In honor of Black History Month, some black leaders have proposed legislation to ban the "N" word. Are they right?
On February 1, the first day of Black history Month was ushered in with a bit of local media brouhaha here in New York when Queens Councilman Leroy Comrie, hip-hop artist Kurtis Blow Walker, and other community leaders headed a press conference calling for a symbolic, non-binding resolution urging New Yorkers to stop using the "n" word. Though no one could possibly imagine this could be made into a real law (just for starters, the First Amendment implications would be huge) it did give people of all races ample food for thought.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Heloise
correction: It should be: "well-meaning article."
27 - Heloise
Zedd, don't you think that the old black poetry of people like Don Lee went a long way to creating rap music? I think that the avant garde on this one was people who did the poetry back in the 60s and 70s and not the other way around.
28 - Heloise
Elvira: I often joke with my non-Jewish friends about the culture shock of living with a non-Jew. I praise my boyfriend’s uber-Goyishness, and the fact that he can repair things and is not afraid to get his hands dirty, while I, the coddled Jewish princess, must hire movers, get my air conditioning professionally installed and my walls painted by experts rather than friends. (The old joke applies well here. Question: what do Jewish wives make for dinner? Answer: reservations.)
This is something that whites of middle class distinction and blacks also of middle class distinction do quite often. I just visited my aunt. She rebuilt her entire condo, with her own hands, owns the whole building and others in SOuth Shore. By her damn self.
She even built her couch. BTW it was one of the most beautiful buildings and condo places I've ever seen. Blacks are so damn resourceful that no one even comes close to them.
This article shows me that you really don't know a damn thing about black people and their wealthy lives. Blacks and whites really have a lot in common. I am redoing my bathroom. I have hired a contractor though.
Heloise
29 - Elvira Black
Nancy:
You wrote:
But I DO know him, so I know he's not at all what his wistful 'image' presents, & he's far more likely to help an old lady carry her groceries than he would be to even consider doing anything actually RUDE, let alone robbing her. A boy scout & softie at heart.
I have had similar experiences in my boyfriend BG's Bronx 'hood (now soon to be my own as well). The area is predominantly Hispanic and black, but I have had virtually NO problems here at all. By contrast, In the 70s and 80s the city and subways in NYC were a horrorshow, and crime and incivility were tolerated--or rather, there was nothing much that "could" be done about it. Some of you may remember the saga of Bernie Goetz, who after being intimidated (and I believe mugged as well) many times finally came out of his bag and attacked his youthful would-be attackers with, if memory serves, a gun at point-blank range.
Also during the same period were the "wildings" in Central Park, and the infamous incident of the Central Park jogger who was sexually assaulted, beaten to a pulp, and left for dead.
The really ironic thing about this particular wilding was that the kids allegedly involved were eventually acquitted (or their convictions overturned) after someone else confessed to the crime. They were apparently intimidated by the cops into false confessions after many hours of relentless interrogation.
During the "Wild West" that was the East Village of Manhattan during the '70s, my now boyfriend was mugged at knifepoint twice near his tenement apartment, where young white hippies had joined the urban poor who resided there thanks to the still-dirt cheap rents.
During one of these incidents, two hispanic crack addicts threatened him with a knife as well as a nail-filled board held against his face. Fortunately, a cop car was cruising by and caught them red-handed.
He testified, and the mothers of the kids tried to take him aside and beg him for mercy, saying their boys were "sick." They got a year or two for assault, and he saw them back on the same streets shortly after that.
But with the advent of Mayor Giuliani and his amazing police commissioner(s), all this changed starting sometime in the '90s when the city instituted the "broken windows" approach to crime. In essence, the thought was that if more "minor" crimes are allowed to proliferate with impunity, a neighborhood will give up hope, and larger crimes will certainly continue to flourish as well.
In a few years' time, graffiti was virtually eliminated from the subways; the window washers who once stood vigil on the Bowery intimidating drivers into paying them for wiping down their cars were driven away; the subway cars full of intimidating youth playing their ghetto blasters at volume ten grew quiet (folks now opt for Walkmen or I-pods); and residents and subway riders could breathe a collective sigh of relief, no longer fearing that they were taking their very lives in their hands when venturing onto the streets or underground.
Those who refused to comply--by, say, drinking on the subway, playing loud music, jumping turnstiles, or otherwise creating a ruckus--were stopped by the cops, who would check their ID and doubtless also check for outstanding warrants.
Soon enough, a beautiful thing happened. This brand of erstwhile uncivilized behavior was simply no longer expected or tolerated.
The result? The subway ride both within Manhattan and heading "uptown" (which means everything from 125 Street in Harlem upt through the Bronx) is now a quiet, peaceful, and even "pleasant" experience.
Nevertheless, when I journey from Manhattan to the Bronx, even during rush hour, I know that I will likely be able to get a seat on or before 125th Street. Most of the whites clear out by 86th, unless they are heading for a Yankee Game at 161st Street in the South Bronx.
But despite the fact that I am a minority on the subways and on the streets of the Bronx, I feel no anxiety whatsoever. When young people realize that there are rules that must be complied with, the result is that civilized and courteous behavior become the norm.
I went through a period not long ago where I had back problems and standing on the subway or even walking half a block was problematic. Countless times young black or Hispanic guys offered me their seat; or black and Hispanic women in particular would come over when I stopped on the street to rest to see if I was ok. The only "disturbances" on the subways were the occasional beggar or street musicians and entertainers, some of whom are quite good.
But in point of fact, many local kids still dress "ghetto," even though anyone who spends any period of time around them knows that it is just the style. Teens have always adopted modes of dress that have repelled their elders, but as you said, underneath the facade most are sweet and courteous. And the peer pressure to be mischeveous can also be quelled, though of course there are still some gangs and violence amongst teens, especially in the often overcrowded inner city public schools. Hence the hope that a stigma can be attached to the "n" word of sufficient import to curtail its use.
But I'll even take it a step further and say that when I hit 125th Street on my voyage to the Bronx, I sometimes feel even more comfortable. Manhattan is an overcrowded zoo, and my contempt for the sometimes rude and thoughtless whites chattering into their cell phones, oblvious to everything and everyone around them, and the air of entitlement they wear around themselves like a mink stole knows no bounds. Granted, they're not in the majority, but my point is that because so many whites still seem squeamish about moving to any area that still has a substantial proportion of people of color means that, for one thing, the Bronx is still the best kept secret in all the five boroughs.
