The war against abstinence education wages on across the country. The comprehensive sex ed crowd was apoplectic with the results of a Mathematica study that showed kids who had abstinence education programs were just as likely to engage in sexual activity with the same rates of "dangerous" behavior. The flip side of the study showed that abstinence education also "did no harm" in that the "risky" behaviors were just as frequent between both groups, but that got ignored. Predictably, the studies that show abstinence ed works also got ignored.
The study itself has recycled some of the same claims that come up every time someone objects to abstinence education. Representative Waxman did a study in 2004 that purported to show all the damage abstinence education does, but between outright stupid objections and showing that some programs do work, his attempt failed.
The push for comprehensive education is nothing more than an attempt to ram values down parents' throats. The United States is a values pluralistic society that works precisely because other people's values are respected and tolerated. Except in the narrow case of values that are criminal or quasi-criminal, the government shouldn't start dictating to citizens what values they must have, religious or otherwise. In short, if government education programs are going to deal with sex (and it's not clear that this is a necessary area for government to be involved in) they need to do so in a values neutral manner.
A reasonable position would be to allow comprehensive sex ed, abstinence ed, or no sex ed at all to be choices available at the sole discretion of the parents. Parents, as a rule, know their children the best and are best able to make the most informed decisions about them. However, far too often the government turns the school system into a parole office for which parents must issue an accounting of their decisions after committing the crime of conception.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - zingzing
so... if kids are going to have sex either way... don't you think it smart that they know what a condom is, how to use it, etc? that they know that, should they decide to have sex, a condom can protect them from some things called stds?
knowing the dangers of sex is just as compelling as having your health teacher say "don't have sex!" you say as much yourself. sex is a dangerous game and your children have the right to know that.
look at all the misinformation and levels of ignorance about the dangers of sex that you see in places like africa. aids is out of control. yes, abstinence will protect you from aids (sexually-transmitted aids anyway)... but if the kids are going to do it anyway, as you say...
a friend of mine is in china right now studying the levels of sex education there. there isn't any to speak of. it's a fairly traditional society, but is growing and changing rapidly. the rumor is that sunbathing can cure aids. what shit. you know what? stds and aids are on the rise there.
education is the key to stopping the spread of stds. by the time your kids get to the age that they should be getting some sex ed, which is just before most kids get to be sexually active, your role as parent has been reduced from instilling values to telling them what not to do. and of course, they're just going to do what you tell them not to. stop fucking up your kids.
2 - John Bambenek
The study referenced shows that there is NO CHANGE in the rate of "risky" sexual behavior (no condoms, many partners, etc), between comprehensive sex ed and abstinence ed. Try again.
3 - Clavos
Parents should ALWAYS trump the government as to what is taught their kids and what values are instilled in them.
This issue is yet another example of the increasing trend toward having a "nanny" government.
The next thing you know, the government will be forcing us to wear seatbelts in our cars...
4 - John Bambenek
It's not a black and white issue... there are plenty of acceptable sets of values when it comes to sex. Comprehensive sex ed advocates want to present only one. Abstinence only advocates want to present only one. I'd prefer that choice be left to the parents who actually know the child.
Parents decision SHOULD trump government usually. I'd prefer not to treat parents as if they are under an irrefutable presumption of guilt simply because they conceived a child.
5 - zingzing
hrm. teaching kids about safe sex doesn't tell them to go and have sex. teaching kids not to go and have sex does just that. now kids shouldn't be having sex. that's true. but kids are going to have sex. and when kids have sex, they should know what they are getting into.
simple as that.
and no, clavos, parents can't always be trusted to tell the kids about sex. especially the religious ones. come on, it's true. it's not about government control, it's about doing what's right.
6 - Arch Conservative
"it's not about government control, it's about doing what's right."
If government is to be the sole judge of what's right then it is about government control.
7 - Dave Nalle
Did this study offer the parents the option of sex education which stressed abstinence but included basic information on contraception and STDs?
The problem here is that neither of these two approaches is sufficient by itself, and just asking parents isn't enough either. We ought to be asking the kids - it's their problem.
Parents are going to tend to think their kids are perfect and virginal and will just not have sex if told so by an authority figure. Why would anyone poll a group that delusional and take it seriously?
And keep in mind that I'm saying this as a former PTA VP, member of the curriculum committee at a middle school and the father of a teenager. Parents as a whole are a pack of clueless dumbasses when it comes to their kids.
Dave
8 - Clavos
and no, clavos, parents can't always be trusted to tell the kids about sex. especially the religious ones. come on, it's true. it's not about government control, it's about doing what's right.
