Iraq is now a thriving democracy - precisely as George W. Bush predicted four years ago today.
Four years ago today, on May 1, 2003, combat operations in Iraq ended. That nation is now a thriving democracy in a peaceful Middle East where freedom bells chime.…
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26 - Arch Conservative
No one wants to join in and participate in an unpopular war.
I was amking the point that so called liberals who care so much about human life only do it selectively when it reinforces their leftist ideology Dave.
Leslie chastised anyone who in any way ever supported the war as being callous and completely uncaring about the 3000 American lives that have been lost.
Since she is sitting so high on the horse I think it is a completely valid point to make in pointing out that Leslie does not seem to be all that compassionate herself when she can dismiss millions of American babies being murdered without so much as a second thought and then tell reiterate again how heartless are those who may have supported this war at any point in time.
Nalle..do you have any idea the number of times I have written a post condemning abortion on this site only to have some leftist come along with the response "well gee you care so much about babies but how about all the people dying in Bush's war." If the moonbats are allowed to make the comparison then why am I not allowed to?
27 - Leslie Bohn
Mr. C:
Can't argue with my actual words, I guess.
Unfortunately, anyone can go back and read what I wrote. I chastised YOU for being callous when you called my lamentation for the 3000+ dead "lame."
It's very amusing that you keep flogging your abortion red herring without even knowing my position on the matter.
28 - Arch Conservative
Well the safe money's on your being a card carrying member of the leftist guard that holds "abortion is a choice not a baby."
If I am wrong why don't you enlighten me.
29 - Leslie Bohn
Mr. C:
I have tried to enlighten you in every post in which I've addressed you, alas.
Abortion has nothing to do with the performance of President Bush on the deck of the Abe Lincoln, or with my lamenting the deaths of 3300+ soldiers, so, er, it's none of your business.
But please keep in mind that I've never attributed to you any ideas that you haven't expressed. It's called honesty. Of course, I acknowledge that it's easier to support your position honestly when the facts are on your side.
30 - Arch Conservative
You keep saying I attributed a position to you which you have never expreseed and yet you will still not inform us all as to your views on abortion. So I'm going to go on assuming that you're a die hard leftist pro-choice gleeful advocate of infanticide.
If you don't like it that's just too fucking bad.
I guess you've never compared and contrasted two issue sthat had some common aspects before Leslie?
From your refusal to see the obvious points on which the war casualties in Iraq and the casualties here at home in the abortion mills can be compared and contrasted it seems as if you're motivation lies not with a desire to express sincere concern for the deaths of our soldiers but rather a desire to blindly bash Bush.
31 - zingzing
someone (i think leslie) brought up the anti-abortionists embrace of the death penalty. how do you reconcile that with your "anti-death" posistion? and how is it that pro-war people generally fall into the anti-abortion crowd? and then they want to call hypocrisy on those who are anti-war, anti-death penalty and pro-choice? how can you be fine with your own hypocrisy and not with another person's?
i mean, i definitely see the hypocrisy of the situation (being anti-war and pro-choice). it's a conundrum. but, archie, calling leslie (who hasn't said one way or the other) a hypocrite is just a good way to point out your own.
plus, abortion has nothing to do with war. so it's a non-sequitor. i think she's saying, let's keep it on target.
wait. is leslie a man or a woman? my apologies either way. it's one of those names. i have one of those names. so i am sympathetic.
32 - Arch Conservative
someone (i think leslie) brought up the anti-abortionists embrace of the death penalty. how do you reconcile that with your "anti-death" posistion?
That is a very fair question zing and I unlike Leslie, answer fair questions when they are asked of me.
When a baby is murdered by every leftist's favorite pasttime, abortion, it is the taking of an innocent life and usually for no good reason. When someone is executed it is because they have committed a horrendous crime against society or individuals in society, usually murder. The death penalty is a form of punishment for a person who has done something very wrong and usually has no redeeming value to society at all and that is why I feel it is justified.
"and how is it that pro-war people generally fall into the anti-abortion crowd? and then they want to call hypocrisy on those who are anti-war, anti-death penalty and pro-choice? how can you be fine with your own hypocrisy and not with another person's?"
Another fair and valid question. Here's my answer.
