One reason Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich are presidential vanity candidates and long shots to win their parties presidential nomination.
"The Patriotic Sheep" are often the most difficult to work with because they won't take a minute to consider that which they do not know…these folks are so busy defending the Constitution that they are often the last to consider the damage they are inflicting. — Rick Koerber, The “Brain-Off” Conspiracy…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Republican again
Guh.. Iraq was not a threat, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, yes it was mistranslated, he compared Israels destruction to that of the collaps of the soviet union, Im an american, not an Israeli, if Israel wants war with the world, please let them do so without using our lives and tax money, Ron Paul is right, has always been right, get out of the middle east and buy the oil in a competetive free marked, dont fight wars for them.
And "Dave", how old are you?
27 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
re #9, #12, #13:
Incoming from Ruvy in 5... 4... 3... 2...1
Actually, Dave wasn't finishing an article on the greatness of the CFR - he was publishing my article on Waiting for War in the Shards of Shattered Illusions.
There really isn't much to say about this article. It's about a vote of a non-binding resolution. The most that can be said is that both Ron Paul used a motherhood and apple pie resolution to try to make a point...
That's nice.
Dinnertime is over in Israel, by the way... Dinner is usually eaten in the afternoon, with the evening reserved for a light supper. It's a Mediterranean - Middle Eastern thing. Dave could have told you that - but he was too busy working on my article...
28 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I forgot to mention Kucinich in there somewhere - but he's a forgettable guy anyway.
29 - tomdawg
Abel,
You're so confussed I don't know where to start. Let's start with Israel (the Jewish state).
Fact: the Jewish state was founded with terrorism (google Irgun Terrorism)and the forced removal of families from homes they had lived in for hundreds of years....(but its o.k. cause God wanted it?)
Fact: the Jewish state you describe as a shining example of democracy actually still practices APARTHEID, treating Israeli Arabs as second class citizens.
Fact: According to the Apostle Paul, the 'Israel of God' is not the Jewish state, but rather all those who love God's Son the Lord Jesus Christ (see Gal.3 and Romans 8-10)
Fact: most Jewish citizens of Israel are, according to polls, ATHEIST or non-religious. Ouch, I know that hurts, but deal with it.
Conclusion: let the Jewish state fight its' own enemies...they can do it with the hundreds of nukes that they stole from the U.S. and the billions in welfare we give them yearly.
Ron Paul knows more than you.
30 - Fluffy
Perhaps the other reason to vote against the resolution is because it's nonsensical garbage.
The claim is that Ahmadinejad's statement that he wanted Israel wiped off the map is a call to genocide, and thus it is appropriate for the UN to censure Iran. That's absurd. Even if this claim hadn't been widely debunked as a mistranslation, wanting Israel wiped off the map is not the same as wanting genocide.
I wanted the Soviet Union wiped off the map. I got my wish, too. Strangely enough, the Soviet Union was wiped off the map without genocide.
Should Ronald Reagan have been censured as a genocide-inciter, based on his anti-Soviet statements? Obviously not.
The resolution is exactly what Paul said it is. It's part of the process of trying to paper together justification for a first strike against Iran. A first strike that does not serve the national security interests of the United States.
I also have to point out the extraordinary intellectual dishonesty of the part of this article that deals with the justifications used to invade Iraq. News flash: the people who thought Iraq was a threat to our national security were wrong. The people who said that Iraq had no WMD and posed no threat to our national security were right. One of those people was Ron Paul, who said as much in a 2002 interview with Bill Moyers that is widely available on YouTube. Perhaps we might want to consider no longer listening to the people who were absolutely dead wrong on Iraq, and might want to instead give an ear to the people who were absolutely RIGHT about Iraq. If one of the few national politicians who could tell that the case for war against Iraq was being falsely trumped up comes out and says, "A case for war is being trumped up all over again, this time against Iran," maybe it's time to listen.
31 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Tomdawg;
I saw that name and had the feeling that you were barking up the wrong tree and trying hard to piss into a log standing upside down. And I was right both times!!
Instead of arguing with you here, you can read about reality at comment #1 of The Anti-Islamist Manifesto, Waiting for War in the Shards of Shattered Illusions, and the other 75 of my articles at my writer's page at Blogcritics Magazine.
