Biden and Palin debate at Wash U with Gwen Ifill moderating the next great meme: truth.
Gov. Sarah Palin stunned the media world and working Americans with her Katie Couric interview. We were wizened with her nuggets of wisdom. Since her debut she has tried repeatedly to convince the American people or maybe just John McCain that she is VP material: “You can’t blink ... I am willing, ready and able to serve as his running mate.” But was she convincing in Thursday night's debate with Senator Joseph Biden? Did she do what she had to do — save face?…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - troll
...I preferred digger actions (and still do) - the weathermen were too PC
27 - Dan(Miller)
Ruvy,
You refer to the Aging, Arthritic and Loony. I know that I fit into the first two categories, but feel that I am only partially loony. That probably explains why I agree with you, at least insofar as what is best for the U.S. is concerned.
Zeus help us!
Dan(Miller)
28 - Deano
Heloise,
Are you sure the title of this article is correct? Shouldn't it be Sarah's Standup Debut?
29 - Lisa Solod Warren
Dave: Enough with this Ayers shit already.
30 - Ruvy
More Huffing and Puffing, Lisa? Cute....
31 - Jordan Richardson
If there is going to be talk about the tenuous link between Obama and Ayers (and there should be), there ought to also be talk about McCain and G. Gordon Liddy.
32 - Dan(Miller)
Lisa,
The Huffington Post -- ah yes, truth we can believe in, sans bias and spin. Let's stop talking about Senator Obama's associations and how they may (or may not) have affected him, and focus instead on the really important stuff. There are many critical issues of national importance, such as Governor Palin's pregnancy/non pregnancy, whether she winks too often, whether Senator Biden's hair plugs are falling out, and whether Senator McCain is a good typist. Now there are some issues we can really get our teeth into; those, of course, who still have any.
Dan(Miller)
33 - Lisa Solod Warren
Dan, read it, the Huffington Post cites many man other sources. Be slightly open minded before you decide to be closed minded.
34 - DaveNalle
Same old story. If McCain had worked closely with an organization or person linked to some racist killing or the KKK in the 60's who hadn't repented well 'that'd be different'. The left team would be squawking up a storm and Nalle et al would be playing it down.
No, Doug. If McCain were linked to the KKK or some other racist group I'd be out front in condemning him for it. See my prior commentary on people like Ron Paul, Rick Santorum or various figures of the religious right. I don't want those kinds of people involved in the GOP in any way, and the fact that they claim to be republicans makes their associations even less excusable.
Both parties have their extremist fringes, and I find both equally unacceptable. The key difference between McCain and Obama is that McCain is genuinely not part of the ideological fringe, while overwhelming evidence places Obama on the extreme fringe of his party and an adherent of ideologies which I find unacceptable in any candidate from any party.
Dave
35 - Lisa Solod Warren
The fringe of his party. You are delusional.... and completely OCD about this. You can't let go of it, can you?
36 - DaveNalle
Ruvy, I find ironic that you can see the Alinsky connection clearly and understand what it means about Obama, while so many of the partisans here just go "nananananana" and hold their hands over their ears when you talk about it. Obama has written extensively on his admiration for Alinsky and on his efforts to pursue Alinsky's goals in his own work.
Michelle Obama quoted Alinsky in her DNC speech, btw. Alinsky's son publicly praised Obama for completing his father's work, describing Obama as a 'disciple' of Alinsky. Obama wrote a chapter in the book After Alinsky outlining how he applied Alinsky's ideas in his work as a 'community organizer'.
Dave
37 - Ruvy
I received the following as an e-mail from one of the Jewish lists I belong to. It is written by Naomi Ragen, an Israeli of American extraction and a novelist who keeps a close eye (like lots of us here) on the political scene in America. I apologize for not having URL to this. Maybe the apologist from the Huffington Post would like to read this - and then Huff and Puff her little fanny off....
From Naomi Ragen:
To All My Friends,
This is long, but, please take the time to read it.
This election has me very worried. So many things to consider.
I watch all the news channels, jumping from one to another. I must say this drives my husband crazy. But, I feel if you view MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News, you might get some middle ground to work with.
About six months ago, I started thinking "where did the money come from for Obama". I have four daughters who went to College, and we were middle
class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked hard and there were lots of student loans.
