Firstly, let me start by stating that this is in no way a justification for the hostage-taking of Corporal Shalit. That was an immoral act of terrorism, illegal under international law. I feel I have to say this, because past experience has shown me that any criticism of Israeli policies that is unaccompanied by a statement confirming that, "No, I don't support terrorism" gets some people frothing at the mouth in a frenzy, shouting things like "anti-Israeli" and "anti-Semitic" at me.
The militants that kidnapped Shalit are trying to use him as a bargaining chip; to negotiate the release would appear to be sympathising with the terrorists.
But, in actual fact, it would be a mistake to overlook it. There are few people outside the Arab world who feel the hostage-taking was justified, mainly because the taking of hostages is a war crime under international law.
Israel currently holds around 9,000 prisoners, 794 of whom are "administrative detainees." In other words, they are being held without charge or trial. Under international law, administrative detention is legal, but with certain restrictions.
So, for example, under international law, administrative detention is to be used solely to prevent acts of violence or other clear dangers to security. In other words, it is not to be used as a form of punishment. Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem has found that administrative detention is often used as
...a quick and efficient alternative to criminal trial, primarily when they do not have sufficient evidence to charge the individual, or when they do not want to reveal their evidence. This use of administrative detention is absolutely prohibited and totally blurs the distinction between preventive and punitive detention.
B’Tselem also found that, “Israel administratively detains Palestinians for their political opinions and non-violent political activity. Following signing of the Oslo Accords, Israel also administratively detained Palestinians who opposed the peace process.” This is obviously a violation of the international minimum standards of freedom of speech and expression, and so is a violation of international law.
International law states that residents of an occupied territory may only be administratively detained in the occupied territory, and must not be transferred to the territory of the occupying country. Before the transfer of land of the Palestinian Authority, Israel held some detainees in the Occupied Territories, but then moved them to detention sites in Israel. This is a blatant violation of international law.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Mark Edward Manning
In your last article, you acted as if Israel attacks without reason; in fact, she only ever retaliates, which she's got every right to do. So now wonder you got attacked for being an anti-Semite.
2 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
Firstly, that's got nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
But anyway, its false. Israel doesn't only retaliate. And even when it does - arguably, in Lebanon this time - it does so in a disproportionate and illegal manner.
The current offensive in Gaza is not a retaliation, not by a long shot. It's only a retaliation if you want to ignore any history before une 24, when Shalit was kindapped. So, yo'd ignore the Israeli kidnapping of two Palestinians on June 22, for example.
3 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
You remember Mark, Jamie? He's the fellow that Arab slammed with so many nasty names.
Mark, you remember Jamie? He's the fellow I told got slammed by that Arab with so many nasty names.
Jamie is not an anti-Semite. He's Jewish like me, Mark. If only it mattered to him... It doesn't. He judges his own far more harshly than he judges the ones pledged to kill him.
His views as he represents them here are the apotheosis of the Talmudic saying "he who is kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind."
4 - Deano
I'm reminded of that line from The Untouchables:
"Never bring a knife to a gun fight.."
For better or worse, Hezbollah and Hamas kicked off this storm, not the Israelis. The results are on their heads.
5 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
"If only it mattered to him... It doesn't. He judges his own far more harshly than he judges the ones pledged to kill him."
No, I don't. I try to judge objectively, and when one side is responsible for kidnapping a soldier and the other is responsible for destroying a society...well, rightly, that influences my judgement.
"For better or worse, Hezbollah and Hamas kicked off this storm, not the Israelis. The results are on their heads."
I'm sorry, how did Hamas kick off this storm? And the point is that the results are not on their heads. Disproportionate response, destruction of civilian infrastructure, intimidation of civilians and the taking of hostages (I'm referring to the 64 Hamas members) are all illegal under international law, and so those actions are on Israeli heads.
6 - Deano
You really want me to delve into the long litany of abuses, terror, murder, bombings of civilians etc. that Hamas has been responsible for?