I am not prowar in the sense that I would ever desire war unless all other options had been exhausted. As for the current war I thought it was a good idea at the outset but now believe it has been so mismanaged and bungeled that it has disolved into a complete lost cause. In a war, or at least the present one, the people who died on our side were volunteer soldiers who knew that they might someday be called to die for their nation. An abortion involves a baby who has no choice in the matter. Also I believe that the motivation for wars is usually to serve some greater good for a nation that justifies the casualties that may take place. With an abortion, the motivation is usually for the mother to do whatever she can (ie kill her baby) so that her lifestyle won't be comprimised or cramped in any way and I don't feel that this is justifiable whatsoever.
if Leslie doesn't want me to assume she's a die hard pro-choice person then why doesn't Leslie just come out and tell me I'm wrong about her views on abortion? She/he refuses to do this so I am just going to assume that this silence means I'm right and I most likely am. Quacks like a duck and all that.
Lastly zing....if you're so insitent on belieeiving that abortion and war are so wholly unalike that they should never be discussed as being in any way relative to each other then I would appreciate it if you would reiterate that sentiment in coming to my aid the next time I am discussing my opposition to abortion and some leftist comes along with "oh but you're fine with George Bush's warthat's killed 400,000 innocent irqis you war mongering right winger."
Fair enough?
33 - Zedd
Zing
i mean, i definitely see the hypocrisy of the situation (being anti-war and pro-choice). it's a conundrum.
Actually the pro choice position doesn't see the embryo as a human being. Its an embryo so the laws that apply to human (moral and civic) don't apply.
The anti abortion view says its wrong to kill human beings and embryos are human beings. The reasoning should apply to wars, and gun control, state sponsored killing.
34 - Arch Conservative
"Actually the pro choice position doesn't see the embryo as a human being. Its an embryo so the laws that apply to human (moral and civic) don't apply."
then how do you explain the pro-choice position on partial birth abortion Zedd?
At that stage in the game there is absolutely no physician that would state that it's an embryo and not a human being. In fact the consensus is that the baby is in almost all cases, viable outside the mother at that point. yet we have all the pro-choicers in an uproar last week due to the supreme court's decision to uphold the pba ban.
35 - zingzing
zedd: "Actually the pro choice position doesn't see the embryo as a human being. Its an embryo so the laws that apply to human (moral and civic) don't apply."
now, zedd. you know i am pro-choice. and i agree that an embryo is not a human being, only a potential human being. still... while i don't see abortion as murder, it does mean that a life will not take place. i can see where the anti-abortion crowd is coming from. i myself would be very against aborting any parasite made up, in part, of my spunk.
my reason for this is that i have known a couple of young women who had abortions (neither of them mine) and they certainly had horrible doubts about the decision they had made. i wouldn't want my potential wife/mother of my child to suffer from such a thing. also, that's my fuckin kid too and i want my say... there probably are circumstances that would push me towards abortion, but those would have to be pretty extreme.
that said, i could never bring myself to judge a woman for making what she thinks is the best decision, as long as she thinks long and hard about the issue in front of her.
archie: "then how do you explain the pro-choice position on partial birth abortion Zedd?"
zedd may hold different beliefs than i do, but i think that partial birth abortion, especially if the baby is viable, is just wrong. unless, of course, there is some medical reason for it. i mean, if you could just pull it out instead of killing it... why not just pull it out and put it up for adoption? i dunno. it doesn't seem like much of an issue to me.
36 - zingzing
and archie, as for your "would you back me up next time some leftie calls me out on the war when we are discussing abortion" question... i would, if your views on the war were unknown. actually, i quite admire the fact that you finally agree that bush royally fucked this one up. takes a bit of balls.
still, you can't be pro-war and anti-abortion and crow about it... war doesn't just kill our soldiers, it kills plenty of innocents as well. iraqis certainly wouldn't be dying in the numbers they are right now if it weren't for us being there. just the way it is.
37 - Arch Conservative
unless, of course, there is some medical reason for it.
Well zing the curent ban has a medical exception clause in it but that still wasn't good enough for many on the pro-choice side.
Another thing that I'd liek to add that rarely ever gets mentioned about abortion is the percentage of women who have more than one. According to the center for bioethical reform 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have already had one.
That is a staggering statistic that undercuts the 'it's a rare but tragic" bs the left offers.
38 - zingzing
look, archie, and i'm going to put this bluntly... some women are whores who get knocked up frequently because they are too fucking stupid to use a goddamn condom.
there.
here's another truth: some abortions are unecessary, and really the woman should be forced (not by me, not by the government, but by her own concience) to bring the baby to term because she (and he) should learn to take responsibility for the things she (and he) do (does). doo-rang-doo-rang.
abortions should be legal because they are sometimes necessary for the mother. that's her choice. but women who have multiple abortions for the simple fact that they can't keep a man's dick covered are just fucking up their own bodies.
the best abortion is the one that ends up in a plastic bag with spermicide all over it. i've had millions, maybe billions, i dunno.
