Some reflections on election day and the aftermath from a local Republican.
President Barack Obama. Not the words which most Republicans had hoped to hear on election night, but a reality most could see coming. The failures of the Republican Party to rein in its excesses, stick to its principles and pursue positive policies over opportunistic self-interest played as large a role in winning Obama the White House as his rousing oratory and grassroots organizing skills.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
It's all relative, Christopher. I'm at least willing to listen to and consider other viewpoints. The recently victorious Obamistas are displaying a particularly obnoxious self-righteousness which admits to no challenges.
Dave
27 - zingzing
dave, just last week you were refusing to talk to people if they were too left wing for you.
and i wouldn't use the term "obnoxious..." i'd say "snarky."
and, really, for the first time in about 10 years, we on the left have a major victory on our hands. forgive us if we're a little... happy. it's only been 3 days.
28 - Baronius
Dave, the number of evangelicals who oppose the separation of church and state is trivial. It's funny that we conservatives generally know enough to not believe the media's analysis, but we trust what they say about us (or our factions). But let's say that there's a sizable percentage of people who believe everything you do about economics, taxes, and foreign policy, and also want to install a President/Pope. You'd still be better served by forming a coalition with them on all matters but one. A minority party is ill-served by pushing people out of the tent.
Cindy, the polling is ambiguous about evangelical support of McCain/Palin. I see that you included Palin's name there, and I'm sure she did help him in turnout, although that help came late. Too late to contribute many funds or volunteer hours. Certainly, turnout among usual Republican voters was down. Previously-unregistered black evangelicals came out to vote for Obama, which helps to mask weakness in self-professed evangelical Republican turnout. It'll take a while to sort this data out.
29 - Zedd
Dave,
What do I believe in?
BTW are you alright? I know it's Friday. Did you get an early start on the sauce? Is it the election?
30 - Dave Nalle
Baronius, there seem to be two kinds of religious republicans, and I'm fine with working with the ones who are willing to work with others. But there's a significant element who will not work with anyone who does not conform to their beliefs. They are moral absolutists who are usually single issue voters and are unwilling to compromise on anything. There's just no way to work with them.
So I'm find with a coalition which involves religious conservatives, but not if they're inflexible fanatics. If I'm willing to compromise on gay marriage and accept civil unions as an alternative, I expect them to give up on banning gay marriage and settle for civil unions too. Same with abortion. I'll support limits on abortion even in the 2nd trimester, but if they can't accept at least some level of legal abortion, I've got no use for them.
For me things like abortion and gay marriage are just issues. For many religious people they are holy causes. I can't form a political alliance with people who put fanatically held religious beliefs ahead of all other issues.
Dave
31 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
1 - I NEVER complained about 'requiring ID'. I don't have a problem with that.
2 - 'Caging lists' are STRICTLY ILLEGAL.
The clause in the National Voting Rights Act of 1993 (NVRA) which prohibits purging caged voters off the voting rolls is:
Pursuant to the NVRA, a voter may not be removed from the voters list unless (1) the voter has requested removal; (2) state law requires removal by reason of criminal conviction or mental capacity; (3) the voter has confirmed in writing that he has moved outside the jurisdiction maintaining the specific voter list, or (4) the voter both (a) has failed to respond to a cancellation notice issued pursuant to the NVRA and (b) has not voted or appeared to vote in the two federal general elections following the date of notice.
And in addition to the plethora of caging by the RNC and allies are the voter registration fraud by Republican groups (but NOT by ACORN, because ACORN pointed out the suspect registrations) and the attempts to get Democratic voters to vote in different districts or on different days.
Dave, as was stated above, you may well be just playing "devil's advocate"...because you have NO ammunition here. The wrongdoing was almost completely by the RNC and allies thereof.
32 - Dave Nalle
Glenn, your own quote from the NVRA clearly supports caging lists as they have been used in recent elections. The lists used fulfill either requirement 2 or requirement 4 or both.
As for Republican voter registration fraud, I know of one conviction of one individual. That's it. This would be as compared to dozens of ACORN workers cut loose by their bosses to take the fall for them and convicted in multiple states.
You can try to rewrite history all you want - I suppose that's your right as one of the victors. But I'm going to stay here and stand up for the truth nonetheless.
