Is Senator Obama a new kind of politician, delivering change we can believe in, or is he just yet another partisan politician, delivering politics as usual?
There are a few stories circulating about Senator Barack Obama, and you've probably heard at least one of them. Perhaps you've received a few via email.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Andy Marsh
Phillip - I've seen that version on that web site. But I've also seen a few other certificates from Hawaii, that show a signature and a stamp, neither of which is visible on that particular picture, or any other pic of his birth certificate.
I just don't get it...if it is crap, then show a good one! It's like the swiftboat thing...all Kerry had to do was sign the SF-180 and he wouldn't do it. All Obama has to do is produce the real one, with a stamp and he won't! For someone that's supposed to be so intelligent, this seems pretty moronic.
I mean, I don't want to sound partisan here, but are democrats that fucking stupid? Or is it, like I read on one site, just a way to deflect from real issues that could sink him?
77 - Clavos
Snopes unequivocally states that:
"...no evidence supports a claim that Obama is currently, or ever has been, a Muslim (radical or otherwise)."
(I hate it that Snopes won't allow you to copy-and-paste; one has to transcribe from their site manually. What a PITA.)
78 - RJ Elliott
When Obama first appeared on the national scene, I was strongly attracted to him because of his obvious intelligence, his poise, his speaking ability, and his charisma.
His much-celebrated speaking ability, poise, and intelligence seem to almost completely disappear when you remove the teleprompter and ask him a difficult question.
After reading everything on his web site in search of his positions on the issues, I cooled a little, because he's obviously left of center, and I'm not, except in social issues.
He's more than left-of-center, at least in terms of his voting record (such as it is). He was judged to be the most far-left Senator in the entire US Senate in 2007, according to the nonpartisan and highly-respected National Journal magazine. That would more him more liberal than Teddy Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, John Kerry, Russ Feingold, and even the admitted-socialist Bernie Sanders.
I also have concerns about his lack of experience, especially as revealed in some of his comments about international affairs.
I think it's fair to say that he is the least-experienced major-party presidential candidate in my lifetime. Wait, make that my parents' lifetime. (I would be happy to run down the list, if anyone would dispute that.)
I've never voted anything but Republican at presidential level, and I'm still undecided about this race, but I like the shift towards the center that Obama has undertaken recently.
So, you are considering rewarding his flip-flopping (a.k.a. dishonesty about what he stands for, what his positions are, what his policies will be, what his core values are, etc.) with your vote? ;-)
79 - Dr Dreadful
Andy, in my job I see birth certificates all the time. Some are filled out with minute detail and more stamps than a philatelists' convention, and... some aren't. It all depends how lazy the registrar was feeling on that particular day.
Besides which, if you look closely you can make out a stamp about two-thirds of the way down. It's very faint, but it's there. Why it's so faint, goodness only knows. Perhaps the clerk couldn't be assed to re-ink his/her stamp.
80 - Phillip Winn
Andy, I'm a little curious. Let's pretend that's not Senator Obama's birth certificate. (It is, but we'll pretend.) What do you think that would mean, exactly? His father is someone worse? He's not an American? What?
All questions have answers. Most conspiracy theories are long on questions but short on answers. If you don't accept what to most people is the obvious answer, what's your alternative answer?
81 - Clavos
Andy,
It doesn't matter.
The State Department has issued him a passport, has it not?
He's a citizen; he was born in a US state; but regardless of where he was born, his mother was a citizen at the time of his birth. Although SCOTUS has ruked that those born of an American father and foreign mother must resolve paternity before age 18, they have never put conditions (for obvious reasons) on those born abroad of an American mother.
George Romney was born in Mexico;, as I was; both of us are citizens, eligible to run for the presidency; so is Obama.
82 - Jamal
White fool...
Obama is a proud black man who for the past twenty years understands his tasks at hand! Once he is in the Whitehouse the teaching of the great Reverend Wright will come to fruition..
BAs the Reverend preached to Obama.."We will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal."
These are the answered prayers for all of us who have been kept down all these generations by the white devil...
