The leader of the largest branch of American Judaism blasted conservative religious activists in a speech Saturday, calling them "zealots" who claim a "monopoly on God" while promoting anti-gay policies akin to Adolf Hitler's.
Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the liberal Union for Reform Judaism, took his place alongside other "religious-left" leaders, saying that "religious-right" leaders preach that "unless you attend my church, accept my God and study my sacred text you can not be a moral person."
"What could be more bigoted than to claim that you have a monopoly on God?" he said to a receptive audience during the movement's national assembly in Houston, which runs through today.
He used particularly strong language to condemn conservative attitudes toward homosexuals. He said he understood that traditionalists have concluded gay marriage violates Scripture, but he said that did not justify denying legal protections to same-sex partners and their children. Of the three major streams of US Judaism — Orthodox and Conservative are the others — the Reform movement is the only one that supports civil marriage for same-gender couples.
"We cannot forget that when Hitler came to power in 1933, one of the first things that he did was ban gay organizations," Yoffie said. "Yes, we can disagree about gay marriage. But there is no excuse for hateful rhetoric that fuels the hellfires of anti-gay bigotry."
***
Yoffie also urged lawmakers to model themselves on presidential candidate John F. Kennedy, who famously told a Houston clergy group in 1960 that a president should not make policy based on his religion.
Contrast Yoffie's words about Kennedy with President Bush, who recently tried to win support for Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers on her evangelical Christian background.
***
This item first appeared at Journalists Against Bush's B.S.
Edited: nd
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - The Fifth Dentist
Thanks for this post, one of many good ones by you. I feel a little better knowing that there is at least one religious leader in this country who isn't a complete schmuck.
2 - david r. mark
The "religious left" exists, but they don't have the same access to the media, like a Pat Robertson. They're also not as outspoken, nor as prone to, for example, ask for G-d to smite a community for acknowledging gay rights.
3 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I won't comment on the conservative Christian pastors. Christians and Moslems have been both claiming a monopoly on the G-d of the Universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, for about a millennia and a half now. It is tiresome to hear, and at least in Jerusalem, I don't have to listen to them.
But a man who calls himself "rabbi" has to know Torah. This Yoffie fellow evidently does not know that Torah describes lying with a man as though with a woman as an abomination.
This Yoffie fellow presumes to know better than G-d and Moses. He deserves no respect as a rabbi, for one cannot rely on his judgment to reach any intelligent decisions based on Torah.
His words belie this.
The best thing he can do is to lead his flock into Unitarianism. At least then, he will not sin further by by denying the Word of G-d and the Law of Moses. The Unitarians can do that for him.
I truly feel sorry for the Reform Jews of America. They cut themselves off more from their eternal heritage daily, chasing after the gods of political correctness and popularity with non-Jews.
4 - The Fifth Dentist
Ruvy --
As you are a self-proclaimed expert on the torah let me ask you this:
Doesn't Leviticus refer to a number of things as "abominations" including:
-- eating non-kosher food
-- mixing or breeding various kinds of cattle
-- wearing a garment made of two kinds of material mixed together
-- getting a tattoo
-- trimming your beard
Do you have any reason to believe that this so-called prohibition on homosexuality is somehow more important than the other 600 commandments?
5 - DubyahLovah
thats great news...one of the most powerful jews in the country parallelling the conservatives to nazis...thats actually hilarious.
danke shoen, juden!
6 - david r. mark
You clearly want to take the rabbi's words out of context.
He's not talking about all conservatives, obviously. He's talking about a specific group of self-righteous religious zealots who feel hatred toward anyone -- in this case, gays -- is an appropriate interpretation of the bible.
The rabbi's point is that there isn't any room for hatred among religious leaders. Hatred should be left for hateful people, like Hitler.
But please, take his words out of context for your amusement. Whatever makes you sleep better at night, right?
7 - the gentle gentile
1. The religious left does not exist. the left is full of nihilistic godless trash who believe in nothing and condemn conservatives with beliefs.