I am set to purchase a beautiful coop at a quarter of the price we're selling our Manhattan place for. The cost of living is much cheaper here because most folks are poor/working class, and merchants pay lower rents and can "pass the savings on," as the saying goes. And again, the only occasional annoyance is someone asking for a quarter, which happens in Manhattan as well.
Jeez, looks like I just wrote another article here! But I found your comments as cogent as always, Nancy, and just wanted to give your feedback the thoughtful response it deserved.
30 - Elvira Black
Zedd, Heloise, et. al.:
I will respond to all your great comments asap--the last one took the wind out of me (lol)!
31 - Elvira Black
Heloise:
Many thanks for your comments. I'll address them now point by point, but will go back and respond to other prior commenters later. You've given me a lot to chew on here.
You're Jewish right?
Um yes...as I say in the piece...
I know Jews have some choice words that they call each other. Don't know any offhand, but mostly they refer to their being money crazy or super cheap.
Heloise, did you read this article in its entirety?
And though I can't document it, I tend to think that my self-deprecating attitude is not all that common amongst my People--though Woody Allen does it wonderully, as do many Jewish humorists. Come to think of it, most comedians play on stereotypes in an attempt to push the envelope and bring to light some of the preconceptions we all internalize about different ethic groups.
In Chicago we got polish sausage from "Jew Town." And everybody called it Jew town. I don't know if that's a bad term or not.
Of course it is...esp if you're not a Jew, though I've done the same with Chinese and other groups. Once again, see my article above.
Anyway my cousins came up with a novel way of saying the n-word. They would say it backwards: reggin.
I like! Very ingenious (lol).
Glad I don't live in Jesse's "Hymie Town."
Why not? Because there's too many Jews here?
Remember that? He took a lot of heat for saying that. I had never heard that term used, or should I say often used until he said it. But remember Jews (who seem to always be publically saying something offensive about blacks and nonwhites)
Pardon? Could you give examples of this, please???
and other groups have taken a lot of heat for saying stuff. Hell, what I am talking about so the hell have I. I hate PC.
I think we all have, especially in the privacy of our own homes and amongst trusted friends.
Elvira why do you adore Charles Rangel? Because he doesn't look black? Hmmm.
No, because I happen to like what he stands for, and he's been a fixture in public office here in New York for many a year.
He looks just like my Creole grandfather though.
Actually, he sounds like he could be one of my Jewish uncles--or at the very least, a bona fide, born and bred "New Yawkah," as I am. Another reason I do adore the man.
I guess that's why I have a problem when Jewish people hawk their "discrimination."
Not discrimination, Heloise--at least not any more. What irks us is anti-Semitism, plain and simple--a phenomenon that has plagued the Jews since time immemorial, and still does (take Islamic fundamentalists, for example).
The proponderance of lawyers, judges, teachers and other groups are mostly Jewish, by percentage mind you
Quite a few are, but since Jews are a minority in this country, I'm not sure I would assume that they make up the majority of these professions. P.S.--you forgot bankers, didn't you?
There are historical/cultural reasons for the Jews' seeming adroitness as far as finance is concerned as well. Firstly, in predominantly Christian countries where "usury" was not permitted by Christians and other Christian professions were often closed to Jews, in order to make a living they had little choice but to take up these designated roles.
Another factor is a love and reverence of education which is hard-wired into their culture. Thus their high rate of professional success. There is nothing wrong with being successful, as long as you don't step on others in the process.
Elvira shame on you! I thought your were trying to write something positive here? This is pure-D bullshit.
The man who started Ebony and Jet, he just died, lived down the street from me for a while in Chatham. I lived next door to the Lusters who started another hair care company, as a family. Johnson's mom pawned her furniture and gave him the money to start his company. I could go on.
You make a valid point--however, I still think that the percentage of black entrepreneurs, though growing, still lags significantly behind their white and other ethnic counterparts. Unpleasant though it may be to admit, there is still poverty, discrimination, lack of decent education, lack of two-parent homes (in many cases, and of course this applies to all races in America at this point). amongst certain ethnic groups in this country. Some of the reasons, once again, are historic, as I take pains to explain in my article above.
NOTE: For those who read this article, not written by a black woman,
And yet you purport to know all about Jews...
please note that she does not speak for black businessmen, including my son, who have their own businesses and pool their resources and money. I really take issue with her statement. That is pidgeon-holing at its best. Congratulations Elvira,
As stated before, of course this does not apply to all. If it did, how would a black man manage to have an excellent shot at the presidency?
another Jewish person putting their foot in their mouth when it comes to "SPEAKING" for blacks. Don't do it.
Why Jewish? Why not just white or non-black?
Jewish folks were among the first to fight side by side with blacks during the civil rights movement. You may remember the students who were killed in Missisipi during the civil rights demonstrations there? At least two, as I recall, were Jewish.
Jews have a long tradition of doing "mitzvahs" (aka good deeds) for others of all races--in large part, perhaps, because they know all too well what it is like to be marginalized and despised. This may also explain the preponderance of Jews in the helping professions--social work, teaching, defense/legal aid attorneys, and so on.
Zedd, don't you think that the old black poetry of people like Don Lee went a long way to creating rap music? I think that the avant garde on this one was people who did the poetry back in the 60s and 70s and not the other way around.
Not only that, Heloise, but our country is forever indebted to the many African American musicians who brought jazz--an indigenous musical form--to us. Not to mention rock and roll, etc etc--which was whitewashed when artists like Pat Boone ( and to a less extreme degree, Elvis and the Beatles) did their sometimes inferior, yet commercially viable, renditions of same.
And then there's modern art--Picasso's big abstract/cubist breakthrough was inspired in large part by African artistic prototypes.
This article shows me that you really don't know a damn thing about black people and their wealthy lives. Blacks and whites really have a lot in common. I am redoing my bathroom. I have hired a contractor though.
Again, Heloise, this comment seems to indicate a rather less than close reading of my article above. My point was the cultural contrast between, specifically, a New York Jewish baby boomer, versus an Oklahoma born Catholic. So the fact that you and your family are resourceful--and also not Jewish--reinforces my point all the more, don't you think?
In any case, though we may not see eye to eye, on all matters, I value your comments. I think this is one of the ways prejudices and stereotypes get banished, sooner or later.
