Despite all our hopes, it turns out that Ron Paul is just as crazy as the worst of his followers.
In recent weeks the thundering Ron Paul freight train has kind of derailed. Even though Paul announced that he was ending his campaign on March 8, his supporters are apparently convinced that he's still a viable candidate, despite his repeated public statements that they should move on and try to do some good working within the GOP. Nonetheless, many of them are pushing for a final surge and a surprise (and entirely delusional) victory at the GOP convention this summer. Admittedly, Paul is still making a lot of speeches and pushing his agenda, so maybe that's contributing to their confusion, but he's made it pretty clear he's campaigning for his ideas not an office.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - aksmith
Dave - I think you're drawing much too much from Ron speaking to the JBS. I find the JBS to be an organization I would never want to be allied with. But that's me. That being said, when nobody would listen to Ron or take him seriously, the JBS did. Alex Jones did. When the mainstream media ignored him, marginalized him, made sure ratings winning interviews turned into "web exclusives," the Alex Jones' and JBS's of th world still kept paying attention and reporting on Dr. Paul.
Much like Murray Rothbard hung around with some very non-libertarian friends at the end of his life, Ron has been driven to the fringe in a way by the lack of mainstream coverage.
And here is another thing to think about. Either Ron will go and tell them what he truly believes without embracing any of their fringier agenda (which I think likely) or he may address them and castigate them for their odder beliefs (highly unlikely.) But giving Ron the benefit of the doubt that he is repaying those who didn't treat him like a loon, why would you publish this before he has even had the chance to make the speech?
77 - Lumpy
People posting here re either JBS shills or grimly ignorant of the JBS and its methods. The are everywhere behind hundreds of front groups all of which push the same reactionary agenda. they are so deeply involved iin the Paul campaign that he has effectively become their puppet. His speech is just payback to his masters. He's as much their whore as bush is for big oil.
78 - Jive Dadson
For decades I've been reading about what a bunch of wackos the John Birch Society is. I assumed it was true. When I read their web page, I find that if they are wackos, they sure have learned to hide it by appearing to be intelligent, reasonable, and well-informed. Maybe they are wackos. If so, Ron Paul will try to set them straight.
You see, Dr. Paul will talk to whoever wants to listen and can draw a crowd. What is to be gained by talking only to people who agree with you on every subject? There is absolutely nothing wrong with addressing the John Birch Society, the National Socialist Party (if there is such a thing), or anybody else. Ron Paul's message is the message of Freedom, Prosperity, and Peace. Everyone needs to hear it. Particularly the wackos.
79 - You have my IP, find out
The writer of this article, I hate you. I don't hate many things except TV remotes that seem to hide themselves in akward places, but I truly, hate you.
Supposedly you think that freedom is crazy, maybe so.
Video
80 - EBaker
Add this piece to the ever growing uninformed, factless dung-heap of anti-Ron Paul/ anti-JBS opinion. this author, like the rest of worthless freedom haters, would rather take pot-shots at people and organizations that care about the future of America than to do the work of verifying the accuracy and validity of the content of the messeges. Dave, if this is you attempt at fair and balances reporting, you're a freakin idiot. if this is your audition for FAUX or Clinton News Network, i love your chances.
81 - Al Barger
Comrade Nalle- Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party, like Dwight Eisenhower - as exposed at the time by JBS?
We must not allow the communists and their Manchurian candidate to compromise the purity of our precious bodily fluids.
82 - Dr Dreadful
It's a shame that the reputation of a (by many accounts) thoroughly decent Congressman will likely be forever tarnished by the legions of the flying-mammal-feces insane who've attached themselves to his presidential campaign. Their reality-denying antics have been a huge contributing factor to his candidacy not being taken all that seriously.
I'm betting that after the dust dies down* on the second Wednesday in November and either Clinton, McCain or Obama is confirmed as the USA's 44th President, some Paul supporters will still be insisting that he won and referring to him as 'President Paul'.
[raises umbrella against inevitable thrown poop]
* If the dust dies down. Repeat of 2000, anyone? :-D
83 - Al Barger
Dr Dreadful- It's not his supporters that hurt Paul's reputation, but his own actions. Going to the JBS is HIM, not his followers.
Far worse by my accounting is the years of ugly newsletters he put out under his name. He apparently made a good lot of cash income gladly renting his name for ugly racist nonsense. His claims of ignorance about this in the last few months only add the stigma of LYING to whatever you want to call .
84 - Clavos
Dr Dreadful- It's not his supporters that hurt Paul's reputation, but his own actions. Going to the JBS is HIM, not his followers.
