Alice Cooper's anthem might soon be only a memory....
For the past five years I've been telling my sons that if I had my way, there would be no such thing as summer vacation for kids, and their reactions have been, shall we say, not extremely positive. Sure, most kids love their summer vacations, but all good things must come to an end.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Cindy
And another thing, I can tell you exactly what's wrong with 'education' in the US. It's being run by people exactly like the people talking here.
27 - roger nowosielski
Tell you something else. I tried to apply to the University of Jerusalem (1960) - in mathematics - but didn't make the cut. The competition was out of this world.
In retrospect, I'm glad I haven't stayed, or I would have developed an inferiority complex.
28 - roger nowosielski
I hope I'm excluded, Cindy. We even if not, what else could you expect.
We Are The World!
29 - Baronius
Cindy - People like Clavos, Roger, Ruvy, and me? In what respects are we similar? Come to think of it, in what respect is your comment #26 anything other than a pointless personal attack?
30 - Cindy
lol I'm not sure what you just said there, Roger. But, nah, you aren't included, I gave you a 'hall pass'. ;-)
31 - Christine
Glenn, this has nothing to do with politics, but I would have to vote NO on more school. For two reasons 1) I have enough damn homework, tests, teachers, etc. to deal with 9 months out of the year and 2) I enjoy my time with my daughters during the summer!
32 - Christine
PS, even if this proposal came from the Pope...it is a "lame ass" idea, however, I would have to take the "ass" out of that statement!
33 - Cindy
Baronius,
My comment is what I think is true. If you saw 42 gardeners out in the garden all chopping up the shrubbery and causing a hell of a problem whilst all telling each other that something's wrong and we've got to do something about it, and meantime they just keep chopping away, would it be a personal attack to say to them, 'I think you are what's wrong."? But the gardeners never think of seeing if maybe they, themselves, are the problem.
I didn't name any names but why didn't you include Glenn in there and Joanne? And anyone else who thinks they know what they're doing and knows it so well that they should have a say that impacts others. Poor Julie, She sounds like the only person who actually has any kids in school here.
I think that 'people' are the problem, Baronius. Not kids. The people who make the decisions about what education is and what needs to be done--they think reality should work the way they think it should work, even though it doesn't. They don't know what they're doing. I see what they do, and what I see as the problem, being replicated in this thread.
No personal attack. Just my opinion. What do you consider a personal attack? Is saying you think someone is wrong a personal attack?
34 - roger nowosielski
But it is politics, Christine, government's control of education.
Next thing, they'll take the kids away from their parents and keep them in schools all year round.
Remember the indoctrination video that Doug Hunter posted on one of the threads, the kids clapping and chanting "Obama, Obama," after the best tradition of Chinese indoctrination techniques.
This should become an important issue for all Americans - indicating the direction this country is going. And it's so right-headed at face value - educating our kids.
35 - roger nowosielski
The "42 gardeners" parable. That's a good one. And they're all chopping away.
So let me get it straight:
The gardeners are the commenters. The cut- off must be the children. And poor Julie, the only mother in the bunch, is lamenting and shedding tears at the entire spectacle. All the while Cindy (playing Jesus) relates the parable to the disbelieving Pharisee (Baronius).
I think I've got it.
36 - Ruvy
1 Warning for PDA (public display of affection): for kissing his gf goodbye as they headed off to class.
1 Detention for Insubordination: for politely declining to give up the name of said gf and thereby refusing to aid authorities with the enforcement of their punishment scheme.
1 'Go directly to the Vice Principal': for advocating for a vision impaired student who was punished by being seated in the back of the classroom.
1 'Just for that you can sit in the back of the classroom too': Not as a punishment of course, just for being a 'distraction'.
If after three weeks, this is the record your nephew is acquiring, you are right to be proud of him. Someone has been teaching him to stand up for what is right and just, and not to back down before "authority figures".
Strikes me that if this is what your nephew's school is really about, it would be more honest to call it a prison than a school. And frankly, I'm willing to bet that more and more schools are really about the same things as your nephew's school.
I wouldn't want my kids in prison all year round. And to be blunt, I could never figure out a way to home-school them. If we'd had enough money to get by mostly on my wife's salary, I would have home-schooled them. The more I got involved with their schooling, the more disgusted I got. And the more I could see it was a prison. It wasn't till I moved here and learned about Carroll Quigley that I understood why.