Jamal
83 - RJ Elliott
RJ: "Yet all the tut-tutting seems to be reserved for the Obama critics." I don't know if you've noticed, but you just posted your comment to an article that most people would identify as criticism of Senator Obama.
Oops!
Huh? I think we must be talking past each other. I didn't say your article wasn't critical of Obama. The context that quote of mine was taken from was about critics of Obama's past, personal life, and associations; i.e. people who criticize him for reasons other than "the issues." Whenever someone does so (even in a purely fact-based manner; see comment #24, for example) they are usually pounced upon as being hateful liars who are beneath contempt. But harsh critics of McCain (or Hillary, or Bush...or really anybody but Obama) are given dissimilar treatment.
If you believe that two wrongs somehow cancel each other out, then we simply disagree, and that's all there is to that.
Well, if your opponent is going to sling mud at you, and that mud-slinging is effective (and it almost always is), and you refuse to return some mud of your own, you're very likely going to lose. That's politics. That's why you almost never hear about guys who take "the high road." It's not that they don't exist; it's just that they don't get very far in politics. They're stuck at the city council level somewhere, while a more ruthless candidate is enjoying being called "Congressman."
If you believe that ensuring that every knows that Senator Obama's middle name is the same as the former Iraqi dictator's last name is somehow important, then we simply disagree, and that's all there is to that.
That was about the least relevant (IMO) thing on that list. My position is merely that such factual information should not be censored by media gatekeepers who apparently don't trust the electorate with such "dangerous" facts (and incorrectly label them as "lies"). All's fair in love, war, and politics, and if the Democrats are going to slime McCain, conservatives deserve the opportunity to point out some inconvenient facts about Mr. Obama.
Maybe you can show up on my next article criticizing Obama and complain again that nobody gets away with criticizing Obama! :-)
Again, I think we're just talking past each other, if you honestly think that's what I've been saying.
84 - Clavos
"His much-celebrated speaking ability, poise, and intelligence seem to almost completely disappear when you remove the teleprompter and ask him a difficult question."
He's still light years ahead of McCain in that regard.
"He's more than left-of-center" An erroneous comment. By definition, everything left of center is "left of center." Duh.
"So, you are considering rewarding his flip-flopping (a.k.a. dishonesty about what he stands for, what his positions are, what his policies will be, what his core values are, etc.) with your vote?"
Yup. Precisely because he's "flip-flopping." I hate politicians who 1) Don't listen to the people, 2) Are unable to admit they are mistaken and change their direction.
We're just completing 8 years of one such "politician."
85 - Clavos
Doc, Chris,
Have you investigated the possibility that "jamal" could be someone else?
86 - Phillip Winn
RJ (#83) There's a world of difference between refuting false statements and making false statements of your own.
Feel free to meet every bit of mud slung at Senator McCain with a factual refutation, but slinging mud back just to even the score is... well, I'm just not interested. It's part of the problem.
- Phillip Hussein Winn
87 - RJ Elliott
Snopes unequivocally states that:
"...no evidence supports a claim that Obama is currently, or ever has been, a Muslim (radical or otherwise)."
Well, then snopes is factually incorrect.
I believe that when you have two of Obama's former teachers from Indonesia stating unequivocally that he was registered in the country as a Muslim is SOME evidence, no?
Also, his friends from Indonesia stating that he prayed to Allah at the local mosque regularly is SOME evidence, correct?
Is snopes infallible or something? Did the guy who wrote the LA Times article just make everything up? Where all the people quoted in the article lying? Or is it possible that Obama is denying it for obvious political purposes, and that a pliant media is happy to oblige?
(The LA Times article was written before Obama became the favorite of the left and the front-runner for the Democrat nomination. I highly doubt the LA Times would publish such an article today.)
But, all of that aside, did comment #24 state anywhere that "Obama is a Muslim" or even that "Obama WAS a Muslim" ??? (Correct answer: No.)
88 - Dr Dreadful
Clav: yes, I see what you mean...
