In honor of Black History Month, some black leaders have proposed legislation to ban the "N" word. Are they right?
On February 1, the first day of Black history Month was ushered in with a bit of local media brouhaha here in New York when Queens Councilman Leroy Comrie, hip-hop artist Kurtis Blow Walker, and other community leaders headed a press conference calling for a symbolic, non-binding resolution urging New Yorkers to stop using the "n" word. Though no one could possibly imagine this could be made into a real law (just for starters, the First Amendment implications would be huge) it did give people of all races ample food for thought.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - Zedd
What is Pom short for?
77 - Zedd
Ruvy
In the Middle East, its Semites fighting Semites.
Get over yourself. In all of the world wars it was Whites fighting Whites. What are you on about. Serbia, Croatia its Whites fighting Whites. What is the big deal.
Now if there is going to be a conflict in Africa, who else would be fighting. In Sudan or Somalia or Liberia, who else would be fighting if its not Black against Black.
People will find a reason to have conflict. PEOPLE. That conflict stems from bad discussions by leaders and it eventually ends up causing havoc for the people. The policies of this country have created the ghetto. The chaos in those society is because of an evolutionary process that should have been expected. There is a reason why we don't buy and sell people and treat them like animals other than the fact that its sick, it does something to the people.
What I am surprised about is how people don't talk about is how these people have made it under the most bizarre circumstances while being taunted and jabbed at through their entire path.
78 - Zedd
Ruvy
The people who gassed, baked, and cooked Jews and made functional objects out of their body parts were other Whites. That was White on White violence. Please don't lecture and tisk tisk.
79 - Elvira Black
Zedd:
Although I was a tad disappointed when Heloise ran away after I countered her blatant, ignorant anti-Semistism, I was a bit surprised to see you coming out of your bag just as she did and attacking Ruvy as you did.
What is going on here? Whites are obviously the devil in your eyes and Heloise's--if we try to help and are well meaning, then we're being condescending. If we comment on or even dare to criticize some of the very real problems amongst AA youths, you make up appalling excuses for them, up to and including excusing or even condoning criminality against innocent people. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Shall we just crawl in a corner and die?
Just like fundamentalist Muslims who come to America to reap the economic rewards and freedom of a society they purport to hate and would destroy, these kids are refusing to assimilate and take the steps necessary for Americans of all colors, religions, and creeds to succeed here. The two main components for success are relentless hard work and education. There is no easy short cut to these essential hurdles which all of us must conquer in order to succeed and thrive as Americans.
In the Bronx neighborhood I have come to know and love, there are people of all races coexisting in peace. There are many entrepreneurs who came here from elsewhere and work like dogs to try to maintain a business in these neighborhoods. I cannot think of any African American business owners here--there may be some but they are the exception to the rule. Instead, immigrants from around the globe own and operate their own businesses here, and they do not get any breaks or special treatment. They must sink or swim on their own.
Perhaps because they came here of their own accord and are anxious to embrace the opportunites afforded them here for a better life, they simply get down to the business at hand and endure the sacrifice and hard work necessary to achieve their goals.
A Chinese family operates the local lotto/liquor store. There's a little Caribbean restaurant that opened here recently. Arabs and Hispanics operate the delis and small groceries here. Indians can be found working at the 99 cent stores. Recent arrivals from Latin American lands who do not yet speak the language are nevertheless gainfully employed as stock persons in the local supermarket. I see no Jews here running businessses.
There are some AA managers at fast food restaurants here, but they do not own their own businesses---though that is certainly a legitimate route to success as well.
IN fact the only black "leaders" I see here are ths so-called "true" black Jews who spout their incredibly racist rants every Sunday on Fordham Road. They rail against the Jews and white men who are supposedly running all the local establishments, though if they took a walk down the street they would likely not find a white man or Jew in the bunch. And yes, they blame the white man and Jews for their "oppression," but instead of doing something positive they spew their venom at top amplified volume. NO ONE pays the slightest attention to their insane rants. They are too busy going about their business--to school, to work, shopping, etc.
I don't know how these hate mongers support themselves, but obviuosly their hatred of whites and Jews limits their opportunities. And so they blame the white man for their failure to succeed, instead of going out and succeeding without scapegoating the entire country they share with all races and religions.
Don't you see how your complicity and denial are hurting these kids even more? By refusing to believe what Ruvy told you about the kid beating up a white homeless drunk, you are showing how utterly and completely in denial you really are.
How can you deny the fact that many young AA men wind up in jail? How can you deny that the educational levels of many AA men and the drop out rate does not bode well for their future? How can you deny that the virulent anti Semitism and anti white bigotry which you, Heloise, the young man Ruvy worked with, and countless others exhibit is hurting blacks as well as whites by contributing to the cycle of hatred and misunderstanding that still plague us all?
Like Heloise, you twist and distort everything Ruvy says. I must go on the record as saying that I TOTALLY support and agree with every comment he has made here. The fact that he could be the "better man" and not take the racist bait you laid out for him by retorting in kind shows that he is as admirable a man as I have always known him to be from the first moment I encountered him on this site, over a year ago.
As long as you continue to make excuses for the self-defeating, self-destructive behavior of young kids who are apparently encouraged by elders like you to pusue their cycle of resentment against the white race in general and Jews in particular, I can see only more wasted lives, crime, poverty, and lost potential for many black kids.
