A left coast politician is heaping San Francisco values on Michael Savage, but who's the real villain?
Patriotism might at one time have been the last refuge of a scoundrel, but methinks this is no longer true. With modern America being characterized more by political correctness than patriotism, screams of “racism” may now be that last refuge. And joining the ranks of scoundrels, populated by reverends sans congregations and other assorted guttersnipes, is one Gerardo Sandoval, San Francisco Supervisor.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - STM
And wouldn't you be wary of the ACLU taking up anyone's case, particularly with its very left-leaning track record in regard to some issues that most people would find highly offensive???
Aren't they the masters of political correctness gone mad, just like their counterparts in this country?
77 - STM
No probs mate. You are probably right in regard to the courts not (ultimately) convicting him of anything, and in truth, I'm not sure that he even should get anything more than a smack over the wrist, as shock jocks are wont to do this stuff (here too).
All I'm trying to point out in this case is that the law has made a ruling (however narrow) on such issues, and that the right to say whatever you like under the 1st amendment is not absolute and can, theorertically, run the risk of a prosecution that can't be argued away on the basis of constitutional rights.
I'm not saying any more than that, nor making any judgments in relation to it.
78 - STM
And thanks for at least being reasonable in your argument with me, which hasn't been the case with some commentators.
79 - Jason Stanley
Savage is a brilliant man. These leftist liberals will swing from an end of a rope one day. That day will come when the rest of America wakes up and the sleeping giant is beging to wake up more as each leftist demoncrat opens there mouths.
80 - fleshyglassbits
STM - My take is that fighting words are walking up to someone and directly threatening them with battery or assault, or in the case of public speech, directly inciting people to do violence or personal harm on another group or individual. The thing about our constitution is it is interpretive, so we shall see. I think if anything, it is Sandoval and the city of S.F. who may be in trouble here, since there are hundreds of idots outside of Savage's place of employment spewing real "fighting words" towards his person.
81 - fleshyglassbits
STM - Good point about the ACLU. It just goes to show that the extreme right is the new extreme left!!!!!
82 - Mike
Wow STM, big supprise that a supreme court in the US rulled against something clearly stated in the constitution. Considering that they constatnly rule that things that are not in the constituion really are (abortion, privacy). Yes, you have the right to say whatever you want, but you also have to accept the consiquences of your statements. However, the constituion is clear that no law shall be enacted prohibing the speach. So the RDDB in SF can protest all they want against his comments, and the supervisor can distoret MS comments all he wants to sway public opinion in his favor, but he crosses a line when he tries to use government and law to silence MS.
83 - Tesla
Stm,
I did investigate the case, mate, and again, it doesn't apply to what the leftist SCUM call hate speech. Also, since you missed it the first time, I and many others DO NOT recognize as legitimate unconstitutional court rulings. As the book Men in Black illustrates, the court doesn't have a history of consistency but of contradicting itself. We're governed by a constitution and elected representatives, not, as Savage would say, by tyrants in greasy black robes. Judges that divine a right to abortion, a right to spread pornography and a prohibition against hiring and firing who you want from the constitution, should be swinging from a rope. I just hope and pray I live to see the day when they do.
No wonder you worked for the government. You're a great cog.
84 - STM
But Mike, having said all that, the key to all this might be in the 9th amendment: broadly, when it comes to rights, the constitution as it is written should not be taken to be the whole law of the United States. Everyone forgets about that bit, and its importance can't be understated, for in truth, IMO, it might be the glue that holds much of the rest of the common law of the United States in place.
It exists as a very clear instruction on how the constituion should (or more to the point, should not) be interpreted. That to me seems to be the beauty of the constitution: while laying down certain rights that can't be taken away, it's also a living, breathing document that has a built-in capacity to evolve. The 9th amendment could work both ways, too. A person could argue, theoretically, that under the 9th amendment, the right not to be vilified through, for instance, fighting words that have already been adjudged as not protected, could thus now be construed as one of those rights spoken about in the 9th amendment.
Conversely, a person could also argue that the US government has no business interfering in a person's right to privacy. And so it goes on.