32 - Elvira Black
Christopher:
If you happen to see the comment above in your travels;
I was trying to do a "Dave Nalle" and put Heloise's comments in ital, and leave mine in roman. Although I know I coded it thusly, it came out all ital--and I half suspect that this and all other comments will as well til you come to the rescue....
Guess that's why it says "Please preview your comment!" (in bold ital, no less) right below....and now, of course, going into preview as insructed, I see that fortunately this comment will be in roman. Can you say "duh?" TIA, Elvira
33 - Elvira Black
Oops, spoke too soon. Either my eyes deceive me, or my comment above, though it seemed roman in preview, has come out as ital also, as will any future ones til you intervene. Help, C!
34 - daryl d
I think it is far more difficult to grow up Jewish than anything else. In pop culture, being black is now "cool" while being Jewish is frowned upon (behind the scenes). I'm very impressed with how Jewish people, on the whole, have excelled so much. EVERY Jewish person I grew up with is very successful. They set the standards for other minorities. TAKE THAT, MEL GIBSON!
35 - Lisa McKay
Elvira, you just forgot to close the very first italics tag. All better now!
36 - Zedd
Media #23
We are social beings and it matters how other feel about you. Expressing anything else is immature.
However, it is not how individuals feel about AAs that matters really, it is peoples actions towards AAs that make the difference. You see if you are a racist and hold a position where you hire people, it matters. That is THE issue. Being liked by everyone is not the goal, while it would be nice but its not relevant.
Racism is cruel. I don't think that we as a society would survive if we said cruelty is not illegal so lets just ignore it. We teach our children to be kind. We out people who are cruel. We shun them and chide them. Racist need to be shunned, outed and chided.
37 - moonraven
Why is the gusnao clavos expecting ME, an EX-patriate in the truest sense of the word--to offer solutions for the US?
My solution has been to let you jokers stew in your own juice (or in the words of the distant Nixon administration--let you twist in the wind....)
38 - Elvira Black
OK...
Zedd, I'm so glad you took the time to leave such thoughtful comments here. I know we've clashed a bit in the past, but I really respect your opinions and value your well-thought out and intelligent viewpoints. I agree with all you've said here.
Clavos and Moonraven: I'm equally thrilled to see you visiting my post.
Moonraven: though I'm pleasantly surprised--one might even say honored--to see your comments here, I can't help but wonder why it is so important for you to pursue this personal vendetta with Clavos here. And yes, you were responding to his inquiry to you, I'll admit that.
However, what I would really value would be your views on racism in Latin America. I'm sure it exists to some extent, or has in the past and still has an effect today. As I mentioned in my first comment, I am uneasy living here since 9/11, and thorougly agree that Bush is an embarassment and disaster to us all. At long last the majority of Americans are waking up to this fact, and we have a new congress to challenge his insanity.
I don't see myself going to the countries you frequent, except perhaps to visit. But I do want to see more of the world for sure. I love the US and New York with all my heart, but I want to do some major travelling before I go, and maybe even become an ex-pat. If you have any thoughts or advice on that, I'd value your feedback.
Lisa, thanks so much for restoring the roman fonts.
Daryl:
I wouldn't say it's difficult to be a Jew in America at least--though I could be biased since I do live in "Jew York City." One key to their success is that Jews have a great love of learning, based in part on their religious tradition. Orthodox Jews pray twice a day, and portions of the Torah are read. When the last portion has been completed, they celebrate and start all over again every year (Ruvy, if you're reading, correct me if I'm wrong). To them, the Torah is a living, breathing thing--their connection to G-d, their guide to living well and doing unto others etc., and their connection to their people and their traditions.
Thus, learning and education are absolutely crucial in Jewish life, even if one is not observant. Everyone on my mother's side of the family--children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, cousins, et al--have been hugely successful personally and professionally. No divorces, and all are teachers, CPA's, lawyers, professors, etc. All my cousin's kids were at the top of their class. My cousin's grandkids are tended to with great care and given every educational and social advantage from day one.
Though I've never had children and never intended to, from my point of view this is how it should be.
By contrast, my b/f's Catholic family were immersed in the military traditon and all but one son (who is practically legally blind) did their bit in the service. But no one was told they could amount to something great despite their talents, and none were encouraged to get a scholarship and apply for college. One brother did go on to get a BA and MBA on the GI bill, and his earning power is at least twice that of his other brothers as a result, plus he loves his job and has lots of room for further advancement.
Though they are all terrific people, it's a little sad to see that their considerable talents could have been nurtured more fully. BG's mom insisted that they all take music lessons, and encouraged any artistic abilities they had, but like many of their generation BG's parents just couldn't conceive of anyone making a decent living as an artist or musician. To them any honest work was admirable, whether one became a garbageman, dog catcher, janitor, day laborer, or what have you (BG has done all of this and more, save for "dogcatcher"--but he has helped his younger brother, who has worked for Animal Control in Lousiana for 20 plus years, on many occasions).
As a result, the self esteem level of most of the brothers leaves something to be desired. Again, a shame indeed. I believe that education is the key to success in our culture, and anyone who can possibly get a college degree--whether through a community college, scholarship, or employer plan--should do so if at all possible. BG's family are all intelligent, wonderful people, and I never look down on anyone based on their level of education. But it's just one of those things that gives one an added advantage in life. This, of course, applies to all groups of all colors--black, white, Asian, et al. Thanks for the great comment!
As I said, my intention is to respond to all comments, and I'll answer the rest soon. I figure if you're thoughtful enough to read and comment, you each deserve an individual response.
39 - Mark Edward Manning
Fine, let's ban the "n" word. Who needs freedom of speech? But, if we ban the "n" word, we need to ban every other offensive racial or ethnic slur too, such as "honky," "chinky" or "Polack."
Either we have a blanket ban on racist words or none at all, because there should not be special treatment for one select group of people.
40 - Clavos
A government enacted ban on ANY words in this country would be a violation of the First Amendment.
41 - STM
What's the N word? ... knob, knockers, nasty, knickers, nuclear, knuckle head? ... come on. I want to know what it actually is.
42 - Heloise
Elvira: Pardon? Could you give examples of this, please???
George Allen and the macaca comment. Then Biden and his "clean" comment, and the comments that Zollar made after Tiger won his first green coat, the one about ordering fried chicken. THere are too many to name, these got in the big press.
Heloise
43 - Heloise
I did read your article. THat's just the way I write, sort of thinking aloud. Sorry if it sounds like I did not read it.