All I can tell you for sure is that each of 'Jamal''s comments has been posted from a different IP address.
I'll keep watching...
89 - Jamal
Clavos..who are you to gang up on a brother speaking the truth? Is is because I am a black man giving the "scared" white folk my opinion?
Another sad attempt to keep the black man in his place!
Jamal
90 - RJ Elliott
Actually, "Jamal" is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He's clearly an anti-White black nationalist Obama supporter. He hasn't made a cogent argument yet. But he's been treated with kid gloves on here.
AMABO and AmericaIsScrewed, on the other hand, made valid, factual points about Obama (backed by sources), and yet were insulted and personally attacked by at least three of the writers here almost immediately.
91 - Dr Dreadful
He's clearly an anti-White black nationalist Obama supporter.
RJ, if 'Jamal' is who I think he is, then he is the exact opposite of what you describe...
92 - Phillip Winn
RJ, Jamal has been ignored, as he has made no appeal to anything rational. The others have given indication of being based in rationality, and so merited responses.
I think I'm about done with that, though.
- Phillip Hussein Winn
93 - Clavos
"He's clearly an anti-White black nationalist Obama supporter."
Or (what I think) an impostor; maybe even one named JOM.
94 - RJ Elliott
"His much-celebrated speaking ability, poise, and intelligence seem to almost completely disappear when you remove the teleprompter and ask him a difficult question."
He's still light years ahead of McCain in that regard.
Then why does McCain want to have ten town hall debates, and Obama is ducking them?
"He's more than left-of-center" An erroneous comment. By definition, everything left of center is "left of center." Duh.
Cute. Let me rephrase: He's more than JUST left-of-center. Left-of-center implies (to me, at least) someone who is a little bit liberal. But judging by his (very limited) voting record, a more accurate description would be "far-left." The National Journal apparently agrees.
"So, you are considering rewarding his flip-flopping (a.k.a. dishonesty about what he stands for, what his positions are, what his policies will be, what his core values are, etc.) with your vote?"
Yup. Precisely because he's "flip-flopping." I hate politicians who 1) Don't listen to the people, 2) Are unable to admit they are mistaken and change their direction.
The problem with this, of course, is that it may not be a matter of "I have seen the light!" (in fact, does anybody seriously believe that's what his recent move to the center is about?); it may simply be a matter of "I'll pretend to be a left-winger in the Democrat primaries and caucuses in order to fool enough people to win the nomination, and then I'll pretend to be a moderate in the general election in order to fool enough people to win in November."
Has anybody heard Obama say "I was wrong. I've changed my mind on this issue. The people have spoken." Or anything similar?
95 - Jamal
Here is the greatest example of what Obama is going through. Everytime he opens his mouth the media questions him because he is a black man...he cant be smart..must be affirmative action...he cant be a great speaker...must be the teleprompter.
I simply post a black man's opinions and the white boys in here say 'Jamal cant be Jamal, he must be someone else".
Jamal
96 - RJ Elliott
There's a world of difference between refuting false statements and making false statements of your own.
[shakes head] "There you go again."
What "false statements?" I'm talking about TRUE statements that you continue to label as "lies."
And again, it's Politics 101 - If you spend all your time squashing rumors about yourself while "taking the high road" and refusing to return fire at your opponent, you are very likely to lose. Ask President Dukakis.
Feel free to meet every bit of mud slung at Senator McCain with a factual refutation, but slinging mud back just to even the score is... well, I'm just not interested. It's part of the problem.
Yes, I'm sure butter would never melt in your mouth.
- Phillip Hussein Winn
Unless your middle name really is Hussein, that would be factually inaccurate. However, Barack Obama's middle name really is Hussein, so stating so is true. See the difference? ;-)
97 - Clavos
Jamal,
Explain why you are posting from multiple computers?
98 - Clavos
"Well, then snopes is factually incorrect.
I believe that when you have two of Obama's former teachers from Indonesia stating unequivocally that he was registered in the country as a Muslim is SOME evidence, no?