My point in all this is that the US is founded on rule of law, and law by its very nature gives us a changing and fluid society and the law indeed should reflect the changes in that society.
Madison's thinking seems to have been a nod to "natural rights", and all the rights previously given in America's common law past (ie, through the laws of England) and also those that may come in the future. The evidence here on the rightness of his view might be that the other countries which draw on English law have almost identical rights to those of the US and have evolved along a similar time scale to the US, but most of these rights are simply taken to exist and aren't enunciated in written constititions but rely instead for their veracity on judgments and rulings at law (which is how I came to be looking at the Constitution in the first place, as a beliver in the "Anglosphere", and why I'm so interested in it).
As for Savage, Sandoval, et al ... truth is, I really don't give a rat's arse about either of them. I don't live there, and the way things are in America right now, I'm really glad I don't. It's bad enough here at the moment.
All I was trying to point out was that absolute protection of free speech doesn't exist under the law of the US and that there is a huge amount of misunderstanding in relation to it.
85 - STM
BTW, is there some kind of extreme-right early-warning system - perhaps involving the horn of a pick-up truck and neon flashing lights - that goes off all over small-town America, and says: "Warning. Suspected liberal writing shit on blogcritics, lock and load yer dictionaries and give it to him fair up the clacker"?
Just a thought, in terms of the woodwork opening up.
86 - STM
Hey, Rosey, old boy ... why is it OK for me to be insulted, but if I insult someone else, you take the comment off?? What is this, Pom-style democracy?
As insults go, calling someone mad as a cut snake is pretty minor.
87 - Christopher Rose
It's a question of degree, Stan. Being called a cog is way short of your response. One has to draw the line somewhere, as I'm sure you appreciate when your dander is down!
88 - STM
Besides, according to most of these good folks, I have the constitutional right, right?, to say what I like, whether I'm hurting their feelings or not :)
89 - Christopher Rose
Yeah, but they're wrong and I'm right! lol
90 - STM
How is mad as a cut snake a shocking insult?? ... it's as common as kangaroo shit here.
91 - STM
BTW, I believe the good Tesla was suggesting I was a cheat and a swindler, rather than a minor functionary of government (in which case he would been half right :)
92 - Christopher Rose
The only beliefs that matter are mine. Mine, I tell you! Mwuahahahahahaha. *Makes that weird Dr Evil gesture where he puts his finger to his mouth*
93 - daryl d
Sometimes I miss California-because of the weather-but other times, I am glad to be out of there. It is a state that is ran by the "La Raza" people who hate America, hate our culture, and think that the USA actually "stole" land from Mexico.
Unless we, as a nation, stand up to the "La Raza" people who are bigots, we are doomed as a nation.
I'm not a fan of Michael Savage-he is a self hating Jew. But I will defend him on this one.
94 - STM
The only answer to this incessant navel gazing and rampant liberalism in the US is for America and the other English-speaking nations to stand up and join more cohesively - to once and for all bring about the Anglosphere (which has nothing to do with race, BTW, and everything to do with respect for rule of law) ... and more power to it.
But the big question is: who gets to run it, and would the US finally end up with a Union Jack in the corner of its flag???
95 - Clavos
"think that the USA actually "stole" land from Mexico."
So how DID we acquire California and the Southwest then???
96 - STM
Yeah, that's a no brainer isn't it. Remember the Alamo??
97 - Ray Ellis
I had no idea that Schwarzenegger is Hispanic, much less a member of La Raza. Thanks for cluing us in, daryl.
98 - kelli SAVAGETTE FOR LIFE
hay liberals... "KEEP WORKING HARD, MILLIONS OF ILLEGALS ARE DEPENDING ON US!" damn, i wish i could get free healthcare, free food and housing, not have to pay for spiting out babies left and right, not need to learn the language of the country i broke into, murder, steal, and yet STILL NOT GET DEPORTED! i dont think if the shoe was on the other foot mexican's would like having all these non-spanish speaking people breaking in and spiting out babies every chance they could, getting free f**kin food, housing and wraping the American flag around us and walk around mexico laughing in their faces cuz we know that we are staying! If all the taxpayers moved out of california and went somewhere else that didnt support illegals with tax money, who the hell would pay for all these illegals to stay? i know nancy pelosi, barbara boxer, dianne feinstein, the governor etc wouldnt. they dont give a shit about the hard working Americans. HAY LIBERALS...... IM LEGAL!!!!!! HA HA HA U SICK SON OF A BITCHES
99 - Ray Ellis
Kelli--I see the American education system has failed you. Why don't you just say you're a proud bigot, and get it out of your system?
