Saudi Arabia is said to be ready to do whatever it takes to ensure stability in Iraq.
A senior White House official says Saudi Arabia would be ready and willing to deploy its own troops into Sunni-dominated areas of Iraq if the Bush Administration plan to crush the insurrection fails, leading to total chaos. …
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Emry
"I know low class when I see it." said Clodvos, dodging another mirror.
You hurt Clodvos's feelings, Moonraven, and now he's in a snit. Shame on you.
77 - Clavos
Another class act...
78 - Dave Nalle
Why does Moonraver keep saying that Clavos has claimed to be Mexican? As far as I can recall he's never done any such thing. He's claimed to be fluent in Spanish - and proven it - and he's claimed to have spent a lot of time in Mexico. That isn't the same as actually being a Mexican. It actually puts him on much the same footing as Moonraver.
Dave
79 - Clavos
You apparently missed it, Dave, but a long time ago I did tell her (I forget on which thread), that because of being born in Mexico City to American parents, I have dual citizenship, as do both my younger siblings.
But, as she has stated repeatedly, she doesn't believe that, or anything else I've posted for that matter.
C'est la vie...
80 - Dave Nalle
Given her heavy emphasis on the delusion of race, having white parents pretty much disqualifies you from being a REAL Mexican.
Perhaps we can get together and share some tamales and baba ganoush as we celebrate our birthplaces, though I'm sure Marthe doesn't believe I was born in Lebanon either.
Dave
81 - Emry
Dave strokes the pouty Clodvos. Not a pretty picture at all.
82 - Clavos
Dave:
This is cool!
I've got almost as many troll groupies as you do these days!
Although some of 'em are two-timing us...
83 - Dave Nalle
Doesn't it make you feel special? You must be doing something right.
Dave
84 - S.T.M
Fu.k it's hot here today ... 47C at one stage; still around 40 late at night - don't know what that is farenheit ... bloody really hot, anyway.
But it's nothing compared to some of the red-hot comments on this thread ...
85 - Clavos
47C = 116.6F!!!
40C = 104F
Whew!!
86 - Zedd
STM
Police men don't support extensive gun ownership. Guns get stolen out of households and its those guns that put their lives off course in great danger.
Dave forgot that there were other people on the thread and got carried away, lying to someone afar.
87 - Dave Nalle
Police men don't support extensive gun ownership. Guns get stolen out of households and its those guns that put their lives off course in great danger.
Zedd, don't accuse me of lying when you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Virtually every police organization in the US vocally supports private gun ownership and they are outspoken on the positive impact which the private ownership of guns has on law enforcement.
Read this article it both details the reality of police support for gun rights, and explains where your misconceptions - which are shamefully common - originate from.
Dave
88 - Christopher Rose
Dave, I spent a little time on the site you linked to and learned that it is a non-profit lobbying group, not actually an official police representative body.
Perhaps you could try linking to something else that would support your contention that "Virtually every police organization in the US vocally supports private gun ownership". This site just seems to be one that is self-selecting from the pro-weapons lobby, which would explain why you chose it.
89 - Dave Nalle
I linked there because it was easy and they had an explanatory article and they are speaking for a bunch of different law enforcement groups.
The alternative is to provide links to lots of specific law enforcement groups speaking out against specific gun bans, which I can also do, but it's kind of a pain.
One of the most recent examples of this would be in the recent attempt to ban handguns in San Francisco. See the last paragraph in the article from the LA Times at IndyMedia.
To quote the article:
San Francisco's ban also was opposed by the San Francisco Police Officers Assn., which said the new law nullified "the personal choice of city residents to lawfully possess a handgun for self-defense purposes."
In most cases what you'll see when gun rights are raised is the police leadership backing the politicians and the police officers, retired officers and officers associations supporting gun owners.
I can dig up more examples, but the truth is that there aren't a lot of successful efforts to ban guns in America, so the opportunity to oppose such bans is limited.
