Is Senator Obama a new kind of politician, delivering change we can believe in, or is he just yet another partisan politician, delivering politics as usual?
There are a few stories circulating about Senator Barack Obama, and you've probably heard at least one of them. Perhaps you've received a few via email.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - AMABO
EWO (#19), that's the kind of stuff that I consider nonsense. It's relatively easy to pull images and events out of context to make someone look bad.
Please, don't believe the nonsense.
******You called it "nonsense" twice. Yet there is photographic proof of it (indeed, it's also on video). And the snopes article you linked to stated that the claim was TRUE. I guess you have an interesting definition of the word "nonsense" is all I can say!******
27 - Dr Dreadful
The default position, what the vast majority of people do during the national anthem/pledge of allegiance, is to place their hands over their hearts.
A strange American custom which, if you watch when the national anthems are played at international soccer matches and Olympic medal ceremonies, almost no other nationalities follow. There's no law that says you have to put your hand over your heart and trying to portray someone as unpatriotic for not doing so is, quite frankly, pathetic.
You don't even understand the meaning of this quote, do you? It doesn't mean that all patriots are a bunch of scoundrels...
I think we all understand the quote a lot better than you do. You appear to be living it.
Everybody who doesn't volunteer at a VA hospital is unpatriotic, BUT placing your hand on your crotch during the national anthem/pledge of allegiance isn't at all indicative of a lack of patriotism. Does that about sum your view up?
Volunteering is practical. Any idiot can put their hand on their chest. That's the difference.
I would imagine you are also one of those folks who gets upset when someone doesn't take down the flag in their yard at night, has a conniption if someone criticizes the president*, and would disown your own mother if it turned out she didn't know all the words to 'God Bless America'...
* Unless it's a Democratic president, of course.
28 - Dr Dreadful
In my capacity as Assistant Comments Editor, I have deleted a couple of chain e-mail type anti-Obama comments from this thread. They add nothing to the discussion here and would, if they were allowed to remain, be an embarrassment to the site.
For those who might be interested, however, they can be found on any number of conservative websites or by Googling the following phrases:
"As your future President, I want to thank my supporters for your mindless support of me"...
"WE HAVE SEEN PICTURES OF HIS AFRICAN FAMILY"...
To all commenters: please try to restrict your commenting to your original thoughts, if you have any.
Thank you.
29 - AmericaIsScrewed
'A strange American custom which, if you watch when the national anthems are played at international soccer matches and Olympic medal ceremonies, almost no other nationalities follow. There's no law that says you have to put your hand over your heart and trying to portray someone as unpatriotic for not doing so is, quite frankly, pathetic.'
There's no law, no. I don't think anybody suggested that there was, either. Way to attack a strawman!
You still haven't explained why he wouldn't do it. It doesn't take much effort to place your hand over your heart for a couple minutes during the national anthem. Pretty much everyone else does it (at least in the United States; I understand that Europeans and Canadians are post-patriotic, self-loathing socialists).
It's downright abnormal for a major politician to refuse to place his/her hand on his/her heart during the national anthem. So why did Barack Obama take this unusual step? Doesn't he feel the normal love and affection for his country that most Americans do? Is he so naive and clueless and inexperienced that he didn't understand that this would offend some people?
Will be bother to salute back to the troops when they salute him, should be become Commander In Chief? Or is that just another silly, stupid, meaningless little tradition that he won't bother with, and only right-wing crazies will dare to mention?
'I think we all understand the quote a lot better than you do. You appear to be living it.'
Is this how you debate people? With personal attacks? Is that the best you can do?
Do you honestly believe that Samuel Johnson's quote was meant to suggest that all patriots are scoundrels? Is that your position?
Here's a website about Samuel Johnson that briefly discusses the meaning of the quote: "Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism."
Does that make Obama a false patriot, now that he's wearing a flag pin on his lapel again, after having received criticism for not wearing it? Maybe Samuel Johnson was talking about people like Obama!
'Volunteering is practical. Any idiot can put their hand on their chest. That's the difference.'
You're actually making the point for those you disagree with.
Volunteering takes a lot of effort. Most people have busy lives and aren't going to take time out of their day to volunteer. I don't think that makes them all a bunch of unpatriotic jerks, though.