100 - Clavos
C'mon Ray.
You can't blame that level of abysmal ignorance and racism on the educational system!
101 - Ray Ellis
You're right, Clavos. Must be my liberal tendencies, I guess.
102 - kelli SAVAGETTE FOR LIFE
well considering my husband is mexican American, LEGAL THAT IS, AND SPEAKS ENGLISH so i cant really use the work bigot now can i [Personal attack deleted]??? ha ha. did i piss you off with all those facts? the truth hurts doesnt it! [Personal attack deleted] write me back when you become a victim of identity theft from an illegal, or someone you know has their car stolen from some illegals, or better yet, when a friends 9yr old niece gets run over by a car and dies and the car was driven by an illegal, let me know if you still love the illegals okay!!!! [Personal attack deleted]
103 - Ray Ellis
Okay, your husband is Latino and speaks English. Do you speak Spanish?--or Russian?--or Arabic?--or Hungarian? Or all illegal aliens automatically Mexican?
And are all people who call you on outright racism automatically left-wing? No, you didn't piss me off, but I apparently raised your blood pressure a bit.
Evidently, you know a lot more illegals than the average American. Either that, or you assume all the evils that befall us are the result of som vast illegal alien conspiracy. I'm guessing the latter. From where I stand, referring to you as a bigot is charitable.
By the way, we've all had tragedies in our lives. In my case, most of them have been the result of good ol' boys with too much machismo from a bottle.If I adapt your logic, I'd have more hate on my plate than I can handle.
Welcome to reality, baby--or savagette, whatever the hell that is.
104 - kelli SAVAGETTE FOR LIFE
well mr. know-it-all, in my neighborhood that's all their is is illegal mexicans. i already know that illegals are not only mexican. if you took a walk through my neighborhood just one time you would see how ugly it is. i dont wish anything bad on you, but i wish you would get a reality check so you could see what innocent, hard working Americans are trying to put up with these days. soon i wont be in california anymore to be around it, but i shouldnt have to move? i was born and raised here in oakland. i know moving somewhere else wont stop the problem, but im sick of the 3rd world feeling when im in America. obviously it's not a problem in your neighborhood. what if your father had his own construction business that he started 25 yrs ago, and slowly started losing business over the yrs and really started struggling to support his family due to illegal's stealing those jobs? it's not fair. that's where im coming from. i am far from being a bigot, not even close. i just dont think this is fair.
105 - Ray Ellis
Good to know you've taken it upon yourself to check everybody's papers.
I'm from Texas, and I live in a minority majority city, so I think I'm aware of the "Problems" of which you speak. I just don't see them as problems on a daily basis.
Blaming immigrants for our problems has been a pastime since America was founded, once we had decimated the Native population to the point we could no longer blame them. First Americans blamed the Irish, then the Germans, then the Jews, then the Italians, and on and on, till we all carved out our own niches.
It's only natural, given American history, that Hispanics would be the Next Big Threat.
106 - Egbert Sousé
"in my neighborhood that's all their is is illegal mexicans."
if that's "all their is" then that makes kelli an illegal mexican? self-hating it sounds like.
"if you took a walk through my neighborhood just one time you would see how ugly it is."
we don't need to walk through the neighborhood. we can just stop at your place.
107 - Egbert Sousé
So let me get this straight, if you become a victim of identity theft from an American citizen, or when a friends 9yr old niece gets run over by a car and dies and the car was driven by an American citizen, do you stop loving American citizens?