The Palestinians have had a awful lot of opportunities in the last ten years to start moving towards governance that is less corrupt, less prone to violence as the solution of choice and they elected not to do so - to the point that they put Hamas in power. Despite their waffling back and forth and the situation with the settlements, the Israelis stepped up and permitted the Palestinian Authority to begin establishing a Palestian state, albeit a weak one. Given the size of Israel and the obvious vulnerability that is a damn significant move on their part, even if implementation has been uneven.
When Hamas is ready to hang up the guns and actually start dealing with the reality of the situation - that Israel is NOT going to magically disappear and to recognize that Israel has the right to exist, then I might start to have some level of sympathy for the Palestians but they currently seem unable or unwilling to rein in the terror...frankly I think they are more confortable with terror and antagonistic relations with Israel as it is far easier to control and manage their own internal political schisms with Israel as the pentultimate bogeyman.
You think Hamas didn't know how the Israelis were likely to respond to the kidnapping and murder of several of their soldiers and citizens? You think Hezbollah and Hamas both just happened to decide to do this right now off-the-cuff? They kicked over the can on this one and they will pay the price for it. Stupidity is always a capital crime.
7 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
"You really want me to delve into the long litany of abuses, terror, murder, bombings of civilians etc. that Hamas has been responsible for?"
You can, if you want to. But, unless you are saying that you would find it acceptable if Israel acted like a terrorist organisation, it would be quite pointless.
"The Palestinians have had a awful lot of opportunities in the last ten years to start moving towards governance that is less corrupt, less prone to violence as the solution of choice and they elected not to do so - to the point that they put Hamas in power."
The vote to put Hamas in power *was* a vote against corruption. As to violence, before the kidnapping of Shalit, Hamas kept to a unilaterally imposed ceasefire for 17 months (except in cases of extreme provocation). Israel has done no such thing. The equivalent would be for Olmert to announce that the IDF would not fire at Palestinians or Palestinian territory regardless of Palestinian action, and then keep to that statement for 17 months even while Hamas continued to bomb Israel. I know, unthinkable isn't it?
"the Israelis stepped up and permitted the Palestinian Authority to begin establishing a Palestian state, albeit a weak one. Given the size of Israel and the obvious vulnerability that is a damn significant move on their part"
It's nothing of the sort. By *law*, Palestinians are entitled to a state on Gaza and all of the West Bank. They are entitled to E. Jerusalem and the refugees are entitled to return to their homes in Israel. On *all* these four areas, the only side to makes compromises is the Palestinians. Trouble is, Israelis view compromise based on what they want, as opposed to what is demanded of them by international law. Actually, Israel has made not a single compromise in the entire history of negotiations. Not a single one.
"When Hamas is ready to hang up the guns and actually start dealing with the reality of the situation - that Israel is NOT going to magically disappear and to recognize that Israel has the right to exist"
What about the Prisoner's Document? It decrees that resistance is legitimate, but should be restricted to occupied Israeli settlements, as opposed to settlements behind the Green Line.
"You think Hamas didn't know how the Israelis were likely to respond to the kidnapping and murder of several of their soldiers and citizens?"
Well, they must have known there would be a response. As to the scale of the response...who knows? But again, nothing that Hamas will ever do or ever has done justifies the committing of war crimes against civilians. Nothing.
8 - Deano
17-month ceasefire eh? Here's an incomplete incident list (courtesy of Wikipedia) of Palestinian attacks on Israel during just the 2005 portion of that period:
•January 2: one Israeli civilian was seriously wounded when a Palestinian mortar shell hit the Erez crossing.
•January 2: one woman was lightly injured when a barrage of Qassam rockets hit Sderot.
•January 2: Vladimir Rubin, a 66 years old security guard of the natural reserve of Beit Jubrin was shot dead. The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility.
•January 4: two Israeli children were injured when a Palestinian mortar shell landed near a school bus.