I started looking into Obama's life. Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his
time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies.
"Barry" (that was the name he used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan .
During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a "round the world" trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia , next Hyderabad in India , three weeks in Karachi , Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family.
My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they where in college. When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York . It is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry.
Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap! to say the least. Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe.
After Columbia , he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000 a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New York.
By "chance" he met Antoin "Tony" Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria , and a real estate developer in Chicago . Rezko has been convicted of fraud and bribery this year. Rezko, was named "Entrepreneur of the Decade" by the Arab-American Business and Professional Association".
About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School . Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School ? Where did he get the money for Law School ? More student loans? After Law school, he went back to Chicago .
Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? They represented "Rezar" which Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago . In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with "seed money" for his U.S. Senate race.
In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwoood District of Chicago for $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student Loans - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price.
The London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko.
Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy?
On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley advisor to Obama was "sacked" after the press found out he was having regular contacts with "Hamas ", which controls Gaza and is connected with Iran . This past week, buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq , he asked their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is elected, and he will "Take care of things".
Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that where born in Pakistan ? They are in charge of all those "small" Internet campaign contribution for Obama. Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East ?
And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on "This Week" with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, "My Muslim faith". When questioned, "he make a mistake". Some mistake!
All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008. Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my own, why haven't
all of our "intelligent" members of the press been reporting this?
A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - "Beware of the enemy from within"!!!
38 - Lisa Solod Warren
If none of you who support the Republican ticket can see that McCain/Palin are trying to pull a last minute Willie Horton on Obama then you're as amoral as they are.... I am truly appalled at Palin's bizarre pulling this Ayers shit out of her shoe at the list minute. It's ugly beyond belief and Lee Atwater would be very very proud of her.
39 - Lisa Solod Warren
I guess that should be "can't see."
I really am astonished at the stunts the Repubs are pulling here....
40 - DaveNalle
The fringe of his party. You are delusional.... and completely OCD about this. You can't let go of it, can you?
Lisa, the facts are there if you'd take your blinders off. The reason I can't let go of it is that this is the very heart of why Obama is so incredibly dangerous and why he has to be opposed at any cost. Why should I give up when it is the destruction of our nation and institutions which is at stake?
Dave
41 - Matthew T. Sussman
"McCain/Palin are trying to pull a last minute Willie Horton on Obama"
Not a bad idea, but maybe trying to pull a Denny McClain is a better idea.
42 - Baronius
Troll - Fine. Let Obama come out and say that shooting cops and robbing banks was right, in the context of the Vietnam War. Ditto with the orgies, drugs, and Maoism. Just as long as Obama stops pretending that he has an innocent casual friendship with a former terrorist.
The thing that struck me most about the debate was Biden's flat-out lie about Obama being willing to meet with Ahmadinejad. That was a lie. There is always plenty of spin, favorable interpretation, broad brushing, et cetera in debates. Too much of it. But Biden flat-out lied about Obama's statement. Biden was on the stage during the debate when Obama said he'd meet unconditionally with the leadership of Iran. During the VP debate, Biden said it never happened.
I don't expect much from debate coverage, but recognizing a baldfaced lie is essential.
43 - Ruvy
At comment #36: Ruvy, I find ironic that you can see the Alinsky connection clearly and understand what it means about Obama, while so many of the partisans here just go "nananananana" and hold their hands over their ears when you talk about it.
Aw shucks, Dave, how many of my articles have you published here which talked about overthrowing a regime? How many times have I mentioned here that I am a socialist, and damned proud of it? Put the two together.
What does it take for you to figure out that I'm preaching revolution? The big difference is that the revolution I foresee is one that is very different from the ones we have all witnessed or read about in our history books - one of Biblical proportions....
You need to be a revolutionary to see it and not lose the thread of what it means.
44 - Jordan Richardson
Baronius, I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising that one of Biden's "lies" stuck out more to you than the horde of Palin deceptions.
Dave, I wonder if you could be a touch more dramatic. "Opposed at any cost?" Really? Any cost?
I also wonder if you could ever apply the same scrutiny to Obama that you do to McCain, ideological differences aside. Of course, this is from someone who pretty much declares liberal ideas as "dangerous" as a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not sure expecting balance, fairness, and justice from you is reasonable.