37 - Ruvy
Cindy, I should have mentioned that comment 36 was directed at you. Now go re-read my comment #21.
38 - roger nowosielski
They're nothing like that in Alameda, CA. But we're talking here about a middle to upper-middle class community, island community. More of an exception than the rule.
39 - Cindy
32 - lol, Christine. That was good.
40 - Cindy
35
lol! That is hilarious Roger.
41 - roger nowosielski
I'm not certain I got it right, Cindy, but I thought it was worth the try.
42 - Cindy
36 Ruvy,
Sorry for the flying shrapnel.
That is something I think is very true. More so than ever before (not that I think ever before was ever good anyway). How else can they force feed children more irrelevant crap so they can spit it out on some test later. Demonstrating what? That they got them to memorize something irrelevant for a little while?
Definition: School -
1. A place where the most important lesson is "Don't think; just obey."
(Roger, that smelling salts thing was a hoot. You're on a roll tonight.)
43 - roger nowosielski
I have to take my breaks from Althusser. If you think Foucault is tough, this guy is almost impenetrable.
44 - Christine
#39 - Cindy
"32 - lol, Christine. That was good".
I actually made Cindy laugh! Wow I must being doing something right!
45 - Julie
LOL you're right, Poor Julie does have children in school and one who is yet to come. I completely understand your gardener's example and that is exactly what I feel is happening as well. How is more time with these people who are teaching inadequately in the first place going to improve our children's so called "education"? I'm not trying to knock all teachers because I have had experiences with MANY good teachers who are actually in it for the sake of teaching and the excitement of getting through to a student who hasn't been "getting it" up til now... those are the types of teachers that deserve a raise, deserve our praise, and who I wish there were more of. For now, I will continue to fill in at home where the teachers leave off at school and hope to heck this proposal goes nowhere for the time being.
46 - Leighann
My local newspaper came out with an article a couple of weeks ago which claimed that the schools on the military base where I live outscored the public schools. Since I have worked in both, I knew that the article was misleading.
First of all, the demographics are totally different. On the military base, there are no students living in poverty. Now, I know that privates do not make much money but I also know that they do not pay rent or any utilities if they live on base, so these students at least have a home to go to every night. They are far less likely to teach students who have been to six different foster homes in the past year or who have been out gang banging all night long. When there is a major problem with the parents or even getting in touch with a parent, there is no commanding officer that a teacher can call. Many parents are not let off for school meetings as they are at the military base.
Second, military schools are not under No Child Left Behind. They will say that they try to follow it but they do not have to since they do not rely on federal money. They are federal so it is already their money. This means they are not being pulled in a thousand different directions.
They (well at least the school where I worked) do not follow standardized procedures when administering the tests. They allow the teachers to keep the tests in their room all week. In public schools the tests are counted and checked out just before testing and just after testing every day so the teacher will not be tempted to look at the next days’ questions and teach those questions to the students that afternoon. I guess this would be very tempting if your reputation as a teacher were on the line.
I could go on and on about the differnces in these two systems that could effect test scores.
These two school systems can not be compared as far as test score outcomes go. There are too many extraneous variables.
I bring this up because I often wonder how comparable the United States is with the other countries in which it is being compared. Are factors taken into consideration such as that we educate and test ALL of our students? I include students in special education for things such as Mental Retardation, Learning Disabilities, Autism, and Behavior disorders in "ALL" as well as students who are considered At-Risk, in foster homes, or just do not care.
From my understanding, this is not the case in many other countries. If that is true then the education systems are not comparable. It’s like comparing apple and oranges.
47 - Leighann
Oh, here in TN we do still have students who work their parents farms during the summer.
48 - roger nowosielski
You know, we're neighbors. I'm in KY.
49 - Leighann
Yeah, I know. We may be closer than you think. You have posted where you live before. We are just across the state line from each other.
50 - Doug Hunter
Cindy #23
Thanks for putting into words exactly how I feel about this topic and politics in general. My only interest in telling people what to do or how to think is to tell them not to tell me what to do or how to think.
It is futility.
51 - Arch Conservative
Yes our public schools are in sad shape and yes it has been the liberal left that has been in charge of them for the last 30 years.
All the studies that have been done show that private Catholic schools generally spend less per pupil and produce students that score better on tests. I guess while the kids at public schools were learning songs of praise to honor "the one" and having the virtue of gay marriage explained to them in the second grade the Catholic school students were actually learning to read, write, do arithmetic and studying history.
Go figure.