108 - fleshyglassbits
I understand perfectly what Kelli is saying. She May be coming from a place of emotion but this is understandable. You would think that you "enlightened" socialists would understand this since you tend to "think" with only your emotions. Please all "compassionate", "enlightened" socialist who called Kelli a bigot, read this all the way through!!! According to the Center for Immigration Reform, Treating uninsured illegal alens costs about $2.2 billion a year. Hospitals are going broke in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California because they are forced to subsidize Mexico's poorest people, hospitals must absorb the costs providing federally mandated emergency room services to illegal aliens. Here is a list for you illegal loving socialist to suck on. $2.1 billion to lock up illegal criminals in prisons, $2.5 billion in Medicaid, $2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs, $1.4 billion in federal aid to schools, $1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC and free school lunches. All taken without permission from our pay checks. They get driver's licenses, medicare, school lunches, college grants and we get to foot the bill while you enlightened socialist pick our pockets. How can I blame these poor people for coming here to earn ten bucks/hr uner the table, when the most they can make in Mexico is 60 cents a day? Mexico is not our problem, America is being bled dry. Many schools in states with huge illegal populations are being destroyed, hospitals are bankrupt and are closing, and the legal bills in many communities debour tax dollars earmarked for capital improvements. In some of these border hospitals, the illegals crowd us out , demanding Spanish interpreters and free medical care even as the AMerican citizens who actually foot the bill are denied. Mexican ambulances routinely bring uninsured Mexican patients across the border to U.S. hospitals. Mexican ambulance companies are instructed by hospital officials in Mexico to take ailing and uninsured patients to the United States. All of this costs U.S. hostpitals in the neighborhood of $200 million a year and more. Those hospitals that can, pay the tab,and so many others can't and therefore are closing their doors. In 2000 San DIego's Scripps Memorial Hospital was forced to close because it was losing $5 million a year, mostly due to having to provide care to illegal aliens that was not reimbursed. Border area hospitals report that they are short of physicians and surgeons because they left for positions where their salaries wont be tied to a mass of illeal aliens who skip out on their bills. Did you know that as of 1996, god knows what it is now, it cost about 8 billion a year to provide a primary education for illegal aliens at the federal, state and local levels. Who pays for this? Even though we do not have adequate resources to take care of our legal citizen's and their education challenges. No, Kelli, dont let these "enlightened" socialists on this blog intimidate you or cause you to become defensive. WHen they call you a bigot, they are relying on their politically correct arsenal to disparage anything justifiable grievances or injustices you may be experiencing. It is one of the oldest and effective marxist tricks in the book. I lived in Lost Angeles for nearly 20 years. I witnessed that city transform from a comparative Utopia, into what is quickly approaching a Mexico City, one of the worst sewers in the world. If you want to know what your wife will look like when she gets old, look at her mother. Unfortunately the democrats and the neoconservatives (BUsh and his cronies) are selling us down the tubes for the interests of multinational corporations who are essentially monopolies. They are all socialists. SOcialism and communism are the same. A small group of elitists with their buttlickers on the top, and the rest living in a dirty filthy pond. Cheers keep on loving your little aliens, and keep on with your thought and word policing....and remember there is only so much room out of the dirty pond, and there is no guarantee that you will be saved a place.
109 - tissue
First of all, I respect what Michael Savage stands for ( our country and our freedom of speech) and believe he will come out a victor in this recent attack against him.
It is crystal clear to me that he said nothing racist in the remark he made about those hunger strikers. Secondly, I have a suggestion to the solution of the illegal immigration problem in the United States. It may not work, but nevertheless it could make an impact, here it goes: Upon students'(any age) enrolling in a public educational school system, you must show prove of legal status, i.e., parents of those underage must show proof of their child's and their own legal status. If they don't have it, you deport them. That might stop illegals from coming here. Remember that is their second free ride. The first was in the U.S. hospital where they were born from their illegal parent, remember they received that for free (at the tax payers expense). I would not ask for their legal status there because how can you stop an illegal mother from having her child. Once they know that a school will not accept them, and they will be deported, that might stop them. If our government can't control the borders, and greedy employers won't stop hiring illegals, then our government should enforce a law in the educational system. I think most people would think twice about coming here illegally if this were made into law.
