Pro-lifers have a "final solution" for anyone having extramarital sex--just say no!
In addition to the usual crimes against humanity, yesterday I saw at least two cases on the local news of horrendous torture, sexual abuse, and murder of innocent children at the hands of their own families. Is this the kind of blood the pro-lifers really want on their hands?…
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426 - Elvira Black
Bennett and KYS:
To quote Katie (comment 422 above):
"I LOVE YOU! I agree with you enough said!"
Heh heh....
427 - Mark
Elvira, what country do you live in? You seem so outraged by what Roseanne said about wanting to prevent people from harming others by having laws in place that punish people making bad choices. To this you responded that she must be living in Saudi Arabia, which seemed strange to me because here in the US we have hundreds of laws which tell you which choices you can and cant make. Why is it that you think only the middle east has a state where the people are told what they can and cannot do.
As far as the "them" go, I was talking about everyone on this forum in the pro-choice camp, it would have taken too long to list them all and I didnt want to say heathens because some of those people are actually Christian. BTW the Inquisition, which is what the world has come to use as a reference point any time someone stands up for their religious beliefs, has been totally misrepresented in the common mindset. During the Inquisition, only those who were baptized members of the Catholic church were brought in, and they were only brought in if they were actively teaching heresy. The numbers have been blown totally out of proportion as well, during the entirety of the Inquisition only a few hundred, less than five hundred people were actually executed. Those that were executed were given YEARS to come around and to stop teaching in opposition to the Church. They were only executed because it is better to protect the many from being led into sin by eliminating one. But they were given every opportunity to recant. I love how pissed off this is going to make you. You dont scare me....you make me sad.
428 - Mark
Why dont people ever reference the Muslims who swept across northern africa and even pushed east and into Europe converting truely by the sword who killed literally hundreds of thousands of people. I'm tired of people only identifying Catholics as being the only religion to use execution to protect the integrity of their beliefs. However, while in Catholicism it was a sad period of religious corruption, in the Muslim religion it is one of the central tenets of their religon.
429 - Elvira Black
Mark:
Why is it that 20-something virgins (HOT or not) and priests (celibate or not) think they know enough about the sex act and what it entails to tell the rest of the world how, why, when and if to engage in it?
" I didnt want to say heathens because some of those people are actually Christian."
AHA! Gotcha! Well, I'm a heathen then I guess--being a Jew and all. Do you wanna see my horns too?
"Why dont people ever reference the Muslims..."
Who do you think I was referring to when I mentioned Saudi Arabia?
"You seem so outraged by what Roseanne said about wanting to prevent people from harming others by having laws in place that punish people making bad choices."
So sex is a "crime" for which people must be "punished" for their "bad choices"--by your rules at least? Ever hear of separation of church and state? If you're talking abortion , that's at least debatable--if Roe v. Wade is overturned then we're talking actual law.
I'd like to know specifically what kind of punishment you have in mind and for what offenses--having sex outside of wedlock? If so, how would you propose to punish these people? Can you spell fascism?
"BTW the Inquisition, which is what the world has come to use as a reference point any time someone stands up for their religious beliefs, has been totally misrepresented in the common mindset. During the Inquisition, only those who were baptized members of the Catholic church were brought in, and they were only brought in if they were actively teaching heresy."
Methinks you are rewriting history, and even if you're not, there's plenty of other examples of religious terrorism by Christians. The Crusades, the pogroms in Eastern Europe, etc etc. etc etc etc........
As a Jew, I do not tell others how to worship. However, I am beset by "Christians" of all stripes who want to tell me that they know the light and the way. Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews for Jesus, people banging on my boyfriend's door as if the apartment is on fire to "talk about the bible" with me, and on and on and on. It's a total, total turnoff, but we do have free speech in this country, thank goodness. But make no mistake: this is not a "Christian" country, despite the fact that the majority of its citizens may be Christian (and there are myriad different branches, most of whom do not see eye to eye on all matters of faith). Exactly what would you propose be done with a Jewgirl heathen such as me?
"You dont scare me....you make me sad."
You not only scare me and make me sad, but you make me mad as hell to boot.
As far as rules, I like the Golden Rule, myself. Covers a lot of ground.
Oh Ruvy in Jerusalem, where are you when I need you?
430 - Elvira Black
Mark:
Do you have any idea how maniacal you sound when you try to get all "medieval" on my Jewish ass?
431 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Elvira, I may disappoint you, just a bit.
Roseanne Sullivan has taken up many of my cudgels - and Bennett has given a pointed response to them. I'll leave it there.
Mark is right about the Inquisition. Baptized Catholics were brought before it to be purified - and to be tortured to rat on others who were not practicing according to the politically or religiously corrrect mantras of the day in Spain, Italy, Mexico, Brasil, and everywhere else that the Catholic church had official status.