True. But people can't always be trusted to do what is "right" in a lot of areas, not just parenting; often because we don't always agree as to what is "right."
In a dictatorship or tyrannical society, this doesn't matter; somebody determines what's "right" and everybody else must toe the line.
We give lip service, at least, to being a free country. We aren't really, and this is one example of where we are not free.
People should be free to be make mistakes, too.
9 - Dave Nalle
parents can't always be trusted to tell the kids about sex
When I think about parents and sex ed I'm thinking about 40% of their home lifes resemble Carrie and her mom talking about 'dirty pillows'.
Dave
10 - STM
I think we should cave in to the Christian Right, Catholic and Evangelical, and go down the total abstinence route. Make them all sleep with gloves on and then ban kids from having ANY sex at all until they're 21 or of legal drinking age, whichever comes first. Special parent squads should also be set up to hunt down teenage boys' porn stashes.
This worked well for us in the early '70s. Pot was also banned in that period, and of course, I can't recall anyone ever smoking it ....
11 - Clavos
This worked well for us in the early '70s. Pot was also banned in that period, and of course, I can't recall anyone ever smoking it ....
...or anything else about then, either. Right?
12 - STM
Exactamundo ... I can tell you that it's possible to do almost anything in a Fiat 500 Bambino ... provided it's got a sunroof.
13 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"so... if kids are going to have sex either way"
Let's stop right there, zing. When you make that assumption, you have given up the game. The job of a parent is to get his kids to make intelligent choices, not popular ones, and to protect them if they can from the stupidity they are most familiar with - their own. That means that parents have to invest real time in educating their kids in sexual responsibility, and what constitutes sexual responsibility. And responsible sexual behavior is all about judgment.
NO school can be relied on as a substitute for that kind of education in judgment.
Do note John's link that shows that smart kids don't fuck around. Someone took the time to teach these kids to use their judgment and to think.
Smart parents like this are generally not intimidated by the bullshit bureaucrats who hustle the crap they were taught as "educators." This means that they are willing, among other things to fight the bullshit bureaucrats who infest the school systems all over the world like cockroaches and make sure that their own children learn their values. Sometimes, you have to be a son of a bitch to accomplish that, but when you sign up to be mom or dad, that also comes with the territory.
This means that tough and smart parents are not intimidated by the ACLU and other assholes in American society who seem to need to ram their values down parents' throat.
14 - David Dawson
This debate is not about preventing kids from having sex. It's about CRAMMING christian-morality down people's throat. These fundamentalist christians believe pre-marital sex is a sin, and they want to STOP people from doing it. IF they COULD they'd flat-out ban it, and lock people up for it!! Do you realize how dangerous these people are? They have no problem imposing their personal morality on everyone else in the world. These people lie at the heart of the problem with the USA, the war in Iraq, and the overall worldview of the nation. These people are THE REASON WHY the rest of the world is starting to get SICK of the USA. Do they care? Absolutely NOT! If they're allowed to keep it up, however, the USA will soon go the way of Rome. Think it can't happen? That's what Rome thought.
15 - John Bambenek
David-
Your hateful diatribe aside, you'll note that no where I advocate for demanding abstinence only across the baord. I advocate for letting parents decide. You want to raise you kids the way you see fit? Fine (with the obvious child abuse exceptions). Christians want to raise their kids the way they see fit? That's fine too. I'd just prefer you not ram your values into my kid's pants.
Thanks.
16 - Clavos
@#13:
Well said, Ruvy.
17 - Zedd
Clavos
Parents should ALWAYS trump the government as to what is taught their kids and what values are instilled in them.
You are right, however it is in these parents homes that these children watch shows and listen to music that makes them even more curious about sex. Its these parents who don't monitor what their children are going to the movies to watch.
Its these same parents who don't have an open relationship with their kids where they can talk about sex and even dating with them.
My kids friends who are teetering on sexuality and will be soon, don't talk to their parents AT ALL or even about who they have a crush on. They however watch all sorts of movies and TV shows, unsupervised. The same parents will tell you, "you cant always watch your kids" and buy those ridiculous hip hop CDs with the worst lyrics.
The horrible values don't come from society. They come from the homes... meaning the parents.
What do we do as a society then?
18 - Zedd
I know of a parent with a 12yr old girl who has a boyfriend who is at their house constantly. They go on trips with this boyfriend and he has super with them. He is like a son-in-law. What is that?