As I mentioned to Heloise, simply saying she is an "anthropologist" when it is quite clear she is nothing of the kind seems to reinforce my notion that, like many of all races, she is anxious to have the "goodies" in life without paying her dues. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing indeed.
IN order to become an "antropologist," one must devote close to a decade to study and research and field work. Taking shortcuts to success by playing lotto or pooling one's reasources for some absurd contest is beyond foolish. Heloise herself admitted that she lost thousands but had to try anyway. Of course--this did involve loss of money, but no real effort on her part to be an active agent in her own future or success.
By claiming that every white person who makes an intentional or unintentional slur against a black man is therefore Jewish is absurd. Also absurd and disgusting is her claim that Jews collaborated with Hitler in their own destruction. As with all her outrageous claims, she offered not a shred of proof or links or evidence to support her incredibly hateful, ignorant, and bigoted views. Instead, when confronted withh her lies and biases she finally gave up and slunk away, like the hateful coward she is.
And yes, I remember you giving me the same line of tired bull about how blacks are entitled to be racists because only whites can be racists since they hold all the cards.
Bullshit!!!!!
Blaming the white man for AAs own refusal to assimilate as all other ethnic groups must in order to achieve the American dream is, yes, cowardly and self- destructive. Blacks can rise above, and the fact that Obama has a good chance of holding the most powerful position in the country if not the world shows that your tired old arguements about some vast white conspiracy is nothing but a sad, sad crock of shit.
Shame on YOU, Zedd. I feel sorry for you, Heloise, and anyone else so sadly misinformed. You are only hurting yourself and the hapless, misguided kids who look up to you for advice and guidance in order to negotiate the "real," adult world.
80 - Elvira Black
Zedd:
You said:
"His race has nothing to do with his behavior, nor does his culture.
BULLLLLLSHIT!!!!!
"Do you realise that most African Americans don't even know what the political issues are within the African American community."
And whose fault is that? Whites holding them back? Or sheer apathy, perhaps even laziness?
Like other Americans, most AAs, especially the class that you continue to refer to, are just living their lives
Just living their lives indeed...in appalling ignorance, with the most rabid, self destructive hatred and resentment of their own country, and a refusal to accept that they must PAY THEIR DUES like everyone else.
You truly disgust me, Zedd.
81 - Christopher Rose
From a great Wikipedia article about Alternative words for British.
82 - Zedd
Thanks Chris. I thought as much about the pomegranate/immigrant link.
British People Against Racial Discrimination.
Of WHO??? I laughed out loud!!
People are crazy.
83 - Nancy
Thanks, Chris. Zedd, you're right: people can be very strange indeed. Just look at the crew which hangs around this website.
84 - Zedd
Nancy
I was just thinking. Boy if everyone on this site made up a country, I would be a hermit, hiding in a cave from all of the creeps and weirdos.
85 - Clavos
But how would you hide from yourself, Zedd?
86 - Zedd
Elvira
Are you Okay?? Did you just loose it??
What happened to you???? OMG!!!!
What are you so worked up about and why do I disgust you so much all of a sudden.
You think its genetic that that kid was rude to Ruvy? You think it was his culture that made him rude? Why did the other Blacks not do the exact same thing if it was their culture to do so?? Are you alright??
resentment of their own country
Hmmmmmm I wonder why???
Weren't you the one who wrote this article basically stating that the people in the Bronx are just living their lives and you feel safe???
Why does that cause you to be disgusted by me??
OH MY GOODNESS you are crazy too!!!
87 - Zedd
Elvira
The ignorance that you speak of, is of YOUR culture.
What do you really know about Black culture? Are you not ignorant of it?
I know plenty of Whites who live in appalling ignorance in general. Do you feel as if they define your culture? Even THAT is ignorant.
Actually most Whites are completely ignorant about Blacks. I suppose that interprets into a culture of appalling ignorance. What the people you are referring to don't know about is YOUR culture. Its not that they just don't know anything. Its that they don't understand YOU and how YOU do things and how YOU interpret the world. Your being appalled is because YOU don't know about their world. YOU don't understand it and YOU don't value it. That is all.
You are not right or righteous for that matter. Just different and equally ignorant about THEM.
Now again. These people have overcome enormous odds to be even where they are. SHAME ON YOU!!!
88 - Zedd
Clavos
Don't try so hard. It was a little funny though but only a little.
Too obvious.
89 - Zedd
Ruvy
sadness at seeing their children and grandchildren adopting a culture of hatred of success as a way of rebelling against the hated white man.
I can guarantee that that didn't happen.
They may have been disheartened about the current generation but THAT was never said. You picked up what you wanted out of it. Or you just exaggerated to strengthen your post (a.k.a. lied).
90 - Clavos
It wasn't about "funny" Zedd.
91 - Nancy
But Zedd, WHICH black/AA 'world' are you talking about: the stereotypical world of the American,urban, ghettoized black, or the bourgeoisie of Heloise' family & people like Condi Rice & Colin Powell, or the entirely different experience of someone like my neighbor Vernon, who doesn't i.d. himself as black at all, but as "French"?