Ruvy, thanks for the laugh. I always get a kick out of the Jewish email list you're on because it seems to me that the list contains some of the nuttiest individuals around. This idea of wondering where Obama "got the money" to go to Harvard or to go on his trip can easily be answered without resorting to speculative, paranoid bullshit. When is the world going to end again?
Naturally, actually checking facts and looking into things seems to be hard work for a frightening collective of posters here. The instant dismissal of Lisa's link is evidence of that.
45 - Clavos
Be slightly open minded before you decide to be closed minded.
Ah, sweet, sweet irony...
46 - Dr Dreadful
Ruvy @ #37:
FYI.
Always best to fact-check these things before passing them on... especially if the e-mail finishes off by saying things like, "You can look up all of this on Wikipedia" or even "I checked this story on Snopes and they said it was true!"
47 - Matthew T. Sussman
Dr. D:
So you're ... saying I didn't have to send that last e-mail off to 10 friends in order to meet my true love?
48 - Mark Saleski
Ah, sweet, sweet irony...
yeah....kinda like how sarah quoted one part of the times article while conveniently ignoring the next.
boyo, i'd love to meet just one politician who didn't do that.
49 - Baronius
Jordan, I know that partisan people are lousy analysts. But the whole argument about 94 or 35 tax votes seems trivial to me. To definitively say that Obama never said something you heard him say, well, there's no wiggle room there. I'd hope that if "my" side lied like that, I'd recognize it.
50 - Dr Dreadful
Matt,
Let's just say that there is a gentleman in Nigeria who is willing to share a substantial lottery prize with you. For details, check your e-mail.
51 - Jordan Richardson
Baronius, does Palin's lie about McCain health care taxes (which her own campaign said wasn't true) seem trivial to you? Or how about her lie regarding McCain and the tobacco industry (he opposed expanding the SCHIP children’s health insurance program because it would increase tobacco taxes)?
What about Palin's lie that she was the first governor to form a climate change subcabinet when 28 other states did so before she did?
Or perhaps her lie about "pushing for" divestment (re: Darfur) was trivial (she in fact opposed divestment)? Or when she said that the United States was down to "pre-troop surge numbers" in Iraq? Was that trivial?
Honestly, Baronius, how many of these deceptions (and there are more) are you willing to discard as trivial?
52 - Clavos
Ah, sweet, sweet irony...
yeah....kinda like how sarah quoted one part of the times article while conveniently ignoring the next.
boyo, i'd love to meet just one politician who didn't do that.
mark,
I probably have a much lower opinion of politicians than you do, so I agree with you there.
However, my comment was directed not at a pol, but at Lisa, who is easily one of the most closed-minded, party line spouting commenters on these threads.
53 - Ruvy
DD,
You seem to miss the point of Mrs. Ragen's article - just like the folks at Snopes did. Her point is that the folks from the Arab world who surrounded Obama when he was a "youth" are all there now - swinging big money bats.
The question of where Obama got the money was probably what started Mrs. Ragen wondering and asking questions. And for all the dismissal in the tone of the Snopes piece calling her a liar, they do not account for how Obama got the scratch to be a world traveller in his "youth".
Perhaps Mrs. Ragen could have answered the questions about the school loans in her piece - it might have shut the folks at Snopes up - and it might not have. There is nothing to guarantee that Smopes is non-partisan, DD, or objective. Perhaps they are as non-partisan as the NYT, and you seem unwilling to question their reputation as a "debunker of record".
The NYT, long heralded as the "newspaper of record" has been nothing but a propaganda rag for decades - at least since the days when they automaticlaly condemned the JDL while prostituting themselves to the Nigerian government to get exclusives on the civil war there in 1969-70. That is a point you might wish to remember. I have a long memory, and a damned goood one. I still remember the days when Senator Fulbright was called Senator "Halfbright" and "Quarterbright" in the Daily News. Dan Miller can fill you in if that sounds a bit mysterious to you.... That is a point that you also might wish to remember.
54 - Baronius
Jordan, I was unfamiliar with the lie/distortion about tobacco, so I looked around online.
First of all, Palin said, "look at the tobacco industry" as an example of McCain pushing for regulations.
