
by Ray Marshall
Then you come back here and talk some more. But whatever you say, if I still don't agree with it, just remember: you're not black. You will never, ever understand. This is not a democracy.
177 - Elvira Black
Nancy et al:
Just briefly (yeah, right):
Yes, I admit that Zedd is perhaps not as overtly "racist" as, say Heloise. She tries to walk the line and fancies herself to be an open-minded, reasonable person--as long as you agree with her, that is. Oh, and don't presume to talk about blacks unless you have black skin. Other than that, you're cool.
Using her own argument, I hereby assert that she has not lived in a native African Americans' shoes. She has her own, more Euorpean based culture which she freely admits to. So why does the color of her skin entitle her to be the expert on all things African AMERICAN while I, who was born here and live amongst people of all races and nationalities, am not allowed to speak about blacks and what I know and see and hear, both positive and negative?
Christopher, I know the comment policy, but I also kind of wish you had let Zedd's comment stand as is. By censoring her, you are not fully revealing her--you should pardon the expression--true colors.
No, she didn't come completely out of her bag a la Heloise, but I also didn't hear a peep from her about the egregious slurs Heloise was piling on like horseshit all over this thread.
Her attack on Ruvy was so far out of left field that it shocked me, just as my defense of Ruvy seemed to shock her.
Nancy, as far as Jews being super sensitive, this may be true in some cases--but not, in general, to the same extreme demonstrated by Heloise and Zedd on this thread. It's like Zedd's inserted some sort of African American pre-programming chip into her brain that compels her to attack the minute someone like Ruvy appears on the scene. Her attack was completely and utterly uncalled for, and I took her up on it. That's all.
You see, I don't have to wait for her to attack me directly to fight back. I'm not going to sit idly by and let her ream out my friend here and say nothing, as some other readers here have chosen to do.
Nancy and even Christopher seem to be taking enormous pains not to light into Zedd as they might with, say, Ruvy (I speak only of Christopher here vis a vis Ruvy). They are bending over backwards to be civil and politely inquire as to what she is really getting at. It couldn't really be what it seems, could it? After all, she seems so reasonable and nice on the surface.
Never once did she make a peep that I can recall when her sister in arms Heloise lit into the Jews. After all, she must support her people at all costs, even if they are contributing to the perpetuation of the most horrible lies and distortions about Jews. There is a double standard at play here--a do as I say, not as I do schtick--that is so illogical and maddening that it makes the mind boggle. But she knows full well that she can get away with bullshit that Ruvy could never hope to--not in a million years.
Nancy: yes, some Jews, like every other "minority" group in America, will get their backs up at the slightest provocation. However, as the saying goes, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. When Heloise comes on this thread and proves by her outrageous and mostly unchallenged statements that some blacks' hatred of Jews is as outlandishly virulent as any Nazi or Islamic fundamentalist could hope to be, am I supposed to pretend that I didn't read what I read, or somehow misinterpreted it?
One of the points of my piece is that there is some "truth" to every sterotype. Thus, I am a Jewish princess (though of a very mild variety compared to the real thing) and my boyfriend is the stereotypical goy. I've often likened his persona to some of the great goyishe heroes of the big screen--part Clint Eastwood in his spaghetti western period; part Jon Voight as the hapless and naive Joe Buck in Midnight Cowboy.
The parallels between our relationship and that of my mother and father are downright eerie. BG's dad was born in Oklahoma only a few miles from where my father was born in Arkansas. Like BG, my dad came to NYC and fell in love with a bona fide New York Jewgirl--my mom, born on the Lower East Side.
One of our favorite lines is taken from Schindler's list--the part where Ray Fiennes, as the rifle toting Nazi sniper who likes to pick off Jews for sport, starts to be attracted to his Jewish maid servant. A fellow Nazi officer notices his obvious attraction, and warns him not to develop a "taste for Jewish skirt." BG, like my dad, did just this--despite the cultural discrpancies of big city Jew girl and small town white boy.
Despite the fact that A, my Orthodox Jewish aunt, could never approve of my relationship with a non-Jew, my mother broke with tradition by marrying my dad.
My aunt F, on the other hand--who was, like my mom, thoroughly assimilated--supports her children's decisions to marry whomever they choose to. One son married a WASP who converted to Judaism. Another son moved to Thailand, married a Thai woman, and had a child with her. Her daughter moved to California and adopted an Asian baby.
Time and again, F has confided in me about how hurt she is that although A talks about her children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren at length, she has no interest in hearing much about F's children and their kids. Why? Because my aunt A, being Orthodox, simply cannot approve of F's acceptance of her children's tendency, as assimilated Jews, to marry outside of their religion and/or race.
When F first told A that her son was marrying a non-Jew, A was livid. "That's what happens when you let your children go to out-of town colleges!"--she raved. Being the older sister, A has always felt that she could talk to F as if she were still a child, despite the fact that both women are now well into their 80s.
Meanwhile, one of A's sons married an Orthodox woman many years ago. A and her husband M were not orthodox, but became so in an attempt to appease their new daughter in law. Not that they weren't observant, or didn't think that being Orthodox was valid, but they really had to toe the line from then on. Being Orthodox is a very involved commitment, but I won't go into all the "rules and regulations" here.
As a half-Jew, I was never good enough for the likes of M, my cousin's wife. No one was quite up to her standards, if truth be told. A didn't give them expensive enough anniversary gifts. A's other son N--a terrific guy who met an untimely death and spent his life helping kids of all colors as a social worker--was not Orthodox and thus was not entitled to be in her son's wedding party. F's youngest son, who briefly went to the same Yeshiva as M's kids, was not good enough to associate with either because he wasn't Orthodox.
In short, M was the kind of Jew who gives my peeps a bad name.
Depite my aunt F's more liberal outlook, when I mentioned that I saw The Passion of the Christ all she could say is that she refused to see it, even though, as an avid movie buff, she saw every movie that came out of the theatres as soon as, or even before, it was released.
Just like Catholics who protested when the Last Temptation of Christ came out, some Jews assumed the movie was anti-semitic even without having seen it. Now of course, especially in the light of Mel Gibson's recent drunken rants, one could argue that she was right, I told her that I did see it and that though it was over the top violent, I didn't resject it outright.
My aunt F also takes courses and classes, and took a Shakespeare course which included discussion of The Merchant of Venice. F had a lot of trouble with that one--because of course Shakespeare's depiction of this Jewish character was far from flattering.
But I would not have the same visceral reaction as she did. I understood that this play was written in a very different time and place, just for starters. It is still a great work of art regardless of whether it is PC or not PC in 21st century America. Moreover, simply because Shakespeare portrayed the merchant in a stereotypical way does not mean that he did not also imbue the charactter with some compassion and humanity-- and with a recognition of what it meant to be a despised outcast/outsider.