2. This rabbi has obviously grown his sideburns past his ears because he fails to listen to the true principles behind religious conservatives. they are not the zealots they claim to be. he has come to this notion because Bush is openly Christian. this is coming from a man who "leads" an elitist religion. "condemn the gentiles!!!"
3. He has only brought shame upon the jews. as mentioned above...it is clearly in the bible/torah (Old Testament) that God condemned men to have sexual relations with each other. It is because of his religion and his people that we are over in Iraq fighting. Iraq posed as an imminent threat to israel....of which saddam could have used his weapons against. that is what it comes down to. not oil or this finishing-what-daddy-started bullshit.
8 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
David,
I did not conclude that Yoffie was condemning all conservatives. In his speech made on Saturday!! (was this putz also violating the Sabbath? - some rabbi!) he granted that "traditionalists" (he demotes Law to mere tradition, and then characterizes those seeking to follow it as "traditionalists" - typical rhetoric from a Jew trying to "pass" in a secular Christian society) have concluded that gay marriage violates scripture.
Actually "gay marriage" is not mentioned in scripture at all - at least not in our Book. What IS mentioned is homosexual behavior by men. Again - the behavior NOT the people engaging in it - is called an abomination.
Logic dictates that if a certain kind of behavior is an abomination, one ought not to sanction it in civil law. But I left America and you Americans can stew in the mess you're making for yourselves. It's your mess, and you're entitled to it.
We have our own messes to sort out. Like terrorists trying to blow us to bits.
No, what truly bothers me about Yoffie and his merry band is that they lead American Jews into sin - pepperoni pizza in a "temple?" - and that they try to foist their trash and bullshit on us in Israel.
They want to dilute the faith here, they support your government when it weakens this country by backing Arabs, they support traitors like "Peace Now", they supported the division of the land, the Gaza expulsion of Jews. They support openly violating the Sabbath with the business enterprises they run here.
When the country was in the grip of Arab terrorism, they were the FIRST to cancel tours to protect their precious asses. Christian conservatives came on tours here while Reform Jews had all the courage of yellow cowards.
So Reform Jews are at best fair weather friends. This due to the influence of such wonderful people as Yoffie. Éizeh yófi! How nice!
There are many "religious" Jews who violate the law in various ways and abuse people in various ways while hiding behind their "piety". This is contemptible and I'll be the first one to say so. I often am.
But I was once a teacher in a Reform "temple," at the request of the Talmud Torah I sent my kids to. One day I let on that my day job was managing a Burger King. Immediately the kids raised their hands and hollered out what they wnated me to bring the next time I taught them - cheeseburgers.
Is refusing to teach Jewish children basic concepts of Judaism like kashrút such a virtue? When I was a kid, I didn't keep strictly kosher all the time. But I at least knew enough to know what I was doing wrong - and not to brag about in synagogue.
The kids I taught didn't even know!! What a pity. What a loss.
9 - Alethinos
Ruvy... You really know how to put the ANAL in retentive...
Alethinos
10 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Sorry. I must have forgotten to take my Prozac today.
11 - The Fifth Dentist
Ruvy:
Was I correct when I stated that according to Leviticus giving another man a blow job is no worse than eating lobster?
12 - gonzo marx
to Fifth...
you are absolutely correct...
there are many things within "the Law and the Prophets" (the old Testment as referred to by Yeshua ben Miriam) that even the strictest, most Orthodox Jew doesn't hold to today...
even in Israel they don't stone adulterers or misbehaving children...
to my way of Thinking , a heck of a lot of problems occur when folks start taking ANYTHING written by the Hand of Men as being the "literal word of God"....if you check your history..you will find many conflicts that involve untold deaths revolving around arguments over which is the True "Word"
yet almost none recognize that these words are/were written by fallible Men...and at the very best they claim to be "inspired"
yeah...right...and if someone stood up now and claimed to be a Prophet with the Word he woudl et torn to shreds by the very folks that claim to be the most pious
Ruvy...more power to you for your Faith, and i wil defend your Right to follow however that may lead...but when you begin casting aspersions on other sects within your own cultural/religious/racial group because you do not share SOME of the tenets then you fall into the same category as a Fallwell/Robertson who condem other "christians" for not following their sects views
it is not for Man to Judge, it is for Man to strive his best...Judgement, if it comes, will be after we have passed from this Plane of Existance...and while anyone can claim "knowledge" of what comes next, only a true yutz follows blindly
nuff said?