During his career, McCain has pushed to raise cigarette taxes, put the FDA in charge of regulating nicotene, and restrict tobacco advertising targeted to minors. He has also recently voted against cigarette taxes.
You can argue about McCain's effectiveness or his consistency in light of the recent vote. But to call "look at the tobacco industry" a lie? That's nonsense. The statement isn't a lie. The only way you could consider Palin's one unspecific reference to tobacco to be a lie is if you're reading it off a list of talking points.
Like I said, Biden made a specific statement about a specific thing that he witnessed that he knew to be false. I can't get past that.
55 - Dr Dreadful
Her point is that the folks from the Arab world who surrounded Obama when he was a "youth" are all there now - swinging big money bats.
No shit, Sherlock. If an old friend of yours were running for president, wouldn't you be inclined to throw your support behind him and help him in any way you could?
The number of Arabs supporting Obama is dwarfed by the number of non-Arabs supporting him. Nice red herring, man.
The question of where Obama got the money was probably what started Mrs. Ragen wondering and asking questions.
And I rather wonder about Mrs Ragen. It really isn't that hard to get a college grant, loan or scholarship, even in America. Perhaps if she'd obtained one or two herself, she wouldn't need to wonder.
Although actually, Naomi Ragen didn't write the e-mail: she received it (stop me if you've heard this before...) from a 'friend of a friend' and merely reproduced it on her blog, with a caveat that she would correct any factual errors pointed out to her. (Although the latter has happened, the former has not.)
And for all the dismissal in the tone of the Snopes piece calling her a liar, they do not account for how Obama got the scratch to be a world traveller in his "youth".
The same way hosts of other young people travel the world, I imagine: starting off with just the money for their initial airfare - and working to earn their further passage.
Or perhaps borrowing or being gifted the money by his friends and relatives along the way?
There's actually very little limit to the number of ingenious ways to finance such travel. A girl we met in Peru last week, who was on a seven-month tour of Latin America, is a human resources specialist who made herself redundant and used the compensation package to bankroll her trip!
There is nothing to guarantee that Smopes is non-partisan, DD, or objective.
But they do cite their sources, Ruvy, and they're by no means the only site which has debunked this and many other nonsense e-mails.
56 - troll
Baronius #42 - you appear to be confusing Ayers and Dohrn with Boudin and Gilbert...the former pair of desperados had already spent a decade on the run and had turned themselves in to the authorities before the robbery took place
57 - Dave Nalle
I also wonder if you could ever apply the same scrutiny to Obama that you do to McCain, ideological differences aside. Of course, this is from someone who pretty much declares liberal ideas as "dangerous" as a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not sure expecting balance, fairness, and justice from you is reasonable.
Not sure I follow, Jordan. You're saying that you regularly declare liberal ideas to be "dangerous"? I haven't noticed you doing that. Even if you do have something against liberals I'll still treat you as fairly as I can. As a liberal I try to consider all points of view, even the most reactionary and assess them based on reason before deciding on their merits.
Dave
58 - Lisa Solod Warren
Well that is the pot calling the kettle black, Clav. Dave can't see the forest for the trees. And you can't see anything for your cynicism. You don't seem to give a damn either way. And Dave is convinced the world will end if Obama becomes president. He's willing for any and all measures, no matter how foul or untrue, to be used against the man. If I am so closed minded, then how come fifty percent of Americans are voting for Obama? How come so many others on this list also write opinon pieces supporting Obama? How come so many other writers for so many other respected newspapers like The New York Times (even if you don't respect them) and Time and even the Wall Street Journal, and columnists who are conservative like David Brooks and George Will to name but a couple, question both McCain's and Palin's abilities and credentials?
I don't support everything the Democrats do. I didn't and don't support the bailout. I don't think Biden is perfect. Nor do I think Obama hung the moon. I merely think he is the superior candidate, far superior to McCain in temperment, intelligence and judgment and will do a far better job at guiding our country out of this mess that the Republicans and George Bush have gotten it in to. You can try and argue that Bush hasn't ruined our international reputation, you can try and argue that going into Iraq was a good idea, you can even try and argue that Palin was a good choice for McCain's veep, but there are countless others besides me who will argue the other side and that makes them neither closed minded nor party hacks.