I maintain there isn't any one AA 'world', because all black/AA people are no more alike than are all whites, or all reds, or all browns, or all yellows, & their socioeconomic stati run the gamut from dirt-poor street people to the 3rd-gen filthy rich. To insist otherwise is to insist that all blacks eat chitlins, or all hispanics eat beans. It's stereotyping, only this time it's blacks/AAs themselves, some of whom are trying to do the stereotyping for their whole group, setting up "standards" by which to judge Negritude. In effect, those who would institute standards of Negritude are enforcing stereotypes not only on themselves, but reinforcing stereotypes by non-blacks, by making themselves 'apart': "you couldn't understand; it's a Black thing". No, I (fortunately) never had to cope with drug dealers, pimps, & the inner-city ghetto life, but neither have I had to cope with living like Oprah or Robert Johnson, either, and that goes for a huge percentage of black people these days. My neighbor's kid has had both black & white babysitters, gone to middle-class, suburban, racially mixed schools all his life, & would be as lost in the ghetto as would I, even tho his skin is black. I know for a fact I know more of black history & literature etc. than he does - or his parents, for that matter. Nor does he get particularly exercised over Black History Month, or Black this or Black that. But that doesn't make him any less black than some ghetto kid in The Projects, just as I am no less white than, say, Donald Trump or a poor white farming family, even tho culturally I'm a gazillion miles away.
People are people, not herds. Ya gotta take 'em for the individuals they are, not as groups. Otherwise you're still doing them an injustice & denying their full personhood to be who they want to be, as the military puts it.
I cede the soapbox. Thanks.
92 - Zedd
Elvira
I missed post #79. I did not attack Ruvy. I responded to Ruvy. Just because he is Jewish doesn't mean you have to jump in you know. We go back and forth all of the time. He is used to it.
Why are you addressing your comments with Heloise to me? We are two VERY (snicker) different people. Just because you didn't get to spew the rest of your venom at her doesn't mean that you get to look for the next Black person on this thread.
Breath. You seem a little out of control right now.
As for making excuses for anyone, why should they need anyone to make excuses for them? I am just sobering you up. Young people are well, young. They do dumb things. Like goth kids or skin heads or other idiotic kids. They are kids. Its we as adults that need to keep a cool head and direct them in the right path, no matter what race.
You see Elvira, you saying how bad these children are will not fix the situation. You expect me to say, yes they are horrible, then what?? They are the youth. Every generation is horrible to the previous. What do you get out of that?
But you seeing them like other human beings who are reacting to their world, that will impact our society. They are supposed to struggle. They are supposed to be behind. That is what happens when you treat people the way AAs have been treated. They are responding the way humans respond under the same circumstances. You what has happened to AAs has never happened in the history of humanity. We get to learn how our species responds under such circumstances.
Standing there and Monday night quarterbacking is pointless. Its just childish and a waist of energy. It has no bearing on reality and we are not experts and being human. We are just experts at our OWN experiences. So pipe up.
What continues to confuse me is why I am not reading just how amazing it is that they ARE progressing.
You see their journey is not a movie or a TV show. You don't get to go to commercial than come back and everyone is successful and all of the problems are fixed. This is a journey and progress IS taking place. I go to church with thousands of AAs many of whom wouldn't even think of living in the Bronx where you live. That's my reality and THAT is also part of Black culture.
With their history in this land of opportunity, I say, hats off!!!
Yes they have a lot of growth still but folks its only been 40 yrs. They were kidnapped 300+ years ago coming from different cultures and languages across a continent that is 3x + the size of the US and you think in 40 years all should be well?
SHAME ON YOU!!!. They don't need excuses. Who do you think you are to think any one is asking YOU to excuse them?
As for your other comments about what you think I feel about race matters, Elvira you need to recall that you were off rambling while I was ignoring your posts. You don't know what I feel about race matters. You just into ridiculous conclusions about my posts and went to town. You kept talking to your self and answering yourself. I left you alone because you were HOT and wayyyyyyy off base. You don't know my views.
If you want to ask me specific questions I will answer you but your ramblings about how I feel will be met with silence because I just don't know how to respond to them..
Breath.
You were doing real well. Regain your dignity.
As I say to Ruvy, jokingly, Abraham must have been the biggest drama queen. Between you guys and Arabs geeeeeeez!! All that emotion and just taking things toooooooo far. Calm down would you!?
93 - Zedd
Nancy
Tell that to Elvira.
You are saying what I am saying.
94 - Zedd
Nancy
If you have time, read whats been going on between Elvira and myself. I think you must have just read her post to me then responded to me.
Read what I posted to Ruvy actually and tell me if it warranted that response.
What I was saying is that people are people. They somehow want me to say that these kids in the ghetto are especially evil and I wont. Ruvy was going on about how violent they were and I pointed out that he lives in the Middle East for goodness sakes..... I suppose that was just bad.
I was supposed to say that African Americans are bad and all of the other violence across the world is within a context but theirs is just part of their culture.
I wont because that is not true.
I'm also confused why they want me to say that. What purpose does it serve for them?
You seem to agree with me. People are just people and will find a way to conflict. Look at the characters on this site. If we were a country, we would be in turmoil.
Please go through the comments and tell me honestly what is wrong with what I stated.
95 - Elvira Black
I am in an extremely foul mood, and fed up with much of humanity in general right about now, so caveat emptor.
Nancy, I am equally surprised to find you so silent on the rantings of Heloise and Zedd. When it comes to topics like illegal immigration etc, you are usually quite no-holds-barred. But that's your business. Calling everyone on this thread nuts (which would have to include me) is a perhaps unintended provocation that I will do my best to ignore.
Considering that you are one of the least "PC" people I've encounterd on BC (unless you're not the same Nancy I think you are), I just don't know what to say.