•January 5: 12 soldier are wounded, when a Qassam rocket hit a base near the Gaze-Israeli border.
•January 7: One Israeli is killed and four Israelis were wounded from in a shooting attack in the West Bank. In Gaza, two Palestinians were killed.
•January 11: Nissim Arviv, 26, dies from his wounds, after being struck by a Palestinian mortar in the Erez crossing nine days ago.
•January 12: Gideon Rivlin, 50, a father of five, is killed and 4 Israeli soldiers are wounded in attack by 3 Palestinian militants who detonated a roadside bomb near the Morag settlememt greenhouse in Gush Katif. IDF forces returned fire and killed two of the attackers. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
•January 13: Two Palestinian suicide bombers explode themselves and a truck ladden with explosives in the Karni crossing - a terminal in the eastern Gaza Strip allowing Palestinian merchants to export goods. At least 6 civilians, all Israelis, were killed and about 10-20 were wounded in the attack. Palestinian militants launched mortar shells and automatic weapsons fire against ambulances who came to evacuate the wounded and treat the casualties. Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas and The Popular Resistance Committees claimed joint responsibility.
•January 15: On noon, an Israeli child living on a settlement was injured from a Qassam rocket, losing his hand. In the afternoon, a Qassam rocket hit Sderot and wounded 6 people. An Israeli 17-years-old woman suffered critical wounds. Hamas claimed responsibility.
•January 18: Palestinian suicide bomber killed one security officer and wounded six Israelis in Gush Katif junction in the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility. (Haaretz)
•January 21: Ella (Chaya) Abukasis, 17, who sustained critical wounds from a Qassam rocket on January 15 when she tried to shield her 10-years-old brother from the rocket, died from her wounds in the Soroka hospital.
•January 31: 2 people suffered shock injuries as 7 mortar shells hit Neve Dekalim settlement in the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility and say the shooting was a revenge for the killing of a 10-years-old girl in Rafah earlier this morning. Palestinians initially claimed she was killed from IDF tank shell but it was letter revealed that she was killed by Palestinian pilgrims, who shot spontaneously into the air.
•February 3: 6 Israeli soldiers were hurt in two separate incidents southwest to Hebron and in the Gaza Strip, when Palestinian gunmen opened fire on their cars. In the Gaza Strip, Givati Brigade soldiers returned fire and killed the militant. The Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility.
•February 25 - February 26: A Palestinian suicide bomber explodes himself at the entrance of the near-coast "Stage" club in Tel Aviv, killing at least 5 Israelis and wounding 38 more. Responsibility is reportedly claimed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. The al-Aqsa Brigades said that Hizbullah was involved in the attack. All three groups subsequently deny responsibility. However, on the 26th, the Islamic Jihad HQ in Damascus, Syria claimed responsibility.
•February 28: two Israelis are wounded by a Palestinian shooting attack eastern to the city of Modi'in.
•According to Haaretz, 5 Israelis and 8 Palestinians were killed during February. At least 4 Palestinians were combatants and other 2 died from injuries sustained months ago.
•March 7: Two Israeli soldiers were shot in Hebron, the two were injured, one seriously
•March 20: Three Israeli soldier and one police officer are wounded (two of them seriously) after they were shot by Palestinians in Ramallah. They entered the city by accident during a search for stolen cars. The Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claim responsibility.
•April 5: one Israeli citizen is shot in the chest and critically wounded in the settlement of Morag (northwest to Rafah). The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility.
•April 7: a Qassam rocket hit a cemetery in Sderot, but causes no casualties.
•April 18: Two Israelis, one engineering NCO and one civilian, were wounded by a Palestinian sniper in attack on Philadelphi Route of southern Gaza. The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility.
•April 21: Three Israeli soldiers were hurt in blast when there jeep went on an IED roadside bomb, near Karni crossing, on the edge of the Gaza Strip.
•April 22 and April 23: A Qassam rocket was launched toward northern Gaza community. No casualties were reported. Also, Palestinian militants stabbed a soldier near Ganim settlement, injuring him moderately.