Excelsior!
13 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Fifth Dentist,
I haven't answered you till now because I am NOT an expert in Torah. I have to look the stuff up. The word in Chapter 11 of Leviticus that you might see as "abominate" in the English translation is lishkótz (the verb) and shéketz (the noun), carrying the meaning of abhorrence or staying away from so as to avoid contamination. This is the term dealing with consumption of food. The word used in Chapter 18 in reference to homosexual behavior is to'evá, which is a noun. So a different meaning is implied.
So the answer is no. Homosexual behavior is not at the same level as eating shellfish, or pork. But a rabbi will generally not rank the commnandments one above another, lest they be viewed the way Catholics view levels of sin, some being less important than others.
Blow jobs are not mentioned in the Bible, at least not to my knowledge.
14 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gonzo,
Thank you for gallantly offering to defend my right to follow however my faith might lead. But unless you are actually here in Israel, that will be difficult for you to do.
I am a police volunteer.
Last night I stood patrol at one of the edges of the city with my pistol (my shoulder was bothering me, ao I didn't take a carbine with me) enjoying an evening with a fellow English speaker, a man who knows a lot more Torah than I and was helping me to understand some of the concepts I had been trying to put forth on Blog Critics.
Suddenly, a patrol car stopped by with a "hot warnng" of a terrorist attempting to get into Jerusalem. Suddenly I could see a police helicopter overhead. The cops inside the car stopped all traffic entering the city and had me asnd my comrade standing in the background with a mechanism to throw on the road that would puncture the tires of a vehicle attempting to rush a roadblock.
My colleague was to throw the mechanism. I waited with an open holster, ready to fire if needed. I mentally aimed the pistol at the engine of the car, so that I would not hurt civilians.
I DEFEND MY OWN RIGHTS.
In the end, I have little problem with "Reform" Judaism - as bad as it makes me feel - so long as it keeps its long Jewish nose OUT of my country and OUT of my security concerns.
Having seen thse people for the fairweawther friends they are, I don't care how others in "safer" places in exile view my words. They have been nothing but a danger to Jews in this country and to Judaism in this country. Some of the danger I had to deal with last night is directly attributable to their interference in the affairs of this country.
I'm not talking about arguments over doctrine or faith. I'm talking about the security of my home.
When Eric Yoffie shuts up about Israel I'll shut up up about Eric Yoffie. Until then, I'll feel free to speak my mind.
'Nuff said?
15 - The Fifth Dentist
Ruvy: Thanks for your learned answer. OK, so now we know, that according to God, homosexual acts are worse than violating dietary restrictions. So I ask you this: do you agree with God's clearly stated commandment that homosexuals should be put to death? If not, why not? Personally, I don't. It's inhuman. No God that I would worship could possibly command that. To me, it's so stupid and uncivilized that it calls into question everything else written on the same page. But if you're going to start picking and choosing the parts of the torah that need can be disregarded, please explain to me how you're any different than the reform jews who do the same thing?
16 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gonzo. let me be a bit specific. I may have been just a bit vague with my words and it might be construed as an ad hominem attack to some commenters. I respect ALL of my colleagues at Blog Critics, no matter what their views may be. The next to the last paragraph in comment #14 should read:
"Having seen thse people for the fairweawther friends they are, I don't care how others in "safer" places in exile view my words. The leaders of the Reform Jews in America have been nothing but a danger to Jews in this country and to Judaism in this country. Some of the danger I had to deal with last night is directly attributable to their interference in the affairs of this country."
17 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Fifth Dentist, if I keep this up, I may have to sign up for courses at a kollel (a school for married men) to learn.
It so happens that I was discussing this very matter with a colleague of mine on patrol last night (see comment #14).