In fact, I am willing to admit that some great writers and artists were blatant anti-Semites. But I refuse to deprive myself of their art because of this. Thus I can admire the genius of Ezra Pound, or Celine despite their raging anti-Semitism.
My aunt A, of course, never realized that some Jews like her, who rejected most blacks outright, were actually cultivating attitudes that were almost akin to Hitler's when it came to minority groups she disliked. She worked for years in the pubic school system, but most students and teachers were Asians and Jews. She lived cheek to jowl with minorities, but was able to retreat to the safety of her Lower East Side virtual Jewish ghetto where she could safely expound on all the "animals" who should be sterilized.
Unlike A's eldest son who married the Orthodox princess, became a math teacher and then a principal, and made "all the right moves," her son N was the frequent target of her criticism. Why would he choose to be such a bleeding heart and help those "animals" who had all those babies out of wedlock and then abused them?
N was so devoted to his job that he would spend routinely overtime on emergency cases. As a child welfare case worker, he had to intervene for kids who were horribly abused. He was truly one of the good guys--one of those Jewish folks who are in a sense more Jewish than A because he performed countless "mitzvahs," or good deeds which are commanded of all Jews, for kids no matter what race they were.
When Ruvy related his story, he reminded me of my dear departed counsin N. I knew that he was trying to be a positive influence on this black kid's life, despite the kid's hatred of whites and Jews. So to see Zedd come out of her bag and attack him for his attempts to do a mitzvah, and then accuse him of lying about a scenariio that is, sadly, all too believable, outraged me. There was no call for it. None at all.
So yes, if people insist on rubbing my nose in their hatred, I will react. But I'm not one of those super sensitive Jews who will protest a movie or a book that is supposedly anti-Semetic.
Blacks in this country are not in mortal danger of attack by neighboring countries wishing only for their death, as is the case for Ruvy. He, too, lives cheek to jowl with arabs, and does not despise them all merely because they are not Jewish. Like me, he will not sit idly by and be spit on, however, and will not apologie for defending himself.
In fact, he seems to go out of his way to try to "dialogue," as Zedd would say, even with those who attack him. He tries to find some common ground, and readily admits, as I do, that they are evil Jews just as there are good ones, and that this is part of the human condition. He doesn't try to demonize blacks as a race the way Heloise tries to do with Jews.
So what di Zedd expect? Attacking Ruvy is like attacking me; just as she feels that criticizing a black kid is an assault on her as a black person. The difference is that just as she "knows" certain things, as a Jew as as a friend of Ruvy, I "know" that he speaks only the truth about this incident.
As a Jew, I know full well that though Islamic fundamentalists hate all Americans, they hold a special place in their hating hearts for Jews. This is a fact--it is not being supersensitive. It is merely the truth.
Ruvy and I are not afraid to admit that there are "kikes" amongst us. We are unafraid to air our "dirty laundry," and believe that in this openness and candor about the good and bad aspects of Jews, Arabs, and all others lies our best hope for mutual understanding. Thus my strong belief that even if we may be "sensitive," we are not unduly so, considering that anti-Semities like Heloise run around unchallenged, spewing their vileness. Combine that with the fact that Ruvy is surrounded by countries whose leaders' most fervent wish is for the destruction of his home, himself, his wife, his children, and his countrymen, and I would maintain that we both exercise admirable restraint.
Heloise and Zedd would never dare admit that blacks have any flaws--moreover, they accept and encourage and enable these flaws. They embrace them as a symbol of their "blackness," their "otherness," their refusal to assimilate into American society. They are perfectly happy to take advantage of all the opportunities afforded them and to "snicker" at the way guilt-ridden PC whites will contort themselves in an attempt to excuse any and all rants against the white race and their sins.
Jews like Ruvy and I have more brains and balls and compassion than blacks like Heloise and Zedd could ever hope to have.
178 - Nancy
El - I hope you're less upset, but I suspect not. I did point out to Zedd that blacks forget that Jews have been among their staunchest supporters, yet they choose to remember only the few they find offensive. & I've included them in my opinions of being hypersensitive & intolerant of criticism, no matter how justifiable. I'm NOT after you or Ruvy or any other Jew. As I said, one can criticise without being antiSemitic or racist; they aren't the same thing.
Heloise doesn't need anyone else to call her out on her remarks, which ARE racist & offensive; by talking that way, she proclaims herself & doesn't need any help buildng a scaffold & hanging herself with such trash talk. I'm taken aback, because I don't remember her ever talking like this before. It could be she really feels this way, it could be she's just wanting to strike out for something else going on & this subject was the one that got her attention & she doesn't mean it. Sometimes I'll rant about something that happens to be an obvious target, but my feelings really aren't that extreme. In any event, I have enough trouble getting myself & my own big mouth out of trouble, so I'm not going to try to get her out, too. ;) As I said, I haven't seen this side of her before, so I'm waiting to see before I judge. Everyone can have an off day when they stick their feet in their mouths & say things they shouldn't & wish they hadn't.
You're right, just because you're paranoid, etc. etc. There are definitely a lot of jerks out there who hate Jews just because they're Jewish. Some muslims (not all) - but these particular muslims, who do they NOT hate? Jews, Americans,
western Europeans, christians, fellow muslims of different sects & on & on, they'd probably hate Mohammed if he were still around. NO ONE is saying you shouldn't defend yourself verbally or otherwise against people who attack you or plan harm against you; of course not. I'm just pointing out that everyone who criticizes you is NOT against you or gunning for you or anti Semitic, & far too many Jews interpret anyone who isn't totally uncritical as being just that. I consider that those who tell me I look fat in a certain outfit, or warn me of improvements to myself I could make, are actually my friends. Only your good friends will tell you unsavory facts in order to save you from making an ass of yourself in public, so to speak. You're an intelligent woman; I hope you can tell the difference between my comments & their intent & stuff like Heloise is spouting. If I didn't like you, I wouldn't bother to respond to you - like I ignore JOM; as far as I would be concerned,you wouldn't exist.
Anyway, after reviewing the comments, I don't think Zedd is really antiSemitic - she's just pissed off at you. Heloise is another matter, if she really means what she's saying. If she doesn't, hopefully she'll apologize & stop it. If she does, well, have at her & I'll second you. I don't like to read that sort of crap myself. I hope she doesn't mean it. As I said, it's atypical of her.
Meanwhile, be calm. Have a cup of chamomile tea or two & a nice hot bath to feel better relax. Getting this upset will only create wear & tear on yourself & no harm to anyone else. I do hope you'll feel better.
Good lord - I sound like my grandmother-!
179 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Elvira,
Thank you for your eloquent words and powerful defense of me and what I stand for, even though I do understand that you do not agree with all of it.
I couldn't expect you to. When you have two Jews, you generally have at least three opinions... :o))
But I will say this, something I never want you to forget.