HOWEVER, placing your hand on your heart takes essentially zero effort. Anybody can do it, and the overwhelming majority of people have no problem doing it. That's why it's so bizarre that Obama would refuse to do so. That's why it's so inexplicable. That's why a lot of people are questioning his patriotism.
If he won't even lift his hand in a simple sin of respect for his country, will be bother to do the really difficult things for his country?
'I would imagine you are also one of those folks who gets upset when someone doesn't take down the flag in their yard at night, has a conniption if someone criticizes the president, and would disown your own mother if it turned out she didn't know all the words to 'God Bless America'...'
You're certainly full of assumptions...or at least full of something! =}
30 - AmericaIsScrewed
'We will choose between a left-wing politician and a right-wing politician.'
No, we will choose between an inexperienced leftist and a moderate war hero. The only "right-wing politician" in the race is (arguably) Bob Barr.
31 - AmericaIsScrewed
When Obama brags about being a "community organizer" what does he mean by that?
"[Obama] cut his ideological teeth working with ACORN as a "community organizer" and legal representative."
[AIS, it would help readers a great deal if you would please provide your references as properly-formatted HTML links. If you're not sure how to do that, there's a brief but good tutorial here. Thanks - Assistant Comments Editor]
"Last July, ACORN settled the largest case of voter fraud in the history of Washington State. Seven ACORN workers had submitted nearly 2,000 bogus voter-registration forms. According to case records, they flipped through phone books for names to use on the forms, including "Leon Spinks," "Frekkie Magoal" and "Fruto Boy Crispila.""
"ACORN has been implicated in similar voter-fraud schemes in Missouri, Ohio, and at least 12 other states. The Wall Street Journal noted: "In Ohio in 2004, a worker for one affiliate was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and pillars of the community named Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey."
So, in Obama's youth, he was doing cocaine and working for a corrupt organization that is notorious for voter fraud - and doing so in Cook County!
That's the New Politics of Hope and Change!
By the way, Obama admitted to doing cocaine in his 20s, but did he ever specify if it was powder or rock form? In other words, was Obama a crack-head?
32 - Dr Dreadful
I don't know why he didn't put his hand over his heart and quite frankly, like Clavos, I don't care. It's unimportant. For that matter, it doesn't take much effort not to do it, either.
And it's not abnormal, just unusual.
I say it shows independence of thought - not just robotically doing it because it's what everybody does.
I imagine he's now wearing a flag lapel pin in the hope that people like you will finally stop constantly bugging him about it.
My dig about the Johnson quote may have been personal, but it was not gratuitous. It was based on what I have observed of your views, which seem to hold ceremonial symbols and rituals to be of a rather unrealistic level of importance. I know perfectly well what Johnson meant, and he seems to have you in his crosshairs quite neatly.
If he won't even lift his hand in a simple sin [sic] of respect for his country, will be bother to do the really difficult things for his country?
Well, why don't you try to find out? You claim to be worried about the detrimental effect of an Obama presidency, yet instead of addressing his political positions you quibble about flag pins and salutes. Is that really the best you can do?
33 - AmericaIsScrewed
Michelle Obama's views on "Whitey".
""It is possible that Black individuals either chose to or felt pressured to come together . . . because of the belief that Blacks must join in solidarity to combat a White oppressor," she wrote."
Hilarious. A bunch of black students who are attending an elite Ivy League university (many of whom almost certainly were admitted only because of watered-down Affirmative Action admission standards) are bitching about "the White oppressor."
This is going to be our First Lady?
34 - Clavos
"You still haven't explained why he wouldn't do it."
Not going to, either. It's meaningless; the gesture AND your point.
"Here's a website about Samuel Johnson that briefly discusses the meaning of the quote: "Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.""
Exactly.
And making a big deal out of someone not placing their hand over their heart during the singing of a song is the very definition of false patriotism.
"Volunteering takes a lot of effort. Most people have busy lives and aren't going to take time out of their day to volunteer."
Again, exactly. Which is why volunteering in support of our wounded veterans at the VA hospitals is a far more meaningful and truly patriotic act than wearing a cheap, tacky (probably chinese-made) flag pin or putting your hand over your heart.
