Black Liberation Theology is likely to play a crucial part in the general election campaign, and it should.
It is very likely that Senator Obama will soon be the Democrat nominee for President, and that if he is elected Senator Clinton will go home to bake cookies and tend to her chores as Secretary of something or other. The choice is, therefore, probably between Senators Obama and McCain. According to Rupert Murdoch, the Democrats will win by a landslide. He may well be correct, unless Senator Obama manages the Clintonesque task of shooting himself in the foot while holding it firmly in his mouth.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - RJ Elliott
Does anyone else think comment #16 is overtly racist and inflammatory? (Although, coming from an apologist for Robert Mugabe, perhaps not all that surprising...)
27 - Ruvy
RJ,
As I've pointed out elsewhere, your country faces a terrible moral crisis, and most of you are running away from it, picking on dumb things like Black liberation theology instead of looking at the ugly face in the mirror.
One of the elements of the moral crisis your country faces is racism - not white racism, but racism, period. Obama is the appropriate scourge for you - a white man in black skin - a live version of the "black-faced" entertainers so common a century ago in America.
Granted his nomination has not been locked up yet, but nevertheless, the media in America, like the Praetorian Guard in Rome did, has the power to crown or un-throne emperors.
I don't like him for my own reasons. But also, for my own reasons, I think he is the best fellow you can elect, and if indeed he is the Democratic nominee, I will vote for him. Obama is also the best goyisher prince for us in Israel as well.
Is Zedd being racist? No, not really. She is telling it the way she sees it and not censoring her words. That's what I do, RJ.
28 - Cannonshop
Hmmm...
Well, Ruvy, I think your perspective isn't particularly pro-survival, considering where you are, and what you have for neighbours.
Seriously. National Suicide ain't cool, and I rather suspect that if god exists, he or she or it doesn't tip the dice except in close rolls.
Israel against the Arab world without SOME kind of external support isn't strategically viable in this era of good-enough military hardware spread across the entire globe, and that's what you get with Obama.
AS for the article itself: There were some good points made here-a man can be measured by both what he embraces, and what he opposes. Barack Obama attended Trinity United for over 20 years. For most of that time, the Pastor was Rev. Wright. It's worth it to know where Rev. Wright stands, what his theology IS, and how it relates to the rest of the country.
It's also worth knowing what Barack Obama thinks of those teachings, his motivations for attending if he did NOT believe in those teachings, and what THAT says about him as a man.
It provides the context that looking at his Legislative record can not, because he has virtually none to speak of. We can evaluate Hillary's record in the senate to get a grasp of what SHE might do, we can look at McCains' record, contrast it with his public relations stunts, and evaluate what HE is made of.
Barack Obama? No record. We have to evaluate him on other terms-like where he goes to church, how he spends his time, who his friends are, and such minutia.
To that end, it's rather important to see what kind of Theological ideals he had prior to running for president, what kind of friends he had before they became inconvenient, and what kind of man he is when he isn't trying to persuade, or you might say, when he isn't using his "Sunday Manners".
What churches a man attends and supports, what kind of personal advisors he has, who his friends are, and what he says when he isn't tailoring to a crowd are all rather important measures of the man himself. Considering that the Presidency carries that briefcase with the nukes in it, it's kind of important to know who you're giving the codes and keys to.
29 - Ruvy
Cannonshop,
Israel against the Arab world without SOME kind of external support isn't strategically viable in this era of good-enough military hardware spread across the entire globe, and that's what you get with Obama.
This is just one of several weaknesses in your comment. You tend to think in terms of what help we should seek against the Arab enemy without considering that there might be other enemies to counter.
The second thing you assume is that the reason that one supports one goyisher prince over another is for what favors and kindness he can dispense here. This too, is a weakness.
My preferences are not built on the conventional "what can we get from America" analysis so common to Jews who do not really believe in the faith that has sustained them for over three millennia.