•May 2: Following an Israeli raid on the Palestinian city of Tulkarm, one Israeli soldier and one Islamic Jihad leader are killed. The soldier is killed in a gunfight with 3 members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The three were suspected to have been a part of the cell which was involved in Tel Aviv "Stage" club bombing in February 2005. Shafiq Abdul Rani, the leader of the Jihad cell in Tulkarm was killed and another militant was arrested.
•May 16: A Palestinian is killed after he tries to stab a soldier.
•May 16: Four Israeli construction workers were injured by a Palestinian anti-tank rocket attack on Philadelphi Route.
•May 18: It was the peak of a sharp increase in violence in the Gaza Strip after Palestinian factions shelled Israeli settlements and towns with more than 31 mortar shells and Qassam rockets. Two Hamas militants were killed this day: one in Rafah, while trying to plant a bomb, and one in Khan Yunis while trying to launch a mortar shell. Palestiniab claim that the Khan Yunis mortar squad was hit by a missile fired from an unmanned drone. Israel refused to comment.
•May 20: A big terror attack on an Israeli settlement was thwarted. 3-4 Palestinian militants snuck into an abandoned UNRWA structure watching over Kfar Darom settlement and started to bombard the settlement with mortar shells and anti-tank missiles. IDF and MAGAV forces returned fire, killing one militant and chasing off the rest. Hamas claimed joint responsibility with the Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Popular Resistance Committees.
•May 28: A Hamas militant was killed after a rocket he was handling has misfired.
•May 28: Three Palestinian gunmen opened fire on an Israeli base near Jenin. Soldiers returned fire, wounding the three. They were arrested and taken into medical treatement. Later, one of the militants died from his wounds
•May 29: a Palestinian is shot dead by Israeli soldiers after he tried to stab them in Hebron. Soldier called him to stop and fired warning shots but he kept advancing toward them, drawing a 12-cm dagger.
•May 29: Two Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades militants were killed in the Gaza Strip after a bomb they made exploded prematurely.
•June 7: A day of violence erupts in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. [56]:
o It begins with a barrage of three Qassam rockets on Sderot, severely damaging one house. Hamas claimed responsibility.
o Israeli soldiers kill senior Islamic Jihad militant Marwah Kamil after he fired on troops that attempted to arrest him. The operation took place under heavy fire exchanges, in which another Palestinian gunmen was killed and an IDF officer was wounded from a grenade. An IDF Caterpillar D9 started to demolish Kamil's house after he shot at troops, killing him.
o A Qassam rocket hit the Ganey Tal and killed 3 workers: 2 Palestinians and a Chinese citizen. Another 6 workers were wounded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
o A total of 9 Qassam rockets, 5 mortar shells and 5 anti-tank missiles were fired upon Israeli settlements.
•June 18: a militant attack on Kfar Darom settlement is foiled. Four militants from the Fatah and the Islamic Jihad tried to infiltrate into the settlement, but were noticed by IDF soldiers. The soldiers opened fire and killed 1 or 2 militants. Earlier in the morning, two Palestinian teenagers were arrested while trying to smuggle weapons.
•June 19:
o One Israeli soldier is killed and 2 construction workers are injured after Palestinian militants fired anti-tank missile at them in the Philadelphi Route. The soldiers returned fire and managed to kill one of the attackers. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah's Abu-Reish Brigades claimed responsibility
•June 20:
o One Israeli is killed in a West Bank ambush after Palestinian gunmen shot his car. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
o A Palestinian female suicide bomber was caught in the Erez Crossing, carrying explosives and a detonator in her underwear. She planned to carry out a suicide bombing attack in the Soroka hospital were she received medical treatment and was scheduled for a doctors appointment. The woman was identified as Wafa Samir Ibrahim Bass and said she was sent by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.
•June 24: An Israeli teenager, Avichay Levi (17), is killed and four others are injured after a shooting attack from a Palestinian car in Beit Haggai junction south of Hebron. The Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility.