Here's another interesting article, though. It looks at police officer support for allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons.
Dave
90 - moonraven
1. I am happy to see that now the monitor of this thread has gotten wise to Dave's lying about his sources. To the best of this poster's knowledge, the only real sources he has posted (ones without an ideological axe to grind)--and ONLY at my insistence--have directly contradicted his claims for them.
Actually, Clavos did NOT tell me at anytime that his parents were both US citizens and that he just HAPPENED to be born in Mexico City.
At that time he was trying to convince me that he was more of a Mexican than I am, and he conveniently neglected to indicate that he is just another redneck racist.
I owe all the cubano culeros in South Florida and apology.
Maybe the cubanos would be interested in trying some of my homemade mutabal--which is only called baba ganoush in Lebanon. Put a little variety in their diet, anyway....
91 - Dave Nalle
Christopher, I posted a lengthy response with additional links, but it seems to have disappeared. Weirdness. I think I can dig up some of the links again, however.
I posted the original LEAA link because it was a single place to go to and see an article which explained the situation, especially the confusion caused by the fact that police leadership generally backs the politicians, while officers organizations, retired officers and active duty officers come down on the side of citizens gun rights.
Specific examples are also limited by the fact that gun control laws don't often get very far in the US because there's such widespread opposition. But there are a few good examples around.
The first is the recent gun ban in San Francisco, where the SFPOA which represents officers there came out strongly against the gun ban. Check the last paragraph of this article from the LA times at IndyMedia which says:
Another good example is the debate over concealed carry of firearms by citizens, where police officers were
polled and registered 60% support for concealed carry laws.
It's easy to dig up lots of additional examples if you go through a group like LEAA or the NRA because they've done the research for you, but I got these two relatively quickly by sticking with nonpartisan sources.
Dave
92 - Clavos
Martita says:
Actually, Clavos did NOT tell me at anytime that his parents were both US citizens and that he just HAPPENED to be born in Mexico City.
From my comment #93 in this thread:
Marthe,
I was born (of American parents) and raised in México. Como adulto, he trabajado mas de tres décadas en empresas mexicanas, y por supuesto, hablo español.
Alzheimer's, Martita?
93 - moonraven
There goes ol' Dave throwing up that sticky brown stuff again: guess he's trying to cover his ass.
Eventually folks--and now hopefully even the not very well-informed ones--get onto bullshitters like you.
94 - moonraven
Sorry, ol' Dave: I am used to referring to ALL people in this continent as Americans.
Apparently Clavos bent the truth, though, when he said he was RAISED in Mexico?
It really doesn't matter, as clavos has repeatedly demonstrated that he knows nothing about Latin America.
I do not need to see his school records through high school.
I really do not care.
95 - Dave Nalle
I wasn't aware that links to news articles were brown and sticky. Do you ever get tired of lies and personal attacks? Is there no limit to how much you're willing to humiliate yourself and look like a clown?
Dave
96 - Clavos
Marta says:
Apparently Clavos bent the truth, though, when he said he was RAISED in Mexico?
Didn't bend shit, martita. Stayed there until I went off to prep school in the US at age 15.
Ten years later, after school, college and service in Vietnam, I was back in Mexico, where I began a thirty year career of working for Mexican companies in both Mexico and the US that also involved travel all over Latin America.
In 1998, when the law was changed, i applied for and received my Mexican passport, as did both my siblings. So Martita, unlike you, la gringa metiche, I AM a Mexican.
You really DON'T care how stupid you look, do you?
To quote your favorite despot:
"Desde la P hasta el A."
97 - moonraven
Keep it up, Dave.
And keep deluding yourself that no one with a normal IQ sees through your bullshit. You almost NEVER put links to anything unless forced.
Yep, they diappeared--right off this thread.
The dog always ate your homework, too.
This bird is out of here. Gotta score tortillas again.