First of all, this all applies only if the Torah is being applied as law in Israel. And Leviticus applies to those living here. One cannot attempt to enforce the laws in Leviticus on non-Jews outside of Israel.
I repeat - a rabbi will generally not rank the commandments one above another, lest they be viewed the way Catholics view levels of sin, some being less important than others.
Having said this, we move to the fact that Chapter 20 of Levitcus makes homosexual behavior a capital crime. According to Torah, you need two witnesses to convict someone of a capital crime. You cannot just make an accusation. And here we come to an interesting little point.
Two people might see a murder committed. If they serve as witnesses, and the judges believe them, the accused will be convicted and sentenced to death.
Sexual behavior generally goes on behind closed doors in private. So if this homosexual behavior does go on behind closed doors, in private, between two people, it is unlikely that there will be two witnesses. Thus it is unlikely that there will be an accusation, let alone a trial. It could come to that, but given that the pair of men (lesbian behavior appears to get a free pass, for reasons that are mysterious to me) cold be held liable for a capital offense, they will likely shut up.
So apparently, in spite of the wording, private behavior between two consenting adult men is not what is being condemned here. So what is?
Behavior in which one would have two witnesses - i.e. an orgy or, as in the case of Sodom, a attempted gang rape. So the kind of behavior you see in mens' jails is a good example of where you would see the laws against homosexual behavior possibly enforced.
Finally there is the issue that comes up in all capital cases - can the witnesses be believed? What if both - or all of them are lying? A person's life may depend on this issue.
During the arly days of the priesthood, there was an item called the "umim and tumim" - precious stones set in a gizmo that looked like a calculator that the High Priest wore around his chest. The High Priest could ask G-d if the witnesses were truthful, and the answer - yea or nay - would come in colored lights that the High Priest could read.
After the sacking of the First Temple, the Sh'khiná, the Presence of G-d, was not present among the High Priests. They had no way of determining the truthfulness of a witness.
A different solution was hit upon. The person convicted of the capital crime would be sentenced to death. But it was arranged that an escape from the prison could occur, and the accused was given to understand to leave and not come back. Thus, the judges would not have innocent blood on their hands.
Finally, to answer your question. IF Torah law is being applied in Israel, and IF I'm right about how it works - homosexual behavior between consenting male adults would not be condemned at all if it were carried on in private. If it was a public orgy or a rape with two witnesses, it would be a capital crime.
If I could be sure of the truthfulness of the witnesses, then I would want the convicts executed. If not, I'd want them permanently expelled from the country,
The reason follows below:
I refer you to the end of Chapter 18 of the Holiness Code - "Do not become contaminated through any of these; for through all these the nations that I expel before you became contaminated. The Land became contaminated and I recalled its iniquity upon it; and the land disgorged its inhabitants."
(Lev.18:24-25).
We Jews were expelled twice from our homeland. That is historical record, and prophesied in the Torah. And exile has been a bitch. So, since I don't want a Divine Hand (or Foot) kicking me or my wife and kids out again, I do what I can to obey the Law as I see it. It is a matter of self interest to me that other Jews living here IN ISRAEL do not PUBLICALLY practice homosexuality - or the other goodies prohibited in the Holiness Code - for the same reason
18 - gonzo marx
Ruvy...
you seem to misconstrue my points here...
for one, i fail to see how a Reformed Rabbi , speaking in America about America can be any kind of "danger" to Israel...but i am more than willing to keep an open mind here, bcause i do NOT have first hand knowledge of Israel...merely anectodes from friends who have been/lived/worked or were born there...i DO understand that the political as well as the theological rifts within the country are just as sharp and deep as anywhere else in the world...
so please, enlighten me how the words of this rabbi here in the states poses a security concern for Israel?
next, you seem to have missed my point entirely abotu adherence to dogma originated by Man masquerading as the "Word"...merely because that individual said so at that point in history...
lesson, parables, guidelines for Life and human behaviour...YES....
but the infallible word of YHWH?
let's take a small example from the Old Testament just for the sake of conversation...