35 - AmericaIsScrewed
'Well, why don't you try to find out? You claim to be worried about the detrimental effect of an Obama presidency, yet instead of addressing his political positions you quibble about flag pins and salutes. Is that really the best you can do?'
Well, that's sort of difficult to do, since he has virtually no track record or paper trail of votes, due to his almost complete lack of political experience. And a lot of his stated positions have, shall we say, evolved over the last year or so since he began running for President.
However, from what I've seen and heard, an Obama Presidency would have the following features (although this is entirely open to further flip-flopping and revision, which would of course be totally ignored by the folks in the mainstream media, who are completely in love with him):
- Higher marginal tax rates
- Higher capital gains tax rates (even if that results is LESS government revenues)
- Immediately begin withdrawing from Iraq, regardless of the situation on the ground, and despite the fact that we are now winning there thanks to the Surge (that he opposed)
- Opposition to national missile defense
- Cuts in defense spending (especially weapons programs)
- Open borders policy (although this differs very little from McCain)
- No drilling for oil or natural gas off the Pacific coast, Atlantic coast, or in the Gulf of Mexico
- No drilling for oil or natural gas in ANWR
- No new nuclear power plants
- No reduction (temporary or permanent) in the federal gasoline tax; in fact, the Democrats in the Congress support an additional 50 cent tax on every gallon of gasoline
- Ambivalence about the meaning of the Second Amendment
- More American tax-dollars going to foreign aid
- Moving towards socialized medicine
- Talks/negotiations with Chavez, the Castro Brothers, and Ahmadinejad, without preconditions.
- Support for partial-birth abortion
- Support for activist federal judges (including Supreme Court justices)
- Increasing the ceiling on the Social Security/Medicare (FICA) Tax (which I think is actually defensible, although it completely undermines the rationale behind the payroll tax)
- Bombing Pakistan, a nuclear-armed, quasi-democratic ally
- Expanding Affirmative Action to include socio-economic status, while keeping race/ethnicity as a legitimate variable for consideration
Do I have to go on?
36 - El Bicho
"Is he so naive and clueless and inexperienced that he didn't understand that this would offend some people?"
Maybe. I know I didn't realize some people were so petty and stupid that this was an issue to them. Although I will concede that I am unaware of how a gesture that takes essentially zero effort will help the country get energy independent or fight the war on terror.
37 - El Bicho
"By the way, Obama admitted to doing cocaine in his 20s, but did he ever specify if it was powder or rock form?"
Nope, he's taking a play from Bush's handbook.
38 - AmericaIsScrewed
#32 & #34 -
I see neither of you can rationally explain why he wouldn't place his hand over his heart as a simple sign of respect during the singing of the national anthem. Instead, you'd rather kill the messenger by attacking the patriotism of the people who point it out.
Is that how you learned to debate? When you can't answer an opponent's reasonable question, you attack them personally?
Tell me, if John McCain picked his nose and scratched his ass every time the national anthem was played, do you think it would be illegitimate for the Democrats to point that out? How is grabbing your crotch any less disrespectful than that?
People who don't like to see or hear certain questions asked or certain facts pointed out love to try to shout down the folks who dare to mention the unmentionable. I wonder what you are afraid of?
39 - AmericaIsScrewed
'Again, exactly. Which is why volunteering in support of our wounded veterans at the VA hospitals is a far more meaningful and truly patriotic act than wearing a cheap, tacky (probably Chinese-made) flag pin or putting your hand over your heart.'
Yes, of course it would be more meaningful. But Obama has done neither!
If he's not going to volunteer at a VA hospital (as 99% of Americans don't either), then at the very least he could place his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem. It's a basic sign of respect for your country.
Tell me, do you guys even think it's POSSIBLE to not be patriotic? Y or N?
Do you think it's important for the leader of a country to love his/her country? Y or N?
What would a candidate have to do, in your opinion, to be considered unpatriotic? Burning the flag? Spitting on a war veteran? Bombing federal government buildings? Saying that you've never been proud of your country except really recently? Going to a church with a raving anti-American lunatic for a pastor for about two decades? What qualifies an indivudla as unpatriotic in your minds?