I dunno.
How many of the commenters on just this thread express enthusiastic support of the JBS?
I agree with you that RP carries a lot of unsavory baggage, but his supporters (at least those who have posted on this and other threads here on BC) are a creepy bunch, too.
Birds of a feather, mayhap?
85 - Scott Harmon
Wow, Dave, you lost me again. Some wayward comment that the JBS folks believe in ridiculous crap like the North American Union.
Hate to inform you of this, but designs on a North American Union are far from conspiratorial. I believe the scheming for such an alliance goes back to the colonial days, but the historians can correct me on this. It does go way back, to be sure. And, it goes both ways, for designs by Mexico to "re-take" parts of the USA. There's no conspiracy here. Nothing hard to believe.
Now, I see you have read a website on JBS. I've seen videos, read literature, looked at articles, and so forth. As I said, it is not really my cup of tea, but there are some arguments that are good for the debate. In particular, the ones that discuss "national sovereignty" are the most intriguing. In the face of what we have now, with the U.S.-Anglo alliance essentially trying to rule the world, which version of reality is more insane? The one that believes the world can all be one big happy family, sharing the same goals, or the one that believes in a multi-state world, competing and allying with different nation-states? As far as I can tell, the "Wilsonian" New World Order crowd is about as far afield as one can go. Many in this latter camp do want to amalgamate as many nations as possible into NATO-style alliances and Anglo-centric "unions." JBS and other Constitutionalists are in the former camp; their model of governance is more prevalent throughout the world.
Now, I realize that branding concerned Constitutionalists and pro-nationalists (not militarists) has been the hot topic. But the branders are often self-interested--heavily invested in running multi-national corporations, news outlets, and so forth.
No, I think our lens has to be shifted back onto the New World Order fanatics, for all the illusions that they are creating, the half-baked theories they are tossing around, the damage they are inflicting here and abroad, and the huge amounts of money they are taking from the public to fulfill their ideological, idiotic schemes.
Focus on the real nut-jobs, please.
86 - Thomas
You are flat out wrong.
Facts
Terrible reporting job. Your arguments against JBS are incorrect. It's not even worth my time to spend trying to debunk your argument. All anyone has to do is a little research to see how far you are off the mark.
The John Birch Society is a conservative American political organization. It was founded in Indianapolis, Indiana in 1958 to fight what it saw as growing threats to the Constitution of the United States, especially a suspected Communist infiltration of the United States government, and to support individual rights and private property.
Core values
The John Birch Society is anti-totalitarian, particularly anti-Socialist, anti-Communist, and leans libertarian. It generally seeks to limit the powers of government and strenuously defends what it sees as the original intention of the U.S. Constitution, rooted in Judeo-Christian principles. It idealizes the Founding Fathers as patriotic anti-Communists. The John Birch Society opposes collectivism, including wealth redistribution, economic interventionism, Socialism, Communism, and Fascism.
...Sounds good to me... What's your problem with that?
The John Birch Society opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act in the belief that it was in violation of the 10th Amendment to the United States Constitution and overstepped the rights of individual states to make laws regarding Civil Rights.
OK, so maybe they weren't right about everything... But, at least they acknowledged that laws regarding Civil Rights were needed (as long as it was done by the state...
The John Birch Society is against a unified "one world government", and has an illegal immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It has opposed the United Nations, NAFTA, CAFTA, and the FTAA, and other free-trade agreements with other nations, believing them to be destructive to American principles, the economy, freedom and national sovereignty.
Gee, this sounds a bit like Ron Paul's views, doesn't it?
Anti-Jewish, racist, anti-Mormon, anti-Masonic, and religious groups criticized the group's acceptance of Jews, nonwhites, Masons, the large number of Mormons in the Society (Ezra Taft Benson, a leader in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, encouraged people to join it), and Welch's alleged feminist, ecumenical, and evolutionary ideas.
So, there was acceptance of Jews and nonwhites in the JBS? This obviously shoots bullet holes in your accusations...
I can add more and more... Please get your facts straight before you rant and rave about stuff you obviously know nothing about...
Next time you feel like ranting and raving, why don't you spend time writing about how Obama goes to a racist church for 20 years and calls his own grandmother a "typical" white person.
Wow, Ron Paul is speaking at the JBS. Yawn... such a big deal...
87 - Clavos
It has opposed...NAFTA, CAFTA, and the FTAA, and other free-trade agreements with other nations, believing them to be destructive to American principles, the economy, freedom and national sovereignty.
...Proving they don't know squat about macroeconomics.
