Donald Rumsfeld, George Tenet, and others may face prosecution for war crimes in Germany.
It appears Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is about to be charged with war crimes in Germany. According to a Time Magazine report, several legal advocacy groups are going to file charges on Monday against Rumsfeld, CIA Director George Tenet, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and several generals. The charges are for war crimes on the basis that they had direct knowledge of or oversight of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.…
Article comments
26 - Clavos
Not unfounded, JQP:
From Wikipedia:
"Section 948a of title 10 of the United States Code, as added by the Act, defines an "unlawful enemy combatant" as:"
ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense. (emphasis mine), and;
"The criteria by which a Combatant Status Review Tribunal might determine someone to be an unlawful enemy combatant under section ii of the definition are provided by the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, and referenced in section 10 of the Military Commissions Act of 2006."
Not an "unfounded" accusation.
Once declared, the accused, under the provisions of the MCA, is afforded a trial with defense counsel.
And, regarding Habeas (also from Wiki):
"Legal and Constitutional scholar Robert A. Levy commented that the Act denies habeas rights only to aliens, and that U.S. citizens detained as "unlawful combatants" would still have habeas rights and could challenge their indefinite detention. While formally opposed to the Act, Human Rights Watch has also concluded that the new law limits the scope of trials by military commissions to non-U.S. citizens including all legal aliens. CBS legal commentator Andrew Cohen has commented on this question and writes that the "suspension of the writ of habeas corpus " the ability of an imprisoned person to challenge their confinement in court"applies only to resident aliens within the United States as well as other foreign nationals captured here and abroad" and that "it does not restrict the rights and freedoms and liberties of U.S. citizens anymore than they already have been restricted".
I see no reason why the US doesn't have the right to deny Habeas to non citizens who are committing unlawful acts of war against the US and/or its citizens.
27 - John Q. Public
Clavos, I understand what was written, and that it will need to be forced into judicial review.
Meanwhile, we will just have to disagree. Since there are people being held prior to the MCA being passed, as well as the domestic case involving Jose Padilla.
As I said previously, referring to the German laws as hubris while having black ops prisons, extrodinary renditions to places like Syria, and a Vice President who believes that waterboarding is a "no brainer" creates a fine example of pot and kettle.
28 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"And I find it more than amusing that someone who advocates that a small ethnic minority are the Chosen of God should even begin to mention hubris about any other human being's actions."
I didn't write the Torah, JQP. I happen to believe in its truth, that's all. That is not called "hubris," but "trust."
If that bothers you, tough shit.
29 - John Q. Public
What you believe doesn't bother me at all. That you believe it to be absolutely true is your own affair as well.
Yet time and again, you make assertions based on being god's chosen people who were told they could have land owned by others.
That is hubris, if it bothers you, you might want to rethink the concept that any people are inherently better or worse than any others simply due to who their mother was.
Oh yes, you kiss your kids with that mouth?
30 - Dave Nalle
It would appear that Bush Administration supporters are lying in wait for just such fodder to prove their witch-hunt assertions that the LEFT will certainly unleash based on last weeks election results.
Deny Nalle?
Why on earth would I deny something which clearly implied in my article?
Not that I don't think there will be a witchhunt, but I also think it will get played up disproportionately by the right. So many opportunities for propagandizing coming up in the next few months.
Dave
31 - Dave Nalle
A simple example is that the U.S. has already held and tortured prisoners before the MCA was signed into law, based on the legal writings of now Attorney General Gonzalez.
And the hearsay as well as waterboarding testimony is scheduled to be used against Khalid Sheik Mohammed and others, according to White House and Pentagon statements.
Yes, the MCA allows prior evidence to be grandfathered in no matter how it was obtained, but it does prohibit future torture.
I can easily agree that both the German law, and the American one are bad. I merely pointed out that in no way can the U.S. claim innocence or hubris in the light of what this administration has done for the last few years.
What can or cannot be said about the US has no bearing on whether or not the German law is excessive.
