Many people cite Jefferson for the "wall of separation" doctrine regarding religious matters and its relationship to the state. This interpretation is novel and interesting, but unconvincing. (At the founding the official state church of Massachusetts was Puritanism and that was A-OK). The real development of this doctrine was in the 1940s as a part of sweeping anti-Catholic bias of the KKK (they didn't just go after blacks, after all).
The phrase found its first use in the opinion of the court written by Klansman Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black in Everson v. the Board of Education. This ruling specifically targeted Catholic schools as he was worried about a coup from Catholics.
I wonder if the ACLU realizes that they generally defend a KKK invented legal doctrine that was used as a part of religious discrimination.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - wahoo
"wall of seperation"?
No.
"wall of separation"
Proper spelling is important.
2 - Maurice
If you think that is funny (odd) read the "Pink Swastika".
3 - Silas Kain
Let me ask a serious question here. We tend to demonize the KKK for their inherent bigotry and machine of hate. But truth be told, have we in America come that far? Are we truly a blind society when it comes to race? It seems to me that we're great at talking the talk but when it comes to walking the walk, we suck. I honestly believe that we need to look at ourselves as a society and face facts. We haven't evolved all that much when it comes to racial tolerance. Instead of demonizing the ACLU for defending the KKK's right to spew hate, we should be looking at ourselves.
Jefferson had a very interesting approach to Christianity. Once again, Americans deify their forefathers without looking at the whole picture. Jefferson was a slave owner, misogynist and overall chauvinist. That being said, he was a typical American in his day except when it came to the matter of Christ. Instead of interpreting the Bible as the absolute Truth, he focused more on Christ's words and parables.
4 - Nancy
All of the Jefferson & Randolph clans were superior at mental gymnastics. Look at Cousin John R...made Tom look like a piker.
5 - Matt
John--have you taken the time to read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, where the term "separation of church and state" is derived from? Jefferson makes a clear link between the constitution and separation of church and state. Take some time to think out your ideas for more than 2 minutes after they hit you, instead of some ill-conceived, hit and run, half post. Calling it a KKK invented legal doctrine shows how ill-deserving your work is of respect.
Here is the letter--
"Gentlemen, ? The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ?make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,? thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem."
6 - Silas Kain
So. Did Jefferson expressly say that a prayer could not be said at a public function? I'm playing Devil's advocate here. The Constitution states, �make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.� Does saying a common prayer at a public gathering establish a religion? Does the prohibition of a public school student from singing a religious hymn in a school variety show constitute a violation of his/her Constitutional rights in freely exercising his/her religion?
There is such a thing as common sense and that cannot be legislated. There can never be the establishment of a state Church. That we are guaranteed. But we are not prohibited from expressing our religious beliefs so long as it does not infringe on the right of another individual. We've become a society that's so busy parsing words that we've lost all sense of reason. Have we devolved to the point where we have to have nine men and women dressed in black robes decide every issue for us?
7 - Silas Kain
Unbolding thread.
8 - andy marsh
Silas - the govt is constantly trying to legislate common sense...you know helmet laws...seat belt laws...
9 - Silas Kain
How can the government legislate that which its officials fail to possess? For that matter how can we elect officials with common sense when we don't even use it when casting our votes?
10 - andy marsh
Fair enough Silas!
11 - HW Saxton
Nancy, What exactly is a "Piker"? I've have heard the term used many times in books.Mainly used in hard boiled crime novels from the 30's and 40's ?
12 - Nancy
Good grief! I must be outdated. I've always heard it used to describe someone (it's always been used in my hearing in ref. to persons, not things) looking like a amateur when compared with someone extremely talented or outrageously brazen in something, OR it can mean someone who mooches, borrows money & doesn't pay it back, stiffs people, etc. - but in a minor way. My sister promised to let me wear her sweater, but she reneged; she's such a piker.
13 - HW Saxton
You're probably not outdated Nancy. It's
just a regional slang thang most likely.
I appreciate the answer all the same.
14 - Bryan McKay
Even if the rule of separation of Church and State does stem from the KKK like John claims, this doesn't change the fact that it's still a good idea in its current usage. Just because something might have its roots in prejudice, it doesn't mean that it can't be transformed and used towards the public good. If anything, invoking separation of Church and State undermines the supposed original intentions that John claims, so it really ends up subverting the discrimination behind it rather than supporting it.