You are not a half-Jew. You may have ties to another belief system, but either you are a Jew, or you aren't. Your mother was Jewish when you were born to her. That in itself was enough to entitle you to FULL membership in the Tribe. End of discussion. This is Halakhá (Law) and it applies to you as it does to every single Jew on the planet.
What you do with that status is a different story.
You can pursue that path of your destiny, or not. And how you pursue that path is up to you. In the end, that decision must be yours and yours alone, a matter between you and your Creator. A fellow Jew or Child of Israel can attempt to help you, and G-d can push you in the direction He desires, but sof sof (in the final analysis), the decision itself and the consequences that flow from that decision, lie upon your shoulders alone.
I look outside my window facing the mountains of the Shomron, and think about all my brother and sister Jews who ought to be coming home. I think of my sister, her sons (my nephews), their children, my cousins - all of whom stay in exile and imperil their lives thereby. I think of my friends (and I count you among them) as well and worry about them, knowing that the only power I have is the power of faith, and the persuasiveness this keyboard grants me.
May you look into your heart and remember your Home. No, not Long Island or Brooklyn or the Bronx - but your true Home, where Rachel, the beloved of Jacob, where her soul weeps for the children who have not yet returned to her.
Shabbat Shalom,
Reuven
180 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Elvira,
On last thing. No, I am not lecturing you, nor criticizing you. You perceive well the ways of your people and the Torah of truth lies upon your tongue. A woman of valor indeed, far more compassionate, cunning and intelligent than any rat of any variety.
181 - Zedd
Nancy
I don't have issues with Jews. Please don't involve me in the madness that you choose to engage in. You have absolutely no need to point anything out to me about Jews. I'm not even pissed at Elvira. I'm annoyed with her. She is like a little pariah just yapping and nipping without reason. She tags on and just harasses. Its like being in a Salvador Dali painting. Last time she followed me from thread to thread talking about something that was unrelated to what I was saying. Making accusations then responding as if I had made the statement that she made up. It looks as if she's starting that. It's just crazy to read someone talking about people of MY ilk (snicker). It sounds like the smatterings of a meltdown.
There are horrible Jews, simply terrible people and there are kind and loving Jews. Like every other group. (I feel silly for even having to explain how I feel about Jews... sigh). Its all so crazy in a funny and dramatic way. Now I'm Archie Bunker because I didn't buy Ruvy's post. For a person to take credit for the successes of another because of a sort of shared "heritage" is childish. As for them being any smarter than others, that is just childish. I cant take credit for MLK and say WE are xyz. That's just embarrassing.
Prior to Elvira's posts would you have tagged my contributions and defined me the way this woman has decided to spin "me"? I don't even come from a generation that cares about Jewness. Its all so cartoonish. I can just see scores of the gen X ers having meetings about Jews. Its all outdated. Who cares....
182 - Clavos
Prior to Elvira's posts would you have tagged my contributions and defined me the way this woman has decided to spin "me"?
As regards the attitudes you've expressed towards whites and men since you first started commenting here on BC: YES, emphatically, yes.
You've shown a clear bias and have portrayed the same attitude about blackness (only Blacks can know anything about Blacks) that Elvira has been talking about.
You asked.
183 - Zedd
Clavos
I was not referring to my views of White male's contribution to the injury of millions and their cultures over the ages, all over the globe. A very true statement. None could be truer.
I am speaking about what Elvira is saying.
I doesn't look like you have really read this thread.
The worse think that I have done on this thread is say that what they were saying about the Black community was not true or not a characteristic of Black culture.
What is so bad about that. Why should I agree to something that is not true.
How is that saying that no one can say anything about Blacks but Blacks.
You read Elvira's definition of what I said to RUVY, not her and ran with it. The question is, did I say that?
I said they are wrong because they don't know. If they don't know, they don't know.
Stop joining. Geez now your championing koooks.
You are intelligent. Stand on your own two feet.
184 - Zedd
Nancy
Sorry correction. The first couple of sentences should have read:
Correct, I don't have issues with Jews. But please don't involve me in the madness that you choose to engage in.
185 - Zedd
Elvira
My comment was basically that I don't think you are all that bright. I don't know if you are mentally ill or not but don't write to me.
186 - Nancy
That's OK; I understood you.
187 - Zedd
STM
We use alcohol mainly in place of Dettol for cuts. Dettol was a cure all. My granny used it for everything.
The English countryside is intoxicating. Very few times does the real thing surpass its renditions. Post cards and movies don't do it justice. The simple ride from Gatwick to Heathrow is enchanting.
However SA has some scenery to die for too. The variation in that tiny country is remarkable. Seeing homes embedded on the side of the greenest mountain (complicated modern structures or picturesque little huts) is beautiful.
I agree with you, what has happened in that country is incredible. I keep holding my breath hoping that it sticks. I may be prejudice but that country, even before the end of Apartheid, feels magical and full of a lot of confidence, while understated, its palatable. Its unique.
188 - Nancy
Sounds like the cough syrup my grandmother used to make: 1 oz each of lemon juice, honey, - & a 1/2 cup of Jack Daniels! After taking it, it didn't matter if you were sick; you didn't feel it any more & didn't care if you did.
189 - Nancy
Out of curiousity, where on earth did the term "honkey" come from? Is that for people who honk, or something?
190 - Nancy
Out of curiousity, where on earth did the term "honkey" come from? Is that for people who honk, or something? 'Nigger' obviously comes from the Latin for 'black'. 'Mick' refers to the (in someone's opinion) ubiquitous name of 'Mickey' among the poor Irish. 'Polack' is a variation of 'Polish, Poland', ditto 'hunky' of 'Hungary, Hungrian'. 'Chink', 'Jap','Ivan', 'Canuck', &'Paky' - all stem from similar derivations. 'Wop' stands for 'Waiting On Pier' - a reference to poor Italians arriving in NYC to be picked up by their sponsors here. 'Frog' stems from the English reaction to the use in French cuisine of frogs' legs. Ditto 'beaner' for people from Mexico, where beans are a staple of the diet. Some are self-explanatory: 'wetback' is someone who swam across the Rio Grande. Those are the only US slurs I've heard, thus far.
Kike is a new one; never heard that before. Where did 'kike' come from (what word?)?
Just out of interest, what other slurs are out there I haven't listed. If we're gonna talk offensive, we may as well list them all.
191 - Zedd
Honky:
Some people suggest that it comes from the White Johns that would go to Black areas and honk for prostitutes
Another explanation says it comes from a derogatory name for Hungarians "bohunk".
Another says it comes from "honky tonk". A type of wild saloon in the West. Patrons were called "Honkies".
192 - Nancy
"Bohunk" !? Another new one. Good explanations. Thanks. What other terms of endearment does anybody have that haven't already been listed?
193 - Zedd
All of those words sound so silly.
If you were to say them all in a row, it would sound really funny and childish.
Who really cares about such foolishness. Why did they start in the first place??
People are mad and hilarious.