•June 26: Avi Mantzur (16), who was critically injured in the June 24 Beit Haggai attack, dies from his wounds.
•According to Haaretz, 5 Israelis and 7 Palestinians were killed during June. Three of the Israelis killed were civilians, one was a soldier that was killed by Hizbullah. Four of the Palestinians killed were armed militants; one was killed when he tried to infiltrate through the Gaza Strip barrier. Two more Palestinians were killed by a Qassam rocket fired by Palestinians; this attack also killed a Chinese worker.
•July 12: Palestinian militants carried out two suicide bombings against Israel. A car bomb was detonated near a school in the Shavey Shomron settlement, but failed to cause casualties, though the bomber was seriously injured. In Netanya, a suicide bomber exploded himself near HaSharon Mall, killing at least four women (including two friends aged 16) and one male. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
•July 14: One Israeli woman was killed after the Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades fired a barrage of more than a dozen Qassam rockets over Israeli settlements inside and outside the Gaza Strip. The woman, aged 22, was killed by a direct hit from a rocket in Netiv Ha'asara, a settlement north of the Gaza Strip.
•July 15: Seven Hamas militants were killed by Israeli Air Force targeted strikes. The attacks came after Hamas and Fatah launched more than two dozen Qassam rockets over Israeli settlements, killing one woman and jeopardizing the Sharem al-Sheikh truce.
•July 17:
o Two Hamas mortars injure five residents of the Israeli settlement Neve Dekalim in the Gaza Strip. Four Qassam rockets land in Israeli territory but no injuries are reported. An Israeli missile attack on a car in Beit Lahiya misses the two men in the car but seriously wounds a Palestinian bystander.
•July 24: Two Israeli civilians, eldery husband ans wife, were slain by Palestinian shooting attack in Kisufim road in the Gaza Strip. The Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. IDF
o A Palestinian stabs two Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, killing one and injuring the other.
•August 28: A Palestinian suicide bomber blows up outside a bus station in Beersheba, seriously wounding two security guards.
•October 16: 2 drive-by shootings in the West Bank after a reasonably peaceful time in the region, the first in gush atzion junction near Hebron killing 3 Israeli civilians and wounding 3, the second in Alie junction in Binyamin settlement causing one teenager to be seriously wounded.
•October 26: 5 Israli killed and 30 wounded in a suicide bombing in Hadera's open air market. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack,
•December 5 - A suicide bomber killed himself and at least five Israelis in a shopping mall in Netanya. Both Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility. In a phone call to the Associated Press, Islamic Jihad identified the bomber as Lotfi Abu Saada, from the village of Illar between the West Bank towns of Tulkaram and Jenin.
Apologies for the length of the list, but that is a result of Hamas not me...Not what I would call a ceasefire by any sensible definition....
9 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
I count eight Hamas incidents in that period, but yes, I had previously thought they had been involved in nothing except for a couple of incidents.
Of course, if I were to draw up a list of Israeli actions over that period...well, it'd be a lot longer than the list above, that's for sure.
Just in the past month (before the Shalit incident) this is what the Israeli military was involved in:
"On June 8, the Israeli army assassinated the recently appointed Palestinian head of the security forces of the Interior Ministry, Jamal Abu Samhadana, and three others. On June 9, Israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on Beit Lahiya beach. Some 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.
On June 13, an Israeli plane fired a missile into a busy Gaza City street, killing 11 people, including two children and two medics. On June 20, the Israeli army killed three Palestinian children and injured 15 others in Gaza with a missile attack. On June 21, the Israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children. Then came the Israeli capture of two Palestinians, followed by the Palestinian capture of the Israeli soldier and the killing of the two other soldiers."
(thats from medialens, simply because they condensed it all into an easy couple of paragraphs)
And yet, for some reason, the press and most politicians seem intent on starting the histroy of the current crisis from the Shalit capture, thus making the Israeli offensive a "retaliation". This in turn supports the idea that, if only Hamas would give up its attacks, everything would stop.