88 - Jahfre Fire Eater
Some writers just know a negative Ron Paul story will bring readers to their site in droves. It is a favorite tactic of those with click-driven egos.
You can see more about this in my recent article at nolan chart dot com.
Jahfre Fire Eater
89 - steve
hello dave i had one of the 1st comments submitted above as im #11 as im sure you read what i said and have to this point ignored my response i mean i just want you to take a minute and answer my remarks as in my opinion this is the main thrust of dr. paul i mean take a deep breath and just try and answer my questions as if you do i mean this deep sixxxes a lot of this verbal spewwage going on here to this point what do ya say can ya at least give me a response sir, i mean belly up to the bar dude as i think i gave you some ligit beef to knaw on here, enlighten me sir, regards steve
90 - steve
im sorry dave but im just a poor southern illinois boy and i desire your astute opinion as oh my godddd i think im leaning to your thought process oh my gosh the jbs ohhhhhhhhhh what a chamber of horror as vincent price said in the late 60s thrillers my god i need to reprocess my upper medulla and think that your way is better my gosh i feel the comfort ozzzing all about my body my god ron paul is evil the jbs lover that he is as he wants to be swirllling and twirlling with them folks its his only objective of life as a 30 year congressman im sure this is his wants and needs oh my godddddddddddddd what a god forsaken man, your right dave heh heh ive been converted to your thought process dr. paul is evil and needs a good scolding what a naughty boy he has been dave im so glad you have rescued me from the evil dr. paul, once again im #11 on your chart one of your 1st bonding buddys as im here to hang with ya dave as i love your wisdom and look forward to more of your verbal spewwage,regards steve
91 - Dave Nalle
Steve, if all you got from this is that I think Paul is 'evil' that may explain why I didn't bother to respond to you - that and your complete unfamiliarity with punctuation and paragraphs.
Jahfire, positive articles about Paul will draw readers and commenters too. So will articles about guns and abortion. Hell, most anything posted to BC will draw comments if it's at all interesting.
Dave
92 - steve
hey dave im a classic 50 year old delight i mean im glad you answered me hey im no computer expert on puncuation i mean dont even try and pull that lame game my main deal with you babe is im not trying to create a beef with ya just answer me a couple simple questions that ive asked ya on ron paul taking on general petreaus and his massive popularity kicking now with many young folks i mean dave you have not hit on my main objectives which is how you cats try to get off the beaten path, once again read what i have written ya please respond hey i know why you cant respond because you cant in your right mind being ethical cant answer heh heh once again please answer my 1st question to ya #11 response its not about evil as is that the only thing you can spin with very lame dave please get to the meat of the matter
93 - STM at the arse-hole end of the world
PETI: "Lets go back to the 1700s".
Pre- or post-revolution??
Because, you know, if it's pre, then it's obvious you and your ilk are just agents of the CFR, which runs the world with its British equivalent, Chatham House.
We are talking one-world government here. Nothing to do with a North American Alliance.
The anglosphere is coming (or has it already arrived?), and Paul's supporters are right to fear it. It spells the end for the constitution.
Worse ... imagine bein' under the yoke of that dang Queen agin!
94 - steve
hey dave i think your underwear might be a tad tight and maybe ya need to be laid brother as i got a little talking heads from the 80s a little popsicle and she was from the twin album talking heads sand in the vaseline maybe ya need need to listen to this 200 wpc of vintage juice of a pioneer sx-1250 from 1977 it could serve ya well and give ya a better outlook on life sir and the only better scene is a little voodoo child by jimi hendrix as im sure the redneck punk you are would enjoy that one as jimi can roast the strings as im sure that would make you sleep better. some times a good reaming of jams from hendrixxxx can serve ya well baby,regards steve
95 - Pablo
Steve,
Your great, I like your writing, more please.
96 - STM at the arse-hole end of the world
"hey dave i think your underwear might be a tad tight".
Dave, seriously, how many times have I told you that a bloke your age should make the shift from thongs and Y-fronts to boxer shorts.
Now people are starting to notice. There's no value in sitting around in front of a computer giving yourself a continuous wedgie.
Also, Scott's suggestion about Jim Hendrix ain't a bad one. I also recommend Led Zeppelin IV, and the Immigrant Song from the third album just prior to writing a story for BC.
I amp up on that stuff just before I go for a surf, but it works for anything :)
97 - STM at the arse-hole end of the world
All avilable on iTunes, BTW
98 - George
Guys, we're slinging a lot of mud here and getting unnecessarily nasty. There's no reason we have to lower ourselves in such a way.