194 - Nancy
As to why they started, their origins, that's what I'm asking. & yeah, they do seem a little silly. Some of them I don't see how or why they're considered derogatory. For example, 'Bohunk' or 'hunky'. Why would anybody who was Hungarian be offended at being referred to by a term meaning 'hungarian'? Like calling an Englishman a 'Limey' or an American a 'Yank'; I just don't see where the insult is.
It's odd what people around the world consider offensive. The English think anything referring to blood, i.e. 'bloody' is obscene. Chinese resent mention of turtles. To call someone the son of a turtle is a gross insult. In Spanish, it's "su madre" - your mother. Nothing else - just, 'your mother'.
Oh, I've got another one: 'kraut', i.e. a German, since Germans were supposed to eat huge amounts of sauerkraut. So, how does a description of my eating habits translate into an insult? If someone called me a 'hershey' for my love of chocolate, or 'carryout' for my love of catered food, I wouldn't be offended.
195 - Zedd
Where does the phrase come out of his bag come from? Never heard of that. What bag?
196 - Zedd
I guess my head is supposed to spin if you call me Carbo or Potato or Roast or Sushi or........
The turtle thing made me buckle my knees. That was hilarious.
197 - Elvira Black
Firstly, I wrote a long comment and I think I lost it.
Secondly, I just came back and started to read the first para of Zedd's comments. I can see I'm gonna have some fun with the rest.
Just for starters, Zedd, I WROTE THIS PIECE. YOu are the interloper, the harasser, the heckler here. Why don;'t you just take your hateful bullshit and GET THE HELL OFF OF MY THREAD!!!
Likewise, you didn't write any of the threads I "hounded" you on.
Thirdly, correct me if I'm wrong, but do you write/blog on BC or elsewhere? Typically, the "woman of no links" has no link to a URL.
You think you can manipulate me on my own article? You've got another think coming, my friend. I will wear you down. That I can guarantee you. I've got you in an intellectual head lock and you don't stand a chance.
Never underestimate the power of a cynical New York Jew with a flair for words and a sense of humor (not on this article, unfortunately--you and your ilk have sucked it right out of me like the vampires you are).
198 - Elvira Black
:Let's compare and contrast, shall we?
Zedd (today): z'She is like a little pariah just yapping and nipping without reason.zzz'
Elvira (ages ago, on another thread re: the ravings of Moonraven.
To paraphrase:
"Moonraven is nipping at the heels of Dave Nalle, like a yapping chihuahua."
Clavos, you are my witness. Either we are so sympatico that even our insults are becoming identical (not) or .... whatever. Perhaps.
Discuss...
199 - MCH
If the "N" word is Nalle, than yes, it should be banned, IMO.
200 - Zedd
OMG... HELP!!
201 - Elvira Black
Deconstruction du Zedd:
Zedd (today): "She is like a little pariah just yapping and nipping without reason.
She is like a little pariah...
Do you know the meaning of this word, Zedd? It is wise to know what a word means before one uses it.
Or, if you do, why am I a pariah? As I said, I have a place here--tbis is my article. Pariah as in the sense of everyone disagreeing and shunning me? Obiously not.
Funny how a "little pariah" brings to mind a little dog--like, maybe, a Chihuahua? )see comment above.) Eerie, isn't it?
Moonraver was dubbed a chihuauhua because of her Latin American...um...concern and interests. The precise word--le mot juste--so that people could paint an accurate picture in their mind, as opposed to "that Jew" or "that black." Capiche?
.
But pariah, chihuahua--they do sound a tad similar, now don't they? Pariah, chihuahua--why am I taking this nitpicky "tone" with you? What's the freaking difference?
Just yapping and nipping without reason
At what or whom, exactly? You? Heloise? Blacks?
"Communication skills" are a wonderful thing. I like to choose my words carefully--just the right one for the occasion. Not the most pretentious sounding word, but the right one.
Otherwise, people will misinterpret and misunderstand you, and will start to "yap" at you for clarification.
PS: Syntax counts too.
202 - Zedd
Clavos:
Care to chime in on #197 and #198
Christopher:
I was really proud of my comments to Elvira. Why did you erase them. I was brilliant!!!!
MCH:
Beyond funny!! Watch it though, Clavos is going to come after you. You messed with his lead mentor (although Elvira seems to be taking Daves place). CHUCKLES!!
To add my contribution to the Kook Fest:
I can just see little Clavos (I imagine him to be real tiny) sitting at the feet of this Jewish lady (like Ray Ramano's mom), except she's dressed in sausage tight black mermaid dress like the character Elvira. He's massaging her toes and she's online typing wildly like an organist. She pauses only to insult him and telling him that he failed to rub in the technique that she asked for. She is all hysterical and saying that he failed her and is working for THE ILK, in a twiney obnoxious voice. Clavos sobs and begs for forgiveness only she's forgotten what she said to him and is rambling on loudly over his apology about what color she is going to use for her next manicure and how Zedd and her ilk (I love having an ilk... never had one before), anyway, how they are peering into her bathroom window. Clavos picks up a butcher knife....no... a GUN, no several guns. He debates between pistols, semiautomatic handguns, machine pistols, revolvers and "derringers". He clenches his fists and moans out loud “Ohhhhh WWDD!!!” (what would Dave do??). He decides to go for all of them. When he lifts them, he discovers that they are too heavy for his itty bitty self so he falls down and shoots a huge hole in the ceiling. A couch falls on him and he’s coughing, covered with huge balls of lint and dust. Elvira screams “quit lying around!!!. Could you fix me a burrito or something” ? Alas, The ILK escapes.
Sorry Clavos I couldn’t resist. I know you have a sense of humor. My ilk made me do it.
203 - Zedd
Chris
For example my virtual buddy Ruvy in Jerusalem often uses that line of reasoning in a vain attempt to prevent non-Israelis, sometimes even Israelis that don't live in Israel, from commenting or opining on events in that region. It's just not going to happen...
Ruvy talks enough about that reagion for all of us on the world wide web, let alone this site.
I love the extreme drama of it all though. Its quite entertaining. Elvira is at it too now. Even though I'm kinda scared, I almost want to pop some popcorn and watch it all unfold.... but I sorta want to have a restraining order typed up, just in case.
204 - Christopher Rose
You're not above needing a little restraint yourself sometimes, Ms Zedd...
205 - Zedd
OMG! Its hopeless.
206 - Elvira Black
Zedd 202:
That was pretty funny, actually...
Don't flatter yourself, though--I have no desire to stalk you. Again, remember: my article, my thread. You: commenter on my thread. If anyone's "stalking" anyone, it's not me.
207 - Elvira Black
Ruvy:
Thanks so much for your incredibly kind comments. As I think I've mentioned, I am going to Amsterdam in May, and BG and I may travel further on from there. I feel far too much like a sitting duck in NYC post 9/11--though being in the Bronx, perhaps we wouldn't get the first hit (I doubt they want to bother bombing the Botanical Gardens).