Our positions are intelligent and well thought out. Just because we don't agree with you means very little in the scheme of things. I don't just go off spouting doom and gloom. I give sources and I support my positions. If you don't choose to read my sources, so be it. If you choose to ignore the value of those sources, so be that, too.
There is plenty of evidence, in the newsmedia, some of which you must find credible, that supports McCain as a candidate who dissembles at best, lies often, can't remember what he said when, has changed his position all too often, has been behind the Republican party for most of the past two dozen years, has sold his soul for this presidency despite what George Bush tried to do to him last time, opposes many things that are good and right for this country, is easily manipulated, does not respect women, is far too old to govern the U.S., and a whole host of other things that make him an unsuitable leader.
His running mate is not as dangerous only because she won't have as much power, unless she is allowed to wrest it from McCain as Cheney did, or unless McCain falls ill and dies, but her phoney baloney middle American bullshit does not fool me and I am shocked that it fools anyone; she is grasping, selfish and in way over her head.
I think we have a clear choice. You may call that what you like. I call it it informed.
59 - Baronius
Not really, Troll. Ayers and Dohrn were part of the group, and have never (to my knowledge) denounced it. And they used to love denouncing things. The Weather Underground may have been ineffective terrorists, but they did make and plant bombs. They led riots and fled prosecution. They were "guilty as sin" (Ayer's words).
If you want to embrace them, fine. If Ayers and Dohrn want to continue to embrace them, fine. Obama hasn't had the decency to come out and acknowledge his ties to Ayers and Dohrn, or even to denounce them as he did with his spiritual advisor. Of course, that would be complicated. Rezko and Wright aren't the men Obama knew, but Ayers and Dohrn are the people Obama knew but they didn't used to be?
60 - handyguy
The 'radical marxist fringe' label Nalle insists on applying to Obama is so over the top...but actually it's not that unusual in the canon of DN's rhetoric.
It's hard not to notice that the heavy breathing, 'he's incredibly dangerous' stuff only began when it appeared that Obama was likely to win.
Back in Dec/Jan/Feb, it was Hillary Clinton who was 'crazy' and 'incredibly dangerous.' [Most of us silly Democrats consider her a moderate. Dave, of course, believes he knows better, as always.]
In Oct/Nov 2006, he was warning in apocalyptic terms of the 'anti-American' Democrats and what would happen if they took over Congress. Whatever one's feelings about the effectiveness of the Pelosi House, it has been very far from a radical 'marxist' hotbed. They were never as extremist as Dave seems to need to believe they were, and they've been far more moderate in running the house than they were in opposition - as I, and many other sensible people, predicted.
It's rare that anyone very far from the political center even gets nominated in this country. The three most 'radical' nominees of the last half century were all from the right: Goldwater, Reagan and G W Bush.
Maybe by some measures, Obama is as far left as Reagan was right. But I don't think most people believe that, and it seems to me he's not a doctrinaire anything.
Get out much, Dave? Maybe on Nov 5 you can rejoin the real world, and give yourself, and the rest of us, a breather from the gushing hyperbole.
61 - Baronius
Lisa, you do seem to label all liberals as brilliant and all conservatives as stupid. Sooner or later, all your arguments come down to that. I realize that if you think conservatism is stupid, you'll see all conservatives as stupid. But it sure doesn't make for open-mindedness.
62 - Baronius
Handy, National Journal certainly doesn't see Obama as moderate. They rank him as the most liberal in the Senate: not based upon his rhetoric, or his community-organizing associates, but upon his 2007 voting record.
63 - troll
...Baronius - are crimes against property terrorism - ? NB: no one but weathermen were blown up by weather people bombs
I'm working off of memory here but as I recall the Weather Underground splintered in the mid 70s after the war ended and Ayers went with a group called Prairie Fire that did renounce further 'revolutionary' activity
I can't remember what the group of bank robber/killers called themselves in '81
calling Ayers a terrorist debases the word - but that's politics I guess
64 - Jordan Richardson
Baronius,
Obama hasn't had the decency to come out and acknowledge his ties to Ayers
Didn't he mention this at the Pennsylvania Democratic debate when Hillary Clinton brought it up? Also, his official website addresses the "connection" here.