an old Prophet walks home every evening and gets teased by children for being a bald headed old coot...night after night this goes on, until it begins to piss this Prophet off...he speaks to YHWH and the next night, as the children begin to tease him once again..the Lord sends down some hungry bears to maul the children to death
now...is this supposed to be Literal Truth?..or a parable about respecting your Elders?
same Prophet in another chapter ....he knows Angels are coming in disguise to visit him, to check up on his Piety and adherance to YHWH's Law...but some of the local folk find out about it and begin to pester him, they want ot meet the Angels as well...finally he gives the crowd his virgin daughters to do with as they will as long as they leave him alone with his "guests"
by now i am fairly certain that you will recognize this Prophet as the one you set an empty plate for and leave the door open for in case of his return...
my pint here is NOT to denigrate anyone's beliefs...but to cause a moments pause in thinking about the difference between any kind of Literal assertations versus analogy, parable and metaphor as used for a teaching tool in ancient times in order to pass along accumulated wisdom and so that the priest class could rule a bit easier...
as for Comment #14...i understand that you defend your own Rights....as do all jews in Israel...hence the requirement for all citizens to spend some time in your army...a policy i heartily endorse myself...my statement was from the American view that i have/will always defend the basic Rights of others...hence my own time in the US military
Ruvy sez...
*But I left America and you Americans can stew in the mess you're making for yourselves. It's your mess, and you're entitled to it.*
as for this little statement, you lose a few points with me for the sentiments implied here...and so i will flip the script...how abotu you Israeli's stew in the mess you have made for yourselves WITHOUT the billions in cash we Americans give, much less the military clout we add in support of your Nation?
not that great an idea, eh?
i'll settle for not having Israeli espionage folks working in our country (see headlines a few months ago when a few got busted for stealing US secrets)
but even better would be for all so called "hard liners" from ALL sides of the conflicts to just get over themselves and stop fighting over Words written thousands of years ago...
a smart Rabbi once said "judge not , lest ye be Judged"
just a Thought...
Excelsior!
19 - david r. mark
"When Eric Yoffie shuts up about Israel I'll shut up up about Eric Yoffie. Until then, I'll feel free to speak my mind." -- Ruvy
Ruvy:
Eric Yoffie isn't talking about Israel. He's talking about the U.S. -- specifically the James Dobson/Pat Robertson crowd in the U.S., who he feels are trying to hijack religion for political means.
Perhaps the conversation here has steered that way, but at no time did Yoffie make points during his speechabout religion in Israel.
20 - The Fifth Dentist
Ruvy:
With all due respect, I find it intellectually dishonest to defend a rule requiring the execution of consenting adult homosexuals on the grounds that the rule has evidentiary requirements that are difficult to establish. You kind of wriggled out of that one without facing up to the barbarity of such a rule. So I ask you again, with all due respect, assuming there are two jews, in Israel, engaging in homosexual acts in front of at least two witnesses: do you believe that God wants those people put to death? If you say "yes", then you have less in common with me than you do with the people of Saudi Arabia. If you say "no", please tell me why you are not liberally interpreting the torah to conform to the principles of the enlightenment. I happen to think your real answer is "no" but you find that answer inconvenient for obvious reasons because it puts you in the same boat as reform jews. At least they're intellectually honest about the fact that ancient scripture needs to be updated to conform to the modern ethical values which all civilized people share.
21 - Bat Boy
I am proud to be part of a reform temple that has a gay rabbi and has taught me philosophy, and interpretative thought, instead of rule after rule.
22 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Bat Boy, if you learned interpretive thought and philosophy from your rabbi, that's excellent. No go on from there and learn Jewish law. Philosophy is like crepe paper. You need the corkboard to tack it to - that's law.
23 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Fifth Dentist;
I appear to have been looking in the wrong places for my answers. But I'll return to that in a moment. Let's get a few points clear first.
1. So far as Jews are concerned, the 613 commandments in the Torah apply only to JEWS and to righteous strangers LIVING IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.
2. As far as Jews are concerned, the rules that apply to non-Jews living OUTSIDE the Land of Israel are the Seven Laws of Noah. The concept here is that under Torah Law only righteous non-Jews who have already accepted these Seven Laws are allowed to live here. Others are not.