Heloise
44 - Heloise
I said majority by PERCENTAGES. There is a difference. Yes, I think jews are 13% or so of the general pop. But they make up something like 87% of the lawyers. I have to find those figures, but it was a huge number. I forgot bankers and college profs, and MOST Of all they DO own the media. They own hollywood.
And speaking of pooling. SOme friends and I got together and pooled our money to buy a radio franchise. It was lottery or something. We did not win, and lost thousands of dollars in the process. But we had to try.
I read Paul Johnson's "History of the Jew" like three times. It was a great book. I know all about your history. Probably more than most Jews and this gets me in trouble. I can quote chapter and verse from many books that most people have never heard of.
It was Jewish filmmakers who really helped the WASP solidify Jim Crow in this country. I will never forgive Jews for doing that.
A Jewish astrologer helped Hitler, a Jewish man coached him in the occult. And a Jewish voice coach helped him with the voice and mannerisms hold millions in cult-like sway. Then there was the propaganda campaign. Jews are the masters of this and Hitler learned from them, period. If anyone says that Jews, like Africans helped with slave trade, were not complicit in the Holocaust then they have their heads stuck in the sand. This does not mean that the Germans did not have a role, of course they did. But it seems that Hitler could not have fulfilled his destiny without the occult (which he loved from a former life) and the Catholic Church sanction.
Heloise
45 - Elvira Black
Heloise:
Are Biden, Allen, and Zolar all Jewish? And no, you can't tell just from their names. I can look it up but thought I'd ask.
OK, kind of figured that. Seemed like new things occurred to you after you finished reading it, which is cool.
And just for the record: no, I don't think the "N" word should be banned and neither did the legislators et al in question. It was strictly a non-binding thing--kind of like the Dems' congressional on-binding resolutioin against further escalation in Iraq.
46 - Heloise
Elvira as an anthropologist I have studied names, faces and other identifiers to practically tell a person what city and country they came from with just a look. So, yes I can tell, yes others can tell. This is why there is now so much discrimination when blacks name their kids stuff like "Shanana" or "Sheldawn" that must be pronounced a certain way. Some of the names are really cute, but others are patently black.
There is a whole science about names, name recognition, letters, in lieu of astrology. What's in a name? A whole lot.
Heloise
47 - Heloise
Mark, well said. But I think Elvira has made it clear that it was rhetorical. And you raise a good point: why not ban other racial stereotypes and bad words that put down a group of people. That's what we are talking about.
PC was invented by Jewish intellectuals. I think they invented it so that they could then hide behind it. And as soon as anybody even utters the word "jew" oh boy, you are anti-semetic automatically.
This is why the right wingers are fighting it pretty strongly too.
Heloise
48 - Clavos
The implicit and overt antisemitism being expressed on this thread is making my skin crawl.
And I'm not Jewish.
Obviously, racism can come from anywhere...
49 - Elvira Black
Heloise:
I said majority by PERCENTAGES. There is a difference. Yes, I think jews are 13% or so of the general pop. But they make up something like 87% of the lawyers.
Yes, we are agreed on that in part. A sizeable percentage of Jews may be lawyers, but think of this logically. Do you REALLY believe that 87 PERCENT of all lawyers in the US are Jews if they only make up 13 percent of the general population?
I have to find those figures, but it was a huge number.
Yes, you would have to find those figures--and cite and link your sources, too. Otherwise it's just bigoted hearsay based on a biased, self-serving agenda.
I forgot bankers and college profs,
Yep, glad I could help out there. Again, you really think that most college profs in the US are Jewish? And I explained the banking connection. But again: plenty of rich bankers, etc. are not Jewish.
and MOST Of all they DO own the media. They own hollywood.
Could you, like, make more of an uniformed, blanket, unscientific statement? Yes, Jews are a big presence, but hardly the only one. Mel Gibson? Brangelina? TomKat? Scorsese? Coppola? Clint Eastwood? DeNiro, Pacino? D. W. Griffith? (don't think he was Jewish). Bogie, Cagney, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, Lawrence Olivier? Spike Lee, Oliver Stone, Ang Lee, Meryl Streep, the Fondas, Jack Nicholson, Gordon Parks, Harry Belafonte, Sidney Poitier, Lawrence Fishburne, and a whole nother slew of great black actors, screenwriters, producers, directors, etc etc etc?
Yes, Speilberg is a huge presence, but does it follow that he owns Hollywood? Just because he's a Jew, does that mean he's king of all media (no, wait, that's Howard Stern--a Jew or half-Jew. Michael Jackson is King of Pop, and Elvis was just the King, period).
Yes, many Jewish producers were major players in the "old Hollywood." But this is the 21st century. And again, do you think that a small minority really runs the whole industry by themselves? Where is your proof, and how do you explain how it flies in the face of all reason, logic, and common sense--not to mention cold hard evidence?
This is what I'm talking about...plus which, I tried to explain why Jews are well-represented in these professions. Not for some nefarious desire for world domination, but for the reasons cited--most of them positive.
I read Paul Johnson's "History of the Jew" like three times. It was a great book. I know all about your history. Probably more than most Jews and this gets me in trouble. I can quote chapter and verse from many books that most people have never heard of.
I've never heard of it, and have no idea of its validity. Is the guy a Jew hater with an agenda? Care to provide some links? That's how we do things here at BC if we want to be seen as credible rather than hopelessly biased, ignorant, or even downright wacko. And yes, it takes some extra effort and research, but that's why we take commenters and writers who produce these links much more seriously than those who produce blanket statements to "support" their questionable "facts."
Reading a piece of self-serving propaganda three times does not mean you know more than Jews do about thier own heritage. How presumptuous--even if the book were valid, no one book can tell you all you need to know about ANYTHING.
It was Jewish filmmakers who really helped the WASP solidify Jim Crow in this country. I will never forgive Jews for doing that.
Where oh where do you get these notions? Credible links, please...and even if this were so, how do all Jews bear the blame for this?
A Jewish astrologer helped Hitler, a Jewish man coached him in the occult. And a Jewish voice coach helped him with the voice and mannerisms hold millions in cult-like sway.
This may be true, maybe not...links please. Plus, do you think they really knew of his agenda at the time? Did he know they were Jewish? Do you?
PS--did you know that it is highly likely that Hitler was one quarter Jewish? His grandmother worked for a Jewish family, and she became preganant out of wedlock (if memory serves). Talk about your self-hating Jews...