Laters!!
32 - Lumpy
Amazing. You've found a conspiracy that Ron Payl's supporters actually don't believe in. I guess the jews aren't behind it.
33 - Sammy
I wish one you neocons can tell me how
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's statements threatening Israel are more inflamatory than Sen. John McCain singing "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" to the tune of Barbara Ann.
34 - tomdawg
Ruvy:
Nice job of not replying. But I can't much blame you since your obviously out of ammo.
35 - jc
I agree with Dr. Paul , remove ourselves from the UN and allow Israel to defend itself. I'm sure the Israelis are capable of their own defense.
where in the constitution was it written that the U.S. should become the worlds police ?... oh wait it doesn't!
36 - JP
"America went to war in Iraq, first and foremost, because it was in our national security interests to do so. At the time it was widely believed that Saddam Hussein posed an imminent and strategic threat to the United States, our allies, and other US interests."
It was widely believed by who? Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the neo-cronies.
It turns out it was all smoke and mirrors. Oops! 3,600 dead soldiers and quarter million dead civilians and civil war. Double Oops!
Ohhhhh, but this time it's different! We've got the intelligence right this time. Iran is a threat and it's going to be a cakewalk!
Forgive me for being skeptical.
Look buddy, Americans are tired of war and they are luckily seeing through the b.s. lies about how muslims want to convert us to their religion or kill us.
It sounds silly coming from all the chickensh*t Sean Hannity wannabe's like you.
37 - Abhishek
Damn u - u idiot you still think that US went to war in Iraq because it was in our NATIONAL INTEREST .. - how stupid and ignorant can a person be.. - you destroyed a stable country killed millions - 500,000 children for national security ?? on what basis did u come to this conclusion ??? read - imperial hubris by CIA head of bin-Laden group .. to get your ideas straight.
38 - tomdawg
Absolutely nothing in this world could help Ahmadinejad more than a U.S. attack. Right now the people, at least some of them, are protesting in Iran about gasoline prices/shortages. The moment after a U.S. bomb drops no Iranian citizen would dare speak out against Ahmadinejad, lest they seam anti-Persian or anti-Islamic. This logic is elementary in the extreme...even someone as shallow as Sean Hannity tries to use it to accuse the anti-war crowd of Treason.
39 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Nice job of not replying. But I can't much blame you since your obviously out of ammo.
Tomdawg, not only do you bark up the wrong tree, try to piss in a log upside down, but you also haven't got the guts to engage me in a debate, by reading what I have to say. You sure that ain't "yellerdawg"? for your moniker?
40 - Jack D.
So, I guess we should just keep kicking everybody's ass until they figure out that we are the nice guys huh? Your obviously a one world gov't kind of guy, so why bother trying judge Ron paul when your actions equal nothing more than handing the one world cronies the key to our country.
You obviously haven't seen the video on Google, Freedom to Fascism or Fiat Empire? All of you, pull your head out and watch the movies.
41 - Robert Moore
The threat posed by Persia is that she will reunite and only accept Euros and Yen as payment for her oil. There isn't anything we can do to stop that so we better get our financial house in order.
42 - EEKman
*sigh*
I cant WAIT for the day that this treasonous neo-con garbage is purged from our national consciousenss. I hope we can do this before they drag us all down with them.
In short, your entire worldview is a sick, sick illusion. I recommend cleansing yourself with large amounts of illegal drugs. After you've wandered around town homeless for a few months hopefully you'll wake up and get an education.
43 - Luke
Inflation is really at 12%.
Still want to vote for a CFR-backed candidate who supports the the corporate-owned IRS?
How would you feel if I asked you to give me 20% of your income for the rest of your life, for nothing in return?
If that makes sense to you, then by all means -- vote for it! I'd love to see you screw yourself if you're really that stupid! You deserve the best.
44 - tomdawg
Ruvy:
Thanks for another non-reply coupled with an extremely lame attempt at a personal attack on someone you don't know. A great intellect you've got there.
To humor you, I glanced at some of your drivel, and apparently you don't like Olmert...longing for the good ole' days of Begin, Irgun and the other murderous goons of Zionism?