Their loss of faith will be, if uncorrected, their death sentence.
So, why should I support Barack Hussein Obama? What benefit does a man surrounded with Israel and Jew-haters give me, as opposed to John McCain or Hillary Clinton?
Obama comes closest to enunciating the true foreign policy of the United States with respect to Israel.
McCain and Clinton are also surrounded with Israel and Jew-haters, but they will lie their heads off to us, making Itzik Israeli think that he really has a friend in the American administration. When in fact, he doesn't.
Or, in the alternative, they will surround the poison pill of national suicide with so much sugar of praise figuring that most American Jews will buy it. That is what Condaleezza Rice did in front of AIPAC a bit ago. Her bit about "Palestine" being an urgent priority did not get applause, by the way, but silence.
So, with Obama, I get something approximating the truth - that we Jews are alone in the world.
But I get something more. Itzik Israeli sees that the American régime pulling the strings here is truly a pack of Jew-haters - and decide to ditch the American puppets here - folks like Netanyahu, Livni, Barak. Who knows? Maybe we'll get a bonus, and Israelis will ditch European toadies like Beilin, Mazuz and Peres.
30 - Zedd
Clavos, Dave,
You've never worshiped with Black people have you?? You comments reflect that you have no clue about this huge segment of America. Dave you claim to be patriotic but you just don't KNOW your country all that well. That Priest preaches like a Black preacher. That to me was the ONLY astounding thing. He got the inflection, body language and rhythm of it all just right. As for his message, he is hitting things that we as a nation ignore. Hillary did not expect that this would happen. THAT is a fact. Hillary didn't expect that this would come from a Black man. THAT is a fact. Hillary behaves as if she is entitled to the throne. Many have stated that on these boards. This man says that the emotions that she had were not just passion about her mission but disappointment because of her predicament. While I can't agree with his assessment because i cant guess what Hillary was thinking about, we have to look at the larger issue which is why are we all stunned that a Black man will probably be President? Who are we at our core and why are we that?
Bottom line, this man says "We must be honest, to expose White entitlement and supremacy where ever it raises its head". Does that upset you? Do you find this notion frightening or dangerous?
31 - Zedd
RJ,
If it were anyone else, I would be surprised. You don't know what racism is. You believe that when a race is mentioned and the statement is not positive that THAT is racism. It's not. I realise that you won't understand what I am saying but am just posting in case someone else reads my response to you.
Stating that something that someone does or has done that is bad is not racism, especially when we all agree that that "thing" IS/WAS bad.
It's an IQ issue for you. I think were all on board with that, all races and all genders.
32 - Clavos
"You've never worshiped with Black people have you??"
I don't worship, anything or anyone, period.
"You comments reflect that you have no clue about this huge segment of America."
12% is not a "huge segment," Zedd, but that's not the point.
I have been friends with, worked with, and even lived with and fought a war alongside Black people most of my life, Zedd. I understand.
"That Priest preaches like a Black preacher"
I wasn't speaking of his style, Zedd. Style is unimportant; his content is what is disturbing. That priest, in that segment, was preaching it's OK to mock and deride others; it's OK to hate, and I doubt very much that very many Black preachers do that.
Is that what Black preachers preach?
33 - zingzing
again--what does obama have to do with black liberation theology? has he ever said anything that smacks of it? didn't he publicly (and painfully) resign from attending that church?
it's A CHURCH for god's sake. does any self-respecting democrat believe everything that is spoken in a christian church?
34 - Clavos
"it's A CHURCH for god's sake"
Aren't most of them?
35 - Dr Dreadful
And then there are all the rumors swirling around (from fairly credible sources) that a potentially-fatal "Whitey" video (from Michelle Obama's lips) is about to be released.
RJ, in your breathless eagerness to spread rumor still further, did you stop to note that your 'fairly credible source' is of the opinion that this video doesn't exist?