But why? Why not start the timeline two days earlier, when Israel kidnapped two Palestinians in Gaza? That would make the kidnapping of Shalit a "retaliation".
You'll notice that there is *no* coverage of the two Palestinians who were abducted by Israel in the Western press - this is to be expected, since Palestinians, unlike Israelis, just don't matter.
10 - Deano
I could have also listed the IDF incidents, Wikipedia has a fairly good summary. My point is that if you think that any Hama-imposed ceasefire actually exists and is anything other then propoganda, then you are dreaming in technicolor...
Both parties in the conflict can easily pick up the past, dust it off and throw it in the others face. There is a point whereby the back and forth ceases to matter.
Hamas as an organization is one that a). refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist b). is dedicated to the utter destruction of Israel and c). Has deliberately escalated the situation through hostage taking.
Whether the Israeli response is proportionate or not, Hamas was blatently stupid to kick over the can.
11 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
What Hamas did was not only stupid, but criminal.
But what Hamas did is sooo not the most important thing about the current crisis. And it certainly is nothing compared to the Israeli response. Hamas, like any other government, has an obligation to defend its citizens.
Sometime countries need to use force to defend themselves. Presumably you wouldn't disagree with that. When Israel feels it needs to resort to force, it uses tanks and jets - because it has them. When Hamas feels it needs to resort to force, it uses suicide bombers and Qassams - because thats what Hamas has.
The lesson there is that terrorism is the last resort of a desperate people, and that the only way to combat it is to, you know, make the people less desperate. In this case, that involves negotiating a fair peace.
And the current Israeli crimes in Gaza show that the current Israeli leadership, likes its predecessors, doesn't recognise that, and still feels it can makes its problems go away by dropping bombs on them.
12 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Deano,
Don't get too worked up over Jamie. He's just a deluded ex-pat who thinks he has to fling feces on his former homeland. He's not that bad.
There are the "Women in Black" mothers whose sons died in Lebanon who pressured the government (which was more than willing to be pressured) to flee Lebanon. So now we have missiles flying into Haifa and Acco and these wonderful women are beating their breasts with righteousness, saying "it's not their fault".
I'm paying a price personally because of this shit that thy pulled.
Then there is "MaHsom Watch" another bunch of left wing bitches who make life miserable for the soldiers who have to man the roadblocks. I'm not sure whether Dana Olmrt or Aliza Olmert is one of these bitches. Then there are the innumerable "human rights groups" funded by the EU, who will only listen to an Arab sand not a Jew. Then there is Peace Now which receives EU money to perform what amounts to espionage on the towns and villages of Judea and Samaria, and which reports to the United States government.
I could go into more, but all in all, they make Jamie look like an angel. He just hustles delusions on his blog-site.
13 - Mark Edward Manning
Ruvy: "He judges his own far more harshly than he judges the ones pledged to kill him."
Sounds like the Left in America and Britain!
14 - Luk
Wow...you all have done a marvelous job of attacking the poster and ignoring the argument he makes. I support Israel's right to defend itself - but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to possible egregious conduct on either side. How about a discussion of the points that are raised in the post?
15 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Luk,
Originally, I wrote a brief comment to the author of the article telling him that this is an excellent question, but that this is not the appropriate time to address it.
This comment, along with one or two others were erased in some kind of glitch - these things happen from time to time.
I still hold to this view. We in Israel are at war, and in spite of the machinations of the diplomats and generals, this war can spiral into something that none of us (except those of us looking forward to a messianic redemption) expect.
Now some will pick up on that "messiasnic redemption" line and say "don't be deluded by fantasies," or some such other nonsense. To you, all I can say is that I feel like Alice talking to the Queen of Hearts. Powerful and mighty she was, the Queen of Hearts, until she turned into nothing but a leaf on the ground, together with all the Cards in Alice's dream.