Ron Paul is about fiscal responsibility and solvency, both for our government and for this great country's citizens. He's about accountability, adhering to the Constitution, and making tough decisions, tough change, not just telling us what we want to hear in order to encourage us to vote for him. In fact, the most courageous men and women usually tells us what we DON'T want to hear.
But the overall story is much better than I think it is being interpreted. Basically, if you're for less taxes, less wasteful government spending, less national debt, a healthier economy, and retaining your Liberty, then that's all that really matters. Ron Paul and all of his "wacko supporters" open you with welcome arms.
99 - George
I meant "welcome you with open arms:. Need...coffee...now...
100 - Mike
It's ridiculous how foolish commentaries like this insult the JBS, and then go on to promote corrupt incompetent status-quo politicians like Obama, McCain and Hillary that have created:
*a $9 trillion debt,
*$60 trillion in entitlements that the government will never be able to fulfill
*a falling dollar
*a manufacturing base that is moving to China,
*20 million illegal immigrants that ignore the country's immigration laws,
*real median income that is LOWER today than it was back in 1971 for the 25-34 demographic (can you believe that wages have actually gone DOWN for young people since 1971!? It's outrageous!)
*an economy that the comptroller general of the United States -America's top accountant-, David Walker, says is facing total financial collapse:
The status quo politicians that this blog promotes have brought America to the brink of collapse and continue to perpetuate the bankruptcy, and it dares insult the JBS.
Watch this video about the Comptroller General of the United States, David Walker, warning of total financial collapse due to irresponsible policies enacted by government for the last 4 decades.
101 - Mik
The John Birch Society must be crazy for not wanting to bankrupt the next generation.
102 - Dave Nalle
Steve, I'm all of one year younger than you are and I'm pretty sure they didn't invent paragraphs and punctuation in 1977, causing you to miss out in high school. I can't read more than about two lines of your posts without getting a headache. Rewrite your questions one to a line and I'll try to answer them.
STM, I just got a new direct drive turntable for my vinyl. There are some things I've got which just aren't available in any digital format, so I'm going to transfer them from vinyl to the computer myself.
And Mike. Good job hitting the high points of the JBS agenda of protectionism, nativism and isolationism. It's a trifecta.
And BTW, your figures on income are pure cherrypicking. That one age group has remained relatively even, while younger and older workers have seen dramatic increases of income. You also fail to mention that the slight income decline applies only to men and not women. Even adjusting for inflation and the decline in the value of the dollar in recent years real income overall has increased almost 50% since 1971.
So don't believe everything the JBS feeds you, shill.
Dave
103 - George
Dave, do you have a link with product info on that direct drive turntable for your pc?
104 - lulz
hey Dave wasn't that a personal attack just now?
105 - Dave Nalle
George, it's a Stanton T.90 USB. It's got very good reviews. Haven't had a chance to hook it up yet, though. You can get stats and info and reviews on CNET.
Dave
106 - Dr Dreadful
lulz @ #104:
Borderline. I'll allow it... Calling someone a shill if that's what Dave reasonably perceives them to be is not a personal attack.
But I'm watching.
[Assistant Comments Editor]
107 - Robert
Dave:
"They're [JBS/Ron Paul] still racists and anti-Semites and nativists and isolationists and conspiracy obsessed"
How is the above quote from your "Opinion" responsible journalism?
Have you meet each and every member of the JBS or Ron Paul to confirm this "fact?"
Did you spend any time on the JBS website? Try this page.
How can you explain a Jewish member of the JBS national council? How do you explain the many minorities on the national staff and support of minority scholarship since 1958?
As for a Constitutional foreign policy advocated by the JBS and Ron Paul, what specifically do you find objectionable about:
"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."
Do you know the identity of the principal author of the UN Charter (who also was the first secretary general of the UN)? Convicted Soviet agent Alger Hiss.
The JBS knew the UN was bad for America from the start. Funny how yesterdays "kook" is today's genius.
Lastly, stop cherry picking on the "angry" responses to your hit piece. If you are going to respond, try answering some tough questions for a change.
-Robert
108 - Danni
You are incorrect in all your assertions regarding the John Birch Society. It is a multi-racial, multi-religion organization that is committed to freedom for all. Before you make attacks with typical leftist propaganda, you should research your topic. Communism and socialism are not dead, far from it, they are alive in well in Washington. One need only read recent legislation to realize that government bureacrats wants to control every aspect of our lives. Take hate-crime legislation, proposed forced government education of our children, forced innoculations, gun laws etc.
For a journalist, you are quite dishonest or blind!