Also, his friends from Indonesia stating that he prayed to Allah at the local mosque regularly is SOME evidence, correct?"
Purely anecdotal evidence, which is notoriously unreliable. Ask any cop who has every taken statements from witnesses at a crime or accident scene.
"Is snopes infallible or something?"
Since the whole point of snopes is to debunk falsehoods, and because it has a reputation for accuracy and truth, I accept its version of issues in dispute, as do millions of others. I have no idea whether it's infallible or not, but I've never heard of them being proven wrong.
99 - Jamal
I am in a public liberry. And I am not a Computer expert...why are you questioning me and not others posting comments here?
Is it because I am not following your "rules" - I am, is it because you dont agree with me obviously you dont or is it BECAUSE I AM BLACK?
Jamal
100 - Clavos
RJ,
I submit that you choose to believe in Obama's being Muslim because you want to, as much as anything else.
By believing it and convincing others of its truth, you have what you perceive to be as a powerful weapon against him as a candidate.
Do you think that if the "radical Muslims" wanted to insert a Muslim as POTUS they would be so stupid as to put a black man with some (however tangential) contacts with Islam in his past as their candidate?
Wouldn't it make more sense to put up a white candidate with, say, a Methodist background?
101 - Clavos
Actually, jamal, you're not black, white, or anything else to us; you're just pixels on a screen.
And just because you're in a liberry doesn't mean you have to jump from computer to computer.
102 - Jamal
Whats with the people in here? Rather than challege my opinion you attack me on where I am sitting?
Admit it its because of my color and not my opinions...its too obvious
Jamal
103 - RJ Elliott
Purely anecdotal evidence, which is notoriously unreliable. Ask any cop who has every taken statements from witnesses at a crime or accident scene.
But good enough to be admissible in court!
"Is snopes infallible or something?"
Since the whole point of snopes is to debunk falsehoods, and because it has a reputation for accuracy and truth, I accept its version of issues in dispute, as do millions of others. I have no idea whether it's infallible or not, but I've never heard of them being proven wrong.
I think I just did!
Anecdotal evidence from at least four different people who knew Obama (both teachers and classmates), claiming that he was a) registered as a Muslim in Indonesia, and b) prayed to Allah at the local mosque, is certainly SOME evidence. (Note: "evidence" does not mean "proof.") Yet the claim on snopes is that "no evidence" supports the claim that he was ever a Muslim. "Some evidence" and "no evidence" are mutually exclusive. The LA Times article counts as evidence, to me.
Of course, one could make the argument that merely being "registered" as a Muslim and occasionally praying to Allah at a mosque doesn't make one an official Muslim, especially when this was done as a child.
104 - Clavos
"Admit it its because of my color and not my opinions...its too obvious
Jamal"
No, jamal. I don't know what your "color" is; I only know what you say it is.
No the same thing.
105 - RJ Elliott
I submit that you choose to believe in Obama's being Muslim because you want to, as much as anything else.
When did I ever say that I think he IS a Muslim???
By believing it and convincing others of its truth, you have what you perceive to be as a powerful weapon against him as a candidate.
I believe the facts should be presented to the people, who can do with them what they will. I don't believe the media should censor facts in order to protect the people (or a favored candidate?) from them.
Do you think that if the "radical Muslims" wanted to insert a Muslim as POTUS they would be so stupid as to put a black man with some (however tangential) contacts with Islam in his past as their candidate?
Why do you think that I believe he is currently a radical Muslim terrorist? Have I ever said that was my belief? In fact, I do not believe that.
Wouldn't it make more sense to put up a white candidate with, say, a Methodist background?
How many White Methodists have ever been recruited by al-Qaeda? Aren't most members of al-Qaeda, you know, Muslims?
But, obviously, I don't think Obama is a terrorist ringer or anything. Some people probably do. Oh, well. Some people think McCain is a war criminal. Some people are going to vote for Obama just because he's black. Others are going to vote against him just because he's black. Every individual voter is allowed to vote for or against whoever they want for whatever reason they want. The only control I have is over my own vote.