40 - AmericaIsScrewed
'Maybe. I know I didn't realize some people were so petty and stupid that this was an issue to them.'
Wow, ANOTHER personal attack for having a different opinion. You progressives really don't tolerate dissent very well, do you? =}
'Although I will concede that I am unaware of how a gesture that takes essentially zero effort will help the country get energy independent or fight the war on terror.'
Did somebody claim that it would? I don't recall reading that on here, and I certainly didn't write it myself. Or do you just enjoy setting up little strawmen in order to knock them down? =}
41 - AmericaIsScrewed
Let's cut the crap. Everyone knows that conservatives are more patriotic than progressives. In fact, many progressives will even admit that they find patriotism distasteful. They believe that patriotism = nationalism = jingoism = fascism = evil.
I remember reading an essay in The Nation (a left-wing magazine) that was written in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. The female writer was wringing her hands about the fact that her teenage daughter had bought an American flag decal to put on her car (if I remember correctly). And the writer was troubled about this because she openly admitted that what the flag symbolized to her was all the evils of America - slavery, war, genocide, etc.
Of course, the flag is merely a symbol of America. And if one looks at a symbol of America and automatically thinks of all kinds of awful things and zero good things, that's a pretty sure sign that the person in question doesn't particularly like the country. (Does that qualify as unpatriotic?)
The right goes to rallies in support of the troops. The left goes to rallies in opposition to the battles the troops are fighting. During these anti-war rallies, the American flag is often burned and the troops are sometimes called baby-killers and the like. (Does that qualify as unpatriotic?)
Of course, not all Democrats are "progressives" and not all progressives are unpatriotic. But only a blind fool would deny that there is a strong anti-American sentiment among the far-left.
Is it possible that Obama was signaling something to these far-left voters with his refusal to wear the flag pin on his lapel? Is it possible that he was secretly pandering to these "post-patriotic" voters when he didn't put his hand on his heart during the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem? If so, might that possibly explain why he is so strongly supported by the left-wing bloggers and the far-left activists?
The far-left makes up just a minority of all Democrats, but they are an influential and outspoken minority. They also vote in large numbers in caucuses. Didn't Obama do much better than Hillary in caucuses than in primaries?
Will any of you address any of these points? Or will you just call me stupid and a false patriot some more?
42 - AmericaIsScrewed
Did Michelle Obama get a massive raise because of her husband's job? Is this Change We Can Believe In?
STORY -
"in the list of earmarks he requested, $1 million was requested for the construction of a new hospital pavilion at the University Of Chicago. The request was put in in 2006.
You know who works for the University of Chicago Hospital?
Michelle Obama. She's vice president of community affairs.
As Byron noted, "In 2006, the Chicago Tribune reported that Mrs. Obama’s compensation at the University of Chicago Hospital, where she is a vice president for community affairs, jumped from $121,910 in 2004, just before her husband was elected to the Senate, to $316,962 in 2005, just after he took office.""
43 - Matthew T. Sussman
"There's the malicious lie-filled story that claims he's an America-hating Muslim, but that is completely untrue, and I'm tired of seeing it in my email inbox."
Then, delete it.
44 - Christopher Rose
Personally I've always thought that gesture of placing your hand on your heart during the national anthem was extremely cheesy and fake. It has nothing to do with love of one's country, it's simply meant to look "good". Totally cynical in other words.
45 - Andy Marsh
I enjoyed the artical and then started reading some of the comments. It would appear that some on this thread think we need affirmative action in presidential campaigns...it's nice that the brother up there in the previous comments is already calling the country racist, even before his boy Obama loses. What's next, Rodney King style riots when he loses in November?
CR - some people are taught in this country to place their hand on their heart during the anthem and the pledge, it's not cheesy, it's just what we're taught when we're young. Like taking off your hat for the anthem. Sort of like that cheesy way your military salutes, you know, palm up. I was taught that "we" didn't salute that way, because it indicated that we'd never lost a war. I'm pretty sure that's BS, but that doesn't make it "cheesy". Of course, for liberals, love of country is something to loathe.
And they call us bitter!
46 - Christopher Rose
Hi Andy,
I'm not convinced that Obama will lose to that doddery old dead man walking they call McCain. Is he from the family that make fast food, McCain Oven Chips and the like? I assume you get that stuff in the USA?