Dave
33 - Lee Richards
# 30:
Dave, you've got to stop being so reasonable;you'll destroy your image.
"fanatically held religious beliefs" of some that are hard to compromise with--
1.) MY religious belief is better then YOUR secular opinion,
2.) It gives me insights superior to your non-religious ones, and therefore
3.) I think I have the right to decide moral and social issues for you.
34 - Baronius
Dave, I'm not asking you to form a coalition with Mike Huckabee, who favors big government and a religious social agenda. But it sounds like you've got a whole nose-cutting face-spiting thing happening. I could be misreading you though.
The fact is, pro-lifers volunteer for phone banks. They volunteer with a fervor that's, um, I can't think of a good word for it but I'm sure there is one. In politics, you don't usually get offers of enthusiastic support for 85% of your agenda. That's worth a little culture shock and exasperation.
35 - pablo
Poor Davey, I almost want to shed a tear for the hack...........not really :)
36 - Baronius
Dave, I just read the article about American socialism. I'm tellin' ya dude, if the country is thinking in these terms, we better start forming alliances with anyone remotely conservative.
I actually don't think the US is ideologically sliding into socialism, but in the current national mood, with next Congress and administration, the US could make a lot of mistakes before we get our heads together.
37 - bliffle
Baronius: Just because of a couple cross burnings...
"We're not kooks, but we're portrayed as kooks. We've got a lousy public image"
38 - Dave Nalle
I actually don't think the US is ideologically sliding into socialism, but in the current national mood, with next Congress and administration, the US could make a lot of mistakes before we get our heads together.
The irony is that we have so many negative examples of the failure of socialist systems around the world. You would think that we could pay attention to them and avoid those pitfalls. When France, of all places, lowered their overall tax burden so that were left alone with Japan at the top of the overtaxed list, that ought to have been an alarm bell to wake us up, but I'm afraid it's gone unnoticed by the left.
Dave
39 - handyguy
In the context of the entire library of Dave Nalle's articles, this one stands out for its low-key tone and relative reasonableness.
I think even he would have to admit that in the comments section, especially in the months leading up to the election, he was anything but low-key or reasonable, and tried to lend credence to nearly every anti-Obama angle coming from the McCain-Palin ticket - some of them remarkably slimy, unproven, irrelevant. It may take a while for the memory - and aroma - of those postings to fade.
But I genuinely believe that the paranoia and nervousness many on the right, including Dave, are promulgating about the 'radicals' in the Democratic Congress and what they will be doing to the Constitution in concert with President Obama, is utter fantasy.
I believe that for the most part the Dems will chart a centrist course, by necessity. Now, my "centrist" may indeed be Dave's "dangerous socialist." But I don't think so. I think if he keeps an open mind he'll be very pleasantly surprised in the months to come.
It is interesting that both the left and right accuse each other of betraying the Constitution.
The left points to the Bush-Cheney power grab for the executive branch, and many of the questionable policies adopted in the name of the so-called "War on Terror."
The right's fears seem to center on guns, taxes, and the minor sideshow called the Fairness Doctrine.
Prediction: Obama will do nothing - nothing - regarding gun policy, at least any time soon. And even if the Fairness Doctrine is made law [I think it's way down the priority list], the effects will be minimal to zero. [Otherwise it will be successfully challenged in court.]
And the most 'extreme' thing in his tax policy is to let the top rates return to their Clinton-era levels for high earners. As someone pointed out, is the line between a 34% and 39% top rate really the demarcation of capitalism and socialism? Jeez.
40 - Zedd
You guys are simply nuts. Is it your fantacy to fight against evil or some huge, bad guy, oh or maybe the dark side? What are you talking about? You are nuts. Let it go. It ain't all that. You all are really paranoid.
You still haven't stopped your talk radio addiction have you?
41 - Dave Nalle
I suggest that all readers view the video of the news report-as any fact checking editor should have done prior to publication-and decide whether or not Nalle legitimately draws his conclusion about the involvement of the Panther organization. Clearly, the behavior of an individual does not implicate the BPP.
I suggest that all viewers view that video too. And then I suggest that you read the detailed coverage from the Philadelphia Inquirer. And then read this article in which the head of the BPP in Philadelphia ackqnowledges that they were posted there.