109 - Pablo
Robert,
Dave cannot answer your question with any verifiable degree regarding raciscm in the JBS, for the simple reason that racism is not one of their platforms.
Honoring the US Constitution, resisting global government, exposing the CFR, and the NAU are.
So instead of debating the issues, Dave, as he usually does, makes a denigrating statement and cannot for the life of him back it up.
I do believe he is a shill. He acts like a libertarian only to the extent that he can obsfucate others, by fooling them, and always siding with the globalists and the CFR.
I was fooled by him for awhile, and could not reconcile his so called libertarianism, with his obvious love for not only the CFR, the CIA, but also the neo-cons and invading a sorvereign nation without cause. Now surprise surpsise he is becoming one of John McCains biggest supporters!
Don't let him fool you, he is imho nothing more than a shill.
110 - Danni
article is propaganda. Go to the JBS website and read the truth. This author is blind to reality.
111 - getalife
You have to remember Paul is sly, things are not always what they seem, and with any luck he'll be able to steer these rebels into having a real cause. btw, using ad hominem adjectives to fill up your article to almost 2 pages only backfires to discredit one person, the author. Remember unintended consequences.
112 - Pablo
"using ad hominem adjectives to fill up your article to almost 2 pages only backfires to discredit one person"
Davey? Nahhh he would never do that. Cmon
113 - Dave Nalle
Listen, there ARE many things in the surface agenda of the JBS which I find perfectly reasonable. It's the underlying paranoia and obsession with conspiracies which I find troubling.
And the fact is that they ARE nativists and isolationists and a lot of that is based on a xenophobia which is at its heart racist. They may not be racist against blacks (today anyway), but they are certainly hostile to Mexicans and other immigrant groups.
As for my 'ad hominem adjectives' whatever the hell that means, go look up the meaning of the term and get back to me.
Dave
114 - Domino
All you're trying to do is yell "racism" over and over and associate Paul's and JBS's name with that. I've read this article twice now and it's really apparent that you're someone with a serious chip on his shoulder. I kind of feel sorry for you, since you're likely a middle aged man with somewhat of a toddler's brain.
115 - Robert
Dave:
Thank you for changing your position. A small step, but a start.
"It's the underlying paranoia and obsession with conspiracies which I find troubling."
Such statement is far different from the original memes you directed at Ron Paul and ALL John Birch Society Members. Remember your own words: "They're [JBS/Ron Paul] still racists and anti-Semites and nativists and isolationists and conspiracy obsessed"
So can we take your post #113 as a retraction of your initial libel? That would be appropriate. I am a JBS member and, although you called me (a person you have never met) a racist, I forgive you.
Now lets see if we can take another step.
Your new position is that ALL (again, an irresponsible blanket statement) JBS members "ARE nativists and isolationists and a lot of that is based on a xenophobia" and that "they are certainly hostile to Mexicans and other immigrant groups."
Are you aware that a senior member of the JBS National field staff, the guy in charge of the entire southwest area of the country, is a second generation member of a immigrant family from Mexico?
I have circulated JBS petitions askng Congress to secure the border (a major national security issue) and refuse to grant Amnesty. Over 90% of the passers by would sign the petition. By FAR, the most ardent supporters were LEGAL immigrants, especially those from Mexico. They are offended by the fact that they waited in line, did all the things that were asked of them - in exchane for one of the most precious disdinctions in the world, US citizenship - and now see the government esentially tell them their sacrifice was for nothing.
Our local JBS chapter in Central Ohio has a member from Thailand. Perhaps you can convince Mr. Sariwatta that he is xenophobic right after you explain to Mr. Eisenburg that he is an anti-Semite.
Please, stop calling people names.
Now lets consider the amnesty issue. First the moral considerations. The Mexican government is overtly fascist in the neo-Mussolini style. The whole system is horrifically corrupt - ask just about any immigrant from Mexico, legal or illegal. The open border props up the current regime and acts as an escape valve for the pressure, much in the same way a teapot uses a spout. It also acts as a financial support. What is the number one import into Mexico from the US? Currency.
Now consider the historical aspect of the immigration issue. I would agree with Patrick Henry on the following statement: "I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Just before the fall of the Roman civilization the Emperor Valens decided that he needed cheap labor to do jobs that Romans did not want to do. He also needed lots of soldiers to fill out his overburdened military. They were at war with terrorists on horseback from the far reaches of the empire. Does any of this sound familiar? Within 10 years of the amnesty deal the "cheap labor" revolted, wiped out the Roman army at Adrianople and sacked Rome.
We did not even get to the national security issues or the fact that every country in the world, including Mexico, has immigration laws to prevent their social services (hospitals, schools, police, fire, etc.) from being swamped.