Baronius, I would also struggle with the Biden claim. But I am equally troubled, if not more troubled, by Palin's issues from the debate. You can choose to focus on one or two of the deceptions if you wish, but a simple Google turns up over 18 Palin deceptions (at the least).
Dave, your "reply" is baffling. Not much more to say there. Unless you thought that I referred to myself as "you," I'll simply take your post as an attempt at humour and move on.
65 - Heloise
My headline today: "Palpable Panic." On Oct 1 on Dave's article I wrote "even after the bailout bill passes the stocks will still sink and stink." Oh boy that was ugly now it has become the "Stink Market" Heloise is so funny.
I sold my stocks last year at its all-time high.
George Will on Sunday echoed Heloise who said "Americans don't elect haters." Will said "Americans don't elect angry men." Same thing, same damn thing.
Then Rove and bunch of other folks all said that McCain has lost the race after I put that shit on the table with my "The Passion of the Candidates."
That girl is always ahead of the political curve.
Heloise
66 - Heloise
part of Diane McWhorter's article from Salon on Pegler:
"Students of history, however, may come to a different conclusion. Since Buckley floats a defense of Pegler while burying the charges against him, let us be clear about who this man was and what he represented. Pegler's career took off in 1933 when he became a nationally syndicated columnist with Scripps-Howard, roared along under the Hearst family, and ended 30 years later under the auspices of a twitchy sect of neo-Nazis and professional racists from the White Citizens Council and the Rev. Billy James Hargis' truly reptilian Christian Crusade. At his peak in the 1930s and 1940s, Pegler was a leading popularizer of one of the most concerted antidemocratic crusades in this country's history: the vicious backlash against the New Deal and the labor movement to which it gave legal protection. This anti-Roosevelt front included the country's major industrialists, anti-Semitic, red-baiting pamphleteers, Congressman Martin Dies' Committee on Un-American Activities, and an assortment of Depression-era demagogues (and men on horseback who conspired with Hitler's agents in this country)."
67 - Baronius
Troll, yeah, I'm okay with calling a member of a group that planted bombs and called for the overthrow of the government a "terrorist". I think that Prairie Fire denounced the Weather Underground's departures from the principles of Marxism-Leninism, but not their bombings or calls to overthrow the government. I could be wrong. Likewise, Jordan, I think that the Annenberg group upon which Ayers and Obama sat on the board still refuses to turn over some of its records. I could be wrong on that too.
Best case scenario: a presidential candidate depicted his relationship with a former communist underground revolutionary as just that of a neighbor, when they were fellow community organizers. That's the best case.
68 - Heloise
Mark Levin is calling all "Jews, unionists" et al to fight Obama's election. He is using code that suggests that Levin's dad does not want to see this country handed over to the likes of (a black man)Barack Obama.
The air waves are seething with sour grapes from Hannity, Levin and our dear, dear Rushbo. I feel fer ya, as Sarah would say.
Heloise
69 - Heloise
Dave question fer ya, just asking mind you, are you taking your anger on Palin out on Heloise? Is that why her little article here sat in the hopper from Thursday night until late Saturday? Hmmm, just wondering.
Is there such a dearth of editors? My stuff is usually published with few editorial changes.
I recall way back a time when Heloise all by her lonesome wrote opinion articles on Obama and was eventually bold enough to say that he could win this thing. And no one here was sweating because Obama didn't have a prayer.
I am in Texas and my daughter is in Illinois. We know Illinois and all the neighboring states will break for Obama.
But here in town I am seeing lots of Obama/Biden signs of the time. Not saying he can win TX but he sure as hell has made a big dent in her rather racist profile.
Heloise
70 - Franco
#63 " troll
no one but weathermen were blown up by weather people bombs
Brian V. McDonnell , a sergeant with the San Franscisco Police Department who received fatal shrapnel wounds from a Weatherman pipe bomb set off on February 16, 1970.In a bombing that took place on February 16, 1970, and that was credited to the Weathermen at the time, a pipe bomb filled with heavy metal staples and lead bullet projectiles was set off on the ledge of a window at the Park Station of the San Francisco Police Department. In the blast, Brian V. McDonnell, a police sergeant, was fatally wounded while Robert Fogarty, another police officer, received severe wounds to his face and legs and was partially blinded.