There is no comparison or relationship to the way that particular armies salute and something that "some people" are taught to do.
The USA has never lost a war? Try saying that in Saigon!
There's nothing wrong with loving your country - or even others too. I love England, Belgium and Spain - and the USA. That doesn't mean that gesture isn't cheesy or that I'm bitter about anything. Please try to avoid lazy stereotyping like that - it's bad for your credibility! ;-)
47 - Phillip Winn
Matthew (#43) Hee! I've deleted seven so far this year, and yet every few weeks, there I see it again. Heck, there's a variant at comment #24 above. It makes me feel sick to see it, honestly. Just disgusting.
48 - Christopher Rose
Oh yeah, and it's "article", not "artical". Didn't you learn Inglish proper?
Where's Clavos the Grammar Nazi when you need him?
49 - Christopher Rose
Phillip, I considered deleting #24 but eventually decided his obvious prejudice spoke louder than his actual words.
50 - Phillip Winn
AMABO (#26) you've made your point now. I suggest finding a new point.
I called it nonsense because I've read the entire Snopes page, not just the first paragraph. I wonder if you've read this entire article, all five pages? In addition to the single event at which Senator Obama is recorded without his hand over his heart, there are also several videos of him on that same Snopes *with* his hand over his heart, and leading the pldege of allegiance, and so on.
So it's nonsense because, as I said, it was an isolated incident which proves nothing, and he's quite willing and happy to perform whatever patriotic rituals you require.
It's also nonsense because it doesn't matter. We elect a President to make good decisions in times of crisis and to advocate for legislation we support, not to attend minor league baseball games.
If you are unhappy with Senator Obama as President, I would hope you would be unhappy because of the policies for which he advocates, not anything else. He's not a manchurian candidate, nor a Muslim ("Not that there's anything wrong with that"), nor anything else: he's an American who loves his country and thinks that a generally left-wing approach to problems is best.
Senator McCain is an America who loves his country and thinks that a generall right-wing approach to problems is best.
BTW, AmericaIsScrewed (#30), Senator McCain has an 82.4% lifetime conservative rating from the American Conservative Union. He's pretty right-wing. A willingness to work with the other party on a couple of high-profile issues doesn't make one a super-moderate.
51 - Phillip Winn
Christopher, no problem. It's an email paste job, I'm pretty sure. Very similar to some of the emails I've seen. As long as there's just one, that side of things is represented.
Too bad the author didn't even read the first two paragraphs of my article. I debated whether to even put that in, wondering whether even saying that would contribute to the problem. Would people think I was trying to subtly suggest bad things about Senator Obama? I finally decided to take that chance to proactively head off comments like, well, #24! I guess it didn't work.
52 - Andy Marsh
You know, I knew after I hit enter that I had used the wrong artical, or article as the case may be. I figured Clavos to get me, but hey, he must be sleeping still.
I've never heard of any McCain food products, but things can be very regional here. On one side of the country, mayo is made by Bestfoods, on the other side of the country it's called Hellmans. It's the same stuff, just a different name. Sort of like politicians.
I did say that I thought that the reason I was taught to salute the way I did and the way your boys do was BS and you can bet your sweet arse I know about that last "police action". I think that's how they got away with that story when I bought it up, it wasn't a war, only a police action.
I also love plenty of countries. Most of the ones I've visited in fact. Can't say how I feel about yours, I've never been there. I like the people there well enough though. I think I had the most fun in the Netherlands, but after the first coffee shop visit, the rest of my time there seemed to be in a cloud....
I'm not convinced who will win in November either. But I keep reading how all you foreigners want Obama and that's reason enough to piss all of you off and vote McCain into office!!!
But that's just me, clinging to my guns and my antipathy towards people who aren't like me. Unfotunately for me, I quit clinging to religion a long time ago....so I also cling to porn as a replacement.
53 - Phillip Winn
Andy, your "clinging to bitterness" is actually another one of those things that ends up defining a campaign, and I wish it didn't. I'm imagining an anti-Andy somewhere, dropping the c-word or references to "100 years" into conversation ironically, because doesn't it just sum up Senator McCain? I don't think it does, any more than "clinging to guns and religion" sums up Senator Obama.