39 - Leslie Bohn
Mr. C:
To answer your question would indicate that I thought it was relevant. I'll answer any relevant question about the topic. I haven't been "silent" on the matter, I've told you why I wasn't answering. You may continue to assume whatever you want, to the endless amusement of the logical minds who read this, especially me.
The two topics are simply not related in any meaningful way, so your arguments are fallacious.
Glad we agree the war should end.
BTW, it wasn't me who asked the death penalty question, as I try not to make arguments based on assuming someone else's position.
40 - bliffle
George Bush's brilliant campaign in Iraq and subsequent pacification of the mideast and stemming the onslaught of the islamo-facsist barbarians has clearly demonstrated that he is the Most Valuable Human Being. More valuable even than Mother Theresa and Whitey Ford rolled into one, if you can imagine such a thing (and I'm sure that the low mind of a BC auditor CAN imagine such a thing!)
But his life is in danger! Yes, danger, of a kind so mathematically certain as to be incontestable.
At this very moment there is an asteroid somewhere in space hurtling toward our planet with unstoppable force. When it strikes earth huge upheavals will rent the earths mantel, huge lava flows will occur, dust and debris will be thrown in the air for thousands of years, life forms will be extinguished, entire species will disappear.
But salvation is near! Scientists report that they have hypothesized a planetary system similar to our solar system some hundreds of billions of light-years away, that could perhaps support our form of life. Hallelujah! The Hidden Hand of God (or is it yaweh, or is it allah, or Zeus, or Adam Smith?).
But we have only enough energy on earth to send one person to that saving solar system. Who better than our Most Valuable Human?
Send Bush into outer space! Do it now! Don't waste time!
It's your patriotic duty.
41 - Clavos
You have too much time on your hands, Bliffthuselah...
42 - Dr Dreadful
Leslie,
It was me who asked the death penalty question.
Arch immediately proved my point by differentiating between his anti-abortion and pro-death penalty positions.
43 - Arch Conservative
Which point did I prove Dreadful?
You, as well as zing asked how I could be pro-life and at the same time support the death penalty. I answered your question. You may not have agreed with my reasoning but at least I did provide an answer based on my beliefs and views. That's more than can be said for Leslie. With her if you go off topic even slightly it's "on no we can't talk about that....that wasn't the topic of this post.....we can't talk about it....i won't talk about it...no..... never...."
44 - Leslie Bohn
Actually, Dr. D, I don't think it's necessarily a contradiction to be anti-abortion and pro death penalty. Obviously, if one is just against the abstract idea of "killing," then it is.
But I think it's a logically reasonable (if morally repugnant) to be in favor of killing people judged guilty of horrendous crimes and at the same time be against the killing of people who are guilty of nothing, if one considers an unborn person a person.
I say "morally repugnant" because I oppose allowing a government to kill its own citizens under any circumstances.
45 - Arch Conservative
Let me just add that while I support the death penalty I do not support it nearly as much as I oppose abortion.
If the death penatly were to be repealled nationally I don't think I'd be that upset as long as those who were on death row for their crimes remained in prison for their lives as punishment.
And I guess it may be logical for one who does not consider it a baby but rather a fetus. What I don't understand is how any decent person can actually look at a picture of the aborted taken as early as late in the first trimester when arms, legs, hands, feet, a head, eyes....etc have all been formed and say that it is not a human being....say that a life was not taken.
And I am really trying to be reasonable and I can appreciate that it is probably a very difficult and trying decision for many women to make when they decide to abort their baby. However difficult it may be though I still believe that a decent caring person would decide to have the baby anyway even though they may face hardship in their life, because it is the right thing to do. Often times deciding to make the right choice in life also means picking the hardest choice or hardest route and abortion is the perfect example of this dilemma.
Aside from the individual woman and her choice though I am disgusted by the lengths to which the "abortion industry will go to." When the people that run planned parenthood decide that it's a good idea to manufacture a t-shirt that says "I had an abortion" on it and offer it to their clients as if it were something to be proud of and celebrate then it is time that we ALL ask just how damaged and twisted these people are.
46 - Dr Dreadful
I don't think it's necessarily a contradiction to be anti-abortion and pro death penalty.
I don't think it is either. But there was Arch, insisting that you declare your position on abortion, as if it were contradictory to be pro-choice and anti-war. So I offered him the analogous question of how one could be anti-abortion but pro-death penalty.
Lo and behold, suddenly it was OK to hold contrary positions on 'life' issues.
47 - Franco
#22 â€" Leslie Bohn
"When the President and his apologists trumpet this slogan, we must ask ourselves if it's true, or if it just sounds good. Is there actual evidence for it? Does it make sense? Does a war there actually prevent terrorism here? How?"