PS--where exactly did you get the idea that Heloise and/or her ilk are cut from the same cloth as Condi Rice et al? I suspect you didn't read any of her later (numerous) comments. She started out ok, but quickly began a barrage of messages as she slowly built up to a hateful crescendo jam packed with hatred and lies--including some of the most blatant stereotyping I have ever seen on this site or off--and that's sayinig a lot.
Clavos, thank you. I am so disgusted that I feel like throwing up.
Zedd's continuing insistence that we make special dispensation and excuses for dysfunctional, even harmful or fatal, behavior rather than working positively and proactively for change makes me even angrier. If she had read the entire post, she would have seen that I was ready, willing and able to declare that AAs have made incredible strides despite horrible odds.
And of course the minute I say this I am a condescending white bitch. Again, there is no way around the fact that she considers me and my ilk personally responsible for what others did before I was born--or when I was but a tiny tot.
There are other groups who fought incredible odds as well. Blacks are not the only ones who have been enslaved and faced discrimination and even death at the hands of their oppressors. And I'm not just referring to the Jews here either.
Put a fork in me--I'm done with responding to fools and liars at least for right now. Maybe later I'll recharge. I've been meaning to respond to some very early commenters so maybe I'll do that next.
Meanwhile, do excuse me while I go and throw up.
96 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zedd,
"What are you so worked up about and why do I disgust you so much all of a sudden[?]"
You mean it bothers you that somebody (other than me) who is disgusted with your lies and distortions - and penchant for picking fights?
Let's start at the beginning. From comment #65:
"A woman (whom I cannot stand) uses words like 'elide' at Desicritics.org, not to mention 'essentialize.' The point is, she knows how to use them properly."
From comment #66 "Do you mean me? I'm Black"
Do you write at Desicritics, Zedd? Are you the Hindu lady I'm thinking of? Did I mean you? Or were you just looking for an excuse to pop off your mouth. I's say you were looking for the excuse to pop off you mouth.
Let's move on. From comment #89:
[quoting me] "'...sadness at seeing their children and grandchildren adopting a culture of hatred of success as a way of rebelling against the hated white man.'
I can guarantee that that didn't happen.
They may have been disheartened about the current generation but THAT was never said. You picked up what you wanted out of it. Or you just exaggerated to strengthen your post (a.k.a. lied)."
You were in the restaurant in 2000 when I heard this? You heard the conversation? You know what was said? You know my relationships with the pillars of the black neighborhood just south of I94 in St. Paul, the ones who fought to save their neighborhood from a freeway going through in the '60's, who flew down to Washington in 1965 to organize an anti-poverty agency during the War on Poverty programs of the Johnson administration? Uh huh... Tell me another one.
You don't know shit. That's for sure. But let's rub your arrogant nose in that fact. Moving, from comment #73:
"Actually I don't believe he [Robert] beat up a homeless man. His political idealism doesn't fit the beating up scenario. Either you are trying to add spice to your post or he was trying to tick you off knowing how easily convinced most Whites are that we do such things."
Robert came in late that day bragging to Antwon, one of the other kids, how he beat up a drunken white man on Lake Street after getting drunk himself. Only after that did I ask him about it, wanting to know why he was late. That was when he challenged me - for the last time, it turned out. My comments to him ended his challenges. He still hated white people, at least for the time that he was part of the United Way program. So much for what you know.
But he did grow up into a decent person. And he was honestly happy to see me at the Burger King that afternoon.
So we see a pattern of lying, distortion and picking fights - and then pretending to be above it all when called for the bullshit.
Take a good look at Nancy's comment #91. We know a hell of a lot more about black society than you realize or want to realize, Zedd, or than we generally let on.
Cut the crap. It really gets tiresome.
97 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zedd,
One last point. It is so nice to get the backup I got from Elvira. She is as sick of the general anti-Semitic tone these comments have taken as I am. Fortunately, I do not have to deal with this white hating contempt on a day in day out basis...
98 - Zedd
Nancy had not read that I was saying what she said. She jumped in in the middle of the conversation.
Ruvy you made a comment about Black people. I am Black. If I made a ridiculous comments about Jews, you would take it that i was talking about you because you are Jewish.
You are not disgusted by me. You like the opportunity to expel the daily drama out of your loins I'm sure to the joy and relief of those who reside in the same residence as you. Now wipe off the sweat, snap for make up and wardrobe and prepare for your next dramatic performance.
99 - Nancy
I DID read your commentaries, but concede I am probably confused as to who said what to whom. I think I've gotten you & Elvira & Heloise mixed up. I'll have to go back & re-read. There are several issues being argued back there. I'm only addressing the initial one, i.e. that some blacks/AAs aren't "black enough".
I don't like anybody beating on anybody, altho in very rare situations, I admit there are mitigating circumstances, like the woman who shot & killed her very young daughter's molester after he was able to get off on a legal technicality; or, say, a lynch mob were to go after Bush or Cheney or Rumsfield & string them up. (Sorry - a recurring fantasy of mine ;)
At the time the kid beat up the drunk, he (the kid) was as culpable as any Klansman in a hood: both of them consumed with some kind of rage, and projecting that rage onto an innocent 3rd party within their reach, that they can take it out on. In the case of the kid, fortunately, he was able at a later date to work through his rage & redirect his energy to making himself a success instead of spiralling down into further self-destructive violent behavior.