36 - Ruvy
Well, kids, get used to it. Obama is the nominee presumptive, and unless something untoward occurs to him, he'll be nominated later this summer.
It's that something untoward that keeps me interested. In the meantime, when they hold registration for us ex-pats later this month, I'll be going.
I expect my e-mails to be littered with all sorts of crap hustling McCain.
37 - Dan Miller
Zingzing,
I really don't know. Here is an article written back in 1995, when now candidate Obama was first entering politics. The article points out that he rejected both integration of Blacks into White society, and the ineffectual fiery rhetoric of some Black leaders. On the other hand, his primary associations seem to have been with rather fiery proponents (for example, the Reverend Messrs Pfleger and Wright) of the thesis that "whitey" is bad, that AIDs was created as a form of genocide, and that sort of thing.
Some people associate with people with whom they strongly disagree; I certainly enjoy doing so, but I don't on that account necessarily come to agree with them. I don't attend church, but if I did, I would probably not continue for twenty years to attend and support one where the long time pastor greatly offended my sense of decency.
Your question, what does Obama have to do with black liberation theology, is a good one. The thrust of the article is that the question is not only a reasonable and important one, but one which is fair game for discussion. It must be addressed during the general election. To my mind, Senator Obama has not answered the question yet. Maybe he will, and maybe he won't. I very much hope that he does.
Dan
38 - SoulBro
"Post-Wright, Hillary has won PA by almost 10 points, won WV by 40, won KY by 35, and won 99%-Hispanic PR by a surprising 35-point landslide...But through all this, the media has been saying that Hillary is finished, Obama is the certain nominee, and that anyone who disagrees is akin to a Ba'athist dead-ender...the "superdelegates" who seemingly handed Obama the nomination today could still change their minds."
So...as a Hillary supporter, what's your opinion of how she's enabled her husband's philandering all these years? I mean, if she won't even take a stand against adultery in her own marriage, what kind of leader of our country would she make?
39 - zingzing
"It [black liberation theology] must be addressed during the general election. To my mind, Senator Obama has not answered the question yet. Maybe he will, and maybe he won't. I very much hope that he does."
here's my idea of obama's connection to that church. he's a politician. a black politician. he HAS to go to church somewhere. he joined this church 20 years ago. a united states senator should be able to keep church and state separate. maybe he heard some rather awful things at the church. maybe he didn't. maybe he didn't pay that much attention in church. but he went to that church off and on for 20 years. he had friends there.
he didn't want to make his church an issue when he ran for congress. so he didn't. when it did become an issue, he didn't want to condemn his friends, but he condemned the hateful words that were being quoted and he said he didn't believe them.
then it became an issue again, and by this time, the attention was hurting the church, his friends, his family, and his campaign. so it was time to walk away from the church for the good of all involved.
he didn't do it lightly, because he was walking away from people he had known for 20 years. but he didn't believe that the church's teachings were worth defending (and he never did defend them). so he made his choice.
black liberation theology is just a red herring in this election.
40 - RJ Elliott
"a united states senator should be able to keep church and state separate."
So, you'd have no problem if, say, John McCain had attended a Christian Identity church for 20 years, wrote a book based upon a sermon he heard there, and had a close personal relationship with the head pastor, who praised David Duke and given him a "lifetime achievement" award?
Somehow, I doubt that. And I can assure you the MSM wouldn't dismiss such a thing.
Obama is also close pals with an unrepentant left-wing domestic terrorist names William Ayers. Oddly enough, this isn't mentioned much in the MSM. I suspect the coverage would be markedly different if, say, John McCain had been buddies with Tim McVeigh.
I cannot read Obama's mind. I cannot know his heart. But I do know that some of the people he has surrounded himself with over the years, some of the people who were closest to him, are out-and-out racists, and openly hate this country.
And he's getting a pass for it from the MSM because he's a left-wing Black Democrat. I think it's fair to say that a conservative White Republican would get ... dissimilar treatment, shall we say.