98 - Nancy
Moonie, very interesting vignette of life in Saudi Arabia (#61); when were you there, & why? Were you able to ask any Saudi women how they felt about living that way (the shrouds & all)? Is there any kind of movement among them to get rid of that sort of thing so they could, for instance, drive themselves, or is this not an issue for them? Thanks.
99 - Dave Nalle
MR, I'm an editor, I know exactly why they disappeared. They had a word in them that got them flagged as spam. Since I'm an editor I fixed it.
As for posting links, anyone who has been on this site for any time at all knows I'm fanatical about providing documentation.
But keep the lies coming. The only person you hurt is yourself.
Dave
100 - Deano
You know, if you kids want to spend all of your waking hours on this pointless petty, infantile back-and-forth, we can ask Eric to set you up a special comment area.....
101 - STM
"It gets stm all hot and bothered and back and forth it goes, endlessly"
Been on the chardy again Emry, or is mum getting worried about you being up so late?
102 - Lumpy
I still don't understand why moonraver continues to make statements which can be disproven just by scrolling up on the same page. Is she insane or just remarkably dim wittee?
103 - Christopher Rose
Dave, if I understand the sites you link to correctly, there are none that are actually official police force sites.
What I'd like to see is where, say, the equivalent of the Metropolitan Police, the London police force, are officially campaigning for an armed citizenry.
You seem to be producing organizations that individual officers join, like the SFPOA. What is the official argument of the San Francisco Police, for example?
104 - Christopher Rose
Moonraven: although I dispute many of Dave's political perspectives, which I find a heady mixture of formula, cliché, old school 20th Century thinking and plain old foolishness mixed with a large dollop of wishful thinking, I find your responses to him to be far worse.
Not only do you keep adding entirely unnecessary personal characterisations that add nothing to the debate, your arrogant and patronising style of engagement is not helping your arguments at all. If indeed you are the scholarly type you profess to be, are you satisfied with your performance here on this site?
For your information, Dave has never called for you to be banned and I, as Comments Editor, have refrained from editing your remarks only because Dave has had the incredible patience and good manners to continue debating with you.
You may note that, in my remarks in comments above, I am disputing his persepective in an entirely non-confrontational way, even though I find his views so utterly wrong.
105 - S.T.M
"You seem to be producing organizations that individual officers join, like the SFPOA. What is the official argument of the San Francisco Police, for example?"
My guess is, like cops everywhere, they'd like to see less guns able to find their way onto the streets, rather than more.
I know for a fact that police in States like NY find it disheartening that some neighbouring states have very lax handgun laws, some have few or no controls, which means the guns are purchased legally and then lo and behold, find their way to NY - particularly NYC.
No cops want a proliferation of guns, not officially anyway.
106 - Nancy
Maybe she just likes insulting & confronting everybody gratuitously. Some occasional people are like that. Or maybe she's PMS - that makes one very touchy & nasty-tempered, too.
107 - moonraven
Nancy,
Newsflash: PMS stops after menopause.
Christopher,
Your concern about the effectiveness of my arguments has been duly noted. We are clearly very different people with very different debating styles.
Mine is confrontational.
I also do not have a stake in this site, so our situations are very much apples and oranges.
I also suspect that reasoned and moderate debate (not wanting to appear confrontational) by those on the left in the US is one of the most obvious reasons why the confrontational witchhunting commies under the bed and God in every garage style of the right has been very successful in excluding both reason and moderation from the processes of both domestic and foreign policy.
But, I suppose that's a bit gratuitous on my part, as I only pay the price on the occasions I have to show my US passport.
You folks are living in hell every day.
108 - Nancy
No, only when you show up on this site & harangue everybody endlessly & pointlessly. On the other hand, I really, really liked your little vignette on women of Saudi Arabia. THAT was interesting & I could wish for a lot more like that. If you'd condescend to answer a question: why do they (Saudi women) put up with having to wear a burka? Why not just tell the men to go to hell?