52 - Jeannie Danna
#51
You can't just spew bull in the comment threads ARCH.
Yes our public schools are in sad shape and yes it has been the liberal left that has been in charge of them for the last 30 years.
can you provide a link or some proof of this statement?
Our experience for the last thirty years has been to fight with the conservative school board members for new teachers and resources for the classrooms, not the administration that skims a whopping thirty percent off the top!
In this county, every school has a superintendent making 100+ K not to mention their personal staff and beautiful air-conditioned office suites, catered lunches and endless trips to resorts all in the name of "conferences."
Meanwhile the teachers struggle to get supplies and the technology in the classroom,where we really need it!
another point here:
Most teachers have to hold summer jobs to make ends meet!
I guess while the kids at public schools were learning songs of praise to honor "the one" and having the virtue of gay marriage explained to them in the second grade the Catholic school students were actually learning to read, write, do arithmetic and studying history.
The above quote is also complete and utter trash.
First of all, Who is the "one?"
and finally. What school are you referring to that teaches gay marriage in the second grade?
Please name one of these schools Arch, so I can call the school for myself and find out if you are for real or just a load of hot air.
53 - Ruvy
Bing,
Catholic schools, like Jewish day schools, produce students who do well on tests. But they are just as indoctrinated to be cogs in the corporate wheel as the kids in the public schools - perhaps moreso, because the discipline tends to be better in these schools.
I leave you to deal with Jeannie on your own. She is right about the way school superintendants are way overpaid while teachers have to scrape by, buying materials out of their own pockets to completely supply classrooms - this even in relatively well off school districts.
Jeannie has trouble with realizing that there is a personality cult surrounding Obama, similar to the one surrounding Chávez, Hitler and Stalin. She may have trouble acknowledging the Soviet roots of much of this personality cult. Lots of frustrated cheerleaders of the obamanation have trouble seeing that as well.
54 - Jeannie Danna
Ruvy,
I am going to ignore your ending paragraph in #53 because it sounds like dribble.:(
However, thank you very much for agreeing with me on how these schools are being sold short by the administrative powers that be!
We would get along soo much better if you would lay off the same rants!
- *
_ ( a wink for Ruvy!)
55 - Jeannie Danna
I would also like to publicly apologise to you Ruvy.
You have every right to comment here. Although I find many of your words to be distasteful, I will try harder to tolerate them! That was a cheap shot I took at you the other day saying YUK...:(
I hope you will accept my apology Ruvy.
56 - Ruvy
Jeannie,
Of course I accept your apology. And naturally, you have the right to ignore what you choose to here. This is concommitant with the right to post.
But I humbly ask you to consider the things you regard as dribble as something worth considering.
Look at it this way. Whatever I think of Barack Obama, he is a man I would like to like. He is bright, he is a good writer, he finished law school! I may not think much of ACORN, but he was a community organizer! This is something I tried to be in St. Paul, when I lived there in the '90's until 2001.
They were pissed off at me when I resigned my position on the Ramsey Action Programs Board of Directors because I led and repesented people who needed a voice in an organization that more and more was wandering off in the direction of elitists who don't give a damn. I only quit because I had to concentrate my energies on the move to Israel. I didn't like leaving my faction there weakened. But I digress.
To return to my point, I'd like to like Obama because he learned from a fellow like Sol Alinksy, because he has done things I would have like to, and has been reasonably successful at it. And he got rich authoring books!
But for all that, I cannot afford to like Obama. You've seen why with your own frustration over how he is handling a health reform bill you would like to see passed. He has been deceptive and quick to shed the interests of those who cannot afford to hob-nob with Wall Street bankers, people like you.
I see much more that is evil in the man. Leaving aside his obvious antipathy to Israel, he is in the process of trashing what remains of democracy in your country.
Don't believe, me Jeannie. Believe Gerald Celente, a trends forecaster who has called things like the financial panic of 1987, the dot.com bubble and its collapse, the collapse of the housing market, and all sorts of other things. The man has a record of being right, which is why he has been on CNBC, amongst other stations.
57 - Doug Hunter
I don't agree that our education problem is based on funding. Several studies have noted that there is little correlation between spending and educational outcomes. One example that sticks out, New York has triple the per pupil spending of Utah but a 10% higher dropout rate. Surprisingly, on SAT scores and dropout rates the midwestern states perform best even into those states like Nebraska where there isn't alot of money around while rich northeastern states spend the most per pupil.