What Mark omits is that the people brought before the Inquisition were Jews who were forcibly baptized. Slick, eh? Then there are all those expuslions by Christian rulers of Jews after squeezing every last mark or louis d'or out of them. Mark doesn't mention that, though you can bet that the boys with the cassocks were pressuring the princes and kings to do the expelling and supplying them with data so as to make the exulsions as painful and as hurtful as possible.
The expulsions of Jews from England, Spain and France all were timed to take place on one day - Tish'á b'Av, the day the Temple had been destroyed in Jerusalem. Do you think this was coincidental? I have some beautiful acres of Arizona seacoast to sell you if you do.
By contrast, the Moslems were much less brutal and genocidal - for a long time, anyway. But in the end, when their own empires were swallowing their own vomit, they were as bad as the Christians.
Having lived with Christians hustling their religions down everybody's throat and having learned the assorted ways of giving all these fools the middle finger they deserved, I fully understand how you feel.
But Elvira, you need to realize that we Jews have our own task - to teach the Seven Commandments of Noah. And we've been slacking off on the job for two millennia.
Christianity and Islam in particular, have mostly been interim solutions until we Jews get our own act together to do what OUR job is.
Something for you to ponder.
432 - Mark
When did we stop talking about abortion? thats why ive been saying you shouldnt kill people all this time. i dont care if you have sex, get an STD, die and rot in hell. Sorry to disappoint.
433 - KYS
Mark,
On another thread you seem to care deeply about “genital herpes, gonorrhea, AIDS, prostitution, pedophilia, pornography, etc.”
I submit that education is the best weapon against unwanted pregnancy and everything else you've mentioned. NOT an abstinence-only agenda.
434 - Elvira Black
Ruvy:
Thank you! I can wholeheartedly agree with nearly all that you said. As far as the mention of teaching the Seven Commandments of Noah--I recall reading a piece you wrote which talked about this, but I need to re-read and/or get more info.
Offhand, it sounded like it might be prosteletyzing to other faiths, which as I said rubs me the wrong way. The only public instances I've ever encountered of Jews trying to actively bring others to the fold is when they approach people around Purim, ask if they're Jewish, and invite them into their vans to pray. But that's just reaching out to their own who have, in their eyes at least, fallen astray.
Thanks again, Ruvy!
435 - Elvira Black
KYS:
Somehow it doesn't exactly shock me to learn that Mark has visited other forums spreading his heartfelt message of tolerance and goodwill far and wide. Good one.
Mark:
"When did we stop talking about abortion? thats why ive been saying you shouldnt kill people all this time."
You have GOT to be kidding. Your own words in the earlier comments you've left--and your frenzied cheerleading of Roseanne and her harsh yet ill defined brand of religious frontier justice--remain here, alive and well, to mock you.
"i dont care if you have sex, get an STD, die and rot in hell. Sorry to disappoint."
Of course you don't care, now that you know I'm Jewish. After all, I'm doomed to rot in hell anyway, aren't I now?
Disappoint? Sicken and disgust is more like it.
Buh bye now. Don't let the comment box hit you in the ass on the way off my post--which is entitled, BTW, "Pro-life or anti-sex?" and not "pro-life or pro-choice?" for good reason.
436 - KYS
Elvira,
LOL! Silly commenters, they think they won't be seen trying to change their spots on other threads!
437 - Mark
Yeah, KYS you need to read words more carefully and sound them out. take your time. c'mon, you can do this. I never said anything about STDs in that other thread, it was some guy named Howard. H-O-W-A-R-D. I know both our names have an A and an R right next to each other, but this is why sight reading is such a dangerous thing for our society to encourage. Hooked on Phonics worked for me.
438 - KYS
Mark,
You are absolutely right, and I owe you an apology! Thanks for the correction.
However, feel free to stuff the sarcasm.
;)
439 - Scott^Pro-Life4-Ever
Mark, in 353 you said it PERFECTLY!!!
I want to add though, that the reason we call ourselves "Pro-Life" is because we believe that abortion is murder, and murder is wrong. I know that that sounds simple to some and to some it sounds confusing. The reason is because we continue to try and make arguments on how abortion is murder, but those people who are not Christians don't truly see the reason why. I will clearly say that without Christ, you will not see the light and the truth. THIS is because otherwise someone could make the argument that Murder is okay. There has will clearly one-day be a large liberal group of people that are anti-christian supporters*(maybe they already exist) and believe that murder and rape and lying and sex outside of marriage is okay. BUT that is where they will go wrong. The reason abortion was illegal at one time is because Christ was in America and Was America. Now we want to take "God" out of our schools, continue to keep him out of Government policy and look where we are going. I think it is possible for someone to say they don't believe in abortion and be a non-christian, but I don't believe they would have any valid whole-hearted argument to back it up if they do not have Christ in their heart.