Dave
32 - stan
didnt they withdraw from the human rights council (if thats the correct name)? why would an administration that stands for "freedom and democracy" withdraw from a council that falls right under that?? makes no sense.
33 - Mick M
Why is Bush being charged? Is the blame shifting to everyone else, which was probably Bush's plan in the first place?!
34 - Mick M
Why isn't Bush being blamed?
35 - S.T.M
Does anyone fair-dinkum believe this is really going to happen? Makes for good copy, but here's my bet: Rumsfeld won't answer for any of this and nor will his cronies.
And while we're at it, if we're talking war crimes, and I know the war in Iraq and the war on terror are in reality two different things, when are the bastards who ordered jets into the WTC and who let off bombs wherever they get the urge going to be dragged up before a war crimes court?
Let's get fair-dinkum here and our perspectives in order. One can hardly blame the US for being a bit on the belligerent side in the wake of 9/11.
Not saying all of it's right, but at least they bring a sense of justice and some compassion to the table.
36 - Dave Nalle
didnt they withdraw from the human rights council (if thats the correct name)? why would an administration that stands for "freedom and democracy" withdraw from a council that falls right under that?? makes no sense.
Are you talking about the human rights council of the UN or some other group? If the former, as a security council member we're automatically on it, although it did recently change composition as terms expired. If it's the latter, I don't know about it. I do know the US has withdrawn from some international groups because their application of human rights principles was selective and politically motivated.
Why isn't Bush being charged? Is the blame shifting to everyone else, which was probably Bush's plan in the first place?
I'm actually surprised they went so far as to include Rumsfeld, Tenet and Gonzales in the suit. To bring the charge they have to somehow prove direct knowledge of or responsibility for the crime. In other words they have to be able to prove that someone gave the order to do the crime with full and specific knowledge of what the result would be. Bush likely gets off because he was unaware of the specific techniquest involved.
Plus, the whole thing kind of falls apart around the definition of a war crime. Very little that was done comes close to falling into standard criteria for war crimes. They clearly want to expand the definition of a war crime fairly substantially so that the US's actions will fit. Interrogation techniques which are essentially psychological have never been grounds for war crimes trials in the past.
Dave
37 - D'oh
in Nuremburg, people were prosecuted, tried and convicted of water boarding as a war crime.
the prosecutors were Americans, the defendants, Germans
how far some have fallen
38 - Nancy
Pity they don't extend the lawsuit to Dubya & Cheney, too, while they're at it. After all, isn't the "Decider in Chief" also the commander of the US Armed Forces? I doubt anyone could made a credible argument that he & Smilin' Dick were not aware of the situation. Even if it's only an empty gesture, it would be a nice one. A conviction in world court on moral & ethical issues: a nice memento for Junior to take with him as a legacy of his failed, disastrous, mismanaged, inept presidency.
39 - Clavos
Nancy,
A conviction in world court on moral & ethical issues: a nice memento for Junior to take with him as a legacy of his failed, disastrous, mismanaged, inept presidency.
We're not talking about a "world court" here, Nancy. We're talking about a law the Germans have passed with which they have arrogantly bestowed upon themselves jurisdiction over the whole world.
40 - Martin Lav
"Why on earth would I deny something which clearly implied in my article?" -- Nalle
I must have missed that point, Dave, can you copy and paste for me please? I mean I know that you believe the left will be on a witch hunt for sure, but where in the article did you state the right's paranoia (other than your illustrative example of the fact that you wrote this article) and their traversing through streams to mask their scent?
41 - Lumpy
Nice subtle godwinism there, D'Oh.
BTW, who was convicted of a war crime for waterboarding at Nuremberg. Never heard that before.
42 - zingzing
Malachi Ritscher... look him up.
i only post this here because this is the post closest to the war...
it's a sad world.
43 - Dave Nalle
I'm not going to comment on Malachi Ritscher beyond saying that having read some of his writing - including his obituary for himself - anything I could say would earn me so much abuse that I'm just shutting up.