But I have thought about becoming an expat with BG sometime down the line. Amsterdam seems just as diverse as NY--I think it may even be majority non-white by now, which seems counterintuitive, but folks from around the world are drawn to Amsterdam as they are to NYC, like a moth to a flame.
Yes, I know even Amsterdam was not "safe" during WWII, but I'm talking relative safety here. Virtually no violent crime; liberal attitude and yet people abide by the necessary rules to maintain civility; gorgeous city surrounded by canals; stunning architecture that is centuries old; wonderful museums; etc etc....
Maybe that's my baby step, Ruvy; perhaps from there I will visit more of Europe, and perhaps from there I will venture further toward the homeland, at least for a visit.
Only thing is that I can't quite put my mind around is the Orthodox thing, though in another way I really can. And though you feel that this is the only place where Jews have a fighting chance to survive in the long run, it sure is a dangerous place. I know it is worth it to you, but would it be worth it to me?
So I think I will spend a bit of time being the "wandering Jew" until I decide where to alight.
208 - Elvira Black
Nancy:
As usual when I read your comments, I feel like there's a Vulcan mind meld thing going on. Yes, it is very very true that only those who are closest to you can cut through all the politesse and tell it like it really is--though I'm a total wimp that way. If someone asks me if their dress makes them look fat, I probably wouldn't admit it. I try to be scrupulously honest, but little white lies sometimes seem like the only right thing to do--though I can see that it might be doing a disservice to a friend who can genuinely take it.
STM (and I'd assume, many of his countrymen) seem to have perfected the art of turning an insult into an endearment (shades of the "n" word?) Wish our society/culture could evolve to that level.
If Heloise was not like this before (though I doubt that no warning signs were there on other threads or posts) it truly is a puzzlement to me.
As far as Zedd, I think she is conflicted. She wants to be able to dictate to others what they are permitted to say and not say, which is a big no no in my book. And again, the fact that she is not a native born African American, combined with her African/Euro background, makes me wonder why she feels so justified tin setting herself up as the authority for all things AA.
I think she is revelling in her ability to weave in and out of these threads: sometimes being provocative, sometimes funny, sometimes conciliatory.
But the fact that she attacked a dear BC friend and accused him of lying when his story sounded INCREDIBLY plausible is the deal breaker for me. Just as there is no way around the mountainous obstacle that is Heloise's blatant and spiteful ignorance and cruelty, so for me there is no way around the fact that in some fundamental ways, Zedd and I do not see eye to eye.
I reject the notion of a double standard of judgement and culpability for whites and blacks. We are all in this together--it's not a contest to see who's suffered the most. Part of the human condition seems to involve mistrust, territoriality, a lust for power, greed, and violence. But it doesn't have to be that way--or does it?
As for me, I believe in the Golden Rule; I believe in mitzvahs; I believe in karma; I believe that living well is the best revenge. I for one wouldn't want to rent the space inside Zedd's head for all the tea in China. My MO is to make sure that I do nothing to deliberately do harm to others because I want to be able to sleep at night, secure in the knowledge that if I died tomorrow I could go out knowing I did my level best to do good rather than court evil, and perhaps to leave the world a little better rather than worse.
But it's obvious that I do have my breaking point. I am a softie at heart, but if someone makes it clear that they are out for blood I can be merciless.
I guess this is a prime example of "being careful what you wish for." Though I'm generally a "comment whore" and don't care if comments are naughty or nice, even I am reaching the end of my patience. I value most of the comments here, but I seem to have reached a philosophical impasse with Zedd which may well be insurmountable.
As long as she continues to insist that only whites can be racist because they hold all the power; as long as she continues to insist that Ruvy is a self-important liar; and as long as she continues to be two-faced and hypocritical, I'm afraid I just can't lay down the sword. Maybe it's that Old Testament "an eye for an eye" thing.
Thing with Zedd is, she can attack to the point that Christopher has to censor her, but then turn around and declare that it's all so silly and funny as if she isn't part of the problem. Then folks get disarmed, a truce may be called, but eventually those belief systems that comprise the foundation of her being surface again, and the cycle is repeated.
Why go over this again and again? I have more horror stories of crooked real estate brokers, attorneys, and lawyers to relay, just for starters. At least there my vituperative side may actually be used for some productive good by subjecting these slimeballls to the vagaries of cyberspace.
In any case, Nancy, I agree with almost all you've said here from the beginning. Many thanks.
209 - sr
Lady of Song. Jackie Gleason as Ralph Kramden on the TV show the Honey Mooners said. ELVIRA BABY, YOUR THE GREATEST.
210 - Elvira Black
Thanks sr--good to see you here!
211 - Zedd
Elvira
I wish you had read the "attack" that Christopher had erased. It was an expression of how appalled I was at your incessant yapping and how I found it a nuisance. I said that your behavior displayed a lack of understanding of the big picture.
The "attack" was not any where near the things that I read daily on every thread on BC. I was surprised that Chris deleted that statement. I've lost a little respect for him because I thought he was above certain things and I was wrong.
But the "attack" was not what you think it was. Its important that I relay that because I don't do the types of attacks that are prevalent on this blog site. I WAS however very thorough in expressing my disdain for what you do. I did not however ATTACK you.
I do wish he would have left it because now it seems as if its fueling another layer of delusion.
Christopher: I am really disappointed in what you have done. I read all manner of vileness on this site. I am baffled as to how you came to the conclusion that my comments were more of an attack than the rubbish that you know is an ongoing part of BC. You have also allowed Elvira to peck and peck based on nothing. I suppose there is a solidarity that goes further than ideology. I just thought that you were above that sort of thing. I have to say, I have lost some respect for you.
This woman now thinks that I attacked her and is now telling the people who view this board that I attacked her.
If you have the capability of reviewing those comments, please do and either re-post or acknowledge their mildness compared to the madness which prevails here on BC. Also how do you ignore her contributions and chastise my comments IN RESPONSE. I thought you were a bigger person.
212 - Elvira Black
Zedd said: I wish you had read the "attack" that Christopher had erased. It was an expression of how appalled I was at your incessant yapping and how I found it a nuisance. I said that your behavior displayed a lack of understanding of the big picture.
Once again, Zedd, you seem to forget that I am the author of this article. You are a "visitor" or commenter. If you find my incessant yapping annoying and find me a nuisance, all you have to do is stop reading and commenting. I do not owe you a thing.
Your frequent admonishing of other commenters ("how dare you this...why did you take that tone with me," shame on you, I'm very disappointed in you" etc) seems more suitable to a parent addressing an errant child than a supposedly mature literate intelligent woman discussing political and social issues with her peers. You think I'm talking down to blacks? Take a good hard look at your "tone" with whites.