Atheists, Aparthied and a love for U.S. welfare $$$$. Which of these does not describe the Jewish state? Still, who wants to see it wiped off the map? Not me. How in the world would Jimmy Swaggart and John Haggee raise their millions?
45 - A.K. Smith
Well, that article was interesting. I admire Dr. Paul's foreign policy as a Jew and as one who has been to both Israel and Iran. In fact, the inflated rhetoric now emanating from the U.N. and the Congress and the Bush administration is exactly the wrong thing to do when dealing with that part of the world.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. And I am a big supporter of Israel both morally and financially, and additionally, I have donated one of my children to Israel. Nowhere will you find a bigger supporter of Israel and its right to exist. However, I am not willing to allow any American taxpayer to be forced to subsidize Israel, Fatah, Egypt or Jordan, which is what we currently are doing. And I do not wish to see a single American taxpayer forced to assist the monarchy in Saudi Arabia, you know, the place where most of the terrorists on Earth come from.
I don't understand the anger that some express at Ron Paul. Kucinich? Yeah, he's insane and does seem to hate Israel. I'm not a fan of his either. But Ron Paul does not possess either of those attributes. In Dr. Paul's administration, Israel would do much better than it has during the Arabist Clinton administration, the anti-semitic Nixon administration, and the Saudi-indebted Carter administration, just to name three.
46 - tomdawg
Wow. Ruuuuuvy?
Hey, Ruvy. Check out A.K. Smith's comment.
47 - CaptainZen
Poor scared Abel must defend the UN resolution defying nation of Israhell by all means. No country in the world has ignored so many UN resolutions and got away with it. War should be waged against Israel until it complies with all UN resolutions Abel, put that in your Pipe and enjoy the smoke.
48 - tomdawg
Speaking of a smoke...I've got a Cuban waiting at home. Later on, y'all.
49 - Matthew T. Sussman
I NEED FIVE GALLONS OF HOT BUTTERED POPCORN, STAT
This will be fun.
50 - clay
Experts who take a good look at the middle eastern situation agrees with Ron Paul, including those who worked in the CIA bin laden unit. We do more harm than good toward Israel when we do stuff in the middle east. Besides, they have proven many times they have no problem defending themselves, our involvement and our wars only hurts israel.
51 - A.K. Smith
#48 " July 17, 2007 @ 17:42PM " CaptainZen
Poor scared Abel must defend the UN resolution defying nation of Israhell by all means. No country in the world has ignored so many UN resolutions and got away with it. War should be waged against Israel until it complies with all UN resolutions Abel, put that in your Pipe and enjoy the smoke.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And you wonder why people like Abel are suspicious of those who favor non-intervention? You call Israel Israhell, so I'm guessing your particular brand of insanity is that of the conspiratorial true believer. And yet, even though the U.N. is part and parcel of the Great Conspiracy, you want its sanctions enforced against Israel? Or do you see it as democracy in action since about 40 Arab or Muslim countries have more votes than Israel and its tiny handful of allies?
But either way, if you think Israel is supposed to live by U.N. resolutions, then I suppose you won't mind when they vote in the U.N. to take away your weapons, and to train international forces in your backyard.
Maybe you can rant a little about the beaners crossing the border too, just to mix in a little more irrational hate and stupidity.
Um, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
52 - Dave Nalle
Inflation is really at 12%.
You do understand that when a site calls itself 'shadow government' whatever, then it's a bunch of conspiracy nuts and not to be taken seriously, right? I can recalculate alternate versions of those various indeces using additional special criteria and produce almost any result you like. Hell, I can make inflation go negative with a little creativity.
Still want to vote for a CFR-backed candidate who supports the the corporate-owned IRS?
Ooh, the CFR. A moderate think-tank on international policy. Scaaaary. And exactly what corporation 'owns' the IRS?
How would you feel if I asked you to give me 20% of your income for the rest of your life, for nothing in return?
No thanks. I need to spend that money on tinfoil hats to pass out at the next Birch Society meeting. I assume you'll be there wearing your LaRouche t-shirt?
Dave
53 - Richard
As Bourne said, "War is the health of the state." Just to connect the dots for those not Abel to, this means more government and less freedom.