Glad to hear that PMS doesn't go on forever. I missed that part in school.
109 - troll
(Moonraven - Chris is an Englishman living in Spain)
110 - moonraven
On an informational note, Nancy wrote:
"Moonie, very interesting vignette of life in Saudi Arabia (#61); when were you there, & why? Were you able to ask any Saudi women how they felt about living that way (the shrouds & all)? Is there any kind of movement among them to get rid of that sort of thing so they could, for instance, drive themselves, or is this not an issue for them? Thanks."
Nancy,
If you actually read these threads instead of just hopping in from time to time to peck at my eyes, you would know that I just returned from the Middle East, spent several months there as well in 2005, and that I am an educational consultant to universities in Latin America and the Middle East.
Not that I see giving personal information of that sort is a requirement for posting here....
In all exactitude, I have not spent a great amount of time in Saudi. But given the bridge from Saudi to Bahrain, I have spent a lot of time with Saudi students--and SOME time in Saudi.
In any case my experience with Saudi folks is pretty much limited to folks from 18 to 45 years old--and that may have been indicated by my post about the young women making trips to Seef Mall.
However, folks are very open to talking about their lives there--or at least with me. (Possibly because I also frequently wear abayas--as I am tall and statuesque they look good on me and I also frequently wear them here as well as in the US--and respect the traditions of the folks around me.) Or maybe because they just don't have a foreign audience all that frequently.
In all of the Middle East, largely due to globalization of products and companies (Gap, Zara, Starbucks, Seattle's Best, McDonalds, Dairy Queen, etc.) rather than to a any campaign by western governments to induce democratization, social changes are happening. Mostly to young people.
Saudi held its first municipal elections in 2005, and two of my students were unsuccessful candidates (but they thought the experience had been "fun"). Baby steps, but better than nothing.
Elections are now becoming commonplace in the region, actually--though no power changes hands because of them.
Young people are torn between intense pressures from family (even more intense than family stuff here in Latin America) to maintain traditions and all the western images they see on cable t.v., in movies and in magazines of different ways of dressing and different lifestyles.
In Bahrain, for example, not all women wear abayas (they are not shrouds, by the way--those are for cadavers). Some dress like young women in the west--jeans that require a Brazilian depilation and stringy tops above the navel. Others wear the traditional garments and headgear. Others wear a traditional abaya over the western clothes--with or without headgear.
Bahrain, which Bahrainis see as a fairly boring place with nothing to do for young people, is a hot spot for the Saudis--and they spend as much time there as they can.
Most of the Saudi women I know would prefer not to wear the full black regalia all the time, as they like "funkier" clothes (I have two young friends who even have started a garment business and they do not produce traditional clothing), and because black absorbs heat.
The issue of having to have a driver is not that big a deal for the women I know--but it must be very tough and very limiting for women in low-income families.
Every woman is different. In countries like Bahrain where there is a lot of variety in dress and lifestyle, it can still cause a lot of anguish for a young woman who decides to "uncover" to deal with familial pressure. Or it can take place with little or no fussing and fretting.
I have mixed feelings about the social changes I see there. On the one hand, more women are working and receiving a professional education. On the other hand, I am resistant to the homogenization of cultures and to the spreading of destructive foodstuffs.
111 - SHARK
Moonraven: "Your concern about the effectiveness of my arguments has been duly noted. We are clearly very different people with very different debating styles. Mine is confrontational."
Gotta run, kids!
I have an erection to deal with!
xxoo
S
PS: moongal, got any jpgs? : )
112 - Nancy
I didn't catch what you do or where you go because I don't frequent all that many threads here, altho it may seem sometimes like I'm ubiquitous.
I thought the women were forced to wear burqas in SA, altho I had read that Bahrain was a sort of Free Zone as far as women's rights were concerned. What about schooling - are they allowed to attend university with men?