Real educational improvement comes when families, communities, and parents put a focus on education, make an effort to enrich their children's lives, and invest themselves in their kid's education. That's where real progress is made. Where you have underperforming schools you have bad parenting and poor environments at home not a lack of funding. (which is why there is a push to get kids out earlier, Head Start, and keep kids out longer, Year Round School)
58 - Jeannie Danna
#56 here we go again RUVY!
he finished law school!
President Obama holds two law degrees. One from Harvard, here he was president of the Harvard Law Review at age THIRTY!, and the other degree is from Columbia University in NYC.
He was and is soo much more than a Community organizer. (not that there is anything wrong with community organizing:))
I have to say again how it is jealousy and prejudice that is holding his efforts back right now.
Imagine being a Senator for years and then seeing a junior Senator rising to the top in only four short years! I'd be jealous too!
If he was caucasian( especially of English decent) then he would be held on high!by everyone.
I watch BBC World News now Ruvy ; they are not owned by corporate America. Also there is a whole world out there, not just US.
p.s. The Ed Show is still one of my favorite shows. Ed fires my husband and me up!!!
59 - Ruvy
Jeannie,
It matters to me that Obama finished law school because I didn't - not that you would necessarily know that. I wasn't putting the guy down.
Also there is a whole world out there, not just US. Good! You see that then! Try watching this video in English from Russian TV.
60 - Jeannie Danna
Ruvy, I watched that video and I am amazed at how many people try to blame the present administration for AIG, Freddy and Fannie and the auto industry.
1. AIG was on Bushes watch and you know it.
2.Freddy and Fanny actually help many first time homeowners acquire a little crumb of the pie, so they have to survive if the middle class is to survive.
3. Who killed the EV1? corporate lobbyists that's who!
So please realize that this country has been in a stranglehold for the past 40 years!
We just got rid of some of the fascists, and they are not us...
61 - Jeannie Danna
Who killed the Sherman Anti Trust laws?
Wasn't that Reagan's admin? Please correct me if I'm wrong...
62 - Cindy
When I researched English as a school subject--reading and comprehension--I discovered 'The Problem' with the schools goes back as far as there were schools. For 200+ years people in this country have been talking about and trying to solve 'The Problem' with the schools.
There are 75-100 years worth of studies that came out of Australia. (Ignored by people trying to solve 'The Problem'.) Tons of studies all over the place showing pretty much similar things. Guess what?
The schools are designed to teach English exactly opposite of the way children learn. Exactly opposite.
Why? That's a good question to ask oneself, I think.
Ruvy,
Catholic schools, like Jewish day schools, produce students who do well on tests. But they are just as indoctrinated to be cogs in the corporate wheel as the kids in the public schools...
That sounds right to me.
63 - roger nowosielski
So how do you account, Cindy, for American literary output? Arguably, it's been the most prolific and ground-breaking in the world.
64 - roger nowosielski
#61,
I think it predates Reagan, Jeannie. Even Eisenhower was talking about the military-industrial complex, and that was in the fifties. The collusion between government and big business has been growing ever since, and nothing was being done about it.
It's a shame!
65 - Doug Hunter
Roger #63
Does true creativity lend itself very well to the confines of structured education?
66 - Cindy
63-
"It is almost a miracle that modern teaching methods have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for what this delicate little plant needs more than anything, besides stimulation, is freedom." --Albert Einstein
I account for them because those with a love of a thing have less to struggle with than those who have any potential love of a thing drummed out of them. It was no effort for Einstein to study a multitude of subjects. The rest he ignored and so was a failure. Why does no one ever think of reading what Einstein says about schools and learning? People want children to be smart, why not ask a smart person what the problem is?
Albert Einstein - Failure
"Einstein didn't like to study except for those things that interested him. Albert was interested in mathematics and philosophy. He just didn't bother with the other stuff.
A high school official wanted young Einstein expelled from school. The teacher complained that Einstein never said anything. He just sat in the back of the class and smiled. At the age of sixteen Albert dropped out of school.
Albert Einstein would probably have fared even worse today in the United States than he did in late Nineteenth Century Wurtemburg, Germany. He definitely would have been one child left behind in the era of No Child Left Behind."
Biographical background from the American Institute of Physics:
"Einstein hated the academic high school he was sent to in Munich, where success depended on memorization and obedience to arbitrary authority. His real studies were done at home with books on mathematics, physics, and philosophy. A teacher suggested Einstein leave school, since his very presence destroyed the other students' respect for the teacher."