For someone who is affiliated with a website named "freecapitalist", this is a pretty huge oversight.
Killing Iranians will not restore lost liberties in this country (or are you asserting that the US is as free and capitalist as it can get?). It will not reduce the deficit; it will not deregulate any industry; it will not reduce any taxes.
Compare Bush's government growth record with avowed anti-capitalist LBJ and get back to me if you are Abel.
54 - Walker Pfost
When somebody hits you, the first instinct is to hit back. It is a natural reflex--we all do it. When somebody calls you a name, you get upset and call them a name.
I think we can all agree on the above.
We seem to lose our respect for logic, however, when we deal on the international level. When one nation "hits" another nation, the second nation's instinct is to "hit" back. An eye for an eye. It is human nature.
Like Pearl Harbor.
Here is a brief history of our current situation:
The U.S. "hit" Iraq throughout the 90s, and a bunch of aggressive teenagers and young men join the Al-Qaeda, because they wanted a chance to "hit" back. Then came 9/11. Finally, the Al-Qaeda had gotten their chance.
The instinct reversed itself--now, Americans wanted to "hit" back. This should have been expected by the Al-Qaeda. It's only logical. It's the way we are.
**The U.S. had every right to hit back after 9/11.**
We did not, however, have the right to invade Iraq. Iraq was not who "hit" us. The damage to our nation and our people was done by the Al-Qaeda. Not Iraq (as despicable as Saddam was).
America is a nation of laws. Those laws forbid us to punish an individual or group of individuals before they are proven guilty.
Until they are proven guilty.
Iraq was not proven guilty. Al-Qaeda was. But now, we are "hitting" that region again. Does anyone seriously think that Al-Qaeda will not retaliate? It is human nature to retaliate.
Bring the troops home now. Stop giving the Al-Qaeda a reason to hate us.
55 - A.K. Smith
We do know that inflation isn't what it's reported to be because the government has no incentive to be honest about it. In fact, inflation can be calculated at the grocery store by anyone who is paying attention and while it's not currently South American-style hyper-inflation, it is certainly not as low as the media is reporting.
How do I know the government has no incentive to report inflation accurately? Well, besides the fact that inflation allows them to spend beyond their means, and they could turn it off tomorrow by reigning in the fed if they wanted to, I know because I have a memory. Remember Ronald Reagan? Remember what his administration did when they didn't like the inflation numbers? Ronald the Saint Reagan's people merely changed the items in the mythical "economic basket of goods" used to calculate inflation to reflect a lower number.
I tried that with my golf handicap once and made the rest of my foursome very angry. They started a conspiracy website about it, I think. They won't tell me because it's a secret.
56 - Chad Bishop
The author would quote the "Weakly Standard"? The author would quote William Kristol, son of Irving Kristol, father of the Neo Conservative movement? I ask why not just quote Wolfowitz, Strauss or Machiavelli directly?
Pure propaganda.
57 - NH
Israel can go take a flying leap. Why should we give money to ANY country?
58 - Robert Lukens
Elated to see a whole two people in Congress unwilling to censure someone for eaying something they didn't actually say, either out of ignorance or ust to get more AIPAC bucks. Things are looking up. Not long ago, there was only one congressman with a modicum of integrity or acuity. Maybe we'll get more, and the ones they replace will go into msm journalism or sell used cars. What was that quote about a majority of one? Now two. Two down, 433 to go--433, the recriprocal of the average sheeple's IQ.
59 - Rick Fisk
"Even though violations of UN resolutions were some but not all of the reason listed in the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Act that gave President Bush the legal means to go to war, America went to war in Iraq, first and foremost, because it was in our national security interests to do so."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! Sorry, couldn't resist. This is the lamest of the neocon excuses for killing 3/4 million Arabs in Iraq.
There is absolutely no security interest in Iraq for the US.
Any leftover chemicals that might be used in chemical weapons were sold to Iraq by US defense corporations. It didn't bother anyone to allow that but all of a sudden it is a great danger to us.
bah.
60 - Kyle Sanders from Salem, OR
Yeah, it appears Abel Keogh is pretty much a paid cheerleader for the neocons. Everything he writes is watered down echoes of Faux News and the Weakly Standard.