Just a suggestion, I'd like to see an article about life as a woman in S.A. - what they can & can't do, etc. & why they tolerate it. There aren't too many Muslim or Saudi women online to ask or describe. Thanks for the info. I appreciate your answer.
113 - moonraven
I wrote the above before reading your second question, about why women in Saudi don't tell the men to go to hell.
In all countries in the world that I am familiar with, recent history has included the struggle of women to be treated as equals in their societies.
This morning when I was buying my morning newspaper in the zocalo of my small town here in Central Mexico there was a Women's Parliament meeting for our region going, and the speaker reminded the audience that although men and women were equal under the law, and that women had received the right to vote in 1922, that there were still a host of de facto inequalities against which to struggle.
These kinds of struggles and successes do not happen overnight.
The idea that a Saudi woman should tell men to go to hell is the kind of recommendation that gives folks from the US a bad name overseas. It is seen as the usual Ugly American telling everybody to do things the way they are done in the States. Its offensive.
Asking questions (depending on how they are phrased), developing the habit of active listening, giving reasoned advice when it is solicited--those can be useful behaviors that allow one to get to know folks from a different culture and form friendships with them.
In Saudi, women don't feel that they want to confront the society. They try to find creative ways to express themselves and do what they want.
I am not implying that it is easy--after all, women did not vote in the Saudi elections last year--even though there is actually nothing in Saudi law that forbids it. They were told, "Next time". If that doesn't happen, they will figure something out.
It will happen pretty soon.
114 - moonraven
Nancy,
In Saudi approximately 60% of the university degrees are awarded to women.
Of course, I HAVE had some women tell me that they are studying and getting degrees because otherwise they would be sleeping in their houses from boredom....
115 - moonraven
And no, Saudi women have their own universities--no men.
That's one of the reasons why there are so many of them studying in Bahrain.
116 - Christopher Rose
Moonraven and Shark! Do I hear wedding bells?
117 - Martin Lav
Nancy,
I used to live in Iran and the majority of middle and upper class people preferred the western styles and "progression" under the Shah, the poorer, apparently more religious folks, preferred the chador and the "morals" associated with it. Consequently, no more Shah, no more US.
While many muslim women, may want more freedoms, including dress, vocation, driving etc.....I believe their only reference to these "freedoms" coming from the US appear to be mainly bad.
Our King BUSH has effectively set democracy in the middle east back by another 50 years with his current crusade and I would gather that any sort of moderation that once again is taking hold in Iran is starting to erode itself.
My mom used to live and work underground in Saudi and her view is that most Muslim women in Saudi respect hold their dress as kind of a badge of honor, while privately the wish they had some more liberal views within their men folk.
118 - moonraven
Christopher,
Was that an infantile comment you just posted?
Or was that the comment of a mature person who should have better manners?
119 - moonraven
Martin,
It's a complex question--sort of like the chicken and the egg--as the Saudi men complain that their MOTHERS are the ones forcing them into arranged marriages.
120 - Martin Lav
I guess that means their Mother F_ckers....
121 - moonraven
Could you explain that statement in English--without the possessive form of they?
122 - Christopher Rose
No Moonraven it's what is known as a joke.
I've thought about your remark that your debating style is "confrontational" and decided that it isn't acceptable.
I confront Dave all the time, and I'd confront Clavos too for his political views; however, I don't do it with such juvenile aggression and rudeness as you employ, which I find too tedious to read. Shark at least uses comedy to lighten up the relentless bile - and has even been known to write articles too...
123 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"No Moonraven it's what is known as a joke. I've thought about your remark that your debating style is "confrontational" and decided that it isn't acceptable.
You have a sense of humor too, Chris. You just don't realize it.
124 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy: I'm one of the funniest guys you'll never meet!
125 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Anything you say Chris. Lemme know when you start doing stand-up on podcasts and I'll try to tune in...