And note the facts that MDE gets wrong in his comment. There were in fact TWO panthers there. One was armed and made to leave by the police. There is video and there are eyewitness accounts of all of this. And the BPP was in fact involved, aware and admits their involvement.
So if we had a fact checking editor he would have confirmed my information.
Do you have the honesty and integrity for an apology, MDE?
Dave
42 - Mark Eden
A bit of preemptive work here, Dave?
The fact still remains that your article as published with its source did not support your incendiary claim - pure propaganda.
By the way - the link above indicates that it took until Friday for the BPP to get its story straight. So - did the leadership send the guys?
I would be happy to apologize were I wrong.
Mark
43 - Mark Eden
For example - I'm sorry that I said one rather than two as turns out to be the case.
Mark
44 - zingzing
dave: "The irony is that we have so many negative examples of the failure of socialist systems around the world. You would think that we could pay attention to them and avoid those pitfalls. [...] but I'm afraid it's gone unnoticed by the left."
yes, because we're all screaming for SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! that's why we all live in america, which destroyed the largest socialistic economy in the world (at the time) less than 20 years ago! you know, we just decided, hey, we're gonna take this country over--we like a challenge. let's take on america! capitalism is now dead, in less than 20 years! we have done it! we are the destroyers of your way of life! while you were looking outward to the soviets and the iraq oil fields, we were working silently! and now it is our day!
you see how foolish this is dave?
45 - Dave Nalle
The fact still remains that your article as published with its source did not support your incendiary claim - pure propaganda.
My claim was only that there have been more problems in the polls in other states than in Texas, that's it. And the Black Panther example was just one of several I provided, from both sides of the political perspective.
And note that I wrote the reference within 24 hours of the incident before more details had come out.
By the way - the link above indicates that it took until Friday for the BPP to get its story straight. So - did the leadership send the guys?
By the amount of ass covering they're doing I'd guess yes.
I would be happy to apologize were I wrong.
Or if your ego could allow you to admit that you overreacted.
Dave
46 - Mark Eden
hogwash
Your claim was: "In Philadelphia the Black Panthers had members posted at the polls to keep Republican voters away."
You shouldn't take my criticism so personal-like. Imagine if you had done your due diligence and called 'em up for an early response. It would almost have been a scoop!
Mark
47 - Clavos
Isn't the article labeled OPINION?"
As are 90% of the submissions published here?
48 - Mark Eden
Hi Clavos. It is not OK to pass off bogus/unsubstantiated statements of fact in opinion pieces.
You, an editor, should know this.
Mark
49 - Clavos
Near as I can tell, Mark, the only error in Dave's original sentence is the presence of the letter "s" after "poll," which easily (for all you knew when you first read it) could have been as innocuous as a typo, since there were in fact, a couple of BP's at one of the polls (as reported by the MSM), his basic fact was not erroneous.
Mountain out of a molehill.
As to what I should or shouldn't know as an Assistant Editor: you may think you know what my responsibilities in that capacity are, but judging from your comment, you'd be wrong.
50 - Mark Eden
Clavos, there are any number of ways that Dave could have made that sentence true. He didn't. He chose to propagandize as he is wont to do.
And I'm not talking about your responsibilities in my comment above - just what you ought to know as a online magazine editor.
Mark
51 - Clavos
And I'm not talking about your responsibilities in my comment above - just what you ought to know as a online magazine editor.
Knowing what my responsibilities are would, of course, define my job, which in turn would define what I need to know to perform the job. For all you know, an assistant politics editor is only required to sweep the virtual office floors twice a day, and keep the virtual coffee machine full.
Again, I saw no evidence in this instance of "passing off bogus/unsubstantiated statements of fact in opinion pieces," except in the very unimportant point of plural versus singular polls.
And, once more: It's not a news article, it's an opinion article.
52 - Mark Eden
Whatever. I can see that we are going to get along famously!
Oh - and if you guys feel that you have a conflict of interest editing my opinion piece on this topic when you get to it, maybe you should pass it on to someone else.
Mark
(In the interest of disclosure: I've sent troll off seeking more anarchic venues for communicating the ineffable. I intend to hang around here avoiding the comments section as much as I can and writing some articles.)