I know another 11yr old who is taken to the movies and dropped off with her boyfriend for a date where they kiss and act like real boyfriend and girlfriend with the mom's permission.
Lets stop acting as if parents are these sacred KNOWING individuals. What each parent does to their children, they do to society. Finding the balance is the key.
19 - John Bambenek
The proper balance, I presume, won't be an irrefutable presumption of guilt against parents...
20 - Clavos
What do we do as a society then?
That, Zedd is the proverbial $64,000 question. I don't know.
You're right, there are a LOT of irresponsible parents out there. Maybe the children of those parents DO need to be taught values in school, but the parents who ARE teaching their kids must have the right to opt out of those kinds of programs if they want to.
That's one of the reasons why I support school vouchers: parents should have control AND choices.
21 - Zedd
Clavos
The next thing you know, the government will be forcing us to wear seat belts in our cars...
I cant figure out why people still complain about this. We are saving more on insurance because of less fatalities and injuries. We are saving our kids lives. If you can allow a home owner's association to dictate to you what color to paint your house surely strapping your kids in if you want to drive a car shouldn't be a problem.
22 - Clavos
Zedd,
I will live under a highway bridge, as the courts here in Miami are currently forcing a half dozen sex offenders to do, before I would live in a neighborhood with that kind of a homeowners association.
I haven't seen my insurance go down; with a spotless record and no kids on my policy, my insurance still goes up every year; what savings?
I wore seat belts before they were the law, but the government has no business intruding in people's lives to that degree.
As I said upthread, people have a right to make mistakes.
23 - Zedd
Clavos
As a person who started off in a strict school system that required learning, I was first all for vouchers. I saw the fluff in the schools as I was growing up and thought it was just laughable. As I perform my stint in non profit I have come to understand just how irresponsible the most well intended "programs" including charter schools are. Unless you are talking about the top of the line prep schools, a lot of private schools are behind. Actually studies support that. I truly value public schools now. Especially since they have become much more academic than when I was growing up.
The liberal environment that we envision does not exist, at least in Texas. There are fantasies about a kumbaya atmosphere in schools that just isn't there. School is strict NOW with cause and affect embedded in every aspect of education.
It is however the parents, liberal or conservative (I live in conservative heaven), who don't support the serious expectations for their children. Parents drive their daughters up to the school in pajamas and house shoes because that is the latest trend with girls. Kids jump out of their Mom's car with sagging pants and the teacher at the door has to tell them to pull their pants up.
My kids attend the most desirable schools in the district and we still have this foolishness.
24 - Zedd
Clavos
I would agree with you a hundred percent. You say this because YOU are a responsible person. There are some crazy people out there raising kids. I have come to KNOW that they are not necessarily the trailer park/projects stereo types either.
I lived in an downtown "cool" urban environment for years. I loved it. We walked to restaurants and did Shakespeare in the park and Jazz concerts, etc. We had bohemian types, professionals, gay, straight, conservative, etc. On my street there was a gay Podiatrist, retired Jewish woman with 50yr old son, Protestant insurance exec with Jewish stay at home wife who invited us to share in Hanukkah and sing the dradle song, we had 3 attorneys, several young professional couples, Pilot, Indian IT guys... anyway it was nice and we were AAs and added that flavor. My kids were the only kiddos past 2yrs old in the neighborhood so they were doted on by everyone. Halloween was a smogasborg for them because the entire neighborhood was just waiting for them to knock. But after my husband died and my kids got older, the children needed the simplicity of suburban life. And the urban schools got scarier with every passing grade so I RAN to the suburbs!
I am shocked everyday just how irresponsible and messed up the idealised suburban moms are. OMG part of it is just denseness but man talk about dysfunction. I suppose the drunk sorority loose girl married too. Well they are in the suburbs and trying to be moms. OMG!!! The advise that they yell out to their kids is just weird. Bobby could have his "bad figure" stuck out at someone and they'll yell "didn't I tell you not to put those shoe laces on?".... huh?. We had a mom to give the cheer coach immense hell because her 13yr old was upset because the cheer skirt wasn't short enough. She actually pulled her kid out of the squad... go figure! We have DADs who drop their daughters off to practice with their hiney cheeks hanging out of their hiked up shorts. These individuals are conservatives who attended Wednesday night bible study.... sigh.
Its all so weird. I really understand why kids are on so much medication. Their worlds don't make sense. The parents are crazy and don't think about what they do and why to do it.
So I agree with you. There must be a balance.
25 - John Bambenek
No one is arguing that all parents out there are wonderful... but treating all parents as members of a suspect class is a little much.