I'm fairly certain he chose to bash Ron Paul because it serves his two main interests, strengthening the neocon agenda and attracting attention to his obscure blog.
I have yet to see a critic with a real argument to discredit Ron Paul. From the ones who have tried, they have yet to propose an alternative candidate that fits their own critical description.
61 - Daniel
If Ron Paul and his supporters are members of the tin foil hat brigade, so were the Founding Fathers and the framers of the constitution.
It was stated that the U.S. went to war against Iraq because there were reasons based on national security. Isnt that for Congress to decide? And if they decide so, where was the declaration of war? If this isnt to the author's tastes, how about amending the constitution instead of ignoring it? That is the difference between having a rule of law and a rule of men.
Ron Paul is right - if there is to be war against Iran, does anyone suppose that it will be a declared war or will U.N. resolutions be used as a method of circumventing this vital part of the constitution?
Thank God for at least one brave voice.
62 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
So far, the only intelligent comments I've seen here are those of A.K. Smith.
Like A.K. Smith, I don't support any foreign aid for Israel; it's really important to cut off the thieves in Jerusalem from their money teats in Washington, Rome and Brussels. People like Peres, whom the world's leaders all praise, haven't done a decent thing for Israel for over 30 years. But, evil as he is, at least he has a little more intelligence than the retards he left behind in the cabinet, Olmert, Livni, Barak and Ramon.
But this whole article is about a non-binding vote in the American House of Mirrors, a place where 435 windbags leave their "extended remarks" like so many farts in the wind. Who gives a rat's ass?
It is the State Department that decides America's policies, not the House of Mirrors. And the State Department long ago decided that a Jewish state was a strategic mistake, and has been trying to correct that mistake since 15 May 1948. Israel's biggest enemy is not some raghead with a hard-on, it is the United States of America and the oil and banking elite that rules it.
That sucks, but it's the truth.
63 - Nana
AK Smith-Obama talks about being a unifier but it is only Ron Paul who is actually capable of it. I'm Muslim and like you I am a big fan of Ron Paul. It's time we stopped sending money to the Middle East. All it does is prop up governments that are opposed to freedom. Israel is no American style democracy, with its apartheid system, and Egypt is none either with its iron fist dictatorship. And yet each and every American is giving about $20 a year to these countries.
64 - Nana
Ruvy-And the state department and its policies are one thing that the president has control over. So it is important that we get Ron Paul elected.
ronpaul2008.com
65 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Nana,
One of the things you learn when you study political science and public administration, as I have, is that the president has only theoretical control over the state department. The reality is that the state department usually cons the secretary into "going native" and supporting its priorities. In fact, this is generally true with most cabinet departments, but it is especially true with the state department.
Your sitting president is a hired hand of the Saudi monarchy, as is his daddy. That is why your freedoms are going down the drain. All this yak-yak about an election in 2008 is just that. I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime, November 2008 is 15 months away. Until then, it is just Obama Oshmama, Hillary Shmillary, and Paul Shmaul - any line of trash to keep your eyes off the ball.
As for the rest of you - especially you, slimedog...
Speaking as an Israeli, I have no trouble with the idea that the United States should get the hell out of the Middle East - and stay out. I don't give two shits about your "vital interests". The truth is that we do not need an "ally" that keeps twisting a knife in our back.
We don't need America to piss on us defending ourselves and calling it kosher, just like we do not need America to fuck up all of our weapons deals.
We have our own nukes, and can and SHOULD turn Riyadh, Jidda, Teheran and Damascus into nuclear glass. In addition, we should destroy the Aswan High Dam and end the existence of Egypt as a nation.
Then, if you all want to bitch about genocidal Israelis, at least you'll have something to bitch about. In the meantime, shut your faces, and get your money and your soldiers out of here - before they leave in body bags.
66 - jason
Who ever wrote this artical put their mouth on the barrel and their toe on the triger!
67 - Mark Edward Manning
Welcome to BC, Abel!
That is rather disturbing news re: Ron Paul. It sounds like he takes his antipathy toward foreign entaglements too far. His antipathy towards that resolution is puzzling and makes him out to be a bit of a knee-jerk anti-war activist. It's sad but true that some conservatives are just as eager to appease rogue states as most liberals are.