106 - Clavos
"Purely anecdotal evidence, which is notoriously unreliable. Ask any cop who has every taken statements from witnesses at a crime or accident scene.
But good enough to be admissible in court!"
Only when supported.
"Since the whole point of snopes is to debunk falsehoods, and because it has a reputation for accuracy and truth, I accept its version of issues in dispute, as do millions of others. I have no idea whether it's infallible or not, but I've never heard of them being proven wrong.
I think I just did!"
I don't think so. Unsupported anecdotal evidence neither proves nor disproves anything, and increasing the numbers of those relating the anecdote does nothing for its credibility in the absence of other evidence.
107 - Clavos
Gotta go get the oil changed in my un-PC gas hog truck.
Catch ya later, RJ.
Enjoyed the debate!
108 - Lee Richards
Obama is not a Muslim, but if he were it should make no difference to anyone who believes in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
There is no religious qualification for office here. Those who think there should be want to be little tin gods themselves.
George Bush isn't a Muslim either, but his Christian God has certainly led him to embrace some unholy ideas.
Someone asked in an earlier comment what might be considered unpatriotic, if not neglecting to put your hand over your heart at a time of THEIR choosing. That's what I consider unpatriotic: some lard-brain crypto-Joe McCarthy telling me when, where and how I've got to display my feelings for my country, or else THEY will judge and punish me.
That's truly anti-American.
109 - Bennett
Phillip (#55), yeah you're right. I have no problem visualizing ROOMS full of goofs of every stripe posting whatever boilerplate is put in front of them. I've just seen more of it directed at Senator Obama than at Senator McCain.
P.S. I like your middle name, it has a nice ring to it.
110 - Leigh
Hi Phillip,
Thanks for changing that paragraph. Now I have to be held accountable and read the whole article.
I believe the idea of Mr. Obama's politics as usual. It is why I voted for Mrs. Clinton. Of course maybe it's all politics as usual. You are dead on with the public campaign financing flip flop. I guess it shows that he may do anything to win. Your article has some good points but it's a little depressing. I am glad to see so many young people with hope for a new future for the US of A !! Thanks.... PS....I am not a Media Class instructor but I play one on TV.
111 - bliffle
Obamas recent swing to the right is starting to sound like an echo instead of a choice. He may lose some of his enthusiastic supporters.
Arianna Huffpost
I, for one, have a hard time understanding why everyone piled on Wes Clark for stating a simple truth: having been a POW gives one no special quality for being POTUS.
112 - Clavos
"Obamas recent swing to the right is starting to sound like an echo instead of a choice. He may lose some of his enthusiastic supporters."
I agree.
113 - Phillip Winn
Lee (#108), of course it should make no difference whether a candidate is Muslim, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Atheist, or anything else, but it always has, and will continue to do so for some time, I imagine. The beauty of the U.S. Constitution, I think, is that holds up a standard to which we aspire, even as we see that we've fallen short for 200+ years so far.
Thanks for your comment!
114 - bliffle
Ack! I screwed up the last post by not previewing it.
115 - Phillip Winn
Bennett (#109), I get emails from some official organizations related (some tangentially) to the Democratic party, so I see daily attacks on Senator McCain as well. But from the rank-and-file, yes, I've definitely seen more email garbage aimed at Senator Obama. That could just be because I know more Republicans than I do Democrats; I'm not sure.
Thanks!
116 - Phillip Winn
Leigh (#110) I appreciate you coming back!
Yes, it can be slightly depressing to realize we have the same choices we always have. I tend to be a realist, so I see that the glass really is half empty! :-)
It can also be exciting to think about the fact that we get to pick a new direction for our country every four years, even if the change is relatively small. There are differences between the candidates, even though that wasn't the subject of this article.
The thing I like most about Senator Obama is how excited young people are to vote for him! It turns out that little motivates young people to vote like an unpopular war. I do fear that might lead to widespread frustration when President Obama is unable to deliver on the hopes people have for him. I hope that Jamal, for example, will stick with the process and not lose faith.