Most of us are quick to summarize and label those not on our team, but we extend grace and understanding to those on our team. Perhaps it's because I'm not a reliable party voter, or perhaps it's because I felt alienated during the primary process when I feared it might actually end up a choice between Senator Clinton and Governor Romney and I might have to go with a third party again, but I find myself willing to extend that grace and understanding to both candidates this time around. It's nice!
After objective and dispassionate analysis, I do find that one candidate appeals to me more than the other on the basis of his positions, but that's just a reflect of my ideology, which leans more to one side than the other. I think both men are honorable public servants who believe in the power of government to do good.
54 - Bennett
Oh man... Are the comments by AmericaIsScrewed and AMAMBO typical of the crap that's going to fill the comments section of every political post on BC from now until November?
I visualize a room full of computers and minimum wage goofs copy/pasting right wing smears throughout the internet.
Time to find a other things to read till after the election.
55 - Phillip Winn
Bennett (#54), don't forget "doddery old dead man walking they call McCain." The crap is not entirely limited to the right wing, it seems.
56 - Andy Marsh
anti-Andy, I like that! Not sure I want to meet him, but I like it!
All I can say about the c-word is, I'm glad it's not a punishable offense, I'd be doing life, without parole if it was!!! Because I've been known to throw dumb in front of that word...and that can get you a severe ass whipping!
Honorable public servant...isn't that an oxymoron? I do agree with you though Phillip, that they do both seem to be pretty honorbale men, they just seem to have two completely different ideas of how this country should be run.
I don't follow any particular party either. I'm a registered independant and I vote based not on party, but on the ideas (and rhetoric) of whoever's running at the time.
But I also have my doubts about any candidate that comes from the "vote early vote often" part of the country that Obama hails from...I also lived in AZ for 4 years and know that every serious right winger has always hated McCain and that's reason enough for me to like him.
Go Navy!
57 - Christopher Rose
Hang on a mo there, Mr Winn. I call foul. That's a fairly accurate, albeit comedic, description...
58 - Phillip Winn
Many of the more vile descriptions of Senator Obama are technically accurate, but ungracious, just as your comment was.
Besides, I suspect Senator McCain's 93-year-old mother could kick your butt and mine. :-)
59 - Andy Marsh
My grandmother moved to AZ when I was a kid. You see, what happens is, they get kinda pretrified in the AZ sun...and live forever!!!
Wasn't it Reagan who said, "I want you to know that also I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience."?
60 - Christopher Rose
Ungracious possibly, but vile? Lighten up, dude. There is precious little grace in politics. Do you really think he is young enough or strong enough to last 8 years in one of the toughest jobs in the world?
If his mum can kick anybody's butt I'd be very impressed...
61 - Andy Marsh
CR - I know you'r aware of this, but I thought it worth pointing out anyway, we only elect presidents for four years in this country.
62 - Christopher Rose
Yeah, I did know. So you see McCain as a placeholder 'til the Republicans come up with a better candidate, is that it?
63 - Andy Marsh
I see EVERY president as a place holder until the one I really want comes along. Don't ask, I have no clue who he or she is! Knowing the way that candidates are vetted, I know it's not me!
64 - RJ Elliott
I've deleted seven so far this year, and yet every few weeks, there I see it again. Heck, there's a variant at comment #24 above. It makes me feel sick to see it, honestly. Just disgusting.
It seems to me that the comment you're referring to has citations that back up the claims. What's so disgusting about facts?
65 - Clavos
OK Swabby, I'm awake now:
#56: It's independent, not "independant."
#61: It's you're, not "you'r," though you do get props for the apostrophe.
You're welcome.
Clavos the Grunt, aka The Grammar (and Spelling) Nazi
66 - Phillip Winn
RJ (#64), let's start at the beginning of my article, at the top of the page. There's a link there in the second paragraph. The words "completely untrue" link to a Snopes.com page which dismantles the most common email about Senator Obama, which covers most of the false claims made above. Other Snopes pages dismantle the other claims.
A person can't help their middle name, who their father is, or what their family members think. I can't, you can't, Senator Obama can't. What isn't completely false in that comment is irrelevant.