41 - Zedd
Clavos,
"was preaching it's OK to mock and deride others"
That is my point, you don't understand the style of preaching. There is much more nuance in what he was doing. If you understood the WAY that a lot of Black preachers preach you wouldn't utter that comment. It is naive and out of place. You sound like a White guy (I know you like that... but it's not in a good way even though I adore you). Pinch!!
It's like what you experience when some goofy White guy walks up to you trying to speak Spanglish (pronouncing EVERYTHING wrong) and they are all loud and nodding and grinning like you are retarded. It's just off and you want to tell them, "just stop, your embarrassing yourself". Well, same thing. You don't know what you are talking about. It wasn't what you think it was. I can't explain. Perhaps there is a site or article on "hooping" (preaching style in some Black churches). It is an amazing thing to behold. It may shed some light a little bit, not sure.
42 - Jordan Richardson
Close pals?
As in they met occasionally at Woods Fund of Chicago dinners and lived in the same neighbourhood? Nothing like a little muckraking to amp things up, huh RJ?
I suppose it also doesn't matter that Ayers is on record as improving Chicago schools or that he's essentially renounced what he did in the 70s.
43 - RJ Elliott
"Is that what Black preachers preach?"
Clavos,
Personal anecdote warning: My father works for a Black guy who is a devout Christian. And he has said that he is going to vote for McCain in November, and that one of the reasons for that is the Rev. Wright debacle. According to him, that is not how most Blacks worship, and it deeply offended him.
Now, I don't know if he's representative of the "Black community" or not (probably not, since he's said he's going to vote for McCain). But I think it's safe to say that not all Black churches are like Obama's. Probably not even most.
But let's pretend for a moment that all Black churches are like Obama's, and that all Black preachers are like Rev. Wright. That wouldn't at all excuse the venom, the hate, and the lunatic conspiracy theorizing that goes on there. Divisive rhetoric and outright lies are divisive rhetoric and outright lies, no matter how commonplace and "typical" they might be.
44 - RJ Elliott
Jordan:
He has not "renounced" his actions:
'I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.'' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago. The long curly locks in his Wanted poster are shorn, though he wears earrings. He still has tattooed on his neck the rainbow-and-lightning Weathermen logo that appeared on letters taking responsibility for bombings. And he still has the ebullient, ingratiating manner, the apparently intense interest in other people, that made him a charismatic figure in the radical student movement.
Now he has written a book, ''Fugitive Days'' (Beacon Press, September). Mr. Ayers, who is 56, calls it a memoir, somewhat coyly perhaps, since he also says some of it is fiction. He writes that he participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, of the Capitol building in 1971, the Pentagon in 1972.
Oh, and they didn't just "meet occasionally at Woods Fund dinners." Obama hung out at the guy's house and received campaign donations from him.
And I don't know (or care) if he's been involved in "improving schools" or not. What does that have to do with the fact that he's a terrorist bomber? Should we be willing to forgive Osama bin Laden if he agrees to volunteer his time tutoring kids at an inner-city school?
45 - Jordan Richardson
Nice one, RJ. I could cull the depths for stories from September 11, 2001 as well, but I'd rather be...I dunno, current.
I find it interesting in your attempts to build the characterization you want that you neglect to include reference to the "Letter to the Editor" Ayers supplied four days after the original article from the New York Times. Part of the letter read:
"This is not a question of being misunderstood or 'taken out of context', but of deliberate distortion."
In subsequent years, Ayers has clarified what he meant about saying "we didn't do enough." He has said on his personal blog that he meant that he (we) didn't do enough to stop the Vietnam War.
Also, in the same article from Slate you linked to, it states that the Clintons pardoned Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg, two members of WU, during Bill's term in office.
Of course, we can contrast that with one dinner at the guy's house and a $200 donation and drum up all sorts of lame McVeigh comparisons if you'd like. I still find it apples and oranges.