Thanks!
117 - Phillip Winn
Bliffle (#111) I fixed the comment problem -- you were missing the closing quote on your URL.
I think that the subject of my next article may be the differences between the Senators and the candidates. I'm not sure whether I should address both together, as McCain sprints toward the right and Obama toward the center, or write one article on each. I guess we'll see how the research goes!
I'll leave Clark's comments for another time except to say this: whether one agrees or disagrees with Clark now, it's interesting to note that he felt quite differently when he was running for the nomination himself, based primarily on his military background!
Thanks!
118 - RJ Elliott
Interesting analysis of McCain's ACU rating:
Senator John McCain's lifetime rating of 82.3% from the American Conservative Union is often cited as proof that he is conservative. Here is a closer look at that 82.3 rating.
First, a rating of 82.3 is not really that high. It puts Senator McCain in 39th place among senators serving in 2006, the latest year for which the ACU has its ratings posted online. For that most recent year in particular, McCain scored only 65, putting him in 47th place for that year. Ben Nelson (D-NE) and Chuck Hagel (R-NE), for example, scored 64 and 75, respectively, in 2006.
Generally, McCain has voted less conservatively in more recent years. His average for 1990-97 was 88, but was only 74 for 1998-2006.
[...]
What this means is that McCain's ACU ratings since 1998 put him on the liberal side among Republicans. The few Republicans consistently more liberal than McCain would be Chafee (formerly R-RI), Collins (R-ME), Snowe (R-ME) and Specter (R-PA). One could expect senators from northeastern states to be more liberal since their constituencies demand it, but McCain represents the fairly conservative state of Arizona. (Arizona's other senator, Kyl, has a lifetime rating of 96.9, and half the representatives from there have ratings of 94.7 or higher.)
How much more liberal would McCain vote if his constituency put even the slightest pressure on him in that direction?
119 - Phillip Winn
RJ (#118) You're right, Senator McCain isn't your man. Vote for Senator Obama instead. :-)
120 - Dr Dreadful
@ #112:
I agree also. It bothers me that despite their deep unpopularity in the country, conservatives are still being allowed to dictate the political agenda.
McCain panders only minimally, and what little he does is to please the right rather than the left.
Right now, Obama has the election nailed and he shouldn't need to compromise his principles or his platform for the benefit of a few shrill but petty critics.
121 - Bennett
I heard Gen. Clark being grilled on NPR about the issue. He tried to explain the difference between his touting Kerry's military experience (and his) back in '04, vs. his comment about Senator McCain's war experience.
He did 'okay' with it. Something about "commanding" troops versus simply being a fighter pilot who was shot down and held as a POW.
Still, he did emphasize his deep respect for McCain, but restated that McCain's war experiences did not "of themselves" make the Senator the best pick for the office of President this go-round.
I agree with the good Doctor, what's the fuss all about? It's true.
122 - Baronius
"McCain panders only minimally, and what little he does is to please the right rather than the left."
Dread, are you sure? 'cause I'm over here on the right, and I'm not feeling particularly pandered to. McCain preaches environmentalism, and blames the current economic distress on corporate greed. His "number one priority" is an immigration plan that's hardly appealing to the right. He brags about his bipartisanship constantly. About the only pandering he's done to the right is his promise to appoint strict constructionist judges.
123 - Clavos
"I agree also. It bothers me that despite their deep unpopularity in the country, conservatives are still being allowed to dictate the political agenda."
Doc, here I think you're confusing conservatives with the Bush bunch, who have managed to violate most of the basic tenets of conservatism during their tenure.
I know they consider themselves conservatives, but most conservatives don't anymore, even though many of us thought they would be at one time.
There are still a LOT of (mostly disaffected) conservative voters who realize that what we got with the BB wasn't "bad" conservatism; it wasn't conservatism at all, and I think they'll likely choose McCain over Obama.
124 - bliffle
What we got with the BB was NOT conservatism (some say it wasn't even Americanism) but Royalism.
125 - Clavos
Well put, bliffle.