Then there was the propaganda campaign. Jews are the masters of this and Hitler learned from them, period.
Again, Heloise, I am flabbergasted at your notions, but not exactly surprised. This kind of unexamined half-baked bullshit is why we still are so distrustful of each other in this country. What kind of an ignorant, bigoted, blanket statement is this, and where oh where do you get your ideas?
If anyone says that Jews, like Africans helped with slave trade, were not complicit in the Holocaust then they have their heads stuck in the sand.
OK, now you've really gone off the deep end...this is akin to Holocaust denial, which is represhensible and absurd. Why in the world would the Jews participate in their own extermination? Think about it now.
This does not mean that the Germans did not have a role, of course they did. But it seems that Hitler could not have fulfilled his destiny without the occult (which he loved from a former life) and the Catholic Church sanction.
So from your assumption (true or not) that Jewish occultists helped Hitler, you conclude that the Jews as a whole aided Hitler and wished to see their people destroyed. Common sense goes a long way sometimes, Heloise.
And Hitler would have fulfilled his destiny without the occult (which he loved from a former lilfe? Your credibility is now officially in the toilet, H). If not him, then likely someone else--the Zietgiest was ripe for this historically.
Catholic Church sanction--well, you might have something there, but i wouldn't blame all Catholics for that either.
Please, Heloise--provide some credible links for this nonsense or explain how you came up with these ideas of yours. Just because some Jew-hater told it to you does not make it so.
Ever heard of Hitler's Big Lie technique--namely, the longer you tell a lie the more it will be believed, and the bigger the lie the more people will believe it? Seems he's still working his magic on you and countless others from beyond the grave (in another life?) Fundamentalist Islamics adore Hitler and his Big Lie techniques (i.e., there was no Holocaust; Jews are scheming, dirty vermin; they drink the blood of Christians on Passover; they pollute everything that is good and pure and wholesome; they own all the banks; they steal, lie, and cheat; G-d himself wants them exterminated, and on and on and on....
Links, links, links, Heloise. Otherwise, I cannot even begin to take anything you say even halfway seriously.
So strange the way people's prejudices and unexamined beliefs come out into the open so easily, like a Pandora's Box, once these kinds of discussions come into serious play....
50 - Heloise
E: Not only that, Heloise, but our country is forever indebted to the many African American musicians who brought jazz--an indigenous musical form--to us. Not to mention rock and roll, etc etc--which was whitewashed when artists like Pat Boone ( and to a less extreme degree, Elvis and the Beatles) did their sometimes inferior, yet commercially viable, renditions of same.
Elvira you are patronizing me. I am also from New Orleans where my uncle (by marriage) was Sidney Bechet!!! DUH. I know you didn't know, but this is why I hate talking to white people. They act like no one knows a damn thing about a damn thing but them. Blacks better damn well know that New Orleans black people invented Jazz. If they don't then well I guess they're not black--just kidding. But seriously, blacks are not that stupid.
Then you speak for all whites in AMerica when you say "our country is forever indebted..." Who are you to say that? How do you know that everyone feels that way? Whites called it devil music at first.
I am part of the original group that built the AACM in CHicago. Where people like SUN RA were imitated by whites but his name was never mentioned by them. We know all about how whites stole from black artists. THat is a little that "Dream GIrls" tries to portray.
Heloise
51 - Heloise
Elvira: I've read at least two books on everything I mention above. I did not freakin make it up. WHat do I have to be a Jewish scholar from Harvard before you give me some credence?
There are tons of books. I don't have time to link them all. Go look for yourself. They are written by Jews and WASPS. When Hitler's (library) archives were opened...guess what? Jews were the first ones in there to do the research.
The only thing I have not been able to find the book that was supposed to come out of the research on his actual library...too bad I tried.
Elvira, I read, research like day and night and NO one could possibly keep up with all the potpourri of stuff I know or the hundreds of books I read in a year. Sorry, do you own homework.
You think I am making this stuff up? I don't think so.
Heloise
52 - Heloise
E: Why in the world would the Jews participate in their own extermination? Think about it now.
Now, I see Elvira why I don't argue with people like yourself...you don't know enough.
Heloise
53 - Heloise
Could you, like, make more of an uniformed, blanket, unscientific statement? Yes, Jews are a big presence, but hardly the only one. Mel Gibson? Brangelina? TomKat? Scorsese? Coppola? Clint Eastwood? DeNiro, Pacino? D. W. Griffith? (don't think he was Jewish). Bogie, Cagney, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, Lawrence Olivier? Spike Lee, Oliver Stone, Ang Lee, Meryl Streep, the Fondas, Jack Nicholson, Gordon Parks, Harry Belafonte, Sidney Poitier, Lawrence Fishburne, and a whole nother slew of great black actors, screenwriters, producers, directors, etc etc etc?
A Drop in the proverbial hollywood bucket.
Heloise
54 - Elvira Black
Heloise:
Elvira as an anthropologist...
Credentals, please? Do you have a Ph.D.; are you a professor of anthropology?
I have studied names, faces and other identifiers to practically tell a person what city and country they came from with just a look. So, yes I can tell, yes others can tell.
How patently absurd. This smacks of the same kind of "eugenics" that Hitler was so fond of. So birth certificates, DNA evidence, and other 21st century "nonsense" can be cast aside in favor of your intuitive "knowlege" based on your undoubtedly vast anthropological research and field work?
This is why there is now so much discrimination when blacks name their kids stuff like "Shanana" or "Sheldawn" that must be pronounced a certain way. Some of the names are really cute, but others are patently black.
Yes, but it's a far cry from this to saying you can tell a Jew from a Gentile just by looking at them!!!!!!! Jesus H. Christmas.
There is a whole science about names, name recognition, letters, in lieu of astrology. What's in a name? A whole lot.
Come again, Heloise? We don't usually choose our own names. Yes, some names are more likely to be chosen by blacks, but it doesn't take an antrhopologist or a rocket scientist to identify these--and they are chosen by the parents, not you or I.
Some names are more "Jewish," Indian, WASP-y, and so on. So what on earth is your point? That the people you cited who said anti-black things are Jewish because you can just "tell?"
You have GOT to be shitting me--I'm guessing you live in a place where your exposure to Jews is minimal to none. And I doubt very highly that you are an "antrhopologist"--just as the fact that you read one book "about" the Jews means you know more about my people than we do.