46 - RJ Elliott
Ayers is still a commie:
"I organize and I participate in the never-ending effort to build a powerful movement for peace and social justice"
"my book Fugitive Days, a memoir of the revolutionary action and militant resistance to the Viet Nam War"the years of miracle and wonder"
"Regrets. I’m often quoted saying that I have “no regrets.” This is not true. For anyone paying attention"and I try to stay wide-awake to the world around me all/ways"life brings misgivings, doubts, uncertainty, loss, regret. I’m sometimes asked if I regret anything I did to oppose the war in Viet Nam, and I say “no, I don’t regret anything I did to try to stop the slaughter of millions of human beings by my own government.” Sometimes I add, “I don’t think I did enough.”"
"A bombing in a café in Israel is terrorism, and an Israeli assault on a neighborhood in Gaza is terrorism; the September 11 attacks were acts of terrorism, and the U.S. bombings in Viet Nam for a decade were acts of terrorism."
"I’ve never advocated terrorism, never participated in it, never defended it. The U.S. government, by contrast, does it routinely and defends the use of it in its own cause consistently."
"Capitalism played its role historically and is exhausted as a force for progress: built on exploitation, theft, conquest, war, and racism, capitalism and imperialism must be defeated and a world revolution"a revolution against war and racism and materialism, a revolution based on human solidarity and love, cooperation and the common good"must win."
This is the kind of moonbat Obama hangs out with.
47 - Jordan Richardson
Yeah, he sure is offbase....
48 - Zedd
Dan,
"fiery proponents (for example, the Reverend Messrs Pfleger and Wright) of the thesis that "whitey" is bad."
I am shocked at you. These men say racists and racism is bad and you take it personally? WOW!
There is no thesis which says that "whitey" (60's term) is bad. Your response and take support EVERYTHING that they are saying. You cant accept the notion that Black people don't like what is happening and has happened to them. You take it personally that they dare say OUCH! You respond as one who would hope that race matters are barely noticeable. They are THE cancer which ales this country. The race issue is in our foundation. The denial, is part of our basic fabric. It is what America is. Just because you don't think about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because we know not to speak of it for fear of economic and professional reprisal doesn't mean that it does not lay there and that we don't think about it or talk about it.
Fair warning, I am rant mode. I am right but ranting none the less.. (see I feel apologetic for being so open about race matters)
What is sad is that Whites (in the media) choose who they want to speak for us, so the message and the issues are distorted. However, they go back to those "leaders" to get answers about the distortion and the message gets more distorted, then they comment exclusively about what the issues are and the message gets even more off. In the end the answer is always, there is no REAL problem. Guess who that serves? Could rant further but I'll save it.
49 - Clavos
Zedd #41:
I've often thought you never really read the comments to which you respond; now, I'm convinced of it.
I said, in #32:
"I wasn't speaking of his style, Zedd. Style is unimportant; his content is what is disturbing." (emphasis added)
Which you apparently didn't even see, or worse, totally ignored, for you answered (in #41):
"That is my point, you don't understand the style of preaching."
Trying to have a reasonable discussion with you is akin to attempting to punch one's way through a fog bank. In the words of Gertrude Stein, "There is no there there."
50 - Zedd
Clavos,
Pay close attention, I am saying that the content IS the style. Confusing? What he said doesn't mean what you think it means because of your cultural unfamiliarity. There is nuance that changes the tone of the speech. Also, while it is a definite indictment, it is not a mocking per say. I see it as an admonishment of the larger issue, White privilege.
51 - Clavos
"What he said doesn't mean what you think it means because of your cultural unfamiliarity. There is nuance that changes the tone of the speech."
Crap.
I know what I heard. What I heard coming out of that Roman Catholic priest's mouth was totally counter to everything the Church teaches. The man should be defrocked.
And while I'm at it, that whole "you can't know what Blacks feel/think/are saying because you're not Black" shtick of yours is crap, too.
I'm done, Zedd.