You may disagree with my positions as stated above but I must ask if it is fair to call me racist towards Mexicans because of them?
I continue to object to your refusal to deal with the tough questions. You limit your responses to making fun of people that are emotionally upset by your hit piece.
Please answer these questions:
1. What part of "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none" do you find objectionable, nativist or isolationist?
2. Do you agree that it is unprofessional and wrong to label Ron Paul and ALL Birch Socity members as racist?
Answer these questions and then I will respond to your cofusion over "conspiracy."
- Robert
116 - Dave Nalle
Thank you for changing your position. A small step, but a start.
I don't believe I actually changed my position, but nice try.
"It's the underlying paranoia and obsession with conspiracies which I find troubling."
Such statement is far different from the original memes you directed at Ron Paul and ALL John Birch Society Members. Remember your own words: "They're [JBS/Ron Paul] still racists and anti-Semites and nativists and isolationists and conspiracy obsessed"
So can we take your post #113 as a retraction of your initial libel?
No, you can't.
That would be appropriate.
No, it wouldn't.
I am a JBS member and, although you called me (a person you have never met) a racist, I forgive you.
Did I mention your name? The JBS has lots of members, the fact that so many of them hold a great many insane and dangerous views does not mean that you automatically share those beliefs.
Now lets see if we can take another step.
Your new position is that ALL (again, an irresponsible blanket statement) JBS members "ARE nativists and isolationists and a lot of that is based on a xenophobia" and that "they are certainly hostile to Mexicans and other immigrant groups."
Please point out where in this article I used the world 'all' to apply my characterizations to every single Bircher? The fact is that I didn't. You're rewriting the article in order to make your attempt at an argument sound legitimate when it is not.
Are you aware that a senior member of the JBS National field staff, the guy in charge of the entire southwest area of the country, is a second generation member of a immigrant family from Mexico?
No, and I don't particularly care. I know plenty of racist Mexicans. In fact my experience has been that 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants are the most hostile to newcomers of their own race.
I have circulated JBS petitions askng Congress to secure the border (a major national security issue)
An impossible pipe dream when the real national security issue is controlling the ports of entry. Thankfully we have the SPP to help us do that.
and refuse to grant Amnesty.
Something no one has ever proposed since the Reagan era.
Over 90% of the passers by would sign the petition. By FAR, the most ardent supporters were LEGAL immigrants, especially those from Mexico. They are offended by the fact that they waited in line, did all the things that were asked of them - in exchane for one of the most precious disdinctions in the world, US citizenship - and now see the government esentially tell them their sacrifice was for nothing.
If you make things up (like amnesty) and use other scare tactics and misrepresentations you can get people to sign almost anything.
Our local JBS chapter (Central Ohio: http://jbs.meetup.com/21/) has a member from Thiland. Perhaps you can convince Mr. Sariwatta that he is xenophobic right after you explain to Mr. Eisenburg that he is an anti-Semite.
I don't know these people personally, so I have no basis for assessing their attitudes. I do know that some Thais and some Jews are extremely racist and xenophobic like you wouldn't believe.
Please, stop calling people names.
Please stop being a member of a reactionary nut group.
(Bizarre nativist excuse making deleted)
You may disagree with my positions as stated above but I must ask if it is fair to call me racist towards Mexicans because of them?
Sure. If they were Swedes you wouldn't object to letting them into the country.
I continue to object to your refusal to deal with the tough questions. You limit your responses to making fun of people that are emotionally upset by your hit piece.
This is hardly a hit piece. I could have gone into a lot more detail and really discussed the JBS rather than just leaving it to a pretty neutral background link.
Please answer these questions:
1. What part of "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none" do you find objectionable, nativist or isolationist?
Like I said earlier, I've got no problem with some of the things the JBS says. Charles Manson could like bunny rabbits and he'd still be a mass murderer. The JBS has a well established history of putting forth a relatively harmless seeming front and leaving the dirty work to their surrogates and associates.
2. Do you agree that it is unprofessional and wrong to label Ron Paul and ALL Birch Socity members as racist?
Do you agree that it's either a sign of extreme stupidity or an insult to my intelligence to think that I'd accept your complete distortion of my article as if it were accurate? I never said Paul was a racist. I have no reason to think he is. I also never said that all Birchers were racists.
Here's a question for you. Can you explain why if you read the bio of virtually every prominent racist, hatemonger or mad bomber, the first thing on their resume is membership in the JBS? Why is it that the first step towards holing up in a clock tower with your guns is joining the JBS?