440 - Scott^Pro-Life4-Ever
Mark AGAIN, Wonderful argument and perfectly stated in #362. I enjoy that fact that your statements are so true and factual. They further encourage my quest to have abortion illegalized as do many other good Christians. I just wanted to say again to all those people who "think" that Pro-lifers are against any choice in the personal matters. The choice is and ALWAYS will be yours in everything you do in life. We are not against the right to choose, we are just against the legal option that doing so has no repercussions. As stated by Mark before, you can kill somoene if you choose to do so, but you will go to jail, and possibly even have a death sentence. That's what we are advocating; putting the law in its place.
441 - Scott^Pro-Life4-Ever
Redtard, #363 is a very good argument again showing how the government already puts the man who took part in creating that baby in his place and makes him take responsibility for his actions. NOW we need to do the same for the women who decide to have sex outside of marriage and tell her it is illegal to have an abortion, so the only reasonable option is to have the child and deal with her actions appropriately by upbringing her child or by putting her baby up for adoption if she or the father or one of her family members cannot properly take care of the baby.
442 - KYS
Scott,
The facts of conception stand within and without the teachings of the bible. So, what is your view of contriception?
443 - Roseanne Sullivan
Is this thread dead? I've been tied up.
Mark and others, thanks for seeing my points.
The laws against doing things that harm yourself and others and your society are those of the ten commandments and the Bible.
Our society has lost trust in God's loving care for them, and many have elevated selfishness to a new law.
Jesus didn't have to preach against fornication (any kind of sex outside of marriage) because it was clearly understood that it was an abomination.
I have to go to work, so I can't elaborate much, but I want to give you a quote from EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network)'s 25th anniversary celebration in San Francisco on Jan. 28 and 29. A priest who identified himself as a member of the JP II (John Paul II) generation gave a great talk. He said that the JP II generation has followed orthodox Catholic teachings because they have seen the effects of the sexual revolution (actually sexual deformation) of our society. He called it "The A bomb that hit the family."
I having been planning for years to write a book called "The Casaulties of the Sexual Revolution." I may still do it.
Elvira, I feel badly for you that you had to go through the horrible rite of initiation of being used by men in college who were hiding behind the jargon of "not sharing your idea of commitment." I had the same experience, like millions of other women.
Just think that there once was a time when society protected women from that kind of exploitation, instead of encouraging them to seek it out. Hugh Hefner would approve.
It is good that you had a 20 year relationship. Too bad it wasnt' an actual marriage with all that implies. And too bad you were not allowed to fully experience all of your sexual nature by being allowed to let the sex act bear its natural fruit.
Sure people had sex outside of marriage, but they were the lawbreakers not the average person. To my mind, if you legalize something you normalize it. For example, if we ever legalize pot smoking, we will have pot cafes as they do in Amsterdam. Some with heroin, and heroin addiction will become the norm.
Cohabitation (living together without marriage), even sharing a hotel room with a member of the opposite sex if you weren't married used to be illegal. Interfering with the natural outcome of the union between man and woman with contraception was also seen as the evil that it really is. These "choices" harm people.
444 - Danny
I'm a mild mentally retarded, learning disabled, epilepsy, diabetes. i beleive some people with certain disabilities should get sterilized because since i'm mentally retarded i went a got a vasectomy because i'm not capable of raising children. there r a lot of people with disabilities that can't even take care of themselves. i can hardly take care of myself now and i am 50 year's old.
445 - oen
#363 is a very good argument again showing how the government already puts the man who took part in creating that baby in his place and makes him take responsibility for his actions. NOW we need to do the same for the women who decide to have sex outside of marriage and tell her it is illegal to have an abortion, so the only reasonable option is to have the child and deal with her actions appropriately by upbringing her child or by putting her baby up for adoption if she or the father or one of her family members cannot properly take care of the baby.
446 - Lori
I see no problem in peopl getting surgeries as birth control. I think though that abortion should be outlawed!!
447 - padric price
I would just like to say that you do "pro-lifers" a disservice by grouping us all together with the religious fanatics. I am both avidly pro-life and avidly atheist. I agree with you about how ridiculous it is when Catholics say we should all just avoid sex outside marriage. It is their attempt to force their superstitious beliefs down the thoughts of the whole country. I think Catholics are foolish to condemn both contraception and abortion. My pro-life position prompts me to be very supportive of contraception. It is common sense, no pregnancy no abortion. Although I am not religious I do believe that people should be a accountable for their mistakes. If, In a time when contraception is both legal and available, you foolishly choose to have unsafe sex, you need to accept responsibility for it. Making a mistake does not give you the right to murder.