As I said, there's no point in trying to discuss rationally with you.
52 - Zedd
Clavos,
OR you can show respect to a people, THEIR humanity and their culture and demonstrate SOME curiosity (a sign of intelligence). Your insistence on defining the situation on your own experiences shows that you don't respect Black culture and you see it as irrelevant, which is precisely what I said initially.
For an individual who pretends to be curios about other cultures, yacking on about Australia, asking a multitude of QUESTIONS yet expressing NO interest in people (a large population which surpasses that of Australia) that are the founding groups of this nation, who demonstrate the most astounding resilience, who ARE the embodiment of the American dream. SHAME.
53 - bliffle
Wright and Pfleger demonstrate what happens when mere humans start to believe they are gods, or at least that they speak for gods. Next thing you know we'll elect one president (oh, we already did that). Their vanity and ego runs amuck and thay cause damage to everyone. they answer to nothing and noone because they believe they already know their gods will.
Maybe the revulsion this will produce among the general unprivileged population will put an end to religion, or at least diminish it in politics, relegating superstitious belief to a personal sin, best kept out of sight and not admitted to, like reading porn magazines.
54 - zingzing
"So, you'd have no problem if, say, John McCain had attended a Christian Identity church for 20 years, wrote a book based upon a sermon he heard there, and had a close personal relationship with the head pastor, who praised David Duke and given him a "lifetime achievement" award?"
well, yeah, if that happened, mccain would be crucified. now, what does that have to do with obama? you're stretching pretty far with all this. christian identity is far worse than what goes on at trinity, which is just small potatoes anyway. the book obama wrote has nothing to do with racism. wright is not david duke (or wasn't always).
"Somehow, I doubt that. And I can assure you the MSM wouldn't dismiss such a thing."
ha. so this is the msm dismissing something? jeez. never heard a thing about it.
"Obama is also close pals with an unrepentant left-wing domestic terrorist names William Ayers. Oddly enough, this isn't mentioned much in the MSM."
yes it is. what do you read? it's all over the place. and ayers is an individual with good intentions, but who had some rather questionable ideas about how to get things done WHEN HE WAS A KID.
"I suspect the coverage would be markedly different if, say, John McCain had been buddies with Tim McVeigh."
jesus. ayers is not mcveigh. and wright is not duke. streeeeeeettttttch.
"I cannot read Obama's mind. I cannot know his heart. But I do know that some of the people he has surrounded himself with over the years, some of the people who were closest to him, are out-and-out racists, and openly hate this country."
maybe. but he's not and he doesn't. but, you know, there's nothing wrong with talking to those kind of people. he's going to have to do that when he's president. (look what happens when we don't talk to those who hate us.) and no, i'm not saying that mccain could get away with joining the kkk in the name of diplomacy. but ayers and wright does not equal some sort of america-hating, racist agenda.
"And he's getting a pass for it from the MSM because he's a left-wing Black Democrat."
total pass, yep. no one is talking about this stuff. no one. nowhere. never heard of it.
"I think it's fair to say that a conservative White Republican would get ... dissimilar treatment, shall we say."
actually, didn't mccain get endorsed by some raving loony homophobe? i can barely remember. was briefly mentioned somewhere... but then it kind of disappeared...
55 - Zedd
Biffle,
Can you explain what you mean by:
" Wright and Pfleger demonstrate what happens when mere humans start to believe they are gods, or at least that they speak for gods."
I think ministers "speak for God". It's in their job description. :o)
Also, when is the last time you went to church?
Lastly, are you African American?
56 - zingzing
zedd, is pfleger?
(and i don't buy your idea that wright is saying something different than the words that come out of his mouth because he is black. or that white people don't understand the nuances. if he's saying something different than the words that come out of his mouth, he should know that he comes off as a racist. which kind of sucks for him, if he's not. it sucks for him even if he is a racist, i suppose... either way, if he's saying something else, he should just say that. it would make his life easier, i assure you.)