Or perhaps you could explain why the JBS put neo-nazi terrorist Carol Howe on the cover of their magazine in 1997. Or maybe you could talk about Tom Metzger (of WAR) and his time as a JBS regional organizer. Or perhaps explicate how his membership in the JBS inspired William Pearce to write the Turner Diaries. Hell, you could just explain the JBS's long-term support for the racist militia movement.
Answer these questions and then I will respond to your cofusion over "conspiracy."
On second thought, don't bother.
Dave
117 - pleasexcusetheinerruption
Lol go Dave! Nice to see your debate skills being put to use against someone besides me for a change.
Robert? You just got pwnd.
118 - Robert
Dave:
Your words were:
"They're [JBS/Ron Paul] still racists and anti-Semites and nativists and isolationists and conspiracy obsessed"
And now you say that you were not leveling that charge at Ron Paul and every member of the JBS? That is not honest. There is no distortion in my objection to your blanket name-calling.
So as I understand your position now, Mexicans, Jews and Thais are racist too? You are starting to sound xenophobic!
"Can you explain why if you read the bio of virtually every prominent racist, hatemonger or mad bomber, the first thing on their resume is membership in the JBS? Why is it that the first step towards holing up in a clock tower with your guns is joining the JBS?"
These are silly indefensible statements that lack truth.
The questions still remain...
1. What part of "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none" do you find objectionable, nativist or isolationist?
Do you agree with this concept of foreign policy?
2. Do you agree that it is unprofessional and wrong to label Ron Paul and ALL Birch Society members as racist?
You made blanket statements without cause. You now claim, in contrast to the plain language of your comments, that "I also never said that all Birchers were racists."
But again, your statement was:
"They're [JBS/Ron Paul] still racists and anti-Semites and nativists and isolationists and conspiracy obsessed"
Are you now saying "They're" refers to some lesser amount of JBS members and not Ron Paul at all?
-Robert
119 - Dave Nalle
Repeating your questions and ignoring my original answers and pretending I didn't raise a bunch of questions of you may seem like a clever rhetorical technique, but it isn't. Straw man arguments are also pathetically transparent.
Any organization as large as the JBS is going to have some diversity in its membership. Just because every prominent member is some sort of lunatic or racist that doesn't mean that there aren't a few people there who are just confused or misguided or afflicted by a pathetic desire to belong to something.
As for Ron Paul, as far as I know despite addressing the JBS he is not an official member of the organization. And if he is he sure is keeping it a secret - wonder why.
Dave
120 - TFS
I work with Ron Paul and he wants to be clear that he did not drop out.
121 - Dave Nalle
Well good, TFS, because no one, not even the WaPo ever said he dropped out. He just stopped actively campaigning and acknowledged he wasn't going to win the presidency. He has every right to keep his delegates until the convention plus any he gains in the next couple of months.
Glad that's all cleared up for the 20th time.
Dave
122 - Robert
Dave:
"ignoring my original answers"
What answers? I repeat the questions because you will not answer them directly. For example, where have you directly answered the question as to the professionalism of issuing blanket statements that everyone in a group is a certain way, be it racist, isolationist etc? Do you agree that is wrong?
I am still at a loss as to your inference that "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none" is objectionable, nativist or isolationist.
As far as I can tell, you agree that this concept is actually good for America yet you will not admit as such directly. As you say, "wonder why"
Are you now officially changing your blanket statements that ALL JBS members are racist and anti-Semites to just the JBS leadership as racist etc.?
To quote from your new post:
"every prominent member is some sort of lunatic or racist"
Again this begs the question if someone like Rev. Stephen Craft, a Harvard educated African-American and leader in the JBS is racist? Seems silly, no? When did you meet Rev. Craft?
How about David Eisenburg? He is on the national council. That is a significant leadership position. Have you met him? How can you say he hates all Jews? (for example, do you presume that he hates his wife because she is Jewish?)
Although we have never met, are you accusing me of being racist?
Please answer the original questions directly.
- Robert
123 - Dave Nalle
What answers? I repeat the questions because you will not answer them directly. For example, where have you directly answered the question as to the professionalism of issuing blanket statements that everyone in a group is a certain way, be it racist, isolationist etc? Do you agree that is wrong?
No. If you join a group which is full of racists and bigots and nuts and remain in that group knowing this to be the case, then you are at the very least condoning their beliefs and behavior and therefore are tainted by it.
I am still at a loss as to your inference that "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none" is objectionable, nativist or isolationist.
Oh yay. More strawmanery. Feel free to make up anything and claim I said it and then respond to it.