Having said that, I still think this is a load of crap. I've seen plenty of evidence against John's claim, but not very much for it except for this book, but who would trust a guy named Hamburger? Besides, his theories seem to be fairly off-base with what the majority of the intellectual population holds true. I'd have to read the book to really get a firm grasp of his ideas, but it seems to me more like right-wing religious fanaticism rather than real historical analysis. It seems to me that many "myth"-busting books like this (from either the far right or far left) already have a predetermined outcome in mind when beginning their research, so the results can always be twisted in the author's favor.
15 - Matt
Thanks Silas--I'm hoping my comment can be unbolded as well. Damn html.
My issue is not with an absolute separation of church and state. I am fine with prayers being said at a public gathering. I am fine with "Under God". My issue is with calling the desire to keep the 2 institutions from bleeding into each other some type of KKK policy.
16 - Nancy
Interestingly (at least for me), Alexis de Toqueville found in his travels & commentaries that strict separation of church & state actually made for a more flourishing religious scene.
17 - Bryan McKay
[...] Alexis de Toqueville found in his travels & commentaries that strict separation of church & state actually made for a more flourishing religious scene.
This is interesting, and not all too surprising, really. I think what most Christians who battle against the wall of separation seem to forget is that interaction between Church and State can go both ways. The Church may infiltrate the State to some extent (Ten Commandments in Court Houses, prayer in school, etc.) but the State can also declare official State-sanctioned religions and ban the practice of those they disagree with. It seems to me that it would be worth giving up the whole Ten-Commandments-in-the-Courthouse battle in favor of complete relgious freedom, but then what do I know?
18 - John Bambenek
No Christian I know is battling against the wall. We'd just like to be able to practice our religion.
For instance, many schools ban KIDS from having Bible studies and such. That's not state endorsement, that's individual action.
I'd like school vouchers, not because I want to fund religious schools, but because I'd like the freedom to choose what school I want to send my kids.
We come from a Judeo-Christian heritage. Our entire jurisprudence comes from that. It's evolved a long way, sure, but there are still portions of law that are taken almost verbatim out of Catholic texts. Judges were black robes because of that influence and the fact that most judges tended to be clerics back then.
Is the Republic going to collapse because of a 10 Commandments display which is out of all THREE of the major monotheistic religions?
19 - Aaman
You might come from a Judeo-Christian heritage - I don't - are you saying you're a true American, and I'm not?
The Republic has collapsed - it's an Empire - didn't you watch Episode III?:)
20 - Steve S
For instance, many schools ban KIDS from having Bible studies and such. That's not state endorsement, that's individual action.
It is funny how we can say, 'no religious groups doing their thing on publicly funded property and on the public dime' and the athiests get it. The Jewish people get it. Muslims get it. Buddhists get it. EVERYBODY gets it but Christians who say 'our faith is under attack! We cannot pray in publicly funded areas, we are being persecuted!'
(and this is NOT being sarcastic but deadly serious).
Kids are not having their faith supressed because they cannot pray in room 101 after school. They can go to the park and all sit under a shady tree and be even closer to God that way. Think about it. Duh.
Not all Christians, but there are clearly millions of them who are just nutjobs.
21 - Bryan McKay
No Christian I know is battling against the wall.
Look at the title of your post:
Separation of Church and State an Invention of the KKK
This looks pretty much like an attempt to discredit or defame the Separation of Church and State doctrine to me. If that's not "battling the wall," I'm not sure what is. I have no problem with you practicing your religion. I also have no problem with you doing it in school. I think if schools are seriously banning kids from having Bible studies like you're claiming, that's wrong and should be stopped. My high school had a Christian group which was recognized by the school - it had a photo in the yearbook and everything - and I come from what would probably be considered a relatively liberal New England suburb. This same school, however, has no place putting up the Ten Commandments on the wall. It may not cause the Republic to collapse, but it has no place on public property.
22 - John Bambenek
Bryan -
Let me rephrase, we aren't trying to get rid of the wall and establish a theocracy much like some people seem to think.
And it depends on why the 10 commandments are up there... as a teaching tool, probably not so good. But that's why I think school choice solves that problem. You get a voucher, go wherever you want. Want a Christian-influenced school, that's fine. Want a school that's secular, that's fine too. Then all the bitching back and forth stops.