53 - Clavos
I intend to hang around here avoiding the comments section as much as I can and writing some articles.
Wonderful! Always good to have new perspectives.
Be sure your your facts are accurate. :)
54 - Mark Eden
You betcha! And when I do make a mistake - which I am sure I will now and again - I'll happily admit it.
55 - Clavos
Good for you, Champ.
56 - Mark Eden
'Champ'?
57 - Mark Eden
And in keeping with my promise to admit error:
I am told by Lisa M that BC is not committed to honest journalism (though not in those words exactly) and, essentially, that propagandizing and embedding bogus statements of fact in opinion pieces here in the politics section is fine.
Go figure. Needless to say, my article suggesting ways that BC could behave more like a legitimate member of the fourth estate will not be appearing.
Mark
58 - Lisa McKay
Damn right not in those words exactly, Mark, but by all means feel free to distort the essence of my email.
59 - Mark Eden
Sorry Lisa - I didn't want to quote you exactly.
What would you say the essence of you e-mail was? How am I to interpret, "...Nowhere have we claimed to have a "journalistic focus", as you put it, nor do we consider ourselves to be a source of unbiased news reporting." & "We don't require our writers -- who are primarily bloggers, not professional journalists -- to be fair and balanced when they are writing opinion pieces. We do require them to do their homework and back up statements of fact with links to sources. How they choose to interpret those facts is up to them."
I truly have been suffering under a misconception of BC's mission and where management wants to take it.
Mark
60 - Mark Eden
I have dug up a news story about a woman who beat up her husband. My storyline will be: Amazons Run Amok Across the Country
There has to be some good satire in all of this.
Mark
61 - Christopher Rose
Mark, I don't understand your problem. It doesn't require a great deal of time to be spent at Blogcritics without readily perceiving it to be exactly what it is.
It doesn't have a staff in the normal sense of the word and you seem to be speaking from an old school newspaper perspective rather than understanding what Blogcritics is doing.
Bring back troll.
62 - Lisa McKay
Mark, if you have mistaken BC for a primary news source, then you have indeed been suffering under a misconception. We have never presented ourselves as such. Our politics writers write opinion pieces, many of which are exceptionally well-researched, nearly all of which are written from a particular point of view (or bias, if you prefer). We have a very active community of commenters who don't hesitate to call bullshit when they disagree with something. This is the blogosphere, not the New York Times -- what part of that don't you understand?
63 - Christopher Rose
Additionally, why would I want to be part of the largely corrupt fourth estate when I'm already part of the fifth? Wake up!
64 - Mark Eden
Sorry Chris, troll was based on rude personal attacks. I only gave up the bridge routine way back when in the name of comity (based on an argument that I had with Alienboy) -- which was a mistake. As troll I have to do far too much self-editing. Besides, I'm tired of trying to write without commas.
Lisa, your right. There is lots of good stuff here. And lots of bullshit propaganda.
65 - irene wagner
I shall miss troll.
I can understand his wanting to write articles after limiting himself to aphorisms for so long.
66 - Mark Eden
irene, if I find a venue for troll where he can cut loose I'll let you know.
Mark
67 - irene wagner
Succinctly: but how?
68 - irene wagner
People can always cut loose wherever they please if they don't care about the consequences.
69 - Clavos
mark/troll,
much as i hate to admit it you fooled me
70 - irene wagner
Yes, clavos once said troll = bambeneck.
71 - Clavos
When did I say that, Irene? I don't recall saying it.
72 - irene wagner
I guess we could do an advanced google search on the comments. The reason your comment sticks in my mind was thereafter, I always thought troll was bambeneck, too, because I figured you knew both of them better than I did.
73 - irene wagner
Lawd have mercy. I have gotten this thread WAAAY off track.
Yes, I was in Texas on election day once, too. It was Austin 2000. Later that week, I saw a pickup with "Hang THIS chad" spray painted on the rear view windown.
74 - Clavos
I must have been facetious or sarcastic--I've never actually thought they were one and the same.
75 - Mark Eden
(I cannot believe that I wrote 'your' rather than 'you're' in #64. Mental Mush)
irene - watch the sky for a sign.
And for some bizarre reason I do care about the consequences of cutting loose on several of the fragile egos around here despite the fact that they are the ones most deserving.
Mark