The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, just to name a few well known international alliances of militant organizations that have become household names are all well organized and well funded groups, and they all appreciate your confusions to the answers to those questions Leslie.
48 - Zedd
Zing / Arch
I don't support partial birth abortion unless the mother's life is in danger.
Under normal circumstances, if the fetus is viable then it is murder in my opinion. The fetus is now a human being.
Also, if you've been able to have an abortion for months, what compelling reason would there be to cause you to have to wait until the fetus has developed into a human being in order for you to abort the pregnancy? Seems sadistic.
Perhaps in the future they will come up with artificial wombs for viable fetuses that are not wanted by their host parent. Seems rather cold and sterile for the tots though. Perhaps tapes of a loving woman's voice, movement, external touch and the temperature of the womb could be simulation. May end up being a better place to develop than what some mothers provide.
That innovation may however encourage two semester instead of full trimester pregnancies for money...
With time all of these types of issues will be solved and new ones will emerge. Then the next ice age will hit and we'll start over :o)
Anyway, my point was that it is pointless to discuss the death of fetuses vs living viable humans. The premise is that fetuses aren't humans yet.
49 - Arch Conservative
"Lo and behold, suddenly it was OK to hold contrary positions on 'life' issues."
Hey I at least offered an explanation where Leslie did not.
"Perhaps in the future they will come up with artificial wombs for viable fetuses that are not wanted by their host parent."
Perhaps in the future crisis pregnancy centers which provide counseling and aid to women seeking to have their baby rather than abort it will get millions of dollars in government funding the way planned abortionhood does now.
Perhaps the butchers that run plan abortionhood will grow a concscince and stop using propaganda to get peopel to support abortion
50 - Zedd
Arch
Planned Parenthood does provide counseling and aid to women seeking to have their baby. They do that all day, all of the time.
You have no idea what Planned Parenthood is do you? Stop talking about it because you are way off and you sound silly. Its just a clinic where women go for all gynecological issues. Just because they also perform abortions doesn't mean that that is what they are for. Its just a woman's clinic. However men can come if they have reproductive concerns or STDs. Most women go there for cheaper birth control pills.
I personally think drinking has ruined more lives than anything in history. I abhor it. So many women have been abused, raped and killed because of drunken husbands and boyfriends all over the world. So many children have been beaten and abandoned by alcoholic parents. Husbands have lived distressed and in shame because of wives who are alcoholics. Adults live their lives lacking confidence because of childhoods surrounded by alcoholics. The elderly are abused, taken advantage off and forced to cower in their late years because of children with this evil disease. So many individuals have lost their lives due to this drug that we as a society celebrate.
Alcohol is legal. Whether I like it or not. Also we know that making it illegal doesn't work. It is indeed a destructive element. However I don't think it makes sense to protest at places that sell alcohol. ITS LEGAL! Should I protest people who drink? ITS LEGAL! The only thing I can do is not drink.
51 - bliffle
#41 â€" May 4, 2007 @ 11:33AM â€" Clavos
"You have too much time on your hands,..."
Perhaps. But at least I'm on topic. Are you?
52 - Franco
#48 â€" Zedd
"Anyway, my point was that it is pointless to discuss the death of fetuses vs living viable humans. The premise is that fetuses aren't humans yet."
In your opinion.
53 - Zedd
Franco
In your opinion.
In the opinion of pro choice people. So it is futile to discuss the topic by making those comparisons. Its futile.
That is the shortest response that I've read from you. Wow.
54 - Clavos
"In the opinion of pro choice people. So it is futile to discuss the topic by making those comparisons. Its futile."
It's futile? Do you understand the nature and purpose of discussion and argument?
There are two sides to every argument...
So, the pro choice people's premise is the only valid one, and that ends the discussion because to argue against it is "futile".
Bizarre.
55 - Arch Conservative
Zedd.......I know what planned parenthood is you dolt.
They are the nation's largest abortion provider and their largest source of revenue is abortion.
Plain and simple...they are in the abortion business...everything else is window dressing
56 - Dr Dreadful
Strange, Arch... my wife and her sisters have been to Planned Parenthood a number of times in the past and not once were they offered an abortion. Shoddy service I call it. They should complain to the management!
57 - Clavos
DD,
Your anecdotal evidence about your wife and sisters-in-law's experiences with PP, while cute, doesn't actually refute AC's claim in #55.
But perhaps that wasn't your intent...
58 - Dr Dreadful
I just like to yank Arch's chain every once in a while, Clav. Interesting some of the stuff that flushes out...