Either you agree with Senator Obama's positions on the issues, or you don't. Therefore either vote for him, or don't. This other stuff, though, it's just ugliness.
67 - RJ Elliott
Phillip,
I have no idea what sort of emails you are receiving. I don't know if they contain lies or not.
But I do know that what was written in comment #24 is factually true. Check the links yourself. Most of this stuff has been common knowledge among conservative bloggers for months now.
As for whether it's "relevant" or not, that's up for individual voters to decide, not a bunch of politically correct gatekeepers in the "objective" media.
I don't think stating easily-verifiable facts can be described as "ugliness." The Democrats are hitting McCain daily, mocking his age, questioning his health, attacking his military record, and running ads based on quotes of his that were taken completely out of context. Yet, oddly enough, there is very little outrage among "objective" media types over this. I wonder why the double-standard?
68 - RJ Elliott
Phillip,
By the way, I thought this was a good article.
69 - Andy Marsh
Look you! The you'r was a figner(intentional) f#@k of sorts...(thanks for the props)as to the others...you knew what I meant....we need a spell checker in the comments section! Not that it would help in most of my grammatical errors or the artical/article kind of stuff.
other than that...good morning Clav! Check that...good afternoon Clav!
You know what's really bad? I like McCain, but when I was in the navy, I really disliked almost every Academy grad I ever met! They all seemed to be so condescending it wasn't even funny! I may have to rethink this whole thing...
70 - Phillip Winn
RJ, Thanks!
Please, try to understand what this looks like to someone who isn't deeply invested in partisan politics. You're upset about the daily attacks on your preferred candidate: "mocking his age [it is a verifiable fact that he's old], questioning his health [it is a verifiable fact that old people are more likely to have health problems, and it is a verifiable fact that Senator McCain has had some health problems], attacking his military record [based on verifiable facts], and running ads based on quotes of his [verifiable, factual quotes] that were taken completely out of context." You say that there is a double standard, and yet your own complaints are about things that meet the standard you defined.
Since it's factually true that Senator McCain remembers the invention of dirt, I suppose it's up to the voters to decide whether that's relevant, right?
I think both campaigns have done an excellent job of using the media to get their message out, fact-checking each other effectively. Nobody who has been paying any attention would believe that Senator Obama is a Muslim even for a second, but that list of "facts" isn't intended to reach people who have been paying any attention.
You know it and I know it.
I'll say it again: there is plenty to dislike about either candidate based on policies alone. Digging into bizarre accumulations of "facts" intended to present a vivid picture of a candidate as something other than he is doesn't help anybody.
71 - Clavos
Hi Andy,
Re spell checkers: If you use Firefox as your browser, its spell checker works everywhere you type, including BC's Comment boxes.
Available for free at mozilla dot org.
artical. That won't show as an error in my published comment, but it was a test, and yup, Firefox told me it was a misspelling.
When Obama first appeared on the national scene, I was strongly attracted to him because of his obvious intelligence, his poise, his speaking ability, and his charisma. After reading everything on his web site in search of his positions on the issues, I cooled a little, because he's obviously left of center, and I'm not, except in social issues. I also have concerns about his lack of experience, especially as revealed in some of his comments about international affairs.
I've never voted anything but Republican at presidential level, and I'm still undecided about this race, but I like the shift towards the center that Obama has undertaken recently.
On the other side of the aisle: as a VN vet, I strongly empathize with McCain and the horrors he endured over there; I find him too conservative on social issues, and I worry about his stance on the international issues as well; we don't IMO, have a good candidate in terms of foreign affairs.
It's going to be an interesting election year.
72 - Andy Marsh
I was trying to follow one of those links listed in commetn #24. I ended up on israelinside.com and read an artiCLE that says no one has seen Barry's birth certificate!
WTF???
This was an issue I wasn't aware of at all. I then did a google search and came up with a bunch of artiCLEs that show a birth cert, but there's no signature or stamp on any of the pics. And from what I've read, officials in Hawaii will not confirm that what is being put out there as Barry's official birth certificate, is in fact an official Hawaii document!
This owuld be one of those things that make you go....hmmmmmm.
Just a thought.
73 - Phillip Winn
Andy, it just makes me sigh. It's crap.