68 - Mark Edward Manning
Ruvy: "We have our own nukes, and can and SHOULD turn Riyadh, Jidda, Teheran and Damascus into nuclear glass. In addition, we should destroy the Aswan High Dam and end the existence of Egypt as a nation."
And what a lovely favor you'd be doing the world if you did!
69 - Mark Edward Manning
Ruvy, I agree that it's hard to take America seriously when we're still in bed with the Saudis. After all, it was mostly Saudi citizens who carried out the 9/11 atrocity; just as it's Saudi Arabia that poisons young Muslim minds throughout the Islamic world with their psychotic Wahabbist worldview. (Not necessarily that one has to subscribe to Wahhabism to be both Muslim and psychotic, I feel it worth mentioning!) Perhaps most angry young Muslims in the West, in Pakistan, in Palestine, etc. worship the ossified cave ground that Osama shits on, but we can never get past the question: what nationality is Osama? If we're serious about the W.o.T., then we need to tell the Saudis to go fuck themselves. But, oh gee, that'll never happen because American citizens are too addicted to their oil, so if you piss off Saudi Arabia, you piss off Americans by default. Bush finds himself in a bit of a catch-22.
Something's gotta give -- our oil-addicted way of life or the House of Saud. I wonder which will prove to be more important?
70 - crazychester
I shouldn't be astounded, but I am. What drivel this article is, but Paul is a true patriot in the second American revolution and has certainly ducked better attacks than this simple-minded attempt.
Simple fact checks my friend. Read a smidge of history! This spin is no better than the comedy I see on Fox "news". Are you just regurgitating the talking points from Tony Snow?
Just like on 9/11, the real terrorists in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia(you know that big country with significant Bush ties?). It has been reported recently that they represent more than 50% of the foreign insurgency in Iraq. Iran doesn't even rate a percentage worth mentioning, except in speeches by Bush, Snow, and Lieberman. Any condemnation resolutions from the U.N. on Saudi Arabia? Don't hold your breath.
Several posters mention "rogue" states. I suggest you buy and read "Rogue State" by William Blum. You'll find exponentially more state sponsored terrorism perpetrated by the U.S. and Israel. While we're at it, we can point out that the U.S. and Israel can veto any U.N. resolution they don't care for, namely the ones that condemn our ACTIONS while we try to condemn Iran for misinterpreted WORDS? The lie is being exposed slowly and the worst of the neo-con ilk are getting scared.
71 - Mark G.
The U.n. is a socialist elitist nation building useless organization that is a front for oneworld government
72 - Paul Furlong
I'm happy to see the responses to this hollow piece of writing. Allow me to quote from Uncle John's Bathroom Reader: "The first US coin to bear the words, United States of America, was a penny piece made in 1727. It was also inscribed with the plain spoken motto: "Mind Your Own Business."
Something to think about.... if Barney Schwartz wants to kill people in a foreign land, he can make a bomb, take it over there and set it off. Chances are someone from this foreign land might go looking for Barney in his three floor cold water walk up. If, however Barney could convince his Government to do the job for him....well, now they want all of us.... dig? Peace and let's mind our own business.
73 - Brandon
Has anyone seen Dave actually make any sort of argument, or is he only able to make smarmy comments?
74 - gonzo marx
interesting that some would put Paul into the "tinfoil hat" category, especially after this article previously...
personally, Ron Paul is one thing the rest of the GOP contenders are not
honest
i do not agree with some of his positions, but i find him refreshing in his courage to stand up and speak out for what he thinks
a valuable Lesson there for many...imo
Excelsior?
75 - Dr Dreadful
gonzo, I think Dave's target (he seems to have swapped his sniper's rifle for a blunderbuss) is not so much Paul himself as some of his supporters.
There were a couple more articles about Dr Paul on BC a month or two ago. (His candidacy has certainly stirred up a lot of interest here.) Go back and read those, and the threads attached to them, and you'll see what I mean.
His criticism is a little unfair, as every candidate attracts their share of kooks. But Paul's particular kooks seem to come from all over the spectrum, from white supremacists to anti-war conspiracy theorists.