110 - Dr Dreadful
Chris:
Sorry if I seem to keep obsessing on this, but is the "fleshyglassbits" of comment #108 posting from the same IP address (yes, yes, I nailed the terminology this time) as the person who has been commenting under that name upthread?
It's just that the command of English, writing style, opinions and grasp on reality appear to be rather different.
111 - fleshyglassbits
Yep, one and the same Dr. Dreadful. I was only having a friendly debate with stm in the above threads concerning the constitution and free speech. I acknowledged that stm was correct when he stated that not all speech is protected, however I pointed out that his Chaplinsky vs Hampshire "Fighting words" clause did not hold up when the ACLU successfully defeated Abe Yellin and the town of SKokie and the subsequent attempt to ban a nazi group from demonstrating in their town with swastikas. However, I am an independent conservative who is deeply offended by illegal immigration, and what may be confusing you is how could I actually be civil with someone with an opposing viewpoint. In other words, perhaps someone with my opinion about illegal immigration could not possibly be as intelligent as a left wing extremist? Is that it? enlighten me.....I would be happy to aid you in ending your "obsession". If you would be so kind as to re read my above posts with stm, you will see that I did not stray from my views... I believe, Dr. Dreadful, that what you detected was a tone of anger towards the people who were attacking a woman named Kelli, concerning her views on illegal immgration and how it had adversely affected her life.... much as it has for me. So much so that I finally decided to leave my beloved Los Angeles because it is a shit hole now. WHen the far right is in need of protection from the ACLU, that should tell you that we have come full circle since the inception of the civil rights revolution of the 1960's. I despise the Democrats and the Neoconservative Republicans, they are ruining this country, and that is my informed, liberally educated opinion. If I did not express myself eloquently enough, do forgive me, I did not realize I would be scrutinized by a literary critic.
112 - daryl d
"So how DID we acquire California and the Southwest then???"
It's not as simple as saying we stole it. Go visit the Alamo in San Antonio. There is a list of all the people who bravely fought for their rights. You will see that there were A LOT of Mexicans who fought with the Americans. They didn't want to be part of a corrupt government that still ruins Mexico today. They wanted their independece from Mexico. It wasn't simply whitey killing the minority, though the liberal socialists that have taken over our public school systems will tell you that.
I have some liberal tendancies myself. However, there is a line to be drawn when distinguishing legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. This isn't about humanity, this is about CRIME! I've worked in the public school system in Southern California and know, by direct experience, that many of these illegal aliens and their families hate us in a very ugly way.
113 - fleshyglassbits
Dr. Dreadful,
I just scanned through some of your threads, and I just realized that you are some kind of moderator, and you were trying to determine if I was a spammer or something. My bag. I noticed you referred to us as "You Americans" and I couldn't help but get the impression that the subject of this entire debate is rather frivolous in your eyes. Just out of curiosity where are you from??
114 - fleshyglassbits
daryl d,
I too believe that it is vital to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. It is the far left, the neoconservatives and the illegals themselves who are blurring the lines. THis is not a racial issue. If I saw our country invaded by 20-30 million Western Europeans I would be just as pissed.
115 - Christopher Rose
Doc D, yes, you are obsessing, yes it is all one person and yes, I will always let people know if there is any identity spamming going on. Read in peace.
fleshyglassbits, firstly, congrats on having the wildest name I've seen this week; what's it mean? Moving on, the Doc isn't a moderator but I am; he is a Brit like me, except he now has to suffer living in the land of the not-so-free-as-they-think-are, unlike me!
116 - fleshyglassbits
Christopher,
That is what I like about you Brits - you guys really are the masters of diplomacy. No where on the planet is there a people who can so endearingly insult you, but somehow, simultaneously inspire a certain fondness. I used to play in old shcool punk and rock and roll bands,(retired from that now, thank you very much) and fleshyglassbits was a throw away bandname that I could never convince or con any of my bandmembers into actually using. However, I use it as a handle and in other ways, more out of spite than anything else. As far as your buddy Dr. Dreadful having to "suffer" in the good ol' U.S., he can always go back to the U.K. I hear it's a great place for illegal Immigration as well. I've toured your beautiful country on a few occassions ( but not since 2000), and I hope things haven't become as dreadful as what I've read. Truly a marvelous civilization - you English have, would hate to see your Island completely over run by Islam.