3. This is NOT the situation now. Torah law is NOT the legal code for sexual behavior in the STATE of Israel. Torah law, as applied by the Chief Rabbinate, DOES apply in determining who is a Jew, who inherits and in laws of marriage and divorce. Moslem and Christian courts apply their repective laws here in the same areas mentioned above, legally defined as "areas of personal status" in the Code of Law of the STATE of Israel. There is no such thng presently as "civil marriage" in the STATE of Israel.
4. Up until now, there have been no courts to effectively apply the Seven Laws of Noah or to interpret them properly. Come this January, this will be begin to be rectified.
5. AT THIS POINT the standing interpretation is that under the Seven Laws of Noah, homosexual behavior would be forbidden.
6. AT THIS POINT the standing interpretation is that in determning guilt for a capital crime, under the Seven laws of Noah, the Biblical standard set forth in Torah, that of requiring two (or more) witnesses for a conviction, would be followed.
7. AT THIS POINT - TO MY KNOWLEDGE - homoxexual behavior would remain a capital offense under the Seven Laws of Noah.
8. With respect to points 5,6 and 7, a properly constituted High Noahide Council will have to make these decisions, under the supervision of the Sanhedrin in Israel.
I suggest you digest these points first before continuing.
------------------------------------------
A rabbi talking social policy in the United States must keep in mind the Seven Laws of Noah as a guide. It is these laws and the interpretation of them that needs to be his normative guide in dealing what non-Jews should and should not do. This is particularly important for a "reform" rabbi because his own flock usually inludes a lot of non-Jews.
Frankly, I'm not sure that Eric Yoffie could recite the Seven laws of Noah if asked. Frankly, I'm not sure if he even understands that at one point in the future, the Seven Laws of Noah will be the base for all law on the planet. I'm not even sure that Eric Yoffie even believes in a Redemption, or in the coming of the messiah.
From what I have seen of "reform" Judaism, it is views Torah as nothing more than nice stories providing a guide for behavior.
---------------------------------------
Now, as to dealing with a capital case. The key point here is that under Torah law, and under the Seven Laws of Noah AS THEY ARE PRESENTLY INTERPRETED, homosexual behavior is a capital crime. This means that conviction of this behavior incurs the death penalty.
So the life of the accused is at stake. When this is so, the totality of the case must be considered. The judges must pause and consider all the issues involved. It is not enough to say, "homosexual behavior = death penalty. Get out the gallows, boys! Tell Chester to set up his hot dog stand! We have ourselves a hanging!"
Maybe you like the idea of a "hanging judge." I don't. I suspect you don't either.
One of the issues in the totality of a capital case is the reliablilty of witnesses. In ancient Israel, when the High Priests had the "umim and tumim" - a direct link to G-d to ensure the veracity of the winesses, then G-d's law could be applied as written. "Their blood is on their heads - they shall surely be put to death." But during the second Judean commonwealth, this direct link did not exist. So judges of the inferior Sanhedrins did not put people to death but allowed them to escape. The judges did not want to shed blood that MIGHT be innocent.
That's not intellectual dishonesty. Given that the Sanhedrin could not rewrite the Torah, they found a way around it because a key condition - absolute veracity of a witness - could not be guaranteed. Rather than shed possibly innocent blood, they allowed the convict the choice of exile by allowing him to escape. The judges were protecting their own souls, and getting rid of the criminal.
But that doesn't answer your question.
-----------------------------------------------
G-d created the universe some 14.3 billion years ago. He created its laws of evolution, and by them, some humans have an instinctual desire to couple with members of the same sex. I'd be an arrogant fool indeed to think that an Entity that can comprehend ALL possibility would not foresee this.
I'd be small minded to think that an such an Entity would seek the death of individuals engaging in this instinctive behavior in the privacy of their own homes in a fashion that did not appear to harm others. In other words, consenting adults engaging in sex because their instincts drove them to seek out members of the same sex, BUT with their sense of morality demanding that this be a matter of mutual enjoyment and fulfillment, rather than exploitation.