Getting a Ph.D. in anthropology is no walk in the park. It takes years of painstaking study research, a vast database of knowlege, many years of study, passing your orals, producing an original thesis, and so on. From the nature of your comments, if I had to guess I'd say that you are no more of an "anthropologist" than I am--though i do have a BA in psychology and sociology. Usually study of these social sciences helps to dispell just these kinds of nonsensical notions.
By the way, we do have horns--but they're retractable.
Now excuse me while I go count my money...and call all my Jew bankers, lawyers, and big time Hollywood honcho cohorts so we can solidify our plans for total world domination and the continuiing enslavement of the black race. Oh, and don't forget we also have to have some face time with all the Holocaust deniers and other Jew haters to make sure their propaganda machine is kept well-oiled.
55 - Heloise
Again, Heloise, I am flabbergasted at your notions, but not exactly surprised. This kind of unexamined half-baked bullshit is why we still are so distrustful of each other in this country. What kind of an ignorant, bigoted, blanket statement is this, and where oh where do you get your ideas?
Elvira, frankly, you don't want to know. I can never talk to Jews. They are an unexamined unintrospective lot basically. They think they are good, white and loveable. It makes me gag. We could go back and forth. But what I know trumps your knowledge (such as it isn't) therefore we are at a stalemate.
Sorry, E I didn't mean to make you mad. I know you are a well-meaning white woman married to a Catholic man. Two of the men I loved most in life are also white, but not Jewish. I am always being called anti-semitic because I tell it like it is about blacks as well as Jews.
Let's agree to disagree. Why? Because you won't win...I know, know, not think, way too much. Paul Johnson is a scholar. But not a Jewish one, so I guess that makes him inauthentic? I guess that makes us both bigots. See, I can say it. It doesn't bother me. But racism belongs to those in power.
Heloise
56 - Elvira Black
Clavos:
The implicit and overt antisemitism being expressed on this thread is making my skin crawl.
And I'm not Jewish.
Obviously, racism can come from anywhere...
Amen, Clavos--though it doesn't surprise me one little tiny bit.
The history of black/Jewish relations in this country is strained at best. Though many Jews have tried to help others who have been the victims of discrimination and oppression, some blacks have a deep resentment of Jews based in part on these nonsensical claims that are passed on amongst the black community and some of their so-called leaders.
Jewish-run businesses in black communities are a particular source of resentment. As I said and still maintain, in many poor black communities blacks do not as a rule have the financial wherewtihal or community/family support necessary to start their own busineses. When Jews come into a community--no matter how civil and well meaning they may be--many blacks hate the fact that they are "taking advantage and ripping off" black people--by, say, selling them cigarettes or jewelry or food or clothing or what have you.
If a black person wants to start a business, no one is stopping them. But take a good look at the Jewish, Arab, Indian, African, Chinese, and other immigrants who run many of these successful businesses. They work round the clock, dealing with a sometimes hostile public. In order to succeed, they not only need working capital, but a game plan, community/family support, and a killer work ethic. Plus an ability to save and invest, and incredible discipline and drive.
So Heloise, don't blame the Jews and others who service the black community (that's service, not exploitation). If they were not there, would you be able to survive on barbershops and hair salons, or would you also require banks, grocery stores, ;laundromats, restaurants (yes, some blacks do own very successful restaurants), and so on? Or would you be happy to live in a burned out, impoverished ghetto with no services, all in the name of black "empowerment?"
Shame on you, Heloise--for you are definitely part of the problem, not part of the solution--for blacks, Jews, and everyone in between.
57 - nugget
how do you guys and gals find the time to talk on line all day?
58 - Clavos
Heloise writes:
I am always being called anti-semitic
Surprise, surprise!!
I wonder where the hell people get that idea?
Maybe because you are??
59 - STM
A group of ex-pat Poms in Australia recently launched a case with the anti-discrimination tribunal to stop Australians using the P word, which they believe to be a derogatory, racist insult.
British People Against Racial Discrimination (BPARD) launched their case with the Advertising standards board (one ad at the start of the England-Australia Ashes cricket series urged all Aussies to "tonk a pom", while another took a swipe at their penchant for warm beer) and with the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission.
The commission, possibly laughing until its collective sides split, has ruled that the use of the word pom or pommy in itself is not an insult, but that some accompanying terms (such as "bastard") that are often used in conjunction with the P word may well be derogatory. However, my own personal polling indicates this is unlikely to stop anyone using them. It's probably on a par with: "You convict scum."
The beer ads stayed too. I just love a country that can get its priorities right.
Actually, all this talk about beer is making me thirsty ... it's hot outside and I'm as dry as a pommy's towel.
60 - Elvira Black
Heloise:
Shall I even bother to respond to any of your latest diatribes? You are digging your own intellectual grave deeper and deeper with every increasingly absurd comment you make here.
I am not being condescending--seems I can't win. If i acknowlege blacks' cultural contributions to society, I'm being presumptuous. So just take a good look at my last comment and see if you still think I'm some naive, well meaning white woman who was born yesterday.
Your refusal to provide links is a classic ploy used by hecklers on this site. Most of the morons who spout the most virulent hatred refuse to supply any linkage because they DON'T HAVE ANY. Rather than telling me to do my own research, why not do your own so you have evidence for your claims. Why should I have to do research to prove your baseless nonsense? Anthropologist? I think not...
Let's agree to disagree. Why? Because you won't win...
I already have, my friend.
I know, know, not think, way too much.
You said it, I didn't...
Paul Johnson is a scholar. But not a Jewish one, so I guess that makes him inauthentic?
Yet another little dig--and what's wrong with being a scholar, Jew or not, if he is a genuine one and not a self-serving anti semite?
I guess that makes us both bigots.
Speak for yourself.
See, I can say it. It doesn't bother me. But racism belongs to those in power.
Ah, I knew that was coming...The piece de resistance--you can be as bigoted as you want, because I'm the one "in power." Un-freakin-believeable.
What next--Heloise? Tell me, do you think the Holocaust is a figment of the Western world's imagination too?
Care to explain why you think Jews were the architects of their own extermination rather than just shrugging me off as hopelessly "ignorant?"
I thought not...or else go ahead and prove me wrong. Put your "money" where you mouth is and your credible links on the table. That's how we play it here--and yes, it takes some effort. Most worthwhile things in life do.