57 - Clavos
What zingzing said.
58 - Zedd
"He now acts and talks just like a black preacher..One might compare him to Al Sharpton because he is always marching on city hall with one agenda or another ."
Or you could say he practices what he preaches. I supposed if Mr. Smith actually went to Washington we would call him a rebel rouser and trouble maker.
Also, I'm assuming you KNOW Black preachers.
59 - Dan Miller
Zingzing,
Amen. If the Reverend Messrs Wright, Pfleger et al are interested in being understood correctly beyond their designated audiences, perhaps they might consider using words and phrases we can all understand correctly. Not an easy task, perhaps, but one worth undertaking; but only if they are interested, of course. Perhaps someone will volunteer to provide simultaneous translations?
What they should not do, however, is to mimic politicians and say different and inconsistent things, depending on the demographics of the current audience. Zedd notes, ministers "speak for God." If there is a God, presumably He (or She or It) offers the same messages to all without regard to race; or at least does not offer very inconsistent messages on that basis.
If we (the non-designated audience) bother to listen but can't understand what these folks are saying, how can we avoid putting a skewed interpretation on it? I should think that a speaker who wants to be understood has an obligation to make that easy, not impossible.
Dan
60 - Clavos
Dan,
We all speak English.
One can inflect nuance and subtlety into one's speech, but we're not talking different languages here. For anyone who is reasonably fluent and literate in English, there are a limited number of meanings (in some cases only one) for all the words in the language.
To imply that there are hidden cultural meanings in the speech of different ethnic groups sharing a common language and culture is simply a form of obfuscation and an attempt to invalidate all POVs other than those of the group, which is both logically and epistemologically fallacious.
Simultaneous translation is not necessary.
61 - Zedd
Zing,
If in 1960 a holocaust victim in the middle of discussing things that we as humans do that are deplorable said he hates Germany and the German mindset , we would certainly not say that the holocaust victim is being divisive or even hateful for saying so, especially if he is saying it to a crowd of holocaust survivors in Yiddish.
If an American said the same thing to a crowd of Americans at an "American event", we would wonder what his problem was.
62 - Zedd
Dan,
Those speakers weren't speaking to you.
If you want to understand ask questions.
63 - Dan Miller
Zedd,
Thanks again for helping to make the point I tried to make in the article: We need to ask questions, and Senator Obama's take on Black liberation theology should be at least a minor focus during the general election campaign. Maybe there will be some answers; maybe there won't be. Maybe the answers will be satisfying; maybe they won't be. But the questions are appropriate.
Dan
64 - zingzing
but zedd, it's not 1960. even extending your metaphor out to include... current realities, it doesn't work.
now, i don't take that much offense to what wright has to say. some of it is rather questionable, and focusing so much on race as the entirety of america's problems is... kind of stupid.
i understand the weight of all those centuries of racism. and i know that it wasn't that long ago that america started to emerge as a more pluralistic nation.
but, dammit, we've made so many huge steps towards actual equality--think about it, a black man is the favorite to win the presidency--that focusing so much attention on race is a step backwards. obama's campaign and shot at the white house is one of the hugest steps forward we have left to take and wright's crazed mumblings are becoming the biggest hurdle in the way of that actually being accomplished!
i don't care if wright hates this country or despises white people. shit, sometimes this country and white people deserve it. but, for fuck's sake! if he ruins obama's chances with this crap, i'll be mighty pissed at him.
and the right-wingers will fall down laughing at the irony of it all.
65 - Dan Miller
Clav,
Well, maybe. Ezra Pound used the English language, but I found him very difficult to read and therefore to understand. Ditto e.e. cummings. I thought I understood Robert Frost, but a professor of English who tried to teach me in freshman year managed to convince me that I didn't. It took several years for me to decide that he (the professor, not Frost) was full of beans.
I still don't understand Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time, even though he wrote it in English and even though his concepts are easily understood, at least by him.