An FBI informant, Larry Grathwohl, who successfully penetrated the Weathermen organization from the late summer of 1969 until April 1970, later testified to a U.S. Senate subcommittee that Bill Ayers, then a high-ranking member of the organization and a member of its Central Committee had said Dohrn constructed and planted the bomb. Grathwohl testified that Ayers had told him specifically where the bomb was placed (on a window ledge) and what kind of shrapnel was put in it.
Grathwohl said Ayers was emphatic, leading Grathwohl to believe Ayers either was present at some point during the operation or had heard about it from someone who was there. In a book about his experiences published in 1976, Grathwohl wrote that Ayers, who had recently attended a meeting of the group's Central Committee, said Dohrn had planned the operation, made the bomb and placed it herself. In 2008, author David Freddoso commented that "Ayers and Dohrn escaped prosecution only because of government misconduct in collecting evidence against them".
I'm working off of memory here but as I recall the Weather Underground splintered in the mid 70s after the war ended and Ayers went with a group called Prairie Fire that did renounce further 'revolutionary' activity
Prairie Fire
Dohrn was a principal signatory on the group's "Declaration of a State of War" in 1970 that formally declared "war" on the U.S. Government, and completed the group's transformation from political advocacy to violent action. Dohrn also co-wrote and published the subversive manifesto Prairie Fire in 1974, and participated in the covertly-filmed Underground in 1976.
In late 1975, the Weather Underground put out an issue of a magazine, Osawatamie, which carried an article by Dohrn, "Our Class Struggle", described as a speech given to the organization's cadres on September 2 of that year. In the article, Dohrn clearly stated support for Communist ideology:
“We are building a communist organization to be part of the forces which build a revolutionary communist party to lead the working class to seize power and build socialism. [...] We must further the study of Marxism-Leninism within the WUO [Weather Underground Organization]. The struggle for Marxism-Leninism is the most significant development in our recent history. We discovered thru our own experiences what revolutionaries all over the world have found " that Marxism-Leninism is the science of revolution, the revolutionary ideology of the working class, our guide to the struggle”
Dohrn was criticized for a comment she made about the Charles Manson led Tate-LaBianca murders in a speech during the December 1969 "War Council" meeting organized by the Weathermen and attended by about 400 people in Flint, Michigan: "Dig it! First they killed those pigs and then they put a fork in their bellies. Wild!"
Dohrn also charged that her fellow left-wingers showed themselves to be scared "honkies" for not burning down Chicago when Black Panther leader Fred Hampton was killed, and urged her audience to arm themselves and be "a fighting force alongside the blacks." Dohrn's husband, Bill Ayers wrote in 2008 that he always thought Dohrn's controversial statement was uttered to make a political point
Bernardine Dohrn
Weatherman
71 - troll
Franco - I stand corrected concerning who got blown up...and I'll go with 'terrorist' (hesitantly as McDonnell wasn't a civilian) if intent to kill was established - thanks for the correction
in the second half of your comment you have confused the time line - Prairie Fire didn't come into existence until the mid 70s well after the 'War Council' and the 'declaration'
and in any case declaring war on the US gov and adhering to Marxism/Leninism isn't terrorism - targeting civilians is
72 - Cindy D
I haven't seen mention of the site the Obama campaign put up after McCain tipped his hand about launching a smear campaign and after Palin was set out to startit by implying Obama is a terrorist.
Keating Economics
DEVASTATING! McCain is Dead!
73 - Clavos
"America, this is what a feminist looks like - Governor Sarah Palin."
-NOW Los Angeles Chapter President, Shelly Mandel, endorsing Sarah Palin's candidacy.
Ms. Mandel also noted that she is a 30 year veteran of women's rights advocacy and a lifelong Democrat, during her brief speech at a Palin rally in Carson CA.
74 - zingzing
sarah palin is a feminist? or does she just look like one?
"america, this is what a biscuit looks like--a brown hockey puck"
--blogcritics' commenter, zingzing, endorsing brown hockey pucks as food.
zingzing is a noted hockey fan and a southern boy with a taste for biscuits, during comment #74.
75 - Clavos
Funny, zing, but a non sequitur.
But you knew that.