117 - Clavos
"It's not as simple as saying we stole it. Go visit the Alamo in San Antonio. There is a list of all the people who bravely fought for their rights. You will see that there were A LOT of Mexicans who fought with the Americans. They didn't want to be part of a corrupt government that still ruins Mexico today. They wanted their independece from Mexico. It wasn't simply whitey killing the minority, though the liberal socialists that have taken over our public school systems will tell you that."
I lived in San Antonio for a number of years, so I know the story well.
You neglected to mention that the defenders were NOT fighting to become part of the USA. They no more wanted to be American than Mexican. They were fighting to become (and did, for a few years) an independent republic.
In any case, the territory taken from Mexico involved much more than Texas, as you know. And it was taken by force, which, from the viewpoint of the Mexicans, amounts to stealing, and I think they're right.
Even the Gadsden Purchase was opposed by the Mexican people, and Santa Ana's acceptance of it is widely believed by them to be a result of bribes paid to him by the gringo government.
118 - REMF
Exceptional writing, Clavos. Almost perfect.
(MCH)
119 - Clavos
Thanks, emmy!
120 - Dr Dreadful
If I saw our country invaded by 20-30 million Western Europeans I would be just as pissed.
But your country was invaded by 20-30 million Europeans. They just happened to be you.
121 - Ray Ellis
In my absence, I've been called an elitist, a socialist, a neocon and a communist--and that was all in one comment (#108)!
I'm not even going to argue about one-sided statistics, since they mean nothing unless placed in the context of the larger picture. And I'm certainly not going to rely on stats from 1996.
Obviously, there are immigration issues in this country. What I object to is how "illegal immigrant" is somehow synonymous with "Mexican." That's where the racism comes in, and that attitude prevents any meaningful discussion.
122 - Dr Dreadful
And for the record, fleshy, I despise racism whatever form it takes. That includes taking the negative behaviors of a few and projecting them onto an entire population, or blaming one group of people for a perceived drop in standards that's more than likely due to a number of different factors. It's lazy, and while anger and xenophobia might make you feel better in the short term, it's a hollow outlook on life.
I am a legal immigrant to the US, and as such people often assume that I must be pissed about all the illegals because I made the effort to do things the right way. Well, no, because I stood in lines and sat in the INS office alongside the crowds of Latinos and saw the preferential treatment I got. These were hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, and the USA used to be a place which welcomed people who wanted to do that. What happened to that ideal?
We do quite often get people, for shady reasons of their own, using someone else's name or posting under multiple aliases - especially on topics such as immigration, which tends to attract those whose debating styles are... er... unconventional. In your case, the following things aroused my suspicions: (1) Your earlier posts had a URL, that one didn't. (2) Your spelling and punctuation was suddenly down the toilet. (3) The tone of the post was an unadulterated anti-immigrant rant, which seemed out of keeping with your earlier, reasoned debate with STM.
Clearly I was mistaken, and while I still find your views extremely unpleasant, I do extend my apology for appearing skeptical as to your credentials.
123 - Ray Ellis
Well said, Dr. D. As my wife still maintains her German citizenship, I'm well acquainted with the IRS workings you describe--and the veiled racism you describe, as well. In her case, she gets comments like "Aren't you glad to be living in a free country now?" Ignorance boggles the mind sometimes.
124 - Ray Ellis
oops--INS
125 - Dr Dreadful
The comments your wife gets are illustrative of the incredible ignorance many Americans have about the world at large. Somewhere in the smoky recesses of the neglected areas of the brain marked 'general knowledge' is some vague recollection that Germany was once upon a time under the auspices of a Mr Hitler, who wasn't a very nice chap. Apparently, there's no reason to suppose that things in German-land have improved much since then.
But perhaps that's a different discussion entirely...