Senator Obama was born in Hawaii, and Senator McCain was born in Panama. Both are U.S. citizens, and have been since birth. It's that simple.
74 - RJ Elliott
You say that there is a double standard, and yet your own complaints are about things that meet the standard you defined.
Since it's factually true that Senator McCain remembers the invention of dirt, I suppose it's up to the voters to decide whether that's relevant, right?
You betcha! And they will. And the Democrats (and their allies in the media) will continue to hammer away at these issues. AND YET THERE WON'T BE ALL THE ENDLESS HAND-WRINGING ABOUT THE "UGLINESS" AND "DISGUSTING" NATURE OF IT ALL, like you see when someone brings up some inconvenient facts about Prince Obama. THAT is what I mean about the double-standard.
It's like, okay, the left is gonna smear McCain will all sorts of arguably-true things. But we on the right are supposed to unilaterally disarm, and refuse to fight back with dirt on Obama? And if we do, we're called all sorts of names, and the facts we mention are dismissed as "lies" (even when accompanied with citations)? And this is somehow fair?
Nobody who has been paying any attention would believe that Senator Obama is a Muslim even for a second, but that list of "facts" isn't intended to reach people who have been paying any attention.
Again, you inexplicably put the word "facts" in scare quotes. Why? They are true, are they not? (Correct answer: Yes.)
Did comment #24 say anywhere that Obama is CURRENTLY a Muslim? (Correct answer: No.)
So what is the complaint? That the voters can't be trusted with certain information about a presidential candidate, because they might make the "wrong" decision?
You know it and I know it.
Know what? That some people will be turned off when they learn about Obama's past and close personal associations? Of course. And some people will be turned off when they learn about McCain's little "100 years in Iraq" comment. But that isn't stopping MoveOn.org from funneling millions of dollars into a national television ad campaign on this very issue, now is it? Where's the outrage among the "objective" media over that?
I'll say it again: there is plenty to dislike about either candidate based on policies alone.
This is very true. But since voters often base their decisions on things other than strictly the issues, it's totally fair game to pursue other aspects of the candidate in oppo research. That's how politics has been played in the United States for about 200 years or so. And nothing has changed this year, despite the lofty rhetoric coming from the Obama camp (which your article points out very well, I thought).
Digging into bizarre accumulations of "facts" intended to present a vivid picture of a candidate as something other than he is doesn't help anybody.
Again with the scare quotes. Sigh...
You tell me: What is an "objective" picture of Obama? Who is he, really? Do you know? Does anyone?
Some would suggest he's a truly transformational figure, a political messiah come to permanently change the politics of America for the better. Others think he's an empty suit, a clueless naif. Others think he's a Manchurian Candidate. Others think he's an anti-American, anti-White Bolshevik. Others think he's just another cynical, power-hungry politician. Others think he's just a typical corrupt Chicago-style pol from the Cook County Democrat machine. And others have other opinions of the guy.
Who is right? I think the obvious answer is that no one is right and no one is wrong; it's entirely subjective. There is no "objective" opinion or portrait of Obama (or McCain, or Bush, or anyone for that matter).
So why do you seem to want to disqualify those who make their arguments about him (based on facts) that paint an unflattering portrait? Aren't their opinions just as valid as some mind-numbed 19-year old college undergrad who honestly believes that Obama is the Second Coming? Or someone who believes McCain is an insane war-monger?
Yet all the tut-tutting seems to be reserved for the Obama critics. And worse than merely being dismissed as kooks or wingnuts, they are called "liars" even when their points are factually true. I find that very troubling. As the saying goes, everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.
75 - Phillip Winn
RJ: "Yet all the tut-tutting seems to be reserved for the Obama critics." I don't know if you've noticed, but you just posted your comment to an article that most people would identify as criticism of Senator Obama.
Oops!
If you believe that two wrongs somehow cancel each other out, then we simply disagree, and that's all there is to that.
If you believe that ensuring that every knows that Senator Obama's middle name is the same as the former Iraqi dictator's last name is somehow important, then we simply disagree, and that's all there is to that.
Maybe you can show up on my next article criticizing Obama and complain again that nobody gets away with criticizing Obama! :-)