Yet there is the Holiness Code. Because private behavior does not involve witnesses by its nature, the fact that homosexual behavior is a capital crime REQUIRING WITNESSES TO CONVICT means that something other than this consensual private behavior is involved.
In Sodom, two strangers came to the city and were greeted by one not really considered as a citizen there. The citizens of the town demanded to "know" the strangers, gathering as a mob in front of his house. From the text, it is pretty evident that "knowing" them meant gang rape and their host tried to protect his guests by offering his own virgin daughters. The Sodomites were so depraved that even abusing two scared girls in a gang rape wasn't good enough.
If you think of what led to the depravity of the inhabitants of Sodom OVER TIME, you can figure out what this prohibition on homosexual behavior is about. And you should be able to figure out why it is a capital offense. I can only guess, but apparently, the Almighty sees an evil in public or institutionalized homosexual behavior that leads people to dispense with even basic rules of hospitality that would allow two strangers to visit a home and remain unmolested. That's prettty low.
Looking at all this from a slightly differnt angle, the Holiness Code implies "tzniút" modesty in behavior, particularly sexual behavior.
Sexual behavior in private is okay - apparently even between homosexual men.
But when you abandon this modesty, you get a sexualizing of society - first young women, then young girls, and eventually even young boys. All sorts of things follow in its wake. Abortion on demand, euthanasia, mercy killing. And down the slippery slope you go. Since sexual behavior involves a high level of tust, you get exploitation along with the "sexy sexy." Over time, you start getting depravity. Eventually, by one route or another, you wind up at the level of Sodom.
So, if this level of depravity is alright with you, I guess I'd rather sound like a Wahhabi savage in Nejd than you.
As to homosexual marriage in the States. Marriage, in the States, involves considerable economic benefits. One of our colleagues listed a whole series of them on a different thread. I suggest to you that a lot of the debate over homosexual marriage is about the economic benefits denied to homosexuals who set up house together - money.
Finally, to get a good understanding of Jewish juidicial points of view with respect to homosexual behavior, one needs to look at the body of judicial work over the centuries - the responsa of the rabbis. I have neither the resources nor time to do this.
24 - The Fifth Dentist
Ruvy:
That was quite a long post. I appreciate your thoroughness and willingness to engage in a serious discussion.
What you're saying really boils down to this:
(1) The torah commands executing adult, consenting homosexuals but only when there are two reliable witnesses.
(2) This is never going to happen in practice unless the people involved are putting on a Sodom and Gomorrah style sex show.
(3) Therefore, the torah can be strictly followed without having to execute homosexuals unless they are putting on a sex show in public.
The intellectually dishonest part of your argument is #2. It allows you to pretend that you're following the torah strictly when in fact you are rejecting the parts of it that are too barbaric to be followed. As with all fundamentalists, you need to claim that you follow the torah strictly in order to discredit those who admittedly reject the parts that are reprehensible (e.g., reform jews) and who therefore aren't correct followers of the religion.
Here's where your argument falls apart. It's easy to come up with a realistic hypothetical in which the behavior of the two individuals is private and yet there are two witnesses. The situation is when the two people admit what they had done. You alluded to it in a previous post when you wrote "given that the pair of men could be held liable for a capital offense, they will likely shut up." "Likely" is a far cry from impossible, particularly if the two people are honest. (There is still a commandment about lying, isn't there?)
So once again, I'd like to ask you, and please answer "yes" or "no" if possible: Do you advocate executing consenting, adult homosexuals where the sex was completely private but where the two people involved are honest enough to admit it in court?
I have no problem answering this question. The obvious answer for all non-wahabbists is "no." (Quite frankly, execution is far too serious a penalty even for a public sex show.) And if the torah says the opposite, well we're not going to follow the parts of the torah that reflect the barbaric social values of a primitive ancient people and have no place in a civlized society in the twentieth century. That's the view of reform judaism in a nutshell.
25 - gonzo marx
what...no commentary on my Elijah stories and their ramifications?
interesting...
Excelsior!