Aaman -
This country was founded on those influences. That's not to say we were founded on the Bible, but to pretend that there is no connection with Christianity and our culture is absurd. Do you work on Dec 25th? No? It isn't some winter god pagan holiday we celebrate.
Steve -
Apparently you haven't read the First Amendment... what part of the Amendment suggests the government has the authority to suppress the time and place people can practice their religion?
23 - Silas Kain
With all due respect, John:
No Christian I know is battling against the wall. We'd just like to be able to practice our religion.
Christians are free to practice their religion. Then the envelope gets pushed when one tries to outdo the other. I think that this supposed battle to eradicate God for all things secular would somehow lose its fire if all sides used a little common sense.
For instance, many schools ban KIDS from having Bible studies and such. That's not state endorsement, that's individual action. I'd like school vouchers, not because I want to fund religious schools, but because I'd like the freedom to choose what school I want to send my kids.
I don't see a problem with kids having a Bible study class on their own time on school property so long as all children are allowed to have some type of time to do the same with respect to their own religion.
I also believe strongly in a parent's right to choose what school their child shall attend. That being said, however, I do not agree that parents should be reimbursed for having the good fortune to send their child to a private school. Public education is guaranteed for all children regardless of race, class, etc. Once a school district takes away from the public sector to assist a parent in sending their child to a private school, those families who are not in an economic position to make these decisions suffer. There has to be a level playing field. That's fairness. That's common sense.
As I noted in my post about Senator Santorum, he had his children cyber schooled at a cost of $70,000 to the local school district. That's the salary of a good teacher. That's a lot of school supplies. That's not fair to those who are unable to have the blessings he has. When you hear a politician talk about no child left behind or changing the education system, take a look where their children are schooled. It is the right of a parent to decide where his/her child should go to school. But it is also the right of the electorate to know what decisions candidates make with regard to their own family. Senator Santorum opened Pandora's box, it's time Pennsylvanians answered him at the ballot box.
We come from a Judeo-Christian heritage. Our entire jurisprudence comes from that. It's evolved a long way, sure, but there are still portions of law that are taken almost verbatim out of Catholic texts. Judges were black robes because of that influence and the fact that most judges tended to be clerics back then.
Our jurisprudence is an amalgam of religion, religious revolt and a movement toward secularism. What fundamentalists are trying to do is turn back the hands of time to the 1600's. This is a dangerous approach. Our soldiers are dying every day in a land where religious freedom is not enjoyed. To try and inflict religion on Americans is a direct rebuke of those fine men and women. Catholicism's role in the development of English Law is subject to debate. The Magna Carta was forged because of opressive royal rule and a Vatican that was totally corrupt. The founding fathers were not papists so they had a vested interest in assuring that the Church would have no formal role in government. You see, John, the founding fathers didn't suffer from sound bytes and short memories. They were still feeling the effects of an oppressive Church and royal Court.
There are those Americans who insist on calling America a Christian Nation. I suggest that these people look toward Scripture to prove their contention. A country founded by extermination of natives, exploitation of slaves and a lust for greed is more the handy work of Satan than Christ. It's time all of us, myself included, stepped down from the pulpit and started doing those things we need to do to put this country back on track.
Is the Republic going to collapse because of a 10 Commandments display which is out of all THREE of the major monotheistic religions?
No the republic won't collapse over a bas relief on the walls of the Supreme Court. Our collapse will come about from something much simpler -- our own false sense of entitlement.
24 - John Bambenek
There is a difference between paying for any private school and school vouchers. Public schools would get the amount of the voucher like anyone else. But that amount is a fixed amount so if you want to send you kids to a posh school, you can.
But the point is public schools do teach things that are at odds with what parents want, and there is CONSTANT fighting in almost every school in this country because some people simply don't have a choice but to fight the schools if they don't like what they are doing.
Inner city schools are horrendously pisspoor. Those families can't afford anything else without working 3 jobs. Many will do just that to avoid writing off their kids to imbecility because the schools refuse to teach.
25 - Steve S
what part of the Amendment suggests the government has the authority to suppress the time and place people can practice their religion?
what part of the entire American ideology says that I have to spend my taxpayer dollars for you to further your religion and feel closer to God?