Today, Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee no less, declared all hopes of a US victory in Iraq to be mistaken:
Saying the "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean predicted today that the Democratic Party will come together on a proposal to withdraw National Guard and Reserve troops immediately, and all US forces within two years.
Dean made his comments in an interview on WOAI Radio in San Antonio.
"I've seen this before in my life. This is the same situation we had in Vietnam. Everybody then kept saying, 'just another year, just stay the course, we'll have a victory.' Well, we didn't have a victory, and this policy cost the lives of an additional 25,000 troops because we were too stubborn to recognize what was happening."
Two quick thoughts here:
- Dean absolutely believes that Iraq is just another Viet Nam.
- Rather than stay and fight the terrorists, Dean believes we should run as fast as we can away from terrorists.
And, as outrageous and cowardly as that statement is, Dean didn't stop there. He went on to compare the controversy over pre-war intelligence to Watergate:
"What we see today is very much like what was going in Watergate," Dean said. "It turns out there is a lot of good evidence that President Bush did not tell the truth when he was asking Congress for the power to go to war. The president said last week that Congress saw the same intelligence that he did in making the decision to go to war, and that is flat out wrong. The president withheld some intelligence from the Senate Intelligence Committee. He withheld the report from the CIA that in fact there was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction (in Iraq), that they did not have a nuclear program. They (the White House) selectively gave intelligence to the United States Senate and the United States Congress and got them to give the go ahead to attack these people."
So, Iraq is Viet Nam and since the whole Plamegate issue has fizzled out, the pre-war intelligence issue becomes the new Watergate comparison.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Michael J. West
Conservatives have been saying for months now that Democrats are once again becoming the party of McGovern.
That comparison may be especially appropriate, considering that Democrats have been saying for at least that long that Republicans are again becoming the party of Nixon. The party, in other words, of abuse of power, subversion of the law, political smear and sabotage, conspiracy and secret government.
Remember what happened to Nixon? Think about it.
2 - Chief Wiggum
You forgot slick Willie Michael.
Only he got away with it.
HOward Dean goes on national TV and says "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for" and "the only people in the Republican party are white male christians."
You lefties love hearing this all the while screaming that Bush is the divisive one.
Give me a freakin break
3 - The Fifth Dentist
Yeah, Dean's just a McGovernite lefty defeatest who wants to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Let's ignore what he has to say. But how do you react to what Lt. Gen William Odom has to say about the war, which is pretty much the same as Dean's position, except even harsher.
Odom said Iraq is a much bigger clusterfuck than Vietnam ever was and that it is in fact the biggest strategic disaster in US history. Who is Odom? Another McGovernite? Actually, he was the head of the NSA under President Reagan.
4 - RJ
To those who think we should pull all our troops out of Iraq ASAP:
What do you suppose would happen the day after we leave (prematurely)?
And do you even care?
5 - The Fifth Dentist
RJ:
Yes, I know what would happen. Yes, I care. I'm neither a pacifist nor an isolationist. I believe in real-politik and balance of power theory. My idea of good foreign policy is Eisenhower, Nixon, and Bush I. My idea of bad foreign policy is Woodrow Wilson, Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter, and Bush II. I agree with General Odom that our continued presence over there is making things worse. It helps Iran and Al Qaida.
6 - Bennett
"HOward Dean goes on national TV and says "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for" and "the only people in the Republican party are white male christians."
You lefties love hearing this all the while screaming that Bush is the divisive one."
But weren't you just saying (on another thread) how much you hate liberals? Actually raving about it to the point of editorial deletion?
Hmmmmmm...
Good points 5th.
7 - The Fifth Dentist
Thanks Bennett. This really shouldn't be an ideological debate. Bush's foreign policy is not consistent at all with the republican tradition. This "spreading democracy" pablum sounds like Jimmy Carter to me. Let's pursue U.S. interests based on realistic objectives and a plan. Let's talk about why this Iraq operation is succeeding or failing. It doesn't matter who is making the argument. Discrediting the speaker is a logical fallacy which is getting very, very old.
8 - RogerMDillon
Dean does not believe we should run as fast as we can away from terrorists. That is a complete fabrication on your part.
"I think we need a strategic redeployment over a period of two years," Dean said. "Bring the 80,000 National Guard and Reserve troops home immediately. They don't belong in a conflict like this anyway. We ought to have a redeployment to Afghanistan of 20,000 troops, we don't have enough troops to do the job there and its a place where we are welcome. And we need a force in the Middle East, not in Iraq but in a friendly neighboring country to fight (terrorist leader Musab) Zarqawi, who came to Iraq after this invasion. We've got to get the target off the backs of American troops.
Two years is not "as fast as we can." Does he want the troops out of Iraq? Yes. Does he want some troops removed immediately? Yes. Does he have a different view than the administration? Yes. But if Dean is such a pacifist appeaser, why was does he want to send more troops to Afghanistan? Attack him about his views on pre-war intelligence, but stop making stuff up. Your lies bring down the morale of the troops.