Ever hear the expression that "the unexamined life is not worth living?" I might not go that far, but I wouldn't want to reside in YOUR ignorant, racist, resentful, befuddled head, that's for damn sure.
61 - Elvira Black
nugget:
how do you guys and gals find the time to talk on line all day?
Get real, nugget--that passive agressive little dig is as stupid as it is uncalled for.
What the hell are YOU doing kibbitzing here if you have so many more important things to do?
I WROTE this piece, nugget--thus I feel it fitting to respond to comments. What have you written lately?
Clavos and STM--great stuff. STM, you Aussies really know how to insert humor into a tense situation. Hope that doesn't make me a "bigot..." And when I go to Amsterdam in June, you'd better believe I'll have my priorities in order--good Dutch beer and something else to help the "medicine" go down!
62 - Zedd
STM
Thanks for making light of things.
We humans are just silly.
63 - STM
It's all true though, Zedd. I think if the government tried to ban us from using the P word - other racist terms, however, ARE banned - there would be anarchy. It's a part of our kulcha.
64 - Elvira Black
Heloise:
And speaking of pooling. SOme friends and I got together and pooled our money to buy a radio franchise. It was lottery or something. We did not win, and lost thousands of dollars in the process. But we had to try.
Ok, if you can be vituperative and "bigoted," so can I. See how these things spiral?
In my boyfriend's Bronx 'hood are many poor people--not all of them are of color--I've seen elderly Jewish white women do the same thing--who play the lottery religiously.
Why? Because they're poor and want to have instant riches? Yes.
What are the odds? Several million to one?
How many of these folks spend money given to them by the government, hence the taxpayers, to spend on this foolishness?
I'm really surprised you would fess up to something so foolhaardy. How's this for a novel idea--
Wanna be rich? Rather than doing something as easy as entering a lottery which any moron could do, how about selecting a goal, working slowing and steadiily towards it, WORKING YOUR FREAKING BUTT OFF year after year, exhibiting maturity, patience, and perserverance, keeping in mind that the world owes you nothing and you are responsible for your own successes and failures in large part, not taking the easy way out and complaining that you never had an even break--and that's just for starters.
Wanna be a REAL anthropologist? Invest 4 years for an undergrad degree, another year for a master's, a few more for your doctorate--perhaps also teaching and/or working all the while. Study hard, learn about other cultures rather than presume to know about them from your narrow, solipsistic, and parochial viewpoint.
Want to be a world-class authority, writer, researcher? Study your ass off, get into advanced placement courses, get straight A's, do extra credit research, do an internship, study abroad for a semester, find yourself a mentor and study under him/her, perhaps accompanying them on field trips to other countries and continents, keep up on all the latest developments via the journals and books in your chosen field. Teach, publish or perish, develop your intellect and cultivate your originality, and QUESTION EVERYTHING AND ASSUME NOTHING . Every half-baked piece of bullshit you heard on the street or on your momma's knee, every TV show, movie, magazine, or rap song, every hateful piece of poisonous filth spewed out by some of your so-called "leaders," every baseless lie you've heard about any and every ethnic group, religion, or culture. Question and challenge them all with creditible facts and figures.
And then, you just might get somewhere in life instead of stewing in your own resentments, failures, and prejudices.
See? I've just given you one of my peep's trade secrets. Not as easy as it looks, is it?
65 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"narrow, solipsistic, and parochial viewpoint..."
Every now and then one sees just how smart a person really is. A woman (whom I cannot stand) uses words like "elide" at Desicritics.org, not to mention "essentialize." The point is, she knows how to use them properly. And English is not her first language. Whatever I think of her, I cannot call her "stupid".
It's nice to see the shining light of your intelligence, Elvira. No, that is not sarcasm at all. That is a compliment. Please take it as such.
As for the content of the article, I think that blacks should stop putting themselves down in America by using a culture of stupid violence to reject the culture of intelligent success that would get them somewhere beyond a "hood". They need to lead the way in stopping using the "n" word.
66 - Zedd
Ruvy
Do you mean me? I'm Black. I know nothing about violence and what I know about the hood I learned through my volunteer activities. Your statement was ignorant. How dare YOU lecture an entire race of people. Who do you see yourself as???
Also don't be impressed by the use of unique phraseology and terminology.... Its called a thesaurus. I think its the thoroughness in reasoning that matters.
67 - Zedd
Ruvy
I just thought about it. You are lecturing on violence and you ran off to live in the Middle East????? Chuckle!!! You didn't think before posting that did you? Snicker...
68 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
No Zedd,
I most certainly did not mean YOU. You, from what I can tell, fled a very violent society in Africa for a less violent society, and try hard to improve the society you have adopted as your own.
American black culture is very different from African black culture. And you are the product of African culture. Whatever I think of your politics, I KNOW you would not countenance any child of yours, particularly an eight year old, selling drugs in school. When my children were eight and ten respectively, that is exactly what they were treated to in the school cafeteria - a drug bust of an eight year old child with drugs hidden in the kinks of his hair and in his pants cuffs. One does not see this kind of behavior in eight year old children here - at least not in the religious schools my sons went to...
This is the culture of rejection of success that I mentioned in my comment. I write about what I've seen. My eyes do not lie. I write about what I've heard. As the member of the board of directors of an anti-poverty agency in St. Paul, I managed to hear stories of middle aged and elderly blacks - who struggled for civil rights in America in the 1960's painfully telling me of their deep sadness at seeing their children and grandchildren adopting a culture of hatred of success as a way of rebelling against the hated white man. They told me this over cups of coffee and pieces of cherry pie after board meetings. I listened then - and most assuredly did not lecture.
But in writing my comments to Elvira, I'm reflecting what these very sad parents and grandparents told me in St. Paul nigh seven years ago.
And there is no getting around it, Zedd. All this shit coming from rap music that degrades women and fellow blacks and just furthers a culture of violence among poor blacks in America, while making millionaires of those who sing about it, is based in American black culture. For this reason, blacks themselves have to take the led in giving a damn about stopping the violence in their own society.
The violence here comes mostly from war and terrorism. But this is not a violent society. Here, life is valued, and only the Israelis who copy American culture think in terms of niggers and whores.
That is the cold and vicious truth, and is the reason I'm so glad to have left the shores of the "new colussus".
69 - STM
Ruve: A nation connected by vast tracts of freeway ... the colussus of roads?
70 - Clavos
Pretty good, Stan!