As to Zedd's comment #62, perhaps if we ask the right questions, the meanings will become crystal clear and we can all have a common understanding of Black liberation theology.
Hope springs eternal in the human breast. I shall omit to mention the next line from the poem.
Dan
66 - Dan Miller
One more point(?). Then I will stop. I promise. Until the next time.
In Yes Prime Minister by Lynn and Jay, PM Hacker has to decide between candidates to be proposed to the Queen for appointment as Bishop of the Diocese of Bury St. Edmunds. Hacker had overridden the commission which recommended two potential candidates, because one was a "modernist," code word for Atheist. Hacker deemed the other candidate unsuitable as well. Then two other candidates were presented. Hacker was told that one of them was against oppression and persecution in Africa. Hacker thought was fine; so was England. It was further explained that the gentleman "is against it when practiced by black governments as well as white ones." Hacker saw the point immediately: "So he's a racist!"
So there are code words, even in plain English; we just need to break the codes, maybe.
Dan
67 - Dr Dreadful
Dan, Clav,
It's not just Ezra Pound, e e cummings and Jonathan Lynn.
Our very own Zedd uses words that are English, but strung together in such a way that often makes very little sense in terms of the English language, except presumably to herself.
68 - Clavos
"Ezra Pound used the English language, but I found him very difficult to read and therefore to understand. Ditto e.e. cummings. I thought I understood Robert Frost, but a professor of English who tried to teach me in freshman year managed to convince me that I didn't...I still don't understand Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time, even though he wrote it in English and even though his concepts are easily understood, at least by him."
Not quite the same. Zedd is claiming that we as whites, don't understand what Black people (one of whom is white) are saying because we're not Black.
Your examples are all (with the exception of Hawking) poets writing about their personal visions of (mostly) abstract concepts; theirs is an art, open to a myriad of interpretations, depending on the viewpoint of the beholder, and even the poet himself will tell you there is no one, "correct" interpretation of his art. What Zedd is saying is that the only VALID interpretation of what those two "men of God" were saying is the Black one, which can only be gained by being Black (though, again, one of them is white). I focused (deliberately) on one only: Pfleger, because he's white, and because he's (nominally) Catholic; two categories of humans in which I'm qualified. As a white man and an ex Catholic, thoroughly indoctrinated in that faith, I clearly understood what he, at least, was saying.
As I mentioned before, what Pfleger said in that speech was flagrantly in violation of Catholic dogma, and was vile and demeaning, not only to Clinton, but to his Church and himself, as well.
Your point about Frost supports my contention: in point of fact, Frost is a plain-spoken, almost transparent poet, who speaks clearly and unequivocally to all who trouble to read him. Your professor was doing exactly what Zedd is attempting here, creating an artificial "insider" milieu from which you were excluded and your understanding of Frost was invalidated.
Hawking is a physicist, and speaks of physical concepts which are real, not some mystical semi-private collective group experience. I don't see a parallel there.
69 - Dan Miller
Clav,
Sometimes, when the discussion gets too deep and perhaps mystical for me to understand, I become just a tad sarcastic. Beats crying.
Dan
70 - Dan Miller
Doc,
In line with your thought, I frequently appeared before a judge who was fond of commenting, "Mr. xxx, I understand every one of the words you just used. I use them frequently myself; but when you put them together in that fashion, I have no idea what you mean"
Dan
71 - Clavos
Dan,
Point taken. I'm often to intense to see the sarcasm, especially on a monitor.
My bad.
72 - Clavos
Doc,
Amen.
Dan,
Were yo that much of a miscreant you had to appear "often" before the same judge? :>)
73 - Clavos
I need new glasses. Two typos in as mant comments!!
74 - Clavos
Aaaaarrrggghhhh!!!
75 - Dr Dreadful
Yet another typo in your last, I'm afraid, Clav. It's "Aaaaarrrrggghhhh".