Is it a comprehension issue or willful disinformation on your part? Issue a correction if you have any integrity.
Where's an editor when you actually need one?
P.S. the Plamegate isn't hasn't fizzled out.
9 - Wilson Kolb
If you go to Viewpoint Journal, where the article about Howard Dean was published, you'll find the usual collection of wingnut rants. So, Roger, the answer to your question is that it was willful disinformation. And no, a correction will not be issued. In Republo-world, personal responsibility and accountability are for others.
10 - RogerMDillon
I would then call on the site editors to contact the author and make him account for his flase statements.
11 - MCH
"To those who think we should pull all our troops out of Iraq ASAP:
What do you suppose would happen the day after we leave (prematurely)?
And do you even care?"
- RJ
Those courageous American soldiers who were serving there (because they believe actions speak louder than words) would return home alive.
Yes, because I don't believe American lives should be sacrificed for the sake of those who promote the invasion from their keyboards.
12 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Fifth Dentist, I actually find myself agreeing with you that Iraq is a "clusterfuck." The question is "why?"
There are a whole host of possible reasons that one can find; faulting the Joint Chiefs in their tactics or strategy, badly chosen grand strategy dictated by the political echelon in your country, corruption from the White House, etc.
That assumes that everything is going to according the norms in American life, and that this enterprise needs to be brought under control, etc. corrected, or if necessary abandoned. The key element to all of this reasoning is that Americans (officials) are in control.
There are other possible approaches to all of this that move along a different path of reasoning.
An example is a theory put forth that the point of this enterprise in Iraq is to pull Amnerican troops out of the US, so that foreign troops can be brought in. Cited by the person pushing this theory is what happened at Hurricane Katrina. According to this theory, FEMA was supposed to be thoroughly unprepared for the disaster that occurred so that the ability to bring in foreign troops culd be tested.
There is a lot more to this, of course, but I'm not setting this forth to argue its veracity, but to merely illustrate that OTHER possibilities exist than the standard arguments we see going back and forth here.
Also, I agree with you that this ought not be an ideological debate at all. Rather than allowing yourselves to be driven by what some fool in your government says on any given day, maybe a quiet and careful look at what in reality is occurring would be more helpful. Not that anybody on Blog Critics is going to solve the problem or stop some kid from getting needlessly killed. But, understanding allows you to figure out what in reality is going on - and deal with it.
There may be more to all this than appears.
13 - Chief Wiggum
Bennet.....
Yes I did say that.
But I'm not the head of one of the 2 major political parties in this country. So it's a little different.
Wilson... that is exactly what Dean said. A direct quote. He said it before the DNC on Feb 12, 2005. Just because you choose not to believe it does not mean he didn't say it. I know that's how liberals think. "If I don't believe something then it must not be true and I cann call anyone who disagrees with me a liar."
It's not just about Dean or even if we can succceed in this war though. It's about the attitude the far left has toward Americ in genral. Depsite what some of you might wish to believe the far left is not expressing thier right to dissent." Rather they are spewing anti-american venomous hatred.
When Cindy Sheehan says "America is not even worth fighting for" is that dissent or anti American sentiment?
Whan Natalie, who posts on here, constantly refers to the young American men and women serving in uniform in Iraq as "American Death Brigaders," is that dissent or anti americanism? MCH you called them courageous and I agree so what do you think of Natalie referrign to them as American Death Brigaders?
When the mainstream media does everything they can to tell the American public all the bad gory details about the war and Iraq but goes out of thier way to ignore or triviliaze every single good piece of news from the area, what are we to make of that?
When hollywood celebrities do nothing but badmouth America and it's citizens all day long what are we to think?
When certain supreme court justices cite foreign law rather than the US constitution in thier decisions, what's going on?
I'm not saying every liberal or so called progressive hates America but anyone with 2 eyes, ears, and a functioning brain can see that there is a faction on the extreme left that does. They are trying to impose an atmosphere of moral relativism and subvert traditional American morality.
14 - The Fifth Dentist
Chief Wiggum: "Wilson... that is exactly what Dean said. A direct quote. He said it before the DNC on Feb 12, 2005. Just because you choose not to believe it does not mean he didn't say it. I know that's how liberals think. "If I don't believe something then it must not be true and I cann call anyone who disagrees with me a liar."
Here is a link to the full text of Dean's remarks on Feg 12, 2005 from the Houston Chronicle.
The only reference to Iraq in the entire speech was when he said "[t]heir budget doesn't account for the cost of the war in Iraq, or privatizing Social Security."
What exactly are claiming that he said in that speech?
15 - Dave Nalle
I would then call on the site editors to contact the author and make him account for his flase statements.
Roger, it's not a lie, it's his interpretation of the comment quoted immediately prior to it, and it's hardly an innacurate characterization of that comment. 2 years could very well be 'as fast as we can' when more level heads are talking about 5-10 years to complete our job in Iraq.