The Rabbit scampered off, and Alice awoke to Reality.
This is not the appropriate time to address the issue of Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails, or even of Jewish prisoners held in Israeli jails for political reasons. There are many more issues pendant to this and many more that will be pendant, issues that go far beyond what Jamie seems to comprehend, and far beyond what he has addressed in his article.
16 - Mark Edward Manning
Ruvy, I accept that the fellow is a Jew, but a self-hating one. That's actually a lot more common a phenomenon among "fair-minded" Jewry than I would have thought. Mind you, they're mostly American - no wonder you left for Israel - or European Jews who make up the guilty "cognoscenti."
Any thoughts on this?
17 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
There is this phenomenon among the Israeli "cognoscenti" also. They gather in their coffee shops and they talk about what how the poor Arabs are persecuted - not that they aren't, they are. But they put the blame on religious Jews, the people who settle in Hebron, Ma'aleh Efraim, Gush Etzion, and wqho at the behest of the secular Labour party here, settle in Gush Qatif. Like the "mothers in black" they beat their breasts (when they're not smoking joints) and cry "we are not at fault." Never mind that they cheat Arab workers on wages, treat foreign workers like trash, talk liberal politics and practice fascist exploitiation.
Never mind that they've polluted the Haifa Bay, the Kishon River and don't give a damn about anything except their creature comforts, and cheating the government of taxes and benefits. I'd stand on a bigger soap-box or shout from the roof-tops, but too many religious Jews are not much better, beating their wives, abusing their children, cheating the government and each other.
The country is not a pretty sight, Mark, and too many of us have descended too far. But ironically, it is and will increasingly become the only safe have for Jews on the planet - even the self-hating ones.
And now back to packing.
18 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, I was with you most of the way there but I got lost when you wrote that the Israeli "cognoscenti" polluted Haifa Bay and the Kishon River. How exactly did they do that all by themselves?
19 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris,
I made an unconscious move from the "congnoscienti" - nice word for parasites, really - to the "liberal, leftist" elite in this nation that controls the media and the money and has led us down a path of disaster. Sometimes, even I don't see the road signs in my mind...
20 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
"Ruvy, I accept that the fellow is a Jew, but a self-hating one."
Wow, that's a remarkable observation to have made from a single article that merely points out the *facts* about Israeli prisoners.
It really shows the lengths you will go to avoid talking about the issue.
"Like the "mothers in black" they beat their breasts (when they're not smoking joints) and cry "we are not at fault." Never mind that they cheat Arab workers on wages, treat foreign workers like trash, talk liberal politics and practice fascist exploitiation."
Are you their spokesperson? Or are your characterising them as unfairly as you did me? In fact, who are 'they'? Are you saying all liberals in Israel polluted Haifa bay, or cheat Arab workers? If not, then what exactly are you on about?
21 - Justin Berry
"Firstly, let me start by stating that this is in no way a justification for the hostage-taking of Corporal Shalit."
I always wondered why my platoon sgt. would punch us in the face every time we started a sentence with "With all due respect..." His reasoning was that we were either going to say something stupid or disrespectful and it was best just to go ahead and stop it before it started.
I beleive if he were standing close enough to you when you began your thread he would have broken your fingers.
22 - Christopher Rose
Justin, the reason your sgt did that is cos he was an asshole and a bully. In a free society people actually have the right to say stupid things.
23 - Justin Berry
That may be true but my point is when people are going to say something stupid they usually give you a warning. My staff sgt. also used to say "when you get out of the Corps you have paid your fare for freedom and you can say any stupid thing that comes in your head, but for now I cant stop you from being stupid so I'll just break you of the habit.
24 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
Well, as I explained, I had to include that bit because otherwise, some idiots would reply saying 'ur a terrorist' or 'Jew hata'.
Perhaps if you read more than the first line...
25 - Justin Berry
I read the post and could'nt help but notice that despite what you said that is exctly what you tried to do.