Are you now officially changing your blanket statements that ALL JBS members are racist and anti-Semites to just the JBS leadership as racist etc.?
I've already answered this one TWICE. That seems more than sufficient.
Again this begs the question if someone like Rev. Stephen Craft, a Harvard educated African-American and leader in the JBS is racist? Seems silly, no? When did you meet Rev. Craft?
I don't need to meet him. I don't need to know anything about him except that he belongs to the JBS and therefore tacitly condones their actions and the actions of other members. The fact that he's a religious fascist and a virulent homophobe doesn't help either, of course. And BTW you spelled his first name wrong.
How about David Eisenburg? He is on the national council. That is a significant leadership position. Have you met him? How can you say he hates all Jews? (for example, do you presume that he hates his wife because she is Jewish?)
Again, all I need to know is that he's in the JBS to know there's something fundamentally wrong with his judgement. A little investigation shows that he's a conspiracy nut who believes that there's a conspiracy of communist jews operating through the ADL. I figured this out through a brief persusal of his writings. They're easy to find since they are regularly reprinted on websites run by various chapters of the KKK. Does that not give you a clue? Oh, and you spelled his last name wrong.
Although we have never met, are you accusing me of being racist?
I never accused you personally of anything, but you do admit to being a member of an organization filled with racists and all forms of hatemongering and by the choice of being a member, condoning that behavior.
Hate in various forms is the unifying principle of the JBS. If you don't share that hate maybe you shouldn't be a member.
Dave
124 - Robert
Dave:
Thank you for the moment of honesty.
These are some pearls of journalistic wisdom:
"They're [JBS/Ron Paul] still racists and anti-Semites and nativists and isolationists and conspiracy obsessed"
and
"I don't need to meet him. I don't need to know anything about him except that he belongs to the JBS"
and
"Again, all I need to know is that he's in the JBS to know there's something fundamentally wrong with his judgement"
and
"they ARE nativists and isolationists and a lot of that is based on a xenophobia which is at its heart racist. They may not be racist against blacks (today anyway), but they are certainly hostile to Mexicans and other immigrant groups."
I would caution against using any of these in your portflio. Eventhe NY Times would not go for that.
Now that the truth of you position is abundently clear, I proceed as we are insructed in Matthew 10:14.
For everyone else but Dave:
To find out what the country should be, check out this 30 minute video entitled Overiew of America.
The Mission of the JBS since 1958 is: To bring about less government, more responsibility, and -- with God's help -- a better world by providing leadership, education, and organized volunteer action in accordance with moral and Constitutional principles.
The JBS is home to the world's largest all private library. The JBS has the resources to examine for accuracy such items as David Rockefeller's statement in his 2002 autobiography: "For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
The JBS also opposes the enterance of the USA into a system of regionalized government similar to the European Union.
Watch this short British Documentary about the EU.
The JBS is smeared by the likes of Dave because it is the MOST effective guardian of liberty in the Nation. If we were all kooks, racist, etc., Dave would not need to bother.
Check out their website and decide for yourself.
-Robert
125 - Cannonshop
Dave Nalle said:
"No. If you join a group which is full of racists and bigots and nuts and remain in that group knowing this to be the case, then you are at the very least condoning their beliefs and behavior and therefore are tainted by it."
Yes, Dave, but people still join the Democratic Party anyway. (Please, I'm being tongue-in-cheek here...)
The Birchers you're most familiar with, I think, are the ones from the sixties, who were, for the most part, inarticulate at best, and frequently had racist scumbags showing up claiming to support THEM. a bit like how the KKK tried to make headlines supporting Ronnie Reagan. The difference being that the Birchers were saying things people didn't want to hear and they WERE a little bit hyper-fixated on the Communist threat
Ron Paul used to be a Libertarian, this makes him rather more familiar, I think, with aspects of the American Fringe that you probably are not, including the phenomena that made him a Republican-eventually, with time and experience (the Commie invasion the Birchers were worried about in 1968 never materialized) nearly everyone mellows and becomes more reflective.
The Birchers as a community, unlike racially-oriented groups, are not much different. I can find four or five Republicans who are more paranoid than your average Bircher, and you can't swing a dead cat in a Democrat gathering without hitting someone who spouts off about the "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" and insists race-relations are still stuck in 1967, and it's a hard go to find a gathering of young democrats who don't have at least one member wearing a Che Guevarra tee-shirt, even if it's under his oxford or his hair's gray (or balding).
Flat out, there's enough crazy all around in the "Mainstream" groups that the Birchers aren't any more a cobbled bunch of psychotic paranoids than anyone else.