I do have a formal degree in Anthropology, altho it's in Hominid Evolution, not cultural Anth, but I did have a lot of cultural crammed down my throat while an undergrad, & I'll also mention that as an Anth student you also get to do a lot of general primatology as well, so you quickly come to realize that people - i.e. humans - are nothing more than a more socially complex & gifted ape, & we share all their baser instincts, including unreasoning rage, jealousy, greed, lust, aggression, & on & on. These traits are hard-wired into our systems, but the difference is, we know in the abstract that a certain kind of behavior is wrong, & we can try to control that urge, altho far too many don't, hence crime & war. Also note that behavioral aggression is mostly committed by males, of ALL colors & species, altho not exclusively. You want my real reaction, I'd say mostly it was a male problem. A girl would almost never have reacted that way, unless she were extremely aberrant & disturbed.
Personally (& I'm sure I'm going to be crucified over this by the guys) I have long ago concluded, all stats considered, that racism, along with other forms of violence, is part of the universal territoriality & natural sexual competition/aggression of all male creatures, from squids to men. Not that that EXCUSES (mainly) human males from indulging in it, or females, either, on the rare occasions they do so. As I said, that is supposedly what separates us from the rest of the critters: we know better & they don't.
However, it's certainly a trait NOT limited to any particular race, which is why I agree with you that there can't possibly be a color litmus test on Negritude or Honkeytude or any other 'tude, for that matter.
As for "race" itself, I don't believe in it, personally. All "race" is, is a labelling of the general characteristics of manifested phenotype (physical traits), which can (and do) run the spectrum from people who are blackest black to those who are whitest white & all shades in between - ALL of which is rendered inert IMO by the fact that we all originate from a common homonid ancestor from Africa, therefore we're ALL, all of us, technically African - & therefore "black". To claim, therefore, that some are not black enough is similar to claiming that some are not human enough. -- Hah? Wha-? Can't be done.
100 - Victor Lana
Purely and simply the "N" word is repugnant. It's usage signifies ignorance and, in 2007, indicates that the user is insensitive to all human beings (not just blacks). Derogatory words for all races can't be banned, but we should teach our children well regarding them.
101 - zingzing
ruvy said "We know a hell of a lot more about black society than you realize or want to realize, Zedd, or than we generally let on."
recently, i went to a restaurant in the international district here in seattle, it being chinese new year and all. truthfully, i think we ended up at a korean place, but as it was after hours, i didn't even look at the food menu, so i dunno.
there was kareoke going on that evening, and a black woman came up and sang a song. i looked around for her party (she was rather cute) and noticed that there was a rather large birthday party going on at the back of the room. probably around 30 african americans.
the birthday cake came out and it was time to sing. this is what surprised me... black people have a different version of "happy birthday!" and it's soooooo much better than the vanilla version. there was another table of african americans at the other end of the floor, and of course they got up and sang, seemingly fully aware of this version of the song. it probably wouldn't have taken me too long to learn the version of the song, but i was so shocked... how did i not know this? haven't i been to a black birthday party before? i guess it's been years.
really, it's a much better version. am i just imagining this, or are there two different versions of "happy birthday?"
i know plenty of black people. i've lived with them, dated them, been best friends with them. i thought i had a pretty good understanding of their culture.
but i was shocked to learn i didn't know "happy birthday."
102 - Elvira Black
Nancy:
"I DID read your commentaries,"
Who is this addressed to? I doubted that you'd read them, and commented to you thusly. But still you can't seem to even discern who I am--the author of this piece--as opposed to a couple of racist ignoramuses, so be it.
"but concede I am probably confused as to who said what to whom. I think I've gotten you & Elvira & Heloise mixed up.
You certainly have--I am Elvira, Zedd is Zedd. You seem to think that Zedd wrote my comment to you instead of me.
Nancy, perhaps I flatter myself, but I thought that surely I was distinguishable from the likes of Zedd and Heloise. I am a regular writer and commenter on this site, and certainly remember you.
Perhaps you didn't read my post, and haven't waded through all the comments (understandable)
" I'll have to go back & re-read. There are several issues being argued back there."
I brought up more than several in my article.
" I'm only addressing the initial one, i.e. that some blacks/AAs aren't "black enough".
And some, apparently, aren't smart enough to see that they are contributing to the cancerous problem of racism in America by their own vile bigotry.
While I'm at it--why is it that someone who may be one eighth black is always "black?" Why not acknowlege the (to my mind) positive aspects of different races producing multi-racial children?
That's it, Nancy. Goodbye and good luck to you too.
103 - Elvira Black
Nancy:
Yes, I too may be confused. Perhaps your comment was directed to Zedd. But not being able to tell us apart or even know that I am the author of the piece instead of some vicious racist heckler does give me considerable pause.
I'm very tired and very pissed off, so I'll quit for awhile now.
104 - Nancy
Oh yeah, I'm the same Nancy. No, I'm never politically correct, nor do I want to be, altho I hope not as obnoxiously as Arch or some of the other right-wing ranters. I don't object to illegals as hispanics or blacks or whites. I don't care if they're plaid, my objection is to the illegality of it. But I also object very much to the unfairness & length of time of the (legal)immigration procedure on people who would otherwise willingly apply to come in the 'right' way, i.e. legally. Comprende? IMO there is NO RACE (see above). It's an artificial construct. Culture, yes. Most of what people construe as Race they are actually confusing with culture. Persons of all races but the same culture get along fine; persons of the same race but different cultures fight like cats & dogs: for example, Semitics - Jews & Arabs. U's will band together against non-U's, the proles against the oligarchs; very seldom will Race actually make a difference between them. Humans being supremely social animals, our reactions are governed mainly by social norms - culture - rather than phenotypes - physical looks. HOWEVER, since all humans are basically the same, psychologically, culture too has common traits & our reactions are generally common to us all, hence it certainly is possible for whites to understand blacks, just as blacks have been well able to 'understand' whites & use this understanding for their own survival in slave times. No culture/race has a monopoly on some mystical ability to "understand" others: some people are naturally sensitive & intuitive to the nuances of others, & some couldn't pick up on a nuance if you hit them over the head with it. I've met blacks who don't understand blacks, & god knows I know plenty of whites who don't understand fellow whites, or asians who don't figure their fellow asians. This is because we're all HUMAN, & each (god help us) is an individual, regardless of the superficial physical differences of skin tone or hair or eye color.