Here is a text worth reading. Grammar, Grammars, and the Teaching of Grammar by Patrick Hartwell. (pdf) If nothing else, just read the opening page--about three paragraphs.
67 - Cindy
65 - Or I could have gone with that one sentence answer Doug gave. lol
68 - roger nowosielski
#65, Hi Doug.
No. But it's brought to the forth thereby. Sort of like a rebellion.
Anyways, I don't share Cindy's idealistic vision that all are equally gifted and talented. And in addition to that, I may disagree with her about the purpose of elementary education. It's not to create geniuses but only a certain level of competence.
69 - roger nowosielski
Rebellion is good. Let's never underestimate it. It's definitely more beneficial to the individual than conformity.
In fact, there's a sense in which I find a certain contradiction between our desire to create a fool-proof educational system (and how can one argue with that) and the best possible outcome. Conflict, struggle and yes, rebellion, are the necessary ingredients of society and, may I add, the determinants of individual growth. (Foucault) In absence of that, aren't we creating a society of robots.
Once again, I refer both of you to revisit Doug's link concerning the indoctrination of children - all clapping for Obama.
70 - Ruvy
Jeannie,
First of all, thank you for watching the video. I appreciate that. Now to your comments. Please have patience with me - this may get a bit long.
The collapse of September 2008 was building from the day Ronald Reagan was inaugurated to be president. He was elected because Carter was seen as ineffective - and he was - but that is irrelevant. What is relelvant?
This.
Reagan chose a path of massive deficit spending to get the States out of recession with relatively high inflation and very high interest rates. This kind of deficit spending was justifiable when the States had an industrial base and could produce its way out of economic disasters, but by the time Reagan took office, that base was nearly gone.
In addition, his spending turned the United States from a creditor nation where foreigners owed the Americans, to a debtor nation where Americans owed foreigners.
For all the good Reagan may have done in bringing down the Soviet Union, it has become negated by the time bomb of debt that he planted in the American economy and the American psyche. The Republicans, that party of stingy bastards who wanted balanced budgets on the backs of poor people, were suddenly spending our money (I still lived in the States then) like drunks with the bosses payroll in their hands!
What came to America's rescue was the development of the PC (that machine I'm using to communicate with you right now) and other advbances in the computer. While the PC's themselves were largely made in Korea or China, the programs to run them were developed in the USA, and there were plenty of plants producing various parts (what I was familiar with was circuit boards) for computers all over the country. In other words, the United States sort of produced its way out of the recession. When a panic hit the market in 1987, again computers saved the day, this time with further applications and the development of the world wide web, which took off in the early 90's. That was the last time there was an American produced recovery.
While Clinton strove for balanced budgets, he weakened the walls between stock brokerages and banks, which was a time bomb that was not seen - until too late. In rthe mean time the housing market heated up - at least it did in St. Paul - which is why we were able to move here just 6 months after the dot.com bubble finally burst.
The Bush administration, inheriting Clinton's recession, spent money like Reagan did - and then really started the money machine rolling with a war in Iraq that you guys didn't even need. And when it all came crashing down, Bush had to combine the government with big business - fascism.
Obama has only continued what Bush did, combining big business with government - more fascism - and his irresponsible spending will leave you with an inflation rate that will make inflation under Carter look like a picnic in July on a pretty lake.
Now, this don't have much to do with schools - except there won't be any money to pay for them. And it don't have much to do with national health care either - there won't be any money to pay for that. Or rqther there will. Doctor visits will cost $500 or more as the co-pay, the dollar will be that low. America is about to go on a very unpleasant diet of non-consumption. The credit cards are maxed out and the cash is going to become worthless.
71 - Cindy
Anyways, I don't share Cindy's idealistic vision that all are equally gifted and talented.
I have no vision regarding all people being equally gifted or talented. What I'm saying has nothing to do with such a notion. I think you aren't seeing the point.
72 - Cindy
And, quite frankly, I SHOCKED! lol (not)
73 - Cindy
It's not to create geniuses but only a certain level of competence.
Well, it fails miserably and as I said, has been failing since its inception. Again, people will keep debating about what they think, whilst tossing into the circular file any evidence for how things actually work.
74 - roger nowosielski
You didn't shock me. What point am I missing?
75 - roger nowosielski
But can't you see, I may have a greater faith in the individual than you, which is to say that for all these obstacles we shall overcome.