The "attack" was not any where near the things that I read daily on every thread on BC. I was surprised that Chris deleted that statement. I've lost a little respect for him because I thought he was above certain things and I was wrong.
It was obviously a "personal" attack. Click on the link above that explains BC's comment policy. If you read it through and still disagree, then and only then would I challenge Christopher about it. Otherwise, once again, black or white, Jew or Gentile, you must play by the rules if you want to remain in the game.
But the "attack" was not what you think it was. Its important that I relay that because I don't do the types of attacks that are prevalent on this blog site. I WAS however very thorough in expressing my disdain for what you do. I did not however ATTACK you.
Zedd, you are reacting in an immature, childish manner here. Calling me stupid, insane and drunk or otherwise implying such are ad hominem arguments, aka attacks (in some cases), that have nothing to do with the topics at hand. It is an intellectually lazy attempt to divert attention from the issues we have discussed here and a way to wriggle out of addressing my questions and comments to you in response to yours.
I am obviously intelligent. I am well educated and well read. I worked as a professional writer and freelancer for many years--that's how I paid the rent, and they don't hire writers based on the color of your hair--or skin, for that matter, and certainly not if you're stupid. I am part of a thriving multicultural city and community where I am exposed to all races and cultures on a daily basis, which makes judging whole groups of people en masse a lot harder to pull off without realizing the sheer absurdity of it.
I do wish he would have left it because now it seems as if its fueling another layer of delusion.
No Zedd--the delusion is yours alone, and as I said if you would make yourself clear and not muddy things up with childish ad hominem attacks, keeping in mind the comment policy, I think you would not be quite as frustrated.
Christopher seems to be excercising admirable restraint here--he can be much harsher than he is being in terms of actually confronting you in the comments section in addition to snipping out your personal attacks.
Again, do you think Christopher really cares if you have lost respect for him? He has a job to do and will not give special dispensation to embittered minority groups (especially Ruvy).
Again, your "tone" with Ruvy and others was that of a mother chiding a misbehaving child. If you don't give others the respect they deserve but talk down to them as if you know what's best for all, how do you expect to garner respect in return? No one likes condescension, Zedd--you've made it clear that you do not appreciate it (though in my case and Ruvy's, none was intended).
Aside from this, your attempts to tell other commenters what is proper for them to think or say while exercising zero restraint in your own comments is hypocritical and immature.
In short: who do you think you are? The mother superior of BC, whites, and Jews everywhere? Mothers may be able to control what their kids say and do, but we are all adults here (supposedly) and most people, like you, desire to be treated with some respect and not attacked for expressing their views.
The golden rule applies quite aptly here, Zedd.
Christopher: I am really disappointed in what you have done. I read all manner of vileness on this site. I am baffled as to how you came to the conclusion that my comments were more of an attack than the rubbish that you know is an ongoing part of BC.
You have also allowed Elvira to peck and peck based on nothing. I suppose there is a solidarity that goes further than ideology. I just thought that you were above that sort of thing. I have to say, I have lost some respect for you.
Christopher "allowed" me to peck and peck? He is the comments editor, not my father!
And what solidarity are you referring to, Zedd--that Christopher and I are both white? Get real--shouting "racism" anytime someone else cries foul and demands that you follow the rules of the site just like anyone else discredits you and makes you look foolish. Do you think you deserve special treatment?
This woman now thinks that I attacked her and is now telling the people who view this board that I attacked her.
You did, Zedd. What do you call it when you label me crazy (though I am, actually), drunk, and stupid here? it's childish, inane name calling which has made me lose respect for YOU--though I suppose that only your respect of others counts for anything in your eyes.
If you have the capability of reviewing those comments, please do and either re-post or acknowledge their mildness compared to the madness which prevails here on BC. Also how do you ignore her contributions and chastise my comments IN RESPONSE. I thought you were a bigger person.
You are not a bigger person, Zedd--in fact, you seem to be a rather small minded one all the way around, and a sore loser as well.
To my knowledge, I have never seen Christopher "relent" and republish banned comments. Do you think your whining and foot stomping childishness will change his mind this time?
Again--if you've seen some of the exchanges between him and Ruvy, you might agree with my assessment that he is going a lot easier on you than he could--and that's putting it mildly.
He's trying to stay out of the way here--not "taking sides." When it comes to Ruvy, however, he frequently and openly makes his disagreements with him very very clear. You should consider yourself fortunate that he has chosen not to comment here, though it would be awesome if he would. But he's not my daddy, Zedd, so I can fight my own battles because I know the ins and outs of the comment policy, and obviously you don't or refuse to follow them. Unfair, Zedd.
And another thing--in an attempt to try to figure out what went so wrong here with Heloise, I again went through the comments and saw nothing but unprovoked bigotry and hatred exhibited in her comments.
Christopher has not removed a single one of those. Perhaps it is because she was technically attacking Jews as a group rather than me in particular. Yes, people say many heinous things on these threads, but appalling as some of them are, they stay in as long as they are not a PERSONAL attack on another commenter.
If I were Christopher, I might have cut out all refs you made to how stupid, drunk and/or crazy I am, but I think you phrased these as more of a rhetorical question, so once again, fair play within the parameters of the BC rules.
Have you seen me once resort to whining to Christopher about how "mean" and "disrespectful" you and Heloise have been on MY thread?
As for me, I wish he'd left them in too--you're only making yourself look more and more foolish with each comment you add here. I can just sit back and watch the magic happen.
PS--case in point, Zedd--I said you're making yourself look foolish--I did not say you were foolish, as that would be both against the comment policy and incredibly presumptuous on my part to boot.
213 - Elvira Black
Once again, a font glitch--that's what I get for not previewing my comment.
214 - Elvira Black
Nancy et al:
As I said above, I went back to the early comments here in an attempt to try to discern what went so horribly wrong between Heloise and I. Prior to that, I read her latest post on BC, and though I perceived it as perhaps a tad biased, it was still an intelligently composed argument--save perhaps for the fact that we are not in a postion to directly "elect" the Secretary of State or Supreme Court Justices.
I can only conclude that in my opinion although she doesn't have a totally unreasonable attitude toward whites, she does toward Jews. This is crystal clear.
As Clavos noted, it is quite amazing to see how one student of antropology can be as rational, reasonable, and fair-minded as Nancy and another can be so full of hatred towards Jews, as Heloise is. The very nature of the social sciences in general--and anthropology in particular--tends to lend itself to transcending such ignorant stereotypes and biases. As Nancy pointed out, as a species we are all capable of heinous things. The most valuable lesson that the social sciences can provide is the realization that every race is capable of every heinous thing and every laudable thing known to man (and woman). This realization usually helps promote more tolerance of those different from oneself, rather than less.
Perhaps Heloise had some negative close encounters with Jews. But a more likely scenario, I think, is that she has not been exposed to very many, and thus has no evidence to challenge her bigoted belief system.