Having said that, I will say also that IMO "persecuted" groups like to hug their victimhood to their bosoms in general. I've noticed on this thread that Elvira & Ruvy are supersensitive to implications of antisemitism in the comments of others, yet accuse Zedd & Heloise of being hypersensitive to racism in the same way. I find it ironic that Elvira says blacks must get over the past. Jews hug their wrongs to them the same way blacks do with slavery. They even make a holiday out of their mistreatment - Passover. A forever reminder & celebration of being a persecuted group, for heavens' sake, as Zedd would say. What if I, as a non-Jew, were to say Jews should 'get over it'? After all, they've been whining about Pharoh for 4,000 years now, yet nobody in this day & age has been personally enslaved by Pharoh or mistreated by Egyptians, nor have any of the current living people of Egypt been guilty of enslavement of Jews. Surely 4,000 years is enough time to move on? And this for an episode that more & more historical archeology indicates never actually took place at all. HOWEVER, she's absolutely right, IMO, that EVERYBODY should get over it, whatever 'it' is. People have suffered & been abused all over the world throughout all of time by one group or another. Japanese have persecuted the Ainu; Chinese have persecuted Tibetans; Anglo-Europeans have persecuted everybody at one time or another: they are truly non-descriminatory in their dealings with other people. As the song says, they hate everybody. Women-! Women have been persecuted by Men for as long as tales have been told. Now THERE is a downtrodden group, and we're STILL being persecuted, AS a group. So there: if you're black or Jewish & a woman, you can complain on TWO different persecuted fronts. If you're a black Jewish woman with Amerind blood, you've hit the jackpot: you can really claim the ultimate victimhood! And on and on and on.... Nu - where does it end? You tell me.
105 - Nancy
I think a rest away from the blog would be a good idee, Elvira. You've obviously got yer dander up. No, I haven't confused you (the author) with Zedd or Heloise; I have confused who was asserting what with various different issues & didn't want to address them all. I suppose I was mainly responding to Zedd somewhere back about 30 comments ago, then I tried responding to you, & then discussing some of Heloise's assertions. Well, I never claimed to be logical entirely. A spaghetti tangle of commentary, that's me.
Back to the actual subject: no, I don't think anyone could or should try to 'ban' the N word or any other bad word. Certainly not Officially, altho common peer pressure should certainly be used, as when we let kids know that certain bad behavior is frowned on & not tolerated. The problem is, how do we keep the Media & Entertainment industry, who have a stake in maintaining bad & scandalous behaviors, from exploiting it? And how to reach those who are convinced that anybody outside of their own tight cultural peergroup has their good interests at heart & they should follow their advice? Don't know about any of you (Elvira, Zedd, Heloise, Ruvy), but when I was a kid, whatever my parents (or any other Old Fart) said, I did the opposite, & kids these days, regardless of race, are upholding the grand old tradition, as they did 5,000 years ago & will 5,000 years from now. One final interesting (to me at least) primatological note: did you know that chimp & gorilla juveniles also 'rebel' against their elders?! I keep getting a mental image of a chimp JD leaning up against a tree a la James Dean....
106 - Zedd
Nancy
You are speaking my language. As I've said I did Sociology and Political Anthro in my under grads so I get you completely. Doing Socio of Business now. Would rather do Anthro. Its a passion but I need for my studies to translate into $$. Will probably do a PhD in some form of Anthro.
I agree totally with your assessments. Your perspective is broadened by your studies. Thanks for your post.
After some time, human behavior stops seeming so complex. It just blurs into one attempt by men to attain power so that we can think they are hot.
I could go on.....
107 - Zedd
Elvira
I don't know who you think I am but your comments don't reflect my views at all.
I am a critic of Black people as I am a critic of society. I have posted about the perpetual marchers, complainers and the spot stealers on TV. I also know that that is not Black culture.
I actively volunteer in the inner city and took off from working in Corporate American for two years to work in the inner city. I am soooo frustrated. I am annoyed with the challenges and just how far behind some of the inhabitants are. But I understand why and I know that a lecture wont fix it. I cant lecture because I did not experience any of what they have, for generations.
I wont agree with a fallacy. If you are wrong, you are wrong and I will tell you. The best that you can do is either take it as information and learned or blow me off.
I wont however accept you taking unwarranted jabs at African Americans especially when EVERY other group all over the world has erupted when being mistreated and these people did not. They are TRYING hard to assimilate and are doing it while maintaining their culture and being jabbed at the ENTIRE time.
You don't understand how difficult their journey has been and IS. You don't understand how they critique one another and push each other to move on despite.... You don't know the songs that they sing in church to inspire that message.
You just pop on here in your arrogance (whatever color you are) and spout comments as if you have an answer for something that has never been experienced and that WE HUMANS have no quick solution for because its never happened before.