71 - Zedd
Ruvy
What exactly are you talking about? I have been volunteering in the inner city since I was a teenager and there has NEVER been a drug bust of an eight year old, EVER!!! How dare you interpret one weird experience to be the cultural norm of millions of people. Should the school shootings that have taken place here be an interpretation of White youth culture, off course not.
Also your stint on rap music is just silly for a man of your age. Rockers a few years ago were disrespecting women talking about worshiping the devil, death and destroying society. While adults were annoyed, hard rock went out of style and life moved on. Get ahold of yourself. Rock did not by any means define White American culture. It was kids being immature and trying to get attention, like they do in every generation. Guess what rappers are kids trying to get attention and trying to say the most shocking thing possible.... THINK!!
I was brought to the US by my parents as a young child. I grew up in an African American community, as an African American. All of my close friends were African Americans. I attended an African American church all of my life. Married an African American, my kids are African American, I speak (by choice) like an African American (not in the wanna-be way, its what I speak when I am relaxed and with friends and family I switch just as comfortably). I KNOW the African American experience. You are sounding like a mad man. You know not of what you speak.
AGAIN you live in a violent culture. You have been fighting since the 40s. Its such a part of your culture that its not even thought about that much. Kids grow up to go and fight, girls and boys.
You see what keeps African Americans down are people who think like you. People who see them (us) as other than.... Your INSANE perspective of what AAs are contributes to the self fulfilling prophesy.
Shame on you!! These people have suffered enough and should be much worse off than they are now yet people continue to attack them as they make enormous strides despite tremendous difficulty. SHAME ON YOU!!! You are a little man. All of your ramblings about scripture are meaningless because of your MEAN spirit. SHAME!!!
72 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"You see what keeps African Americans down are people who think like you. People who see them (us) as other than.... Your INSANE perspective of what AAs are contributes to the self fulfilling prophesy.
Shame on you!! These people have suffered enough and should be much worse off than they are now yet people continue to attack them as they make enormous strides despite tremendous difficulty. SHAME ON YOU!!! You are a little man. All of your ramblings about scripture are meaningless because of your MEAN spirit. SHAME!!!"
Really, Zedd?
For a period of time in the early 1990's I supervised production at a United Way facility in Mpls. My job was two-fold. One was to supervise a crew of teenagers in putting out literature for the United Way - the other was to serve as an adult mentor of sorts. I got to use my skills as a fast food manager. My crew consisted largely of teenagers who were - well they were all "minority" kids as the guilty white liberals who hired me referred to them - and some of them were in dangerous situations.
The most talented of them was a black teenager who was consumed with hatred for white people.
All through the time that I supervised him, Robert was always challenging me to a fight. I was the supervisor, I was the white man, I was the authority figure. He talked about getting an Uzi and shooting people, and he had no use for white people. All white people were all that was to blame with the world.
I was truthful with him, as I am with all the other kids in the world, particularly my own. I told him and the others about the blacks in Liberia and Sierra Leone who were killing each other (the genocide in Rwanda and the eastern Congo had not yet taken place), explaining to them what Liberia and Sierra Leone had started out as. I told him about the Somalis who were killing each other in Somalia (I purposely stayed away from discussing Rhodesia, South Africa and Angola and Mozambique, where it could have been well be argued that whites were responsible for the violence and death taking place there) and confronted him - was this also the fault of the white man? He didn't want to hear. "You're dissin' black people!," he yelled at me. I told him "no, I'm telling you the truth. In South Africa, you can blame white people for the death and persecution. It's their fault. They hire black soldiers to keep order, and a lot of times that means killing other blacks. But Liberia and Sierra Leone are wars over money by rival gangs. Give the "crips" and the "bloods" countries to run, and you'll get Liberia and Sierra Leone - death and murder: blacks killing blacks for money."
I told him the truth. But he didn't want to hear the truth. Just like a lot of folks on this site who do not want to hear the truth.
One day he came in bragging about how he had gotten drunk the night previous and beaten up one of the homeless drunken white bums who hung around on Lake Street. Pumped up with his new-found power and authority, he wanted to work out on me.
I looked at him dead in the eye and asked him, "is this what you want out of life - getting drunk and beating up drunk white people? This is what makes you a man? Is that going to be your legacy to your family, if you ever have one? You're better than that. I know it and you know it."
When this got back to the guilty white Christian who had hired me, it really bothered her that I was so blunt and straightforward. The PC types can't handle truth. They all have their heads in the sand, heads buried in fear. I didn't know if anything I said made a difference to the young bright, angry man under my supervision.
Several years later, I ran across Robert again. I had my job back as a manager in a fast food joint and was working the lunch rush as a cashier. I didn't recognize the young man who gripped my hand with a big smile on his face when he placed his order for a whopper meal. He had a job in a shoe store, and things were going well with him.
If I had been the hateful little man you describe in your comment, he never would have done that. He would have paid for his food, taken it and told his friends what an asshole I was. I have the feeling that didn't happen that day after Robert sat down to gobble his whopper with cheese.
73 - Zedd
Ruvy
What????
Why was it wrong to hire the minority youth??? Why was it out of guilt?? Did they make and serve burgers or did they do weird things back there and get paid for it?
You are talking about a youth. A kid who was trying to find himself like many other youth. Right now hundreds of thousands of White teens run around wearing all black, white powder and dark eye make up (I suppose emulating corpse). They are very negative and purport to hate everything in society, mainly authority figures. Why would I hate them. They are just immature and will get their heads together like Robert. Actually I don't believe he beat up a homeless man. His political idealism doesn't fit the beating up scenario. Either you are trying to add spice to your post or he was trying to tick you off knowing how easily convinced most Whites are that we do such things. Anyway, the reason he sat down with you is because HE GREW UP and HE is a nice person. You missed that.
His race has nothing to do with his behavior, nor does his culture. Do you realise that most African Americans don't even know what the political issues are within the African American community. Like other Americans, most AAs, especially the class that you continue to refer to, are just living their lives.
This kid played games with you because he knew that you saw Blacks as "other than". I'm sure you thought you had encountered something significant. He was just using your THEY mentality against YOU.
74 - Nancy
STM - what is a "Pom"? I thought it was just a cute joking name for Englishmen, kind of like how you all call us "Yanks"? I never realized it was derogatory!
75 - Christopher Rose
Pom and Yank are derogatory, Nancy, but in an affectionate kind of way. It's a bit like calling the Aussies "Crims" and "Hos"!