I also sensed a possible cynicism and sense of opportunism when she referred to her master's degree in that article. She said something that seemed to me to imply that though she took advantage of the opportunities that such a degree would afford her, she also "knew" that this knowlege was imparted by the "white (and Jewish?) establishment" (my quotes, not hers). So she appaently took what she could use and left the rest.
It IS quite possible to be technically literate and still be a bigot--especially if one takes pains to make sure that one's "research" only supports one's preconceived notions about the state of the world and those who inhabit itt.
On a personal note: Within two weeks, I am moving from Manhattan to the Bronx. As a middle class white, I know that I am in the minority here for a reason.
When people think of Manhattan residents, especially now that Manhattan has become an enclave for the very rich, they don't think "urban ghetto." When they think of the Bronx, they defiinitely do.
As a result, many people who have been priced out of other boroughs don't realize that there is a cheap, cool alternative to Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens rents right here in the Bronx--which is separated from Manhattan's northern stretch by a mere sliver of water. It wiil take me about three minutes by bus to reach Manhattan from the Bronx--albeit in an area still quite similar to the Bronx in socioeconomic makeup. But that, too, is changing, since any and every area of Manhattan is now considered prime real estate, or potentially so.
As a result, I'm taking advantage of the fact that price-wise, the Bronx is the best kept secret in the city--at least for many whites who assume that because the faces they see on the street here are predominantly black or brown that the 'hood is therefore beyond the pale.
These timid souls will sing a different tune a few years down the line as the area becomes more and more "gentrified"--which translates into more "middle class" goods and services such as Manhattan enjoys as well as higher rents and prices. But as it is now, it is perfect for me. If I need a fancy spice or something else I can only get in the "city," it's only about a half hour's subway ride away to midtown. For day to day needs, the Bronx not only matches but exceeds what I can get for my money in Manhattan.
In short, when we come face to face with those different from ourselves, it becomes much harder to hold onto the notion that any one group is the "enemy." We are all homo sapiens, and more alike than different--though every one of us is unique. That seems like a beautiful thing--or potentially so. Obviously it can go either way, depending on the person, government, and so on.
215 - Elvira Black
Al Barger:
A belated thanks to you for being among the handful of people on this thread refusing to walk on eggshells when it comes to the views expressed here by the likes of Heloise and Zedd.
As I took pains to explain to Zedd, I am perfectly capable of fighting my own battles with commenters, and generally relish the challenge. So it's not a matter of childishly asking for backup as if we were having a fight in a playground, but rather expressing some dismay that even here at BC, apparently PC mania is still capable of inhibiting or even eclipsing truly free speech.
If one harbors prejudices against another group and expresses them here, they may be challenged on it. But it is possible that some great good can come out of it. Under normal circumstances, perhaps the attacker might learn something they didn't know and be willing to try to understand the flaws in their biased views.
But Heloise is not one of these. Her only purpose here was to take jabs at Jews and reinforce the classic, time honored stereotypes that can be found mirrored worldwide, esp in the Middle East.
One might ask what her agenda really is. By setting up a double standard in which she is allowed to attack Jews but will quickly cry foul if they take her up on it, she is exhibiting a kind of intellectual bullying that shows that she has not progressed all that far, despite her alleged college degrees.
I don't expect anyone to run to my defense, per se, but taking a page from Zedd's book I do find myself a tad disappointed that so many have remained silent in the face of the unalloyed bigotry and ignorance displayed here. I feel fairly certain that if the attackers were not black that many more of you might be all over them like--you should pardon the expression--white on rice.
Again Al, thanks for having some balls.
216 - STM
Nancy wrote: "Sounds like the cough syrup my grandmother used to make: 1 oz each of lemon juice, honey, - & a 1/2 cup of Jack Daniels!"
Sounds good to me Nancy! I'll have some of that. I wish my gran had given me something with JD in it. PS Elvira, I love your writing ... please don't stop writing these kinds of stories because of a touch of controversy. It's all grist for the mill ...
217 - Elvira Black
Yet another VERY INTERESTING OBSERVATION:
Going back yet again to Heloise's contributions, I noticed that she did not include her URL link here, though she has at least one blog and is a frequent contributor to BC.
And why might that be? In other words, once again, what's her underlying motive?
Quite obvious, really--she wants to be able to heckle my article with impunity while trying to avoid me "retaliating" on her posts by passing herself off as a mere commenter.
That, my friends, is out and out dishonesty and totally unfair play.
PS, Zedd--you stood idly by as well as Heloise ripped into me. If you don't share her views, why didn't you challenge them here? I suspect in part because you feel that the races must "stick together" and "support" each other at all costs.
As I've taken great pains to explain, to me an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. I don't care if you're Jew, gentile, brown, black Asian, etc--if you are a jerk, I will call you out on it.
If you are a Jew who behaves in ways that disgrace all Jews, I will have the most contempt of all for you.
If you are a black person who seems to embrace their "blackness" in a way that shows you are still unassimilated into the culture and country you were born into, I will call you on it--all the while keeping in mind that there are valid reasons for your rage. But that rage is counterproductive, and only by rising above and transcending such nonsense together can we attempt to move on.
Comedians have an uncanny sense of how to push the envelope when it comes to the unwritten, unspoken beliefs and prejudices we all carry. But the thing is that just as sterotypes can be mocked and made light of, so it is possible to take it yet one step further and cherish the diversity that folks from different countries and cultures bring here.
Yes, if one wants to succeed in America, one must assimilate or work hard to make sure one's children will have the means to do so. But it does not follow that everyone must be rendered "white." I can still admire Woody Allen's Jewish brand of humor, Eddie Murphy's portrayal of blacks versus whites, Dice Clay's charicature of the "typical" biased, sexist "pig," and Howard Stern's simultaneous skewering and embracing of everyone--even a KKK member.
Aside from the healing power of humor, food is one of the other great "universal solvents" when it comes to realizing that we are all more similar than different. It's hard to completely despise another culture when you are enjoying their cuisine. It just doesn't make sense! We all have to eat; we all enjoy food and the camraderie that can come from it.
In other words, it's harder to stay mad and hateful when you're busting a gut laughing at yourself and others or stuffing your guts with the "enemies'" food--or perhaps doing both at once.
218 - Elvira Black
In the interests of FAIRNESS and full disclosure, I am compelled to note here that going back to Heloise's latest article to comment, I saw that she routinely omits her URL there as well.
Though it may be unintentional, it still seems rather disengenuous--and intentional or no, it is not what I would consider "fair play."
219 - Christopher Rose
Elvira: Please get a grip of your tagging technique!
220 - Zedd
Elvira
You really need to calm down. You will loose the credibility that you gained from that very nice article.
People have tried to come on this thread to discuss something of substance but that conversation just flattens because you are out of control and on a crusade over... who really knows.
There are very few female contributors on this blog. Your rantings sort of support what many men THINK women are like.