You see don't keep installing dramatic comments to deter from the fact that you need to be ashamed for what YOU have said about these people. I never said you are saying it because of your race (whatever that is). I said shame on YOU. Not your skin YOU. YOUR HUMANITY. Don't try to invite others to your defense by bringing up your Whiteness. Its clear from my comments that I did not attack your Whiteness.
If you are having a bad day. I am truly sorry. Perhaps you will get a chance to review this thread and see how you jumped into a bizarre conclusion.
There is violence, crime, ignorance, hatred all over the world. Don't dare allow your imagination to place blame on AAs solely especially knowing where they come from. What was supposed to happen???
Some of you don't' realise that the increase in the rates of young unemployed and incarcerated Black males is directly correlated to the increases in the numbers of illegal immigration. Who do you think was doing all of those jobs all along? Yet we stand back and tisk tisk. Many don't realise that when Regan killed the job programs for youth which actually help to maintain parks in those same communities and give skills to those kids in the 80's is when gang violence and the crack epidemic exploded in the Black community. But you get to tisk tisk and attribute the chaos to culture.
African Americans ARE trying to move on. But when people don't want to acknowledge why they are where they are they HAVE to explain and then people say they are holding on to the past. It's insane and cruel.
108 - Zedd
Zing
I think you must be talking about the Stevie Wonder song. Its sung in folly. We sing the standard song too.
109 - zingzing
what do you mean, "sung in folly?"
110 - zingzing
ah-ha. zedd, it is the stevie wonder song. (it actually sounds horrible when he sings it... at least the backing track...)
still, much better than "happy birthday," which usually sounds like a chorus of zombies.
111 - Zedd
In folly meaning when we are just jovial and everyone is happy and goofing around.
112 - Nancy
Zedd, I agree completely. I have often wondered/marvelled at the patience & forebearance of most black people & Jews in the face of past injustices. I've seldom met with any individual holding the past against me personally (ref: me as a white, that is), altho I entirely understand when they have. I would have gone postal, moi.
It's been my experience, however, that if you like people in general & show it, most of them respond generously. I remember a hulking rasta-braided NY-er on the subway, who - when I started singing the praises of NYC & NY-ers as wonderful people, beamed at me & when he found out I was headed for the Met Museum, got off with me & personally escorted me to the front door, after showing me exactly where I wanted to catch the bus back towards Uptown. The whole 6 weeks I was there, I never heard a cross word or encountered rudeness from ANY NY-er. They were gorgeous people one & all, black & white & all colors in between, & they just LOVED hearing someone praise NYC. I made more friendly acquaintances that way.
113 - Nancy
Ah, no wonder we think alike, sorta. LOL - in my narrow field of Anth, I liked the really old, old ones; anyone newer than Neanderthal I consider noveau. Of course I loved the Flores Hobbit discoveries; I'll bet you do, too. Mostly I hung out with Australopithecines, Homo Habilis, that crowd.
114 - Zedd
Nancy
I focused on Political Anthro. It helped me connect the dots. The correlation between what societies do regardless of time or race are basically the same. The purpose of the rituals within the culture are often established to prove the authenticity and right for the rulers to hold the positions that they do.
Unfortunately some of the knowledge that one gains in the social sciences places one in the outside looking in position. Where you get the WHY but the people around you are in a tizzy over basically nothing. It also makes one rather skeptical of institutions and position.
But also, I was like that from early childhood. Always wanting answers. I suppose I am not this blog for the same reasons. Just curious.
115 - Clavos
Zedd writes:
Some of you don't' realise that the increase in the rates of young unemployed and incarcerated Black males is directly correlated to the increases in the numbers of illegal immigration.Who do you think was doing all of those jobs all along? ...Many don't realise that when Regan killed the job programs for youth which actually help to maintain parks in those same communities and give skills to those kids in the 80's is when gang violence and the crack epidemic exploded in the Black community.
Got any links for data to back those claims up??
116 - Zedd
Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks
by George J. Borjas, Jeffrey Grogger, Gordon H. Hanson
President Reagan's Conservative Fiscal Policy: Unemployment among African Americans (Paperback)
by Chiazam Ugo Okoye (Author)
Youth Unemployment, Underemployment. A Continuing Delima
by Ray Marshall
For a start.
117 - Elvira Black
Christopher and Nancy:
After writing an extremely long comment to Nancy, and having tried twice to post it without success, I have saved it to Microsoft word for the time being. Please advise if I should break it up into smaller "bites" and try again.
Zedd:
When Clavos says links he means just that--something the reader can click on and access. Links do not equal bibliographies. As this is an online medium, providing active live links to back up one's claims is the norm. Posting the titles of books is virtually useless to the BC reader here, who can hardly be expected to pick up and make a trip to the local library to read these tomes right now.
118 - Elvira Black
One more general observation:
Though it is not my "specialty," per se, I have written a few posts for the politics section in the past which have sometimes garnered hundreds of comments. I generally relish taking on all comers and enjoy even the most heated debate.
I often wondered why some BC writers would choose to ignore their commenters or go so far as to say they dont even read them because to do so would be an excercise in repetitive, nonending futility. They choose to let the article stand on its own rather than be sucked into pointless, unending exchanges with idiotic hecklers.
The comments thread here started out well. I never shy away from debate and never hide from criticism or verbal attacks. However, even I am getting burnt out by the endless need to repeat myself like a broken record.