Dave
44 - Dave Nalle
I don't believe anyone at Nuremberg was prosecuted for waterboarding. They had bigger fish to fry. The US did prosecute a Japanese officer for doing it to POWs during WW2 and he got 15 years in prison, but to be fair he was convicted for war crimes based on a long list of torture techniques, most of them far worse than waterboarding.
Dave
45 - Nancy
Clavos #39: Gee, just like BushCo, bestowing powers on themselves! Well, they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....
46 - monte letourneau
"Let's get fair-dinkum here and our perspectives in order. One can hardly blame the US for being a bit on the belligerent side in the wake of 9/11."
The way i understood fair-dinkum it would include what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
One might say that after the extremely racist treatment of many semetic peoples by our US culture, corporations, and military (not to mention the ongoing racist pogrom/holocost versus semetic peoples, by europeans, in the name of Semetism - Isreal), that one could hardly blame the terrorists for being a bit on the belligerant side the day of 9-11 2001.
600,000 Iraqis are dead, this makes 9-11 seem a bit like just a little bit.
What is the ratio at which european descended (
presumed, but not neccessarilly) persons killing semetic peoples in revenge reaches fairness in your eyes? currently we're way past 100/1.
In my opinion that is the definition of Racism, each of us are worth 100+ of you.
Just saying that there is a legitimacy to my response with violence to your response with violence to my response with violence... et cetera, does not make it so.
The fact that one can call Germany's law hubris, and that one cannot see the irony of a US group needing to file a claim against US war crimes in Germany is to me the greatest of hubris.
In defense of a nation that breaks treaties on a whim? invades any country were it claims some of it's tourists are in danger? prosecuted into action laws at Neuremburg that it never did, nor ever intend to, follow themselves?
Some of you seem to have an excuse for not knowing US and Israeli history, but those of us who are citizens, and who's taxes have been paying for terrorism in our name for more than a century, have no such excuse.
I have faint hope that such a toothless trial will proceed, but I dearly hope so nonetheless.
Having been in the armed services of these United States, I am well aware of the sense of immunity to international law that pervades there, and feel it imperative to human survival to win such a minor political victory over the growth of Illegal Empire.
47 - zingzing
Malachi Ritscher did say some things that were a bit... looney. to use the right's favorite word.
but, he did what he did, and he didn't do what he didn't do... so...
it's a toss up... who knows the real reasons behind what he did. it certainly made a statement.
48 - Martin Lav
I hate the French.
49 - SHARK
John Q. Public: "...referring to the German laws as hubris while having black ops prisons, extrodinary renditions to places like Syria, and a Vice President who believes that waterboarding is a "no brainer" creates a fine example of pot and kettle."
---THE COMMENTS SECTION IS NOW CLOSED
DUE TO BRILLIANT, CONCISE SUMMARIZATION/REFUTATION ---
Move along.
"I was just doin' my job." --- SHARK
50 - Dave Nalle
One might say that after the extremely racist treatment of many semetic peoples by our US culture, corporations, and military (not to mention the ongoing racist pogrom/holocost versus semetic peoples, by europeans, in the name of Semetism - Isreal), that one could hardly blame the terrorists for being a bit on the belligerant side the day of 9-11 2001.
One might hope that when going on a racist tirade you might AT LEAST learn how to spell 'semite'.
600,000 Iraqis are dead, this makes 9-11 seem a bit like just a little bit.
Actually, historically there are probably in the neighborhood of 100 million dead Iraqis/Mesopotamians since 5000 bc - would you like to blame all of those on the US too?
What is the ratio at which european descended (
presumed, but not neccessarilly) persons killing semetic peoples in revenge reaches fairness in your eyes? currently we're way past 100/1.
Israelis are Semites, Arabs are Semites. The European-related people who are killing the most would be the Iranians.
The fact that one can call Germany's law hubris, and that one cannot see the irony of a US group needing to file a claim against US war crimes in Germany is to me the greatest of hubris.
They can and have filed civil suits here in the US and got about as far with them as they will with this suit in germany.
Dave
51 - zingzing
dave, yer losing it. neither one of you (you or monte) make any sense...