So I don't buy Ruvy's comments. He made a retort to me. It ended. Its been discussed. Don't you think its time for you to move on?
No topic is being discussed. Your article was good as I said but your contributions will negate the respect that you gained.
Stop yourself.
I didn't address Heloise because she thinks she is JFK. Why would you waste time arguing with her? I do tell her I don't agree ever so often but for the most part when things are out of control, I just ignore; its the same with moonraven and you.
221 - Clavos
Elvira writes (to Zedd):
Your frequent admonishing of other commenters ("how dare you this...why did you take that tone with me," shame on you, I'm very disappointed in you" etc) seems more suitable to a parent addressing an errant child than a supposedly mature literate intelligent woman discussing political and social issues with her peers. You think I'm talking down to blacks? Take a good hard look at your "tone" with whites. (emphasis mine)
Quoted for Truth. (With thanx to gonzo marx)
[Corrected for code accuracy. With thanx to me!]
222 - Clavos
closing italics Sorry!
[That doesn't work, Clavos. Your options are: 1. Be more careful! 2. Leave it alone as I'll surely fix it 3. e-mail me. Cheers, Comments Editor]
223 - Heloise
Elvira wrote: Yet another VERY INTERESTING OBSERVATION:
Going back yet again to Heloise's contributions, I noticed that she did not include her URL link here, though she has at least one blog and is a frequent contributor to BC.
And why might that be? In other words, once again, what's her underlying motive?
Heloise aka Netemara wrote: There's my URL. It is posted all over BC anyway.
Elvira I just took some of my precious time to read your comments. I think you love me. Or hate me. But that's okay. We have a kindred spirit obviously.
You are so wrong about me and Jews. I have had no less than five Jewish boyfriends. So, you are wrong on that score. And naturally known many Jewish women as well. They are smart people certainly.
But the piece about Condi and Clarence drives home the point that we can INFLUENCE who gets these jobs. Did you see what happened to Harriet Myers? I wrote a bunch of stuff about her lying about being Catholic. The woman is Jewish. And what's more she was trying to hide it. She is probably also an atheist. Not sure.
That was my point. That the black community, before internet though, could have fought harder to keep Thomas out just as Myers was kept out of that chair.
I am beginning to feel like Mel Gibson. But if you know anything about JFK part of what I have to live down is being or being called anti-semitic.
In this life my family made us read every book about the holocaust and Hitler. Beginning from a young age we were aware of Jewish history. I have read books from right and left on Jewish history.
I work with physicists, the top dogs, not saying where, also. They were mostly Jewish men. They love me and the feeling is mutual.
So, yes, I am railing against the racism that Jews have helped institutionalize. I also edited for a large corporation. That is my position. Not against any one Jewish person. Yes, many many Jews are in my life.
Elvira, let's see if we can transform/transmute some of these emotions. Believe it or not Cornell West and a Jewish guy, don't recall his name, wrote a book in which they go at each other and it is all recorded. DO you know the book? You can go to Amazon and look it up.
But it shows you how what we are doing is done in the hallowed halls of Harvard no less. Yes, I am an anthropologist. Most of my teachers were not Jews. But the one Jewish teacher I did have, a woman, was so mean to me. She also gave me the lowest grade and treated me like shit. They all told me that I could not write at all. That I would never be a writer, and never get a master's degree from their school. Yes, white professors told me that stuff. I was the first black person to get a degree from their department. My French language abilities helped me also to get the degree in record time.
But this woman prof and I, we had the same last name (my maiden name). Go figure. But here and there some people have hated on me.
I will pop in here and there if it makes you feel better Elvira. You seem to miss me :)
Heloise
224 - Elvira Black
Dearest Christopher:
With a tip of the hat to Heloise, I am a bit dismayed at the fact that the only thing you have to say after all this is that I forgot to close the ital tag!
OK, my bad. I will preview every comment like a good girl--hopefully. But really, Chrisopher...you did make one or two mild mannered comments, but considering how you regularly light into Ruvy, why no words of wisdom from you here?
Yes, I know you have cut some of Zedd's comments out, but I also wonder how they could possibly have been more egregious than some of Heloise's, which you also said nothing about.
As I suspect, Heloise did not technically violate the comment policy, since she spoke of Jews in general rather than me in particular, as I recall.
But really, C, don't you have any other opinion on the goings on on this long thread? There's been a lot said here, and a lot of ground has been covered.
Plus which, I wouldn't have cried for daddy if you had left Zedd's comments alone. When people are given enough rope, etc etc etc. And in a way, you're protecting her by omitting what must be some rather questionable comments. Why not show all what she really thinks of me, and why? Though I defintely get the gist even in the censored version.
Despite touching on a lot, my main thrust, when all is said and done, is this:
It is not a question of "acting white," but rather of "acting American" when one assimilates (or paves the way for their childten to assimilate) into the middle class culture. If the bourgeois lifestyle turns you off, you can still be a well educated, articulate, non bigoted, boho artist, musician, writer, or what have you.
Humor (a la STM, et al) and food are the great levelers, the golden rule covers all bases, and so on.
Please reply if you have the time and inclination. Thanks.
This should come out roman. or maybe not, since the last comment (not by me) is in ital. You've gotta admit, Christopher, when you're doing the patent pending Dave Nalle call and response technique, forgetting to close itals is a tad understandable.
OK, Elvira, remember.....must....preview....comment.....
225 - Zedd
On the topic of culture and what we know about the cultures that we participate in.
Zing brought up the fact that he did know that Blacks sang a different birthday song. To highlight how significant a knowledge of one's culture is, had I (in this situation) not been a member of that specific culture, it would have been impossible to decipher what song those people were singing on that day in whatever city Zing lives in, in that karaoke bar, at that moment. But because there are things that we know about our cultures or the cultures that we are engaged in, I was able to relay what song it most likely was and to clear up the fact that we sing the normal bday song as well.
Our ethnocentric perspective can be injurious. An individual like Zing who is able to say, I don't know will heal and be and intermediary between different groups. A person who perceives and interprets based on their world view without asking questions will strengthen the divide.
I have worked in the inner city since I was a teenager. There have been people from outside the AA culture who have come in to work and have been there for years and have never understood the people. They have dedicated their time and have accepted a lower wage to do the work but have not, after years (10+)understood the people. They came there to make them more like themselves and missed the beauty of the people. They never got the subtle cultural norms and never knew that they were offensive (rude). They never got that the people were going out of their way to accommodate their ignorance and did not react to their rudeness because of understanding that they just didn't get it (their culture). The service providers however saw themselves the entire time as the givers, the kind ones.
These same service providers would leave the neighborhood and relay horror stories about that community. They would be the voice of that community to the rest of the world. What is unfortunate is that they were simply wrong.
This same scenario has occurred over and over again throughout history. As we now know, the missionaries went into societies and caused havoc while also relaying stories of savages which never existed.
Early explorers did the same thing.