I am equally dismayed by the fact that few save for Ruvy and Clavos seem to "get it." Not only have Ruvy and I battled the hate-mongers who appeared on this thread like a festering, malignant growth, but virtually no one save for Clavos has chimed in to support us.
As I say, I can understand that someone coming upon this thread might not read all the comments, but it might be nice if they read the post itself. I am weary and disgusted with having to repeat myself over and over again and bring up points made at some length a day or two ago.
There comes a time when one is only beating a dead horse on threads like these. I will still attempt to publish my long comment to Nancy, but am not at all confident she will even bother to read it. If memory serves, she rarely responds to my comments directly, but takes great pains to respond to Zedd's. Again, this puzzles me greatly, since I've always felt that Nancy and I were so much on the same page we could almost be virtual twins.
I further suspect that many are reading without commenting, and that those who chime in while studiously avoiding confronting Zedd and her ilk are understandably loathe to put themselves in her line of fire. But again, it disappoints me greatly to see how people such as Zedd and Heloise can highjack threads with impunity. I am the biggest free speech zealot you're ever likely to find, but as with the right to vote some do not care to exercise their rights as freely as they are entitled to--particularly if they fear appearing non-PC in the process.
Time to move on to something else--perhaps a return to less controversial essays is in order. I can live without comments like many of those shown here very nicely.
119 - Clavos
A list of books doesn't prove anything, Zedd.
As Elvira points out, the norm in an online forum like BC is links to information, writings or data that back up the point(s) you're presenting.
Virtually all the writers provide them to support their arguments, and most of the serious commenters do as well.
Even a cut-and-paste of data tables (in this case) would suffice. The burden of proving your case is on you. If you don't (or can't) back up what you present, it's not believable.
It's as simple as that.
120 - Zedd
Elvira
Tone down on the venom. Especially when its not warranted.
Are you bi-polar? If so I am so sorry but it's a bit unnerving.
Clavos
Those are MY sources. You know how to google like everyone else. Do the research. You weren't expecting for me to go on a search for you when I already had the sources did you?
121 - STM
Nancy asked: "STM - what is a "Pom"? I thought it was just a cute joking name for Englishmen, kind of like how you all call us "Yanks"? I never realized it was derogatory!"
Nancy: Chris has it pretty much covered and the Prisoner of His/Her Majesty argument doesn't really hold water any longer. It is thought, as theb story says, to relate purely to the reddening of the skin after being subjected to the heat/sun of the unforgiving Australian climate.
It's generally, like Yank, NOT a derogatory term - rather, it's really a genuine term of endearment (I think we love to hate Brits and Americans, which is a lot different to actually hating).
And as always in Australia, things are a bit topsy-turvey. If no-one was calling you names, it would mean they didn't like you. I love to dine out on the story of one of my rugby mates, who is a first-generation Chinese-Australian. His Dad came here in the fifties, and the watershed moment in his new life was when the mainly anglo/celtic-Aussies he was working with began to invite him out for a beer after work on Fridays - and gave him a nickname.
They called him "Chongo" - as in ching chong. Absolutely politically incorrect, and anywhere else it would certainly have been an insult. Not here, though. For him, it was a proud moment, since anyone without a nickname just wasn't part of the crew.
When I first met him years ago, I called him Mr Lee. Grinning, he stuck out his hand, and in a broad Australian accent said: "Never mind the bloody Mr Lee bullsh.t, son ... call me Chongo, every other bastard does."
As for Pom and Yank, I guess it all comes down to how you say it, what profanities you team it with (bastard is not necessarily a derogatory term here), and what the intent is. That can sometimes be very confusing for new arrivals, until they work out the nuances.
The P word really ain't a racist slur.
122 - Clavos
Zedd sez:
Those are MY sources. You know how to google like everyone else. Do the research. You weren't expecting for me to go on a search for you when I already had the sources did you?
Of course I was, it's YOUR argument.
The responsibility to do the research lies with the writer, not the readers. If you want us to believe what you're saying YOU have to prove it.
Without supporting data, it's just opinion, and a suspicious one at that.
And I don't believe it.
123 - sr
Elvira, you just hit another home run. Lady of Song you are good. BG marry this women.
124 - Zedd
Clavos
I did provide you my sources. You can either look this data up or not its up to you. There is no rule which says all knowledge or info that is discussed has to exist on a web page. I gave you sources for the information that I am speaking of.
You see the point of discussing on these pages is not to argue with you or anyone else. The point for me is to learn or exchange ideas.
If you don't choose to learn something that you obviously don't know, and would rather pretend to be versed at presenting a lucid argument, that is your choice. If your reason to be online is to just play at dialogue, that is great to.
While I may express humor, I am curious and really want to engage. I don't find it entertaining or challenging to go round with you or Elvira over minutia.
125 - Ray Ellis
Enough already! We now know that Zedd and the retreating Heloise are the sum of all Black experience in the history of the Known Universe because-- well, they said so.
We also know that Elvira has no right to address such issues because not only is she white, but she's also Jewish, and she has the audacity to present a viewpoint borne more of facts and personal experience than baseless rhetoric.
Heloise, you live in Dallas, as do I. You can't seriously believe that all is good in the hood. Zedd, cut the pseudo-intellectual nonsense, and face reality. You are contributing nothing to further Black culture, Talking the talk is easy,. Walking the walk is quite another matter.
Elvira, I thank you for a thoughtful piece. Too bad its message was lost in the sputum that followed.