Dave
16 - Chief Wiggum
I said that Dean said "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for."
He did.
Who said anything about Iraq fifth?
17 - The Fifth Dentist
I just listened to the entire 8 minute interview with Dean from link in the story. I agree that the quotes in this article are accurate. I disagree entirely with the opinion portion of this article, but I think it's a fair disagreement. The author of this article thinks that getting the troops out of Iraq would be a cowardly retreat from the war on terror. Dean believes that American troops in Iraq are serving very little purpose except for providing a target for the terrorists and unifying the Iraqi opposition which would otherwise splinter. I agree with Dean. Calling Dean a cowardly McGovernite doesn't change the facts. Look at Flanagan's argument: we're "winning" the war because we're "kicking butt." But I've got news for you, we kicked plenty of butt in Vietnam and we lost because the mission was doomed from the start. We napalmed half the country and we still couldn't win because we were trying to do something which was damn near impossible.
18 - Christopher Rose
CHIEF WIGGUM: I just wanted to express my appreciation that you have evolved your commentary into a more sophisticated style of debate. I hope you are enjoying the different atmosphere this has created. I am. Thank you.
19 - Matthew T. Sussman
Democrats: "We'll leave as soon as it's practical."
Republicans: "We'll leave as soon as it's practical."
And apparently there's disagreement on this?
20 - Nancy
I'm no Bushie, but even I think Dean is a bit over the top. I don't think he's an asset to the DNC, however the party leaders must think so, because he's still in position. Maybe, like McClellan speaking for BushCo, he gets to say the more outrageous things that those like Reid or Pelosi would like to say but are constrained from ... altho I've got to admit also that Pelosi is not known for her verbal reserve.
For the record, I think Iraq is already engaged in civil war, sunnis & "insurgents" (terrorists) against everybody else - with the blessing of Iran & Syria. Claiming that this isn't civil war is just playing semantics games, IMO. And considering the barbaric nature & cultures of these middle-eastern goofs, no, I don't care. Fighting has been their form of recreation for millenia. Why should they stop now?
21 - RogerMDillon
"When hollywood celebrities do nothing but badmouth America"
Yet Wiggum names himself after a Hollywood creation that mocks law enforcement, deflating his arguements.
Dave, it is a falsehood and his silence speaks volumes. Where in the article is Dean's two-year withdrawal mentioned? If Flanagan wants to attack that idea, have at it, but to distort and omit to make an arguement is pathetic. McGovern wanted immediate withdrawal from Vietnam if he was elected. That is not the same as a withdrawal over two years. Do you not see them as different?
The line "Rather than stay and fight the terrorists, Dean believes we should run as fast as we can away from terrorists." is inaccurate. "As fast as we can" is immediate and that's the implication being used. Could the President order an immediate withdrawal regardless of the consequences of Iraq and the world and pull every troop out? Are we not going to "stay and fight the terrorists" over the course of two years.
Other than religious discussions, I wish that just once that you'd surprise everyone and hold conservative bloggers to the same standards you hold liberal ones.
22 - Michael J. West
I don't think he's an asset to the DNC, however the party leaders must think so, because he's still in position.
He keeps breaking DNC fundraising records. That probably reinforces their belief that he is an asset.
23 - Chief Wiggum
Matthew you claim the Dems and Reps are saying the same thing.
Democrats: "We'll leave as soon as it's practical."
Republicans: "We'll leave as soon as it's practical."
And apparently there's disagreement on this?"
However you didn't mention motivation.
I believe the Republicans are saying this because they believe we will ultimately be successful in Iraq and the best course of action would be to pull the troops at a later point in time when Iraq is more stable.
I believe the Dems are saying the saemt hing because someone took an opinion poll that showed the public is in favor of "leaving as soon as it's practical."
Sort of liek Hillary supporting the war and toning down her abortion on demand rhetoric. Gee I wonder why she's doign that? Why oh why could she be singing a more moderate tune all of a sudden?
24 - Chief Wiggum
Roger .... Chief Wiggum is a CARTOON charcter who has never bad mouthed America. Plus he makes me laugh.
I'm talking about REAL people who have become rich thanks to this nation and then they turn around and shit alover it every chance they get.
What's your point?
25 - The Fifth Dentist
Chief Wiggum: "I said that Dean said "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for." He did. Who said anything about Iraq fifth?"
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to. Dean actually made that statement in New York on Jan. 30, 2005 when he was running for the DNC chairmanship, not on Feb 12, 2005. Also, that statement was not on national TV as you indicated. It was a quote picked up by the Daily News.
Incidentally, nobody ever responded to my point that Gen. William Odom, former head of the NSA under Reagan, is basically saying the same thing about Iraq as Dean, if not harsher. Is this guy another lefty, McGovernite